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[Rule Change] Slider Velocity multipliers usage.
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support~Satellite wrote:
Fear wrote:
supportsupport~scanter wrote:
support.
support, limiting it doesn't make much sense
Kodora
I already linked example for approved map with x0.13 slider where it works wellBeatofIke wrote:
I honestly found 0.25x to 5x slider multiplier reasonable in general. I think going under 0.25x and over 5x would be overdoing it imo.
Usually very long slow sliders have a lot of sliderticks what helps survive a lot (look at lesjuh's approved map with x0.13 and x0.20 slider) Extremely long unneeded sliders will be just modded out.BeatofIke wrote:
I'm still in doubt with the lower slider velocity part because of the drain rate (and when playing with HR and higher OD), as you could be performing well during gameplay only to fail at the drain section.
Just same limit as in o!m editor would be enough imo.Wishy wrote:
Changing the limit from the actual one to x0.00000000001 to x99999999999999999999999 would be nice. Not like you will get any map ranked with x999999999 SV.
rrtyui for best 5.0x 2013rrtyui wrote:
support (I have no votes
support using my one vote from a few years ago 0.0
Please don't post "support" replies. I have disabled the ability to do this.
As for changing these limitations: I see no reason to do this in the editor. If you really feel the need, then edit the osu! file. The current limitations are fine.
As for changing these limitations: I see no reason to do this in the editor. If you really feel the need, then edit the osu! file. The current limitations are fine.
How to express that you're supporting the request then if you don't have stars?peppy wrote:
Please don't post "support" replies. I have disabled the ability to do this.
people are allowed to post they do not support this, so they should also be allowed to post that they do.
for that matter, I fully support this. As seen in some maps, slow or high velocity sliders can work insanely well and flow with the music. They can build up suspense or calm the player down. They are a mapping technique that should not be prohibited, just like any other. Keep in mind that sliderticks can be used to make them readable, and if they really are not, modders and BAT will point them out.
@peppy's edit: editing the .osu file is possible, but is against current ranking criteria. Therefore, sliders changed that was are UNRANKABLE at the moment. We either need to change that rule or the editor's possibilities
That's how you support properlyZarerion wrote:
I fully support this. As seen in some maps, slow or high velocity sliders can work insanely well and flow with the music. They can build up suspense or calm the player down. They are a mapping technique that should not be prohibited, just like any other. Keep in mind that sliderticks can be used to make them readable, and if they really are not, modders and BAT will point them out.
supportThat's how you not I guess?
Kodora
But editing osu! files is unrankable, isnt it?peppy wrote:
As for changing these limitations: I see no reason to do this in the editor. If you really feel the need, then edit the osu! file. The current limitations are fine.
Its requested because it can be done well & playable avoiding current limitaion (i gived some maps for example).Why it should be unrankable if it can be done well & creative?
i don't really like this request. i don't see a need for a 5x section. why would you even need that?
and before you say something vague like variety, i'd like examples of this being used well
and before you say something vague like variety, i'd like examples of this being used well
Kodora
deadbeat wrote:
and before you say something vague like variety, i'd like examples of this being used well
Those maps are not extremely old, and playability of them was confirmed by at least 3 BATs. I guess a lot of players can agree that it plays well too.Kodora wrote:
2)We already have approved maps what uses different SV multiplier.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/98451 - this map uses x0.13 and x0.20 sliders (00:12:303 (4) - and 10:44:207 (1) - ). They plays well, fits the music and works enough intuitive
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/92051 - this map uses x2.40 slider (08:03:290 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2) - ) The progressive increasing of slider velocity makes it plays intuitive and it fits the music as well too.
I can give more not ranked maps what uses different multiplier, but i'm sure approved ones should be best example.
there is a huge difference between 2.4sv and 5.0sv
did you mean "2.4x" vs "5.0x" ? as SV is not SVC(which is green timing slider velocitiy multiplier)
by sv i just mean slider velocity.
i might agree to a allowing using 3x slider velocity, but not 5
i might agree to a allowing using 3x slider velocity, but not 5
Have a star.
Having a more flexible map maker is always a plus since the maps are already modded anyways before being ranked, the BAT can tell what is abuse or not so no problem having the feature for mappers.
Having a more flexible map maker is always a plus since the maps are already modded anyways before being ranked, the BAT can tell what is abuse or not so no problem having the feature for mappers.
OMG SUPPORT THIS SO BAD
That's not the point. Why does the range have to be increased in order for you (anyone) to be creative? 0.5x to 2.00x is great. Besides, only a minimal amount of people understand what abuse really is (as history proves). Also,Kodora wrote:
Why it should be unrankable if it can be done well & creative?
This has been the wrong mindset and we've been telling you this. Each map is its independent entity; one's allowance does not imply another. Additionally, these should have been caught before they were ranked, and can only be blamed on the inability (or misjudgment) of some.Kodora wrote:
2)We already have approved maps what uses different SV multiplier.
Kodora
Isnt point at all. Why only x0.50-x2.00 then?those wrote:
That's not the point. Why does the range have to be increased in order for you (anyone) to be creative? 0.5x to 2.00x is great
We have qualified members to judge map's quality (including ranking & unranking) and a lot of modders to prevent any abuse usage for any avaliable point.those wrote:
Besides, only a minimal amount of people understand what abuse really is (as history proves).
I linked this approved maps as example of sliders what already breaks current slider velocity multiplier and was done well, plays good, intuitive, follows music and playability of them was confirmed by at least 3 BATs and a lot of players (example of playability). I linked them not to discuss how fair was this approving, dont missunderstand me please.those wrote:
This has been the wrong mindset and we've been telling you this. Each map is its independent entity; one's allowance does not imply another. Additionally, these should have been caught before they were ranked, and can only be blamed on the inability (or misjudgment) of some.
Considering how infrequent this would be used, it would be better to amend the editing of osu files rule then continue this movement to allow going beyond the constriction in special cases.
In general, the current editor constriction is adequate for moat playable mapping. As long as such an amendment doesnt bring back hold sliders, I am fine with it.
In general, the current editor constriction is adequate for moat playable mapping. As long as such an amendment doesnt bring back hold sliders, I am fine with it.
I'm going to support this.
Due to the way slider velocity works, low bpm songs have an arbitrary cap on how fast sliders can go (this is inversely the same with high bpm songs).
Also, it may not be immediately obvious, but removing the cap doesn't mean all maps will have more extreme slider velocity. A removal of the cap would actually help keep speed consistent in some cases.
For example, if a song jumps from say 300 bpm to 50 bpm (stuff like pluto), unlimited inherining section use would allow the mapper to keep their slider velocities constant throughout, instead of desperately using 0.5x and 2.00x to try and achieve it.
Due to the way slider velocity works, low bpm songs have an arbitrary cap on how fast sliders can go (this is inversely the same with high bpm songs).
Also, it may not be immediately obvious, but removing the cap doesn't mean all maps will have more extreme slider velocity. A removal of the cap would actually help keep speed consistent in some cases.
For example, if a song jumps from say 300 bpm to 50 bpm (stuff like pluto), unlimited inherining section use would allow the mapper to keep their slider velocities constant throughout, instead of desperately using 0.5x and 2.00x to try and achieve it.
I really don't think that there's any need for this. There's enough scope for creativity and pacing with .5x and 2x alone, not to mention everything in between. I suppose that extreme tempo changes would benefit, but one could simply multiply the tempo itself. I'm willing to bet that such extreme tempo changes are nothing more than longer notes, or could otherwise be interpreted as such and thus the tempo wouldn't need to be changed so drastically.
Kodora
I gived maps for example how it can be used in creative way over current limit. I dont see any reason to keep it limited.D33d wrote:
I really don't think that there's any need for this. There's enough scope for creativity and pacing with .5x and 2x alone, not to mention everything in between.
Main point - it can be done well and intuitive. If it plays bad it just will be modded out.D33d wrote:
need to be changed so drastically.
...and I explained why that's not an argument. Stop bringing up specific maps in support of this because there's no support in that.
The reason why 0.5x to 2.0x is used is because that is what's provided.
The reason why 0.5x to 2.0x is used is because that is what's provided.
Kodora
There are a lot of things what was provided before (stack leniency 0, CS0, 8-10, volume sections 0%, spinner-rule about 2000 bonus etc) but what was removed or changed for specified reasons. And a lot of absolutely new things what was added just by people's requests. As you can see, a lot of people supporting changing current slider velocity multiplier because allowing more huge one have very big potential of creativity usage - enough fair reason i guess.those wrote:
The reason why 0.5x to 2.0x is used is because that is what's provided.
I just showed a simple examples of potential usage of it what people already like, thats all.those wrote:
..and I explained why that's not an argument. Stop bringing up specific maps in support of this because there's no support in that.
I'd be in favor of making a multiplier down to 0.1x possible, but not to 5x in the other direction. Slow sliders can be done well(and there are quite a few instances of them that play well), but I find extremespeed sliders very obnoxious because they usually play like shit, mainly because they're hard to read unless they have a storyboarded warning or something like that. 2x is hard enough, and if you desperately want a slider that warrants an SV multiplier like that you should question your design choices.
I would consider allowing less than 0.5x if the slider ball is first converted into a proper 3d object so the animation doesn't look like balls. Likely not going to happen due to skinning restrictions, though. Above 2x is just crazy talk.
