Guest
home
beatmaps
rankings
community
store
help
forum
  1. Forums
  2. Beatmaps
  3. Mapping Discussion
  4. Ranking Criteria
  5. Finalized/Denied Amendments

[Guideline] Mapset accountability

posted
Total Posts
122
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
Shiro
Alright, so current GUIDELINES say:
  1. The number of maps by any mapper should not exceed the number of maps by the uploader: this means that if you have 2 diffs, no guest mapper can have more than 2 diffs; collaboration maps are exempt from this. Ask a BAT if you're unsure of who should upload the mapset.
  2. You should fully map at least one difficulty of a mapset if you are the person who is uploading it. For collaborated beatmap sets, the uploader must be a part of every difficulty. Also, no guest mapper should have more content in the mapset than the creator. It makes no sense to upload a map if you barely contributed to it.
Which doesn't make sense. What this says is that someone can upload a map for which they mapped nothing or close to nothing, and it has never been the intention of anyone. Also, current wording is ambiguous, which is why it was moved to guidelines when it should never have left rules. I would like to reword this into a simple rule:

No guest mapper is allowed to have more difficulties in the mapset than the creator, all modes together. For collaboration mapsets, the uploader must take part in all collab difficulties. The person who should upload the map is the one who contributed most to it.
This still allows guest diff bundles (where each difficulty is mapped by a single mapper), and it allows collaborations with the second part, but it does not allow mapsets such as http://osu.ppy.sh/s/87630 where qoot has two difficulties and the uploader only one.

Things like video, mp3, storyboard, hitsounds and whatnot wouldn't count towards this rule.

Also, do you think we should force mappers to map the hardest difficulty in case of guest diff bundles ?

If there is any situation you people want to see allowed that isn't covered by my wording, please point it out, I'll do my best to fix the wording.
RLC
Elite Mapper
1,007 posts
Joined August 2011
RLC
This seems really logical. I agree (to be honest, I actually thought it had been this way all along, lol; it does make much more sense for something like this to be a Rule).
Full Tablet
2,543 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet
How do you measure "content"?
Marcin
osu! Alumni
4,944 posts
Joined March 2011
Marcin
So that wasn't already a rule?
Anyway - I fully agree with this rule, I hate seeing maps with more content from guests than creator itself, it's not that hard IMO to make Normal, and Insane.
Also - what about Hard / Normal GD's, and Easy from uploader? I think mapper who maps Insane contributes more (even in object placement - there is more objects in Insane, than in Easy) to the mapset, than the one who maps Easy only, and uploads mapset?
Mirage
627 posts
Joined May 2011
Mirage
Support
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
Shiro

Marcin wrote:

Also - what about Hard / Normal GD's, and Easy from uploader? I think mapper who maps Insane contributes more (even in object placement - there is more objects in Insane, than in Easy) to the mapset, than the one who maps Easy only, and uploads mapset?
As much as I hate to see that, I don't think this is something we can force as a rule. People map what they are confident with mapping; I don't think we can or should force them to do things they're not confident with.
I understand where you come form though. Let's see what other people think of that. I'll add that to the first post.
Marcin
osu! Alumni
4,944 posts
Joined March 2011
Marcin

Shiro wrote:

Marcin wrote:

Also - what about Hard / Normal GD's, and Easy from uploader? I think mapper who maps Insane contributes more (even in object placement - there is more objects in Insane, than in Easy) to the mapset, than the one who maps Easy only, and uploads mapset?
As much as I hate to see that, I don't think this is something we can force as a rule. People map what they are confident with mapping; I don't think we can or should force them to do things they're not confident with.
I understand where you come form though. Let's see what other people think of that. I'll add that to the first post.
If it's not going anyhow explained, then the rule should be reworded, because currently the rule (as Full Tablet said) says: "No guest mapper is allowed to have more content" which following the logic - that the content is how many object has mapper placed, then the one who mapped Insane should be uploader.
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
Shiro
Content currently refers to the number of difficulties. I'll reword.
Irreversible
osu! Alumni
4,316 posts
Joined December 2011
Irreversible

Shiro wrote:

Also, do you think we should force mappers to map the hardest difficulty in case of guest diff bundles ?
Ehm, I don't really like this idea because there are several People who map insane diffs pretty well, and if you want a GD from them and they say yes, you have to do something even harder, and.. I don't like that. Maybe it's better if you say something like they have to map at least 1 insane diff, in case there is one - if there is a easy / normal / hard mapset, at least ONE hard diff has to be made of the mapsetowner
Marcin
osu! Alumni
4,944 posts
Joined March 2011
Marcin

Irreversible wrote:

Shiro wrote:

Also, do you think we should force mappers to map the hardest difficulty in case of guest diff bundles ?
Ehm, I don't really like this idea because there are several People who map insane diffs pretty well, and if you want a GD from them and they say yes, you have to do something even harder, and.. I don't like that. Maybe it's better if you say something like they have to map at least 1 insane diff, in case there is one - if there is a easy / normal / hard mapset, at least ONE hard diff has to be made of the mapsetowner
But you know, mapper doesn't need to be so lazy, he can map for example Hard and Normal, and then having Insane from Guest would be in my opinion fine (because having Hard and Normal is rankable, so having Insane guest would just be a nice addition, rather than laziness of mapper).

If mapper uploading mapset, contributes to the mapset with only one difficulty mapped on his own, it cannot be any lower than Insane.
What do you think about this?
Sieg
3,981 posts
Joined February 2012
Sieg
Why we should limit mappers willing to create content in the way they want. Such rule don't affect playability or quality of map and seems ridiculous for me. :/
Marcin
osu! Alumni
4,944 posts
Joined March 2011
Marcin
It's simple - Mapper doing all diffs on his own is having a better mapset than someone having only Easy mapped by them, and all other diffs being guest. While it doesn't affect Gameplay and quality, it rather discourages mappers, where their full spread mapset is being on the same level as the mapset explained above.
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
Shiro

Sieg wrote:

Why we should limit mappers willing to create content in the way they want. Such rule don't affect playability or quality of map and seems ridiculous for me. :/
It does reduce quality - a whole lot. People are just going to map one diff of their own mapsets and have other people do the rest, which makes the entire mapset horribly inconsistent.
Sieg
3,981 posts
Joined February 2012
Sieg

Marcin wrote:

It's simple - Mapper doing all diffs on his own is having a better mapset than someone having only Easy mapped by them, and all other diffs being guest.
Can you give me some examples for this or this just your general thoughts?

Marcin wrote:

While it doesn't affect Gameplay and quality, it rather discourages mappers, where their full spread mapset is being on the same level as the mapset explained above.
Also you shouldn't be discouraged on others mapsets. This is not an contest. Only quality and playability matters and we have BAT filter for this.

Shiro wrote:

It does reduce quality - a whole lot. People are just going to map one diff of their own mapsets and have other people do the rest, which makes the entire mapset horribly inconsistent.
So this why we have a guideline for this. Not a rule. Because you know if host and guest mappers can team well why you limit this.
As for bad ones I wrote already, we have BAT and even now unranking rule.
Marcin
osu! Alumni
4,944 posts
Joined March 2011
Marcin

Sieg wrote:

Marcin wrote:

It's simple - Mapper doing all diffs on his own is having a better mapset than someone having only Easy mapped by them, and all other diffs being guest.
Can you give me some examples for this or this just your general thoughts?
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/79794 Here you are.
Sieg
3,981 posts
Joined February 2012
Sieg

Marcin wrote:

Sieg wrote:

Can you give me some examples for this or this just your general thoughts?
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/79794 Here you are.
Great hard, fine normal, suitable for beginners easy, 9.16 UR, 65 favs ~130k plays
What's wrong with this mapset?
Marcin
osu! Alumni
4,944 posts
Joined March 2011
Marcin

Sieg wrote:

Marcin wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/79794 Here you are.
Great hard, fine normal, suitable for beginners easy, 9.16 UR, 65 favs ~130k plays
What's wrong with this mapset?
Wrong is who puts more effort - guy placing 60 objects, or guy placing 114 objects? That's the point I'm coming to - the one doing most effort in the mapset where one diff is only done on own by mapset owner, should be uploading mapset. I'm not talking about quality, but the effort put into creating this quality.
Irreversible
osu! Alumni
4,316 posts
Joined December 2011
Irreversible

Marcin wrote:

Irreversible wrote:

Ehm, I don't really like this idea because there are several People who map insane diffs pretty well, and if you want a GD from them and they say yes, you have to do something even harder, and.. I don't like that. Maybe it's better if you say something like they have to map at least 1 insane diff, in case there is one - if there is a easy / normal / hard mapset, at least ONE hard diff has to be made of the mapsetowner
But you know, mapper doesn't need to be so lazy, he can map for example Hard and Normal, and then having Insane from Guest would be in my opinion fine (because having Hard and Normal is rankable, so having Insane guest would just be a nice addition, rather than laziness of mapper).
he could also map insane instead of hard, and the guest differ mapps a hard. where's the Problem? :s
Marcin
osu! Alumni
4,944 posts
Joined March 2011
Marcin

Irreversible wrote:

he could also map insane instead of hard, and the guest differ mapps a hard. where's the Problem? :s
There is no problem, but that was just my opinion on this.
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
I'm pretty sure the uploader has to contribute a lot to the mapset by looking for modders and the likes to get the map ranked, while the guest mappers essentially can sit and wait for mods on their maps. Some mappers even let the uploader change stuff in their GD's. Mapping the least in a mapset doesn't necessarily mean they contributed the least to that mapset.

Tbh, I don't see any real problem with how much the uploader contributes to the mapset. Sure, the individual difficulties might have various mapping styles, but that can both be good; variety, or bad; inconsistency, depending on how you want to look at it. And it's nost like 1 mapper can't hve inconsistency between their own difficulties as well, so in that case, properly labeling guest mappers does help any player to expect different mapping styles.

The main problem I have with a limit like this, is basically that you're probably not going to "cure" laziness anyway, so potentially great maps might never get ranked, because they don't have a proper spread.

Oh well.
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
Shiro
If you have nothing other than "whats wrong bro" to add, please refrain from posting. This is not going anywhere.

What Marcin is saying is that someone who mapped an Insane put more effort into the map that someone who mapped lower difficulties, and therefore should be the one uploading the mapset.

The goal of this isn't to prevent laziness, but to give the right people credit for their work.
Marcin
osu! Alumni
4,944 posts
Joined March 2011
Marcin

CXu wrote:

I'm pretty sure the uploader has to contribute a lot to the mapset by looking for modders and the likes to get the map ranked, while the guest mappers essentially can sit and wait for mods on their maps. Some mappers even let the uploader change stuff in their GD's. Mapping the least in a mapset doesn't necessarily mean they contributed the least to that mapset.
So I can as well map 0 diffs, and upload mapset with only guest diffs, and just lurk for some mods, while they do nothing but just apply suggestions?
Irreversible
osu! Alumni
4,316 posts
Joined December 2011
Irreversible

Shiro wrote:

The goal of this isn't to prevent laziness, but to give the right people credit for their work.
the most People call their diffs like idk [username]'s Insane, or even just [username] so I think it's enough for that, what about that:



if there was another Topic called 'Ranked Guest diffs' ? I mean like this they would get credited more, if I understood the Problem right o.o
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu

Shiro wrote:

The goal of this isn't to prevent laziness, but to give the right people credit for their work.
Any guest mapper is aware that their difficulty is, yes, a guest difficulty. If they don't want other people to get that credit, they can upload their own mapset.

Well, if anything, I think being able to change the "mapper" field for guest difficulties would solve that, but then again this isn't a feature request so hurr.

Marcin wrote:

CXu wrote:

I'm pretty sure the uploader has to contribute a lot to the mapset by looking for modders and the likes to get the map ranked, while the guest mappers essentially can sit and wait for mods on their maps. Some mappers even let the uploader change stuff in their GD's. Mapping the least in a mapset doesn't necessarily mean they contributed the least to that mapset.
So I can as well map 0 diffs, and upload mapset with only guest diffs, and just lurk for some mods, while they do nothing but just apply suggestions?
Ehh not really. Actually, I think my problem is how much emphasis is put into having more notes mapped/more maps mapped etc. If contribution here includes storyboard, hitsounds, mods and whatnot, and just that the overall work put into it by the uploader is more than the Guest mappers, I'm fine.

Then again, I wouldn't really complain if that scenario happened either; most likely the person uploading has consent from the diff creator t upload it, and thus there is no reason to shoot it down. If the creator can't be asked to get mods and get it ranked, but his/her friend wants to do it, then I seriously don't see why not.
Last edited by CXu , edited 1 time in total.
Sieg
3,981 posts
Joined February 2012
Sieg

Shiro wrote:

If you have nothing other than "whats wrong bro" to add, please refrain from posting. This is not going anywhere.