Kodora
Wait whats wrong with sliderballs wits sections slower than x0.5? o_Opeppy wrote:
I would consider allowing less than 0.5x if the slider ball is first converted into a proper 3d object so the animation doesn't look like balls.
Its not always crazy, it can be done well if it fits the music. For example, as i linked in my first post, progressive SV raising technique - player can understand that next slider goest faster and can aim it well (map for example - http://osu.ppy.sh/b/92051 - 08:03:290 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2)).peppy wrote:
Above 2x is just crazy talk.
Its not onliest mapping technique what may works well with sliders faster than x2.00 but i hope it will be good example.
What about Taiko? I wanted to ask this some time ago as well. Sometimes there are notes which require a higher SV multiplier than x2.00 due to overlapping issues. Certain songs allow to have fast appearance of finisher, sliders or spinners, but the editor doesn't. So it becomes problematic once a song reach the +200 BPM because then, the x2.00 or x1.50 has no usage anymore due to bad overlapping which could be fixed by x4.00 multiplier. I doubt there is a skinning restriction in Taiko, since there are no 3D effects, or? Also it would give us one of our -okay, I call it now carefully- gimmicks back, which TNT is using often for example, but not unreasonable. After all, we have only one axis, and having one more restriction in a one axis game is... well, less possibilities in mapping. If something crazy should happen, the Taiko-BAT is the first one on the front to stop this.peppy wrote:
I would consider allowing less than 0.5x if the slider ball is first converted into a proper 3d object so the animation doesn't look like balls. Likely not going to happen due to skinning restrictions, though. Above 2x is just crazy talk.
I would support Kodoras idea, due to the stuff I mentioned now for Taiko.
You simply do not understand. You can use "progressive SV raising technique" while still staying within 2.0x slider velocity.Kodora wrote:
Its not always crazy, it can be done well if it fits the music. For example, as i linked in my first post, progressive SV raising technique - player can understand that next slider goest faster and can aim it well (map for example - http://osu.ppy.sh/b/92051 - 08:03:290 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2)).peppy wrote:
Above 2x is just crazy talk.
Its not onliest mapping technique what may works well with sliders faster than x2.00 but i hope it will be good example.
Kodora
That's not the point. The point is what you want achieved can already be achieved with the current limitations. Anything besides this is extraneous.
Kodora
It cant be achieved using current limitations.those wrote:
That's not the point. The point is what you want achieved can already be achieved with the current limitations. Anything besides this is extraneous.
For example, SV progression what used Cry for Eternity map what i linked - it used progression x1.00 -> x1.50 -> x2.00 -> x2.40.
This progression definitely cant be achieved using current limitaions.
Some resolving what people usually suggest: double basic SV and half SV in all inherited sections. But it not always works. Biggest problem - it makes impossible to make slowdown parts (what also can be far, far away from speedup parts and will never confuse player). As Charles said before, bigger limit would work better in this case.
Rational usage of new SV multiplier can give a lot of potential to new mapping.
The current limitations also give good results and I'm also willing to bet that the amount of abuse would outweigh the occasional good application in a pretty horrible way. The last thing that this place needs is an "it's technically feasible, therefore I'm doing it no matter what" argument over SV. Halving and doubling the velocity is already pretty drastic.Kodora wrote:
Main point - it can be done well and intuitive. If it plays bad it just will be modded out.
Going by what peppy said, extreme slowdowns would be much more likely to succeed than extreme speedups, but aside from the sliderball's animation looking horrible, going too slow makes a map plod tediously. I always hate it when that happens, because it barely feels involving in the slightest. Having the sliders too fast is disastrous. What we have now is a good middleground between "too slow" and "too fast."
Once again, map reference doesn't do a thing.
You only think it can't be done because you see a 240% ratio. As a matter of fact, the maximum slider velocity could have been 2.0x and the progression could have been just as great. The reason why you can't see this is because you (not only you) have forced yourself to try to break the system instead of using what you're given to fuller potential.
You only think it can't be done because you see a 240% ratio. As a matter of fact, the maximum slider velocity could have been 2.0x and the progression could have been just as great. The reason why you can't see this is because you (not only you) have forced yourself to try to break the system instead of using what you're given to fuller potential.
Kodora
But new limitations can give much more better result if they will be done rational. Its absolutely new prospects.D33d wrote:
The current limitations also give good results and I'm also willing to bet that the amount of abuse would outweigh the occasional good application in a pretty horrible way.
If it done rational it wont be drastic. Also, a lot of people like huge speedchange nowadays (if it needs i will give links to maps what used huge speedchanges and what have a lot of fauvorites, positive feedback from players, positive votes etc etc etc).D33d wrote:
Halving and doubling the velocity is already pretty drastic.
I dont know what's wrong with sliderball's animation. Maybe its just me but it also looks okay as for me (https://osu.ppy.sh/s/29705 - for example this map, it have x0.13 and x0.20 sliders but they looks as usual here)D33d wrote:
but aside from the sliderball's animation looking horrible
quick edit to reply:
those, why you consider this in such a negative way? Its not a mythical "war with system", its just a reasonable suggestion to give new prospects for mapping, to give new ways of creativity. If it can be done well why it shouldnt be rankable? If current system can be improved, then why not do it? If potential can be increased, then why not?those wrote:
Once again, map reference doesn't do a thing.
You only think it can't be done because you see a 240% ratio. As a matter of fact, the maximum slider velocity could have been 2.0x and the progression could have been just as great. The reason why you can't see this is because you (not only you) have forced yourself to try to break the system instead of using what you're given to fuller potential.
You know, whether something has been abused or not is totally subjective. People who dislike slow sliders will say "these are too slow so it's abused" and other's will say "They're fun to play for me so they're most likely fine."
Some mappers use 2.0 spacing for a jump where another would have used 3.0
Some mappers will map a slider where others would have used a spinner
Some mappers decide to use 0.6x sv where another mapper would have used 0.8x sv
and that's totally fine, isn't it? both versions are gonna be enjoyed by different players.
So why wouldn't we just allow lower or higher sv and see that people are going to enjoy them still?
How would giving the mapper a bit more possibilities of interpreting music hurt this game, modders or players? jeez.
Some mappers use 2.0 spacing for a jump where another would have used 3.0
Some mappers will map a slider where others would have used a spinner
Some mappers decide to use 0.6x sv where another mapper would have used 0.8x sv
and that's totally fine, isn't it? both versions are gonna be enjoyed by different players.
So why wouldn't we just allow lower or higher sv and see that people are going to enjoy them still?
How would giving the mapper a bit more possibilities of interpreting music hurt this game, modders or players? jeez.
Support, though personally I wouldn't use it since I'm not good at mapping, but others would benefit from it.
support. but I thought 0.1~10 is too weird to become a playable slider velocity
however..
let's suppose X as the minimal slider velocity, then the maximal slider velocity should be X^(-1). so I thought x=0.25 is really awesome bcz we can reduce the slider velocity by 16 times and hold sliders will make sense
however..
let's suppose X as the minimal slider velocity, then the maximal slider velocity should be X^(-1). so I thought x=0.25 is really awesome bcz we can reduce the slider velocity by 16 times and hold sliders will make sense
those your logic makes no sense whatsoever
and the reason why you can't see why it's better is because you're forcing yourself to just stay within the boundaries and do the same thing over and over, instead of actually trying new things
k next up
and before you say "but it's personal preference to put sliders > 2.0x or < 0.5x cause I know someone will try it, just look how many people supported this (+30 in the first 3 hrs...) the number of people who want this is really greater than the number of people who don't
next up is what I agree with
and for the record
there exists a map with a 5.0x slider and it's one of the best things ever, so don't go saying "anything above 2.0x is ridiculous"
tl;dr: there is no reason at all to limit things, when it can be even better without the limitation. "abuse" isn't a valid excuse. just think about the whole community for a few seconds plz instead of just assuming you know everything all the time
except we're saying it couldn't have been just as great. read the thread plzthose wrote:
You only think it can't be done because you see a 240% ratio. As a matter of fact, the maximum slider velocity could have been 2.0x and the progression could have been just as great.
you're completely missing the point. everyone agrees that allowing higher multipliers will be EVEN BETTER than leaving it the way it is. we can do well staying within limitations, but if we can do even better removing the limitations, why do you wanna disallow that? = =those wrote:
The reason why you can't see this is because you (not only you) have forced yourself to try to break the system instead of using what you're given to fuller potential.
and the reason why you can't see why it's better is because you're forcing yourself to just stay within the boundaries and do the same thing over and over, instead of actually trying new things
k next up
except we have a team called BATs who can identify "abuse" before the map gets ranked. if someone puts a 5.0x slider and it defies all sense, it'll be removed anywayD33d wrote:
The current limitations also give good results and I'm also willing to bet that the amount of abuse would outweigh the occasional good application in a pretty horrible way. The last thing that this place needs is an "it's technically feasible, therefore I'm doing it no matter what" argument over SV. Halving and doubling the velocity is already pretty drastic.
that's your personal preference. You don't like really slow sliders, so they shouldn't be implemented? I think we can all see this makes no sense = =D33d wrote:
Going by what peppy said, extreme slowdowns would be much more likely to succeed than extreme speedups, but aside from the sliderball's animation looking horrible, going too slow makes a map plod tediously. I always hate it when that happens, because it barely feels involving in the slightest. Having the sliders too fast is disastrous. What we have now is a good middleground between "too slow" and "too fast."
and before you say "but it's personal preference to put sliders > 2.0x or < 0.5x cause I know someone will try it, just look how many people supported this (+30 in the first 3 hrs...) the number of people who want this is really greater than the number of people who don't
next up is what I agree with
this for god sakes. if you wanna use this trick it becomes impossible to make an "effective" 0.5x section, just that. also I had a map that had a 0.25x slider immediately followed by a 2.0x slider and it was perfect (before anyone complains, dl the map and try to make something better plz, yeah I'm that confident)Kodora wrote:
Some resolving what people usually suggest: double basic SV and half SV in all inherited sections. But it not always works. Biggest problem - it makes impossible to make slowdown parts (what also can be far, far away from speedup parts and will never confuse player). As Charles said before, bigger limit would work better in this case.
and for the record
there exists a map with a 5.0x slider and it's one of the best things ever, so don't go saying "anything above 2.0x is ridiculous"
tl;dr: there is no reason at all to limit things, when it can be even better without the limitation. "abuse" isn't a valid excuse. just think about the whole community for a few seconds plz instead of just assuming you know everything all the time
Did anyone even bother to read what I posted? It's probably the best course of action if you want to see change in this particular field.
oh I forgot you sry
also, I thought what you mentioned before that is rankable already? 0.0
what's the problem with hold sliders? we all agreed they played epic way back when till they were apparently unrankable. just putting a 0.25x green section seems fine enough, just no one does it cause we got used to not having themGarven wrote:
In general, the current editor constriction is adequate for moat playable mapping. As long as such an amendment doesnt bring back hold sliders, I am fine with it.
also, I thought what you mentioned before that is rankable already? 0.0
Another example of a map that begs for wider SV possibilities--a map that is actually a personal favorite of mine
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/140460
01:59:517 (1) -
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/140460
01:59:517 (1) -
Kodora
sorry i forgot to reply
also for now sliders over x0.5-x2.00 can be done via osumania editor w/o editing .osz
Should we just make new rule about slider speed usage instead then?
ok quick edit
we can just simple change one current rule to this:
How about this?
Very good solution imoGarven wrote:
Considering how infrequent this would be used, it would be better to amend the editing of osu files rule then continue this movement to allow going beyond the constriction in special cases.
Should we just make new rule about slider speed usage instead then?
ok quick edit
we can just simple change one current rule to this:
Do not manually edit anything in an .osu file that cannot be changed through the Editor. The only exceptions are .osu-specific storyboards, slider velocity multiplier and skin-related options such as SliderBorder and SliderTrackOverride.And put x0.5-x2.00 to guidelines.
How about this?
I think it's a good idea
some maps need it
support
some maps need it
support
nothing but support
though I may need long time to consider how to actually use it
though I may need long time to consider how to actually use it
This would be a only-Insane technique since things like that are used for being really complicated. I'd also say that Hold sliders should not be made on this way then but I see a lot of potential if we allow to use <0.5x / >2.0x SV per green Lines. I see good things coming with that but also bad ones. Cannot result about this.
of course it would be Insane-only... SV changes are like never used in any lowdiffs in the first placeStefan wrote:
This would be a only-Insane technique since things like that are used for being really complicated. I'd also say that Hold sliders should not be made on this way then but I see a lot of potential if we allow to use <0.5x / >2.0x SV per green Lines. I see good things coming with that but also bad ones. Cannot result about this.
Kodora
Of course. Any spedchanges usage on easiest diffs isnt recommended at all.Stefan wrote:
This would be a only-Insane technique since things like that are used for being really complicated.
Little point about hold sliders. "Hold slider" in fact is uncommon usage of speedchanges (extreme jump from normal/fast slider to very slow one what definitely cant be noticed while playing, plays weird and where music doesnt requires it). This is just kind of abuse what obviously will be pointed out by modders and BATs while modding/ranking process. However, i must say that abuse usage can be done even with current multiplier, but i doubt that map what uses it will be ranked.Stefan wrote:
I'd also say that Hold sliders should not be made on this way then but I see a lot of potential if we allow to use <0.5x / >2.0x SV per green Lines. I see good things coming with that but also bad ones. Cannot result about this.
I support this. I'd really like to use sliders with a slower speed than x0.50.
sliders < 0.5x is a hold anyway. wait for hold notes to be implemented.
Kodora
Main problem of hold sliders is that they give drastic effect while playing (unexpected and counter-intuitive speed jump as i said above). If it done in way where they dont hurts while playing i guess it works fine (as example you can make progressive SV decreasing same as progressive SV raising). x0.5 is just a number, final speed & playability very depends to bpm, song and patterns what mapper used.peppy wrote:
sliders < 0.5x is a hold anyway. wait for hold notes to be implemented.
Unlike "hold note" where player needs to hold & wait slider gives absolutely different feelings while following sliderball (x0.25 and slower sliders can be done as enough long ones to follow sliderball instead of holding cursor in one point - this is different).
Thats why allowing < 0.5 is important.
I'm only chipping in my opinion here, but it's based on what I consider to be a rather large amount of experience on my part. A fast song will yield faster sliders as a matter of course and extremely slow SV leaves a ridiculously limited scope for patterns, which will always end up being scrunchy, self-overlapping and barely-moving messes. In this instance, the only way to create more motion is to juxtapose horrifically slow sliders with horrifically disproportionate jumps. It's not a good experience for me. Halving the speed already creates enough of a change in feel which actually relates to the music.pieguy1372 wrote:
except we have a team called BATs who can identify "abuse" before the map gets ranked. if someone puts a 5.0x slider and it defies all sense, it'll be removed anywayD33d wrote:
The current limitations also give good results and I'm also willing to bet that the amount of abuse would outweigh the occasional good application in a pretty horrible way. The last thing that this place needs is an "it's technically feasible, therefore I'm doing it no matter what" argument over SV. Halving and doubling the velocity is already pretty drastic.that's your personal preference. You don't like really slow sliders, so they shouldn't be implemented? I think we can all see this makes no sense = =D33d wrote:
Going by what peppy said, extreme slowdowns would be much more likely to succeed than extreme speedups, but aside from the sliderball's animation looking horrible, going too slow makes a map plod tediously. I always hate it when that happens, because it barely feels involving in the slightest. Having the sliders too fast is disastrous. What we have now is a good middleground between "too slow" and "too fast."
and before you say "but it's personal preference to put sliders > 2.0x or < 0.5x cause I know someone will try it, just look how many people supported this (+30 in the first 3 hrs...) the number of people who want this is really greater than the number of people who don't
Overly fast sliders become ridiculously uncomfortable to play and only fit intense songs. For a fast song, setting the SV correctly in the first place will allow for plenty of momentum at 1x, which would already become extremely fast at 2x--in such a case, I wouldn't even recommend more than 1.5x increases for anything which gets close to 200BPM. Slowing things down to half-speed would make things slow enough without compromising the overall feel of the song, while an actual slowdown in the song's tempo would make SV multipliers irrelevant--a tempo change would be used, which would slow down the default SV anyway.
Moreover, I don't consider it unreasonable to expect that such an implementation would be abused enough for it to be removed at some point. That's already happened after far too much farting around. There's quite enough flexibility with the current settings and simply changing the flow of a section can have a massive effect on how the section feels in relation to the music. If I were a BAT, then I'd rather not want to add even more obscene SV abuse to my daily shit-list, so being preventive in this case would save a lot of headaches.
As peppy also said, extremely slow sliders play as holds. They carry no real impetus and defeat the purpose of a "slider." To quote Charles out of context, they're a "waiting game" and I've never seen them used in a fun way, ever. As for the sliderball looking like arse, its animation doesn't have that many frames--at extremely slow speeds, the animation becomes jerky and looks very goofy. It would probably continue to look nasty at <0.5x if more frames were added, unless somebody really wants to make loads of subtle shading changes to the ball itself.
Also, the amount of supporters doesn't necessarily imply that everybody wants it--it just shows that lots of people want it. You don't know how many people would detest this without them expressing their disapproval and a good many of them probably don't want to become involved in any arguments over this anyway.
To sum up my opinion on this: At a given tempo, extreme changes in speed are jarring and, assuming that the default setting feels good, extreme changes will not feel good regardless of how gradually they're introduced. The current restrictions are hardly limiting to one's creativity, because there are loads of other ways to create intensity and calmness without ever touching the multiplier. If the global SV can't be tuned to work with faster and slower sections, then it was probably set incorrectly to begin with.