What Marcin is saying is that someone who mapped an Insane put more effort into the map that someone who mapped lower difficulties, and therefore should be the one uploading the mapset.

The goal of this isn't to prevent laziness, but to give the right people credit for their work.
So now you talking about effort. Сan you measure effort for each mapper and host in listed above mapset, do not forget that getting mods, handling technical stuff, asking bats requires efoort too. No? So please no need to talk about effort then.
Again as for quality i agree with CXu and wrote pretty much the same thing already.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Stop trying to enforce your weird ideals to others.
You always seem to forget that the guest mappers were okay with it, when the hoster did only the Easy and others did an Insane, a Hard or whatever.

I kind of agree that the hoster should at least have the major contribution or the same amount of contribution than other participants.

But everything else is wrong idealism because people discourage laziness (or call it laziness, without considering that mapping in groups are enjoyable for many and may result in better results mapwise)

Please swallow your misplaced pride.
Thanks
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan

Sieg wrote:

Marcin wrote:

It's simple - Mapper doing all diffs on his own is having a better mapset than someone having only Easy mapped by them, and all other diffs being guest.
Can you give me some examples for this or this just your general thoughts?.
Sadly I have to name my own Mapset: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/50717

It just makes sense if the Uploader Mapper do more as the Guest mappers - at all modes. The example Shiro gave is caused by the Two-Taiko Diff-Rule but I think we should change the current rule to the newer one. And forcing someone to make an Insane is bad, this has been discussed many times and ends with the point that we simply cannot set this as Rule nor guideline.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav

Irreversible wrote:

Shiro wrote:

The goal of this isn't to prevent laziness, but to give the right people credit for their work.
the most People call their diffs like idk [username]'s Insane, or even just [username] so I think it's enough for that, what about that:



if there was another Topic called 'Ranked Guest diffs' ? I mean like this they would get credited more, if I understood the Problem right o.o
t/115773
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
Shiro
Effort is here only defined as number of difficulties mapped.

Having a map ranked is not a given. It's a priviledge. The effort needed to push the map through the ranking process is in no way related to the content of the map itself, which is being discussed here. In fact, all the people who were going against this were off-topic, bringing in things that aren't related to the discussion.

If you want to rank a map, you have to go through additional procedures to obtain that. Uploading a map does not give you the right to have it ranked right away. This needs extra effort. This discussion is about who should upload the map, before even wondering whether or not the uploader is going to push it through the ranking process. Any talk referring to said process is off-topic.
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
No, discussing the rankability is not off-topic in this discussion. If the map is going to stay unranked, then anyone can upload it, as long as they have consent from the creator.
And efforts and contributions to that unranked map doesn't matter either.
Because unranked maps doesn't have to follow rules anyway.
So yeah, discussing ranking is relevant.
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
Shiro
Yes, exactly. The purpose of this is to make mapsets uploaded by the wrong person unrankable because they were uploaded by the wrong person. But they're still uploadable. Arguments such as "ranking a map needs effort" are unrelated because we're not looking at the process itself, but the content of the mapset regardless of where it's going.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Getting a map ranked should be solely based on the map's quality, neither on the put effort or who made what. It's a privilege to get it ranked for good quality, however this good quality was created.

The accountability issue can be hugely solved with pushing my feature request, convincing peppy to implement this minor feature of huge effect. If the request would be assigned, this entire topic would be pointless.

But for now, yes, , new version makes sense to me and I approve it.
But please do not try to compare "what should be ranked" with "what have you done for it", because when ranking a map, ONLY the map self counts - nothing else.
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
All right, I think I get what you're trying to say.
I still don't agree with the rule fully though.
A situation as I described with one person mapping, but another one uploading it with their consent, should still be rankable. It's probably, a rare situation, but in said case, the uploader has been given the priviledge of ranking that map from the creator.

As long as there is no "content stealing", rankability should only take into account the mapset itself, not who mapped it. (So something like Loctav just said).
Shohei Ohtani
Shohei Ohtani
haha are we going to do this

If someone else has more diffs than you in a mapset then that means they should have uploaded it since they have more content.

Otherwise it's fine

This rule makes that clearer, by expressing other modes, since that has been unclear lately, and has been subject to a lot of discussion because of said unclarity.