I'm only chipping in my opinion here, but it's based on what I consider to be a rather large amount of experience on my part.so all the people who do support this, including BATs and experienced mappers, don't have as much experience as you. ok
A fast song will yield faster sliders as a matter of course and extremely slow SV leaves a ridiculously limited scope for patterns, which will always end up being scrunchy, self-overlapping and barely-moving messes. In this instance, the only way to create more motion is to juxtapose horrifically slow sliders with horrifically disproportionate jumps. It's not a good experience for me. Halving the speed already creates enough of a change in feel which actually relates to the music.I have no idea what you're even talking about, but I'll try anyway
A fast song will yield faster sliders as a matter of course and extremely slow SV leaves a ridiculously limited scope for patterns, which will always end up being scrunchy, self-overlapping and barely-moving messes.your opinion, and I think we all know using "always" in relation to mapping doesn't work
In this instance, the only way to create more motion is to juxtapose horrifically slow sliders with horrifically disproportionate jumps.people use slow sliders to create less motion cause having too much motion doesn't fit
Halving the speed already creates enough of a change in feel which actually relates to the music.ok, but in special cases sliders <0.5x work well and feel really good ~
Overly fast sliders become ridiculously uncomfortable to play and only fit intense songs. For a fast song, setting the SV correctly in the first place will allow for plenty of momentum at 1x, which would already become extremely fast at 2x--in such a case, I wouldn't even recommend more than 1.5x increases for anything which gets close to 200BPM.on certain occasions a slider needs to have a speed > 2.0x. I doubt people are gonna make a whole 3.0x section. hey at least it also allows the possibility if someone does it well
in other words
me wrote:
but if we can do even better removing the limitations, why do you wanna disallow that? = =
Moreover, I don't consider it unreasonable to expect that such an implementation would be abused enough for it to be removed at some point. That's already happened after far too much farting around.maybe it will and maybe it won't. it might happen but imo people are most likely going to use it well. in other words
me wrote:
but if we can do even better removing the limitations, why do you wanna disallow that? = =
If I were a BAT, then I'd rather not want to add even more obscene SV abuse to my daily shit-list, so being preventive in this case would save a lot of headaches.and also prevent a lot of amazing things from happening
Also, the amount of supporters doesn't necessarily imply that everybody wants it--it just shows that lots of people want it. You don't know how many people would detest this without them expressing their disapproval and a good many of them probably don't want to become involved in any arguments over this anyway.I never said everyone wants it. just, the fact that 23984739284 people posted "support" and you two are the only ones who are really against it, that really says something imo
To sum up my opinion on this: At a given tempo, extreme changes in speed are jarring and, assuming that the default setting feels good, extreme changes will not feel good regardless of how gradually they're introduced. The current restrictions are hardly limiting to one's creativity, because there are loads of other ways to create intensity and calmness without ever touching the multiplier. If the global SV can't be tuned to work with faster and slower sections, then it was probably set incorrectly to begin with.
tl;dr: everything in your post can be refuted with just 2 sentencesme wrote:
you're completely missing the point. everyone agrees that allowing higher multipliers will be EVEN BETTER than leaving it the way it is. we can do well staying within limitations, but if we can do even better removing the limitations, why do you wanna disallow that? = =
I'm done here until someone refutes this ^me wrote:
everyone agrees that allowing higher multipliers will be EVEN BETTER than leaving it the way it is. we can do well staying within limitations, but if we can do even better removing the limitations, why do you wanna disallow that? = =
last up
IMO, people will sometimes want to make a really slow, holding feeling without "no motion". In other words, sometimes they want just a very slow motion instead of none at all. That's why I think sliders < 0.5 is valid and separate from "hold notes" = =peppy wrote:
sliders < 0.5x is a hold anyway. wait for hold notes to be implemented.
This is not true when the slider is long.peppy wrote:
sliders < 0.5x is a hold anyway. wait for hold notes to be implemented.
@D33d: You are like, assuming just because you yourself wouldn't like a such sliders because of your personal opinion, it#s automatically bad.
Read my previous post. How would you define when it is "abused"? Is it abused the moment YOU as an INDIVIDUAL and a SUBJECTIVE opinion cannot enjoy it anymore?
You see, the essence of osu! is that everyone can play and map whichever song HOWEVER they like. As long as it is rhythmically correct, whether a map is good or bad is entirely subjective. Whether a slider is fun or not depends on the player.
Ever considered that other people made other experiences? That others might consider 0.5x to not have the effect they want?D33d wrote:
It's not a good experience for me. Halving the speed already creates enough of a change in feel which actually relates to the music.
Again, this is simply your own preference.D33d wrote:
Overly fast sliders become ridiculously uncomfortable to play and only fit intense songs. [...] Slowing things down to half-speed would make things slow enough without compromising the overall feel of the song
They do not. A slider will always be that, a slider, and will ALWAYS have the effect of something moving. Hold Notes would need to be used entirely differently, if ever implemented.D33d wrote:
As peppy also said, extremely slow sliders play as holds.
So what does the Feature Request, subforum, where this thread originally was, exist for, then, if the opinion of >30 sup-stars on the first day doesn't count? Do we just ignore the ~7 pages of people who agree with the OP because MAYBE there MIGHT be some other people who think differently, if they can't even be arsed to join the discussion? They cannot be against this all that much if it's too stressful to explain why they disagree, can they? You are assuming things one after.D33d wrote:
Also, the amount of supporters doesn't necessarily imply that everybody wants it--it just shows that lots of people want it. You don't know how many people would detest this without them expressing their disapproval and a good many of them probably don't want to become involved in any arguments over this anyway.
why not? Why wouldn't they feel good? I've played some that play really well, just because you think differently doesn't make your opinion a fact.D33d wrote:
At a given tempo, extreme changes in speed are jarring and, assuming that the default setting feels good, extreme changes will not feel good regardless of how gradually they're introduced.
Basically you are just assuming you can project your opinion, that lower or higher SV than currently possible, does not feel well when playing, on everyone else, without actually providing reasons as to why it would play bad. What makes a 0.4x Slider worse than a 0.6x one?
Just let the mapper interpret the song the way they want. ffs
Would it really harm anyone to implement this? <_<
By the way, D33d: Sorry for ripping your post apart like that, the same way pieguy did. We are not trying to offend you or anything. Please try to keep calm about this and not be biased.
Mapping need less rules anyway. Just make a rule "The map has to be rhythmically correct, i.e. no 1/16 when there is only 1/1." and let the mappers do their goddamn thing. Honestly now.
all this text is completely pointless. these threads should only have beatmaps posted to them, with examples of where did works or not. please do not post any more walls of text, but only examples of where this does/doesn't work. i'll do my part and delete any post which isn't either a) a map or b) a post about a previously posted map discussing whether it works well or not.
ok
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/106954 0.25x slider then a 2.0x immediately after it. before you complain make something better plz, I'm that confident
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/79449 5.0x slider at the end
either way, I'd be fine with just allowing changing it through .osu instead of putting it in the editor
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/106954 0.25x slider then a 2.0x immediately after it. before you complain make something better plz, I'm that confident
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/79449 5.0x slider at the end
either way, I'd be fine with just allowing changing it through .osu instead of putting it in the editor
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/265413 [Blue Tear]
01:59:979 (5) -
fits the song, and by stacking notes above it I stop player's movement so they have the possibilty to read and understand the slider. However, whether it is fun is a question every player has to answer for himself.
01:59:979 (5) -
fits the song, and by stacking notes above it I stop player's movement so they have the possibilty to read and understand the slider. However, whether it is fun is a question every player has to answer for himself.
i didn't post an example
Kodora
Other examples what was not discussed yet:
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/252238 - (03:47:204 - 04:22:636 part) - Gradual lovering speed of sliders following calm and long violin notes; it fits song overral and player can understand such speedchange while playing
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/289049 - (05:10:079 - 06:39:319 part) - Example of rational usage of speedjumps. Mapper uses x2.30 and x2.50 sliders on strong & energetic parts of song what fits overral and looks enough intuitive for playing; i must say that noone even noticed that those sliders goes really over x2.0 limit - its just not feels crazy.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/203906 (Lan) - speed of sliders adjusted following violin & piano notes for a whole map, and it feels amazing while playing.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/98451 - going to post this because noone discussed ending part here (10:44:207 (1)). Last slider gives "feeling of ending" what based on this calm note, its enough long & fast to follow it, and also enough intuitive to not make sliderbreak here. Also 00:12:303 (4) - this slider gives feeling of "something what will come", gives atmosphere of beginning of great challenge.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/252238 - (03:47:204 - 04:22:636 part) - Gradual lovering speed of sliders following calm and long violin notes; it fits song overral and player can understand such speedchange while playing
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/289049 - (05:10:079 - 06:39:319 part) - Example of rational usage of speedjumps. Mapper uses x2.30 and x2.50 sliders on strong & energetic parts of song what fits overral and looks enough intuitive for playing; i must say that noone even noticed that those sliders goes really over x2.0 limit - its just not feels crazy.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/203906 (Lan) - speed of sliders adjusted following violin & piano notes for a whole map, and it feels amazing while playing.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/98451 - going to post this because noone discussed ending part here (10:44:207 (1)). Last slider gives "feeling of ending" what based on this calm note, its enough long & fast to follow it, and also enough intuitive to not make sliderbreak here. Also 00:12:303 (4) - this slider gives feeling of "something what will come", gives atmosphere of beginning of great challenge.
i didn't post an example
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/60722
I forgot this.
00:04:847 (1) -
01:23:922 (1) - THIS IS JUST COOL AS FARK (especially with the SB and the kiai flashes)
I forgot this.
00:04:847 (1) -
01:23:922 (1) - THIS IS JUST COOL AS FARK (especially with the SB and the kiai flashes)
I think this post should at Feature Request. Why it here? lol
u mad
Kodora
It was actually, but moved here.Oyatsu wrote:
I think this post should at Feature Request. Why it here? lol
Also one map what i always forgot to post
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/210313 - How intuitive and amazing map can be. 02:28:098 (1) - this slider used x0.25 speed. Just listen to music at this part - this slider absolutely mach song here, gives feeling of this sudden bass note here, feeling of this song. Not like it can be replaced with "hold" or something, this slider is totally playable and feels just awesome on this part.
I did.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
i didn't post an example
I said my entry for the contest had some sections sv multiplier edited from the .osu
Kodora
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/160376 (Excorrupt diff) - Slowdows sections fully mapped using x0.13 SV and it works as much better alternative for x0.50
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/150366&m=1 <- Coward Haku
02:22:384 (6) - In my guest, 0.38x is the half of x0.75 ( half is x0.375 ~ x0.38). Though I used some unrankable sliders
02:22:384 (6) - In my guest, 0.38x is the half of x0.75 ( half is x0.375 ~ x0.38). Though I used some unrankable sliders
Kodora
Since i see this map really first time i asked some people with different skill level to play it. I played it too. All was have only one try. Noone was know this map beforeHakuNoKaemi wrote:
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/150366&m=1 <- Coward Haku
02:22:384 (6) - In my guest, 0.38x is the half of x0.75 ( half is x0.375 ~ x0.38). Though I used some unrankable sliders
Results
Those sliderspeed manipulations done very intuitive, and noone even noticed that here was x0.38 slider. Good example of rational usage.
Those sliderspeed manipulations done very intuitive, and noone even noticed that here was x0.38 slider. Good example of rational usage.
Haku, you might want to find an actual good example. I glanced at the judge comments for your entry, and they -all- found it to be a poor use.
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/contestresults?e=100
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/contestresults?e=100
SPOILER
Moreover, extremely slow sliders do play as holds, because the cursor effectively stays in one place. There could be a very slight motion with shorter sliders, but that doesn't change the hold-like feel. Wait for actual holds, which provide feedback. Longer sliders feel tedious and useless to me, as well as feeling like they're mapped over useless parts.
As for my experience, more than two years, including my experience with 2008 maps and the DS games, has given me pretty much everything that I need to know and then some. Amount of time or status != right, especially because I could make a strong case for becoming a BAT if I were to push for it. Also, my point about the people who might be opposed to this was aimed at pieguy's statement of "hey look how many people like this, this clearly means that everybody likes it!" A tiny fraction of the community have shown their support.
I'm taking the liberty of having a look at these examples, but the download limit's making the process very slow. Let it be said that my aggressive tone is only me being assertive in the face of people who assume that I have no basis for my opinion. Let's start with pieguy's examples!
First map: pieguy posting one of his maps as "evidence." No bias here!
The extremely slow slider is tedious and mapped over pretty much nothing. It feels thoroughly useless. The speedup after it is obscene and would not be rankable. You people can already change the .osu for gimmick maps, so you can make silly gimmicks like this for standalone maps. They won't be ranked anyway.
The second example is ridiculous. The last kickslider makes it hard to tell if it's even possible to hold the cursor in place, but it's quite a narrow margin anyway. Moreover, all of the sliders look like they could have the same duration. The map would not be rankable in the slightest.
worldenddominator: Not good. Utterly unreadable. The tiny slider looks like it'd last for a sixteenth note. The sweeping motion of the note could be expressed far, far better by a long wave or, you know, one of those silly scrunched up sliders. What follows the tiny slider is a horrible example of flow, readability, presentation and pretty much everything which good mapping entails. Even worse, the whistle makes it feel even more ludicrous.
'FLOWER': Unreadable nonsense. A spinner or even blank space would make much more sense in the first part. The other example is kind of cute, but it's an unfair trap after the horrendous mess before it. An actual hold circle would be good, or just ending the section on beat one.
'Metomorphasis': I remember playing this map a while ago and not enjoying the experience. In fact, it does a lot wrongly besides the slowdown. That slowdown also comes out of nowhere and it's occurring over a decay. I'd leave silence there. It also ends on a strong downbeat, which weakens the start of the next section.
'MATERIAL': Those sliders were achieved by lowering the BPM, which is the most sensible way because of the song's ritardando. I'd say that it'd make more sense to leave some space anyway, since the piano finishes in a satisfying place. Not to mention, the speedup after the pause is ridiculous, which is even more reason to let the player actually rest/centre their mouse.
'Nyaruko Marathon': Colourhax does nothing for the readability. The changes also sent my mouse hand flapping around and then it was hard to get back into the map. I only managed to hit them because I knew that they were coming. Unfair traps.
'Roze': I've played this map already and it's one of many severe examples which make me extremely sceptical. I didn't enjoy it--just because the song's emotional, it doesn't mean that the map has to be a flailing mess.
'CaptivAte': Lesjuh can do some weird things. This is one of them. The discrepancy between the huge jumps and the nigh-dead slider is ridiculous and the slider also weakens the last beat in a very bad way.
Couple of more that I've missed. All of the above considers musicality and playability/readability.
Honestly, guys, you're trying to prove to peppy and possibly mm that there's a use for the changes. These are not good examples. I'm pretty sure that peppy would feel the same. His hands are full with loads of other commitments as it is. mm would certainly detest what's being posted.
I know enough about music and pacing to form a competent opinion. I've also spoken to plenty of competent mappers/the people who code this game who agree with me/would agree with me. It's not bias for the sake of bias--it's me seeing quite a significant number of examples of bad pacing/unreadability. They just don't work and would not be rankable.Zarerion wrote:
[Stuff about me projecting my opinion]
Moreover, extremely slow sliders do play as holds, because the cursor effectively stays in one place. There could be a very slight motion with shorter sliders, but that doesn't change the hold-like feel. Wait for actual holds, which provide feedback. Longer sliders feel tedious and useless to me, as well as feeling like they're mapped over useless parts.
As for my experience, more than two years, including my experience with 2008 maps and the DS games, has given me pretty much everything that I need to know and then some. Amount of time or status != right, especially because I could make a strong case for becoming a BAT if I were to push for it. Also, my point about the people who might be opposed to this was aimed at pieguy's statement of "hey look how many people like this, this clearly means that everybody likes it!" A tiny fraction of the community have shown their support.
I'm taking the liberty of having a look at these examples, but the download limit's making the process very slow. Let it be said that my aggressive tone is only me being assertive in the face of people who assume that I have no basis for my opinion. Let's start with pieguy's examples!
First map: pieguy posting one of his maps as "evidence." No bias here!
The extremely slow slider is tedious and mapped over pretty much nothing. It feels thoroughly useless. The speedup after it is obscene and would not be rankable. You people can already change the .osu for gimmick maps, so you can make silly gimmicks like this for standalone maps. They won't be ranked anyway.
The second example is ridiculous. The last kickslider makes it hard to tell if it's even possible to hold the cursor in place, but it's quite a narrow margin anyway. Moreover, all of the sliders look like they could have the same duration. The map would not be rankable in the slightest.
worldenddominator: Not good. Utterly unreadable. The tiny slider looks like it'd last for a sixteenth note. The sweeping motion of the note could be expressed far, far better by a long wave or, you know, one of those silly scrunched up sliders. What follows the tiny slider is a horrible example of flow, readability, presentation and pretty much everything which good mapping entails. Even worse, the whistle makes it feel even more ludicrous.
'FLOWER': Unreadable nonsense. A spinner or even blank space would make much more sense in the first part. The other example is kind of cute, but it's an unfair trap after the horrendous mess before it. An actual hold circle would be good, or just ending the section on beat one.
'Metomorphasis': I remember playing this map a while ago and not enjoying the experience. In fact, it does a lot wrongly besides the slowdown. That slowdown also comes out of nowhere and it's occurring over a decay. I'd leave silence there. It also ends on a strong downbeat, which weakens the start of the next section.
'MATERIAL': Those sliders were achieved by lowering the BPM, which is the most sensible way because of the song's ritardando. I'd say that it'd make more sense to leave some space anyway, since the piano finishes in a satisfying place. Not to mention, the speedup after the pause is ridiculous, which is even more reason to let the player actually rest/centre their mouse.
'Nyaruko Marathon': Colourhax does nothing for the readability. The changes also sent my mouse hand flapping around and then it was hard to get back into the map. I only managed to hit them because I knew that they were coming. Unfair traps.
'Roze': I've played this map already and it's one of many severe examples which make me extremely sceptical. I didn't enjoy it--just because the song's emotional, it doesn't mean that the map has to be a flailing mess.
'CaptivAte': Lesjuh can do some weird things. This is one of them. The discrepancy between the huge jumps and the nigh-dead slider is ridiculous and the slider also weakens the last beat in a very bad way.
Couple of more that I've missed. All of the above considers musicality and playability/readability.
Honestly, guys, you're trying to prove to peppy and possibly mm that there's a use for the changes. These are not good examples. I'm pretty sure that peppy would feel the same. His hands are full with loads of other commitments as it is. mm would certainly detest what's being posted.
SPOILER
read sliderticks?
and/or accept the fact that a map does not necessarily need to be sightreadable for everyone on the very first try?
(also consider that every player has different reading abilities thus it's easier for different people)
How about for once we stop stupid discussions and just try some stuff? Let's just give people, i.e. mappers, the chance to do things their way and see how it works out (hint: It won't be bad). If like everyone agrees that suddenly a shitton of maps use 0.00001 Sliders at speedup kiai parts (hint: this won't happen, mappers will be cautious about using such low SV) we can still change it back.
and/or accept the fact that a map does not necessarily need to be sightreadable for everyone on the very first try?
(also consider that every player has different reading abilities thus it's easier for different people)
How about for once we stop stupid discussions and just try some stuff? Let's just give people, i.e. mappers, the chance to do things their way and see how it works out (hint: It won't be bad). If like everyone agrees that suddenly a shitton of maps use 0.00001 Sliders at speedup kiai parts (hint: this won't happen, mappers will be cautious about using such low SV) we can still change it back.