Like calm down guys this isn't that serious omg.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
The only reason it was a guideline was for extreme situations like bmin's case, treat it as a rule otherwise.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those

Sakura wrote:

The only reason it was a guideline was for extreme situations like bmin's case, treat it as a rule otherwise.
Guidelines ARE rules, with the exception that it can be seen otherwise in EXTREME circumstances.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Exactly, but people seem to have forgotten about that, so that's why I mentioned it.
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11
/offtopic

I don't remember being an exception, ever
Shohei Ohtani
Shohei Ohtani

bmin11 wrote:

/offtopic

I don't remember being an exception, ever
I think Sakura is referring to this: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/12168

Although it wasn't ranked (And it was 3-4 years ago) so idunno.
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11
I had to exclude my names from the diff and "consider" those as ouran's difficulties. So, the rule still applied.



EDIT: Here is the ranked version
Last edited by bmin11 , edited 1 time in total.
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
Shiro
The feedback I've been getting so far is largely positive. I'm giving this another week.
Ulysses
1,911 posts
Joined September 2010
Ulysses

CDFA wrote:

bmin11 wrote:

/offtopic

I don't remember being an exception, ever
I think Sakura is referring to this: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/12168

Although it wasn't ranked (And it was 3-4 years ago) so idunno.
I dun get why it is a exception even the creator has mapped nothing.
Zexous
713 posts
Joined July 2012
Zexous
This should never have been moved away from a rule, I do indeed feel intense disgust whenever I see a mapset with like 10 diffs and only one is the actual mapper...
What Loctav said is the ideal. Ideally, the ranking process would only take the content into accountability. However, if the ideal were the case, we'd have more graved maps ranked, and a LOT less ranked maps unranked. Realistically, the ranking process today takes the mapper into account just as much as the actual mapset itself.

And no, the mapset owner should not be forced to map the highest diff.
Kodora
Kodora

Shiro wrote:

No guest mapper is allowed to have more difficulties in the mapset than the creator, all modes together. For collaborations, the uploader must participate in all at least half of the difficulties of the mapset. The person who should upload the map is the one who contributed most to it.
Yes. Awesome wording. Pretty agree with it.
[Luanny]
8,248 posts
Joined April 2011
[Luanny]
I agree, totally
I thought that was already a rule btw o_o
I don't know about forcing the mapper to make the hardest difficulty. This should never be forced, but letting a map be ranked with easy by X, normal by Y and hard by Z, X being the host sounds kinda wrong imo.
Kodora
Kodora
As a little suggestion to current wording i think would be nice to add point here like "uploader cant own only easiest diffs in mapset". I think this is a little unfair when uploader map only easy/normal diff, take other diffs as guests and count this map as his own. It is not like forcing uploader to make hardest diff in mapset, but prevents from ranking mapsets like this or this
Last edited by Kodora , edited 1 time in total.
Marcin
osu! Alumni
4,944 posts
Joined March 2011
Marcin
I just tried to explain it the whole two pages.... screw it.
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
Shiro
I can't actually force that because of the largely negative feedback towards this part. There needs to be a consensus regarding this before I can add it to the rules.
[Luanny]
8,248 posts
Joined April 2011
[Luanny]

Kodora wrote:

As i a little suggestion to current wording i think would be nice to add point here like "uploader cant own only easiest diffs in mapset". I think this is a little unfair when uploader map only easy/normal diff, take other diffs as guests and count this map as his own. It is not like forcing uploader to make hardest diff in mapset, but prevents from ranking mapsets like this or this
worse
Even tho I kinda agree with this, would be unfair to mappers that don't like mapping insane diffs (I am one of them)
Natsu
8,076 posts
Joined September 2012
Natsu

Kodora wrote:

As i a little suggestion to current wording i think would be nice to add point here like "uploader cant own only easiest diffs in mapset". I think this is a little unfair when uploader map only easy/normal diff, take other diffs as guests and count this map as his own. It is not like forcing uploader to make hardest diff in mapset, but prevents from ranking mapsets like this or this
that sound nice kodora but if the mapper gonna do the hight diff but what about he just submited easy/normal cuz he cant map hard/insane diffs? this just make the map worse, forcing mappers to map the diff they dont want or they cant is just bad and make the mapset quality bad just saying
show more
Please sign in to reply.

New reply

0
1 / 122