Kodora
I was sure that we have Beatmap Appreciation Team here to judge playability of every map what pretended to be ranked, isnt it? As a modder you have rights to say your personal opinion about mapping technique what you see but we have special qualified members to judge is it playable or not. Playability discussion have no place for personal opinions. I'm just going to quote ykcarrot here:D33d wrote:
Kodora, your examples would not jibe well with a lot of people and I'd say that it extends to BATs.
Well, lets talk about as minimum 2 my examples:ykcarrot wrote:
Don't slander the mapper just because it doesn't fit your taste.
1) Cry for Eternity - https://osu.ppy.sh/s/27448
I just probably will only leave link to Colin Hou's post - p/801880 - playability confirmed by BATs
2)DJ YOSHITAKA - CaptivAte Compilation - https://osu.ppy.sh/s/29705
Even if Dangaard refused to bubble due to this he confirmed that they works with map just awesome - even not going to talk about another BATs what bubbled it before and after.Dangaard wrote:
the slow sections are codehacked, and as much as this works with the map, it's said to be unrankable and not implemented in the editor... minimum is x0.5
If you want, i can response to every your opinion and prove playability by all of them, but i'm not a qualified member. So please, just wait.
Kodora
please dont remove this post since it about compromise what we all decided to keep
I did short discussion with D33d about Garven's suggestion:
According to this, i'll change topic and first post right now.
EDIT: Changed first post. Any suggestions to improve current wording are welcome.
I did short discussion with D33d about Garven's suggestion:
Wise speedchange usage requires very, very good mapping experiense, especially if mapper decided to cross current limitation. However, in specified cases it may works, and works enough intuitive and playable. Together we decided to follow Garven's suggestion about allowing editing .osz for speedchanges for specified cases. Any abusely usage can be prevented by popping/unranking over quality reason (unreasonable SV changes usage for this case), but good usage may chance to get ranked/approved category.Garven wrote:
Considering how infrequent this would be used, it would be better to amend the editing of osu files rule then continue this movement to allow going beyond the constriction in special cases.
Here is chatlog
23:20 Kodora: o hi
23:20 D33d: Sup.
23:22 Kodora: Do you have so free time to discuss something?
23:22 D33d: Depends on how much discusson's needed.
23:23 Kodora: I think it would be nice to discuss theory aspects via PM (feel free to post log in thread if you want) instead of posting in thread
23:23 Kodora: Its about new SV changes
23:23 D33d: I know.
23:23 D33d: I don't want to talk about it much, because I've said all that I wanted in the thread.
23:23 Kodora: I understand fact that not all people agree with it.
23:23 Kodora: I understand fact that not all people even like any SV manipulation
23:24 D33d: I get that those things are fun to some people, but it's about compromise and not using nasty traps.
23:24 Kodora: We can do a nice compromise. I discussed with Garven before about this.
23:24 D33d: Yeah he'd mentioned that.
23:25 D33d: I only argued my case so intensely because I've seen all of this stuff loads of times and it's never worked for me.
23:25 D33d: That and I've never seen a case which couldn't have been replaced by something else.
23:26 D33d: It's not between us anyway. It's between the supporters and peppy, which is why all of the further discussion was deleted.
23:26 Kodora: As Garven said pm to me, using any SV changes need enough well experience at mapping, and really only few mappers can do it, especially with highest one.
23:26 D33d: Basically that. Discretion and limits are important.
23:26 Kodora: But, it can be done well case-by-case
23:27 D33d: The problem is that it becomes extremely hard to justify.
23:27 Kodora: All rules have exceptions. We cant absolute anything in this universe.
23:27 Kodora: Lets just do one simple compromise:
23:27 D33d: Some of those examples had a nice effect, but contrasted too much and too suddenly.
23:28 D33d: osu! rules can be broken in some cases, but rules are there for a reason.
23:28 Kodora: It wont be implimented in editor, but will be allowed via manual editing .osz for specified cases. If any BAT member will disagree with it, it will be popped over not reasonable usage with constructive suggestions about good replacement.
23:29 Kodora: Or unranked
23:29 D33d: Really, anybody can do that already, right?
23:29 D33d: It's only an editor limitation and, since the use cases are special, people can invoke them when they really want to.
23:30 D33d: I agree with it being allowed at all if it's really effective.
23:31 Kodora: Not really. Only few people know how it can be done. If people can do it in well, reasonable and playable well and playability of this usage will be confirmed by qualified member it will be added to official list of ranked maps.
23:31 Kodora: Thats my idea how it will works.
23:31 D33d: I thought that was always the case.
23:31 D33d: Remind me if there's a rule against it.
23:32 Kodora: We just going to cancel one limitation for specifical case on a legit way, nothing more.
23:32 D33d: Honestly, I'm happy as long as it stays out of the editor.
23:33 Kodora: In fact we really have no any rules about "do not set speedchanges over current editor limit" (yes it can be done without manual editing .osz)
23:33 D33d: Yes, speedchanges can be made with BPM changes.
23:33 Kodora: But to make it clean i think would be nice to have an official exception.
23:33 Kodora: I mean not this.
23:34 Kodora: Speedchanges over current limit can be done just by switching to osu!mania editor moe.
23:34 D33d: Well that's still not allowed and all, but if a song actualy changes its speed, BPM can be changed like that anyway.
23:34 D33d: I still thought that there was always a caveat for it.
23:34 Kodora: *mode
23:34 D33d: Oh okay.
23:34 Kodora: I dont like any BPM manipulations honestly
23:34 D33d: They tend to be bad yeah, if they're done to force something.
23:36 D33d: Mappers only need to understand that extreme gimmicks are likely to be modded out.
23:36 Kodora: One important thing: this discussion was started again because with new osumania editor we can avoid this rule. So, to make it clean and avoid any missunderstanding, i think would be nice to follow Garven's suggestion.
23:36 D33d: I.e. it doesn't have to be a huge issue if massive changes aren't allowed by a BAT.
23:37 D33d: I think that people really need to treat standard and mania as completely separate games.
23:37 Kodora: Its a good compromise what already accepted several BATs.
23:37 D33d: Pretty much.
23:39 Kodora: If there are any BATs what will be against speedchanges usage they have all powers to pop/unrank abusely map over this reason.
23:39 Kodora: Like they exactly doing it now for other problematic maps
23:39 D33d: Exactly.
23:40 D33d: Keeping the case as it is now, we won't have too much abuse and people can still go out of their way if they want.
23:40 D33d: Thanks for being forthcoming about it.
23:41 Kodora: So, you agree with Garven's propose?
23:43 Kodora: I'll just edit first post according to it
23:44 D33d: Yeah I agree.
23:45 Kodora: Then nice. Thanks for discussion, i'll post log :p
23:45 D33d: Sorry for getting so fired up too. I saw all of the bickering and kind of lost it.
23:45 D33d: Plus, I gave all of the reasons I could, so I know that I can leave it be.
23:46 Kodora: :3
23:20 D33d: Sup.
23:22 Kodora: Do you have so free time to discuss something?
23:22 D33d: Depends on how much discusson's needed.
23:23 Kodora: I think it would be nice to discuss theory aspects via PM (feel free to post log in thread if you want) instead of posting in thread
23:23 Kodora: Its about new SV changes
23:23 D33d: I know.
23:23 D33d: I don't want to talk about it much, because I've said all that I wanted in the thread.
23:23 Kodora: I understand fact that not all people agree with it.
23:23 Kodora: I understand fact that not all people even like any SV manipulation
23:24 D33d: I get that those things are fun to some people, but it's about compromise and not using nasty traps.
23:24 Kodora: We can do a nice compromise. I discussed with Garven before about this.
23:24 D33d: Yeah he'd mentioned that.
23:25 D33d: I only argued my case so intensely because I've seen all of this stuff loads of times and it's never worked for me.
23:25 D33d: That and I've never seen a case which couldn't have been replaced by something else.
23:26 D33d: It's not between us anyway. It's between the supporters and peppy, which is why all of the further discussion was deleted.
23:26 Kodora: As Garven said pm to me, using any SV changes need enough well experience at mapping, and really only few mappers can do it, especially with highest one.
23:26 D33d: Basically that. Discretion and limits are important.
23:26 Kodora: But, it can be done well case-by-case
23:27 D33d: The problem is that it becomes extremely hard to justify.
23:27 Kodora: All rules have exceptions. We cant absolute anything in this universe.
23:27 Kodora: Lets just do one simple compromise:
23:27 D33d: Some of those examples had a nice effect, but contrasted too much and too suddenly.
23:28 D33d: osu! rules can be broken in some cases, but rules are there for a reason.
23:28 Kodora: It wont be implimented in editor, but will be allowed via manual editing .osz for specified cases. If any BAT member will disagree with it, it will be popped over not reasonable usage with constructive suggestions about good replacement.
23:29 Kodora: Or unranked
23:29 D33d: Really, anybody can do that already, right?
23:29 D33d: It's only an editor limitation and, since the use cases are special, people can invoke them when they really want to.
23:30 D33d: I agree with it being allowed at all if it's really effective.
23:31 Kodora: Not really. Only few people know how it can be done. If people can do it in well, reasonable and playable well and playability of this usage will be confirmed by qualified member it will be added to official list of ranked maps.
23:31 Kodora: Thats my idea how it will works.
23:31 D33d: I thought that was always the case.
23:31 D33d: Remind me if there's a rule against it.
23:32 Kodora: We just going to cancel one limitation for specifical case on a legit way, nothing more.
23:32 D33d: Honestly, I'm happy as long as it stays out of the editor.
23:33 Kodora: In fact we really have no any rules about "do not set speedchanges over current editor limit" (yes it can be done without manual editing .osz)
23:33 D33d: Yes, speedchanges can be made with BPM changes.
23:33 Kodora: But to make it clean i think would be nice to have an official exception.
23:33 Kodora: I mean not this.
23:34 Kodora: Speedchanges over current limit can be done just by switching to osu!mania editor moe.
23:34 D33d: Well that's still not allowed and all, but if a song actualy changes its speed, BPM can be changed like that anyway.
23:34 D33d: I still thought that there was always a caveat for it.
23:34 Kodora: *mode
23:34 D33d: Oh okay.
23:34 Kodora: I dont like any BPM manipulations honestly
23:34 D33d: They tend to be bad yeah, if they're done to force something.
23:36 D33d: Mappers only need to understand that extreme gimmicks are likely to be modded out.
23:36 Kodora: One important thing: this discussion was started again because with new osumania editor we can avoid this rule. So, to make it clean and avoid any missunderstanding, i think would be nice to follow Garven's suggestion.
23:36 D33d: I.e. it doesn't have to be a huge issue if massive changes aren't allowed by a BAT.
23:37 D33d: I think that people really need to treat standard and mania as completely separate games.
23:37 Kodora: Its a good compromise what already accepted several BATs.
23:37 D33d: Pretty much.
23:39 Kodora: If there are any BATs what will be against speedchanges usage they have all powers to pop/unrank abusely map over this reason.
23:39 Kodora: Like they exactly doing it now for other problematic maps
23:39 D33d: Exactly.
23:40 D33d: Keeping the case as it is now, we won't have too much abuse and people can still go out of their way if they want.
23:40 D33d: Thanks for being forthcoming about it.
23:41 Kodora: So, you agree with Garven's propose?
23:43 Kodora: I'll just edit first post according to it
23:44 D33d: Yeah I agree.
23:45 Kodora: Then nice. Thanks for discussion, i'll post log :p
23:45 D33d: Sorry for getting so fired up too. I saw all of the bickering and kind of lost it.
23:45 D33d: Plus, I gave all of the reasons I could, so I know that I can leave it be.
23:46 Kodora: :3
According to this, i'll change topic and first post right now.
EDIT: Changed first post. Any suggestions to improve current wording are welcome.
It's multipliers, not multiplier. Change that and add these changes.
Kodora
Kodora
Sound exactly perfect, those "dont use more than 3 SV's" guideline was weird anyway, this correction is much more reasonable.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
The rule's already permitting to edit .osu to manually edit sv speeds, like this.
So, let's divide the guideline in two parts
one pertaining the numbers of multipliersA reasonable amount, generally three(excluding tiny velocity shifts made to correct the length of some sliders), of slider velocity multipliers should be used.(Examples: 0.5x, 1.0x and 2.0x or 0.75x, 1.00x and 1.5x, but not 1.00x, 0.98x and 1.02, since they're tiny enough to not be a real change). If slider velocity changes are able to be merged (e.g. close values like 0.8x and 0.7x) while still flowing/working correctly, then they should be.and another pertaining the range of usable multipliersWhile you can generally use a good range of slider velocity multipliers(from 0.5x to 2.0x), you can manually edit the .osu file to obtain an unlimited range of multipliers. When using slider velocity multipliers obtained like this, try to test them with an handful of peoples with various skill levels (dependent on the difficulty of the map) to know if the way you used the slider velocity change played good.
Updated first post.
I just want to give my 2c about this.
The reason I believe a huge velocity change isn't necessary is because when mapping you should care about presentation. You don't have to have really big changes to make an object represent something in the music, little things can work much better, because they are subtle. That is what makes maps interesting in my opinion. Constantly changing speeds or having really drastic changes can be "cool" but that's all there is to it. The playability suffers (though this can be intentional).
What I do agree with is that the base SV is too limited currently, and should be bigger, simply because of another issue and that is the BPM. There are songs which are very active and uplifting and yet their BPM is too low. There are songs with like 140 BPM which can easily get mapped with AR9 (and possibly with AR10, provided they are actually mapped like 280 BPM because it fits), and yet they can't get mapped properly without using a static multiplier over a base SV. This is a very rare problem, but it exists. 1/8 can easily exist in the music.
What I propose is that instead of changing a very logical rule, we just expand how multipliers work. Base SV should be able to go over 3,60 (possibly around 4.4 or maybe even 5) and the multipliers should be allowed to reach 0.25x and 2.5x. However, the usage of those should still be moderate, meaning that intentionally doubling SV and then halving it through the entire map just to get one 4x SV slider should not be allowed.
This will allow any kind of representation and I don't think you really need more. This can open enough creativity to create more different things (and things some people consider fun, I don't though) and yet it will still be in moderation. Changes don't have to be really drastic to work. We can always gradually work things out, just like some other rules have.
Though, this means that this becomes a feature request instead. The rules around this are perfectly fine, however the limitations seem outdated. This is why I suggest we don't discuss the change of that rule because it really makes sense, and instead focus on expanding the limitations of the SV itself.
The reason I believe a huge velocity change isn't necessary is because when mapping you should care about presentation. You don't have to have really big changes to make an object represent something in the music, little things can work much better, because they are subtle. That is what makes maps interesting in my opinion. Constantly changing speeds or having really drastic changes can be "cool" but that's all there is to it. The playability suffers (though this can be intentional).
What I do agree with is that the base SV is too limited currently, and should be bigger, simply because of another issue and that is the BPM. There are songs which are very active and uplifting and yet their BPM is too low. There are songs with like 140 BPM which can easily get mapped with AR9 (and possibly with AR10, provided they are actually mapped like 280 BPM because it fits), and yet they can't get mapped properly without using a static multiplier over a base SV. This is a very rare problem, but it exists. 1/8 can easily exist in the music.
What I propose is that instead of changing a very logical rule, we just expand how multipliers work. Base SV should be able to go over 3,60 (possibly around 4.4 or maybe even 5) and the multipliers should be allowed to reach 0.25x and 2.5x. However, the usage of those should still be moderate, meaning that intentionally doubling SV and then halving it through the entire map just to get one 4x SV slider should not be allowed.
This will allow any kind of representation and I don't think you really need more. This can open enough creativity to create more different things (and things some people consider fun, I don't though) and yet it will still be in moderation. Changes don't have to be really drastic to work. We can always gradually work things out, just like some other rules have.
Though, this means that this becomes a feature request instead. The rules around this are perfectly fine, however the limitations seem outdated. This is why I suggest we don't discuss the change of that rule because it really makes sense, and instead focus on expanding the limitations of the SV itself.
AiMod could mention unrecommended SV changes. It would make modding it easier. The same could be applied to 1/12th and 1/16ths notes.
Deleted posts which didn't contain examples or responses to examples. Hid some which were walls-of-text i would feel guilty deleting, but take that as a warning.
Kodora
It actually was a feature request (to allow SV multipliers from osu! mania mode for osu standard) but moved here. I agree with your suggestion very much (however i'd discuss more SV limitation because i already linked linked map what uses x0.13 slider and its works well, + if people can create enough playable x4 slider why should we stop them from rank?). It was reverted to rule change thread due to potential rarely usage of it and because some people was asking for unlimited SV.lolcubes wrote:
What I propose is that instead of changing a very logical rule, we just expand how multipliers work. Base SV should be able to go over 3,60 (possibly around 4.4 or maybe even 5) and the multipliers should be allowed to reach 0.25x and 2.5x. However, the usage of those should still be moderate, meaning that intentionally doubling SV and then halving it through the entire map just to get one 4x SV slider should not be allowed.
This will allow any kind of representation and I don't think you really need more. This can open enough creativity to create more different things (and things some people consider fun, I don't though) and yet it will still be in moderation. Changes don't have to be really drastic to work. We can always gradually work things out, just like some other rules have.
Though, this means that this becomes a feature request instead. The rules around this are perfectly fine, however the limitations seem outdated. This is why I suggest we don't discuss the change of that rule because it really makes sense, and instead focus on expanding the limitations of the SV itself.
The practice of using this new rule should show potential new SV limitatins to create this new feature what you mentiored, but, as Garven said, changing this rule is probably onliest way to change something for now.
Not sure about this, unrecommended SV changes isnt real problem as long as they works well (if it plays bad modders will noticed this just by testplay) and sadly some modders just blindly copy everything what AIMod/AIBAT says.TheVileOne wrote:
AiMod could mention unrecommended SV changes. It would make modding it easier.
I don't consider that a bad thing. AiMod should mention anything that violates a guideline. For convenience experienced modders should be able to check AiMod and know where all the violations are in a map. Newbie modders either already know not to blindly mention things in AiMod or not know what it is used for, because they don't mention non-sense Kiai issues that AiMod points out all the time in maps.
Remember that the mapper needs a good reason to break a guideline. The modder should be considering whether going below 0.5x is necessary and better than using 0.5x. It is so much easier to just ignore the issue completely. It would be nice to see AiMod point out this issue, because it should be unrankable under the current rules, and newer modders should have a place to look for potential issues and make their own judgments. They aren't going to know that it's a guideline or trust their own opinion enough to say it should be changed.
Newbies tend to blindly make changes to their maps. It would be good if a newbie modder blindly points this issue out on a newbie map. It is likely that the newbie will listen and use a different slider velocity.
I don't want to cause a large discussion about this. Is peppy going to decide personally whether this is going to be allowed?
Remember that the mapper needs a good reason to break a guideline. The modder should be considering whether going below 0.5x is necessary and better than using 0.5x. It is so much easier to just ignore the issue completely. It would be nice to see AiMod point out this issue, because it should be unrankable under the current rules, and newer modders should have a place to look for potential issues and make their own judgments. They aren't going to know that it's a guideline or trust their own opinion enough to say it should be changed.
Newbies tend to blindly make changes to their maps. It would be good if a newbie modder blindly points this issue out on a newbie map. It is likely that the newbie will listen and use a different slider velocity.
I don't want to cause a large discussion about this. Is peppy going to decide personally whether this is going to be allowed?
Kodora
kinda agree with you, TVO
Btw, i always forgot about this map
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/126010 (eXtreme) - this map uses a lot of unrankable sliders but it done in way where it perfectly fits the music. For example, 02:40:837 (1,2,3) - x3.00 sliders what plays really good. I asked some of my friends to play them and only few people did 100 here, but everyone agree that they not impossible or unreadable.
And a lot of x0.25 sliders what done as a good alternative for x0.50 to emphazire slowdowns on parts where they placed.
Btw, i always forgot about this map
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/126010 (eXtreme) - this map uses a lot of unrankable sliders but it done in way where it perfectly fits the music. For example, 02:40:837 (1,2,3) - x3.00 sliders what plays really good. I asked some of my friends to play them and only few people did 100 here, but everyone agree that they not impossible or unreadable.
And a lot of x0.25 sliders what done as a good alternative for x0.50 to emphazire slowdowns on parts where they placed.
uhm, peppy, you deleted all of my post where I was actually discussing the examples...
even the one with the new guideline proposition.
even the one with the new guideline proposition.
Kodora
Just one more example why we shouldn't focus on multiplier's numbers.
BARAKO - Otomegokoro x Kyokuchuuhatto -dandara shooting MIX- - 04:09:510 (1) - 370 bpm, x0.13 slider
Hashimoto Miyuki - Especially (Hard) - 01:41:146 (2) - 93 bpm, x0.50 slider
Both maps used same slider velocity - 1.40
Pretty easy to calculate that in fact x0.13 slider on BARAKO is faster than legit x0.50 slider in Especially.
As i said before, SV multipliers are just a numbers what may works very depends on different maps. Only real playability is the main important thing what modders should focus on - we dont need any numbers-related moderation.
BARAKO - Otomegokoro x Kyokuchuuhatto -dandara shooting MIX- - 04:09:510 (1) - 370 bpm, x0.13 slider
Hashimoto Miyuki - Especially (Hard) - 01:41:146 (2) - 93 bpm, x0.50 slider
Both maps used same slider velocity - 1.40
Pretty easy to calculate that in fact x0.13 slider on BARAKO is faster than legit x0.50 slider in Especially.
As i said before, SV multipliers are just a numbers what may works very depends on different maps. Only real playability is the main important thing what modders should focus on - we dont need any numbers-related moderation.
If people in charge understood they should focus on playability instead of numbers and theories you wouldn't be arguing this.
the first map have doubled bpm, so in reality it's a map at 185 bpm with x0.25 sliders, but the used of slow sliders is rightly done, so it's a good example in that ( bad flow in some parts though )Kodora wrote:
Just one more example why we shouldn't focus on multiplier's numbers.
BARAKO - Otomegokoro x Kyokuchuuhatto -dandara shooting MIX- - 04:09:510 (1) - 370 bpm, x0.13 slider
Hashimoto Miyuki - Especially (Hard) - 01:41:146 (2) - 93 bpm, x0.50 slider
Both maps used same slider velocity - 1.40
Pretty easy to calculate that in fact x0.13 slider on BARAKO is faster than legit x0.50 slider in Especially.
As i said before, SV multipliers are just a numbers what may works very depends on different maps. Only real playability is the main important thing what modders should focus on - we dont need any numbers-related moderation.
SPOILER
peppy, please read my post BEFORE DELETING THEM.
And not only short ones, but longer ones too, since I posted:
-the new guideline draft
-commented other uses of SV multipliers
-justified use of SV multipliers
-said how I used SV multipliers
and so in my posts. And I didn't started a fuss over anything. So please, let my mental sanity remain by not deleting my posts randomly and blindly.
And not only short ones, but longer ones too, since I posted:
-the new guideline draft
-commented other uses of SV multipliers
-justified use of SV multipliers
-said how I used SV multipliers
and so in my posts. And I didn't started a fuss over anything. So please, let my mental sanity remain by not deleting my posts randomly and blindly.
this rule does apply only to osu!Standard
Kodora
MAMI ZONE
Ganymede kamome mix
PF concerto No1 'Anti-Ares'
Tatsh - IMAGE -MATERIAL- <Version 0>
some examples of good usage in taiko mode :3
Ganymede kamome mix
PF concerto No1 'Anti-Ares'
Tatsh - IMAGE -MATERIAL- <Version 0>
some examples of good usage in taiko mode :3
Firce777 wrote:
MAMI ZONE
Ganymede kamome mix
PF concerto No1 'Anti-Ares'
Tatsh - IMAGE -MATERIAL- <Version 0>
some examples of good usage in taiko mode :3
Read.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
this rule does apply only to osu!Standard
People do focus on readability. That's the point.Wishy wrote:
If people in charge understood they should focus on playability instead of numbers and theories you wouldn't be arguing this.
Well, if the rule (in reality, guidelines) can be extended to Taiko and CtB, there are no problems, it's the same matter:
"Will the pattern be playable?" and that's to be understood via testplay by various mappers, players and so.
The use of it should be avoided in easier difficulties, though ( SV changes might not be readable for people who barely started* )
*though my examples where deemed readable and good flowing by people who didn't play ( just because it "flowed" with music )
"Will the pattern be playable?" and that's to be understood via testplay by various mappers, players and so.
The use of it should be avoided in easier difficulties, though ( SV changes might not be readable for people who barely started* )
*though my examples where deemed readable and good flowing by people who didn't play ( just because it "flowed" with music )
Kodora
Due to stuff what was mentiored by Ono i guess it can be perfectly usable in Taiko mode.
I guess whe shouldn't do exceptions from this rule for other modes.
I guess whe shouldn't do exceptions from this rule for other modes.
If something is not officially supported by the editor, it is not officially supported, simply put. This functionality is better suited as a feature request rather than a ranking criteria amendment.
Will be denying within 24 hours if no further substantiation is given as to why this should exist as a criteria amendment and not a feature request.
Will be denying within 24 hours if no further substantiation is given as to why this should exist as a criteria amendment and not a feature request.
Eph, if you read the thread, this actually WAS a feature request, but someone (like hmm, peppy ?) suggested to change the rules so editing .osu for certain things was permitted.
Actually, it's probably better, since touching the .osu is not something beginner mappers would do, but pro mapper probably will know how to do it.
Actually, it's probably better, since touching the .osu is not something beginner mappers would do, but pro mapper probably will know how to do it.
not going to make shortcuts in feature development something we compensate for by the ranking criteria - see hold sliders
excuse me? small comprehension questionEphemeral wrote:
not going to make shortcuts in feature development something we compensate for by the ranking criteria - see hold sliders
So you're saying this should be a rule change instead of a feature request (which it is currently)?
Kodora
Yes, this is was feature request to allow SV multipliers from osumania in osu standard. Moved here by woc2006 and reverted to rule change later according to Garven's suggestion:peppy wrote:
@peppy's edit: editing the .osu file is possible, but is against current ranking criteria. Therefore, sliders changed that was are UNRANKABLE at the moment. We either need to change that rule or the editor's possibilities
Current rules already allowes editing .osz for skin-related options and .osu-specific storyboards. Suggested wording will just add one more exception for this.Garven wrote:
Considering how infrequent this would be used, it would be better to amend the editing of osu files rule then continue this movement to allow going beyond the constriction in special cases.
In general, the current editor constriction is adequate for moat playable mapping. As long as such an amendment doesnt bring back hold sliders, I am fine with it.
Moreover, there is other kind of problem: with implimenting new osu!mania editor become possible to create x0.10-x10.0 sliders without editing .osz, but rules wasnt updated according to this. We need this discussion here.
Hold sliders problem was discussed here 2 pages earlier - p/2542798Ephemeral wrote:
not going to make shortcuts in feature development something we compensate for by the ranking criteria - see hold sliders
Just going to add that this rule change here supported not to bring back hold sliders, but for rational usage. For any abuse we have qualified members to pop/unrank map what will have it.
I second that.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
Actually, it's probably better, since touching the .osu is not something beginner mappers would do, but pro mapper probably will know how to do it.
It was arleady largely demonstrated that slower/faster velocity sliders and holding slders are in fact different (arleady posted in the past)Ephemeral wrote:
not going to make shortcuts in feature development something we compensate for by the ranking criteria - see hold sliders
i'm saying it should be a feature request foremost and is thus completely unsuited for discussion as a rule changeZarerion wrote:
excuse me? small comprehension questionEphemeral wrote:
not going to make shortcuts in feature development something we compensate for by the ranking criteria - see hold sliders
So you're saying this should be a rule change instead of a feature request (which it is currently)?