I disagree with this, because I'm the one who said and wrote this down one year ago, which I actually just referred to Oni difficulties, not Muzukashii, Futsuu or Kantan since there were no Taiko-sets at that time. So I doubt that there is any justified said word about this.

Right now it is rather a restriction for the mapper to vary with different OD and HPs in a Taiko-set.
In the past we were able to have e.g. Kantan: 3/3, Futsuu 4/4, Muzu 5/5 and Oni 6/6.
Now it would need to be 4/4 - 5/5 - 6/6 - 7/7

Level 1~3 has been not considered anymore, but these settings are especially for Kantan and Futsuu important. With the current rule, Futsuu diffs can have really quick a setting of 5/5 which is the level of a Muzukashii.

4~7 HP/OD for Oni is okay, but Muzukashii, Futsuu and Kantan are another rubric here so I suggest to move this back to guidelines or change the rule to something like

Oni 4~7 HP/OD
Muzu, Futsuu, Kantan 1~6 HP/OD

Post: p/2401926

Well yeah, this bugged sometimes and I've wondered why does this stands there. Honestly I would say OD2 should be the Minimum. OD1 seems to be.. too easy. As well for HP. OD7 should only be used for approved Maps. It would look weird from the contrast if a potentially easy Oni got such a high OD. And an approved Beatmap is normally purposed to be hard (BPM, complex pattern) so they should only have the priviliege to contain OD/HP7.

Let me just give my 2c on this.

Lower drain in lower diffs doesn't matter, because the note density is so small that even with really high drain you are already maxed out halfway.
Higher OD should always be encouraged without thinking it's too "hard", because this is a rhythm game. Low OD can only help really bad maps because they might have really stupid rhythms (rare cases where songs are really derp), or if the song cannot be timed correctly. I still think OD4 is quite okay for lowest, because if you take a look at the OD table, OD4 should be something like +-54ms, which is plenty.

Basically the current rule makes sense. The only thing which causes confusion is that they affect the star rating and they make lower diff mapsets appear as "I" or "H", but as I said, that really doesn't matter. That will get changed at some point anyway. :p

The HP drain shouldn't be too low even for lower diffs, otherwise one can pass with ridiculously small number of notes being hit. OD I would stay neutral that 4 is pretty good for lowest diff and 3 is the maximum, but 1 is simply too low.

I always stay all 5, for all diffs lol. still use the old setup for taiko diffs.

Well, I doubt anyone is using level 1 or 2. But level 3 is still a common use which shouldn't be just banned because of wrong interpretation from old words. :/

3 for longer songs. 3minutes or more
4 for shorter/tv size: 2minutes or below

Should work fine :p

Please don't put OD>7 on any maps; it's retarded in so many ways it should be obvious to anyone. And OD<3 is like playing a game on PS3 - just push random buttons to win. Kantan's and Futsuu's should promote a healthy learning curve and even OD4 does not really do the justice here. Lifedrain is useless - unless you fail a map with 90% but this only means that mapper should feel bad.

I'll say that the lower the difficulty the higher HP drain should be. Why? It's to balance the gain and drain on all levels. As about OD... I think 7 is max, because it's already 10 with HR. But that doesn't mean that you can put OD7 on any map... it depends on the song imo.

end of 2 cents

I think the main problem about discussing this issue is that most people will probably have different thoughts about how difficult the different difficulty levels should be, at the same time all of these different opinions will probably accept each other if one of them gets ranked.

Personally I think there should only be two guidelines to this issue. First one is that OD and HP drain at 7 or above really isn't recommended, and second one is that OD 5 and HP drain 5 is recommended for insane/oni difficulties. Beside this I think the mapper themself should manage to use their own judgement to think what would be a suitable OD and HP drain, perhaps they could test the map a few times to find out what they think suits most, and if someone disagrees with their OD and HP drain, they should state in their mod post that they suggest changing it to what they think is right and state of best ability why they think it should be changed.

If you happen to be a new mapper taiko mapper trying to make some taiko mapset and really have no idea what OD and HP drain you can use you could probably just copy it from some other ranked taiko mapset, it should probably turn out fine enough temporarily at least.

@God of Taiko: Not so God at all.

Of course OD 7 is pretty hard to be played and actually it isn't even a recommendation to use it. But prohibit it isn't a solution either. Sometimes there are really well timed songs which can carry such setting in a fair way to the player. It would be a waste not to use it in certain situations. Also it would restrict mapping once again for no real reason(At least I don't see a reason for the restriction yet).
A consense can be easily found in modding. But if it should happen that such a map gets ranked, the mapper can see how people react to it and consider afterwards if he is gonna use such OD again or not(though this can happen in modding already).

Kantan's should be able to have OD 3, too. I checked many times in real-life how people who never played rythm games tried to play a Kantan. It was a disaster even with the lowest settings. And if it is said that lower drain in lower diffs dosn't matter, than it shouldn't matter if people use their OD 3.
So even here I see no reason why to restrict mapping again.

It is a real pitty that there is a restriction for the HP-lvl too, especially for maps which could use an higher HP than 7. Since the beginning the HP-bar never had a real effect on better players. Only if there is a usage of HR. And as far as I know, many like this thrill of not beeing sure if they pass the map or not. With higher HP rates it is possible to get out this thrill in a higher intense, which is at the moment rather in offline-maps possible.

So I demand for the whole HP spectrum since it dosen't effect the game-play itself at all.
I also want to mention it once again, I was the one who mentioned this one year ago, even if the rule is now on its own, but I had my own ideas/reasons behind this whole HP and OD-setting. It was a guideline which was just dedicated to Oni. But now it is -more or less- suddenly a rule which applies to all diffs., and real reasons are not given, just a discussion between player/mappers with their own preferences.


I posted this because I see no solution if we keep talking about preferences and because yet, there is no argument which makes this rule stable enough.(At least it hasn't been mentioned yet)

agu wrote:

SPOILER

Beside this I think the mapper themself should manage to use their own judgement to think what would be a suitable OD and HP drain, perhaps they could test the map a few times to find out what they think suits most, and if someone disagrees with their OD and HP drain, they should state in their mod post that they suggest changing it to what they think is right and state of best ability why they think it should be changed.

I agree with this.

This can be shifted to a guideline if appropriate usages of the lower/higher values are appropriately documented and explained.

Shifting it would be possible. But for now I'm still waiting for the reason why this rule has been setteled. If there is none, there is no reason for a guideline either.
That's what I think at least, after all it worked all the years without a rule or guidelines pretty good and I explained why this rule dosen't work at all.

My guess is to prevent people from having really stupid diff settings (remember all those OD9 taiko maps? Or those OD1 Oni maps?).

OnosakiHito wrote:

agu wrote:

SPOILER

Beside this I think the mapper themself should manage to use their own judgement to think what would be a suitable OD and HP drain, perhaps they could test the map a few times to find out what they think suits most, and if someone disagrees with their OD and HP drain, they should state in their mod post that they suggest changing it to what they think is right and state of best ability why they think it should be changed.

I agree with this.

I agree with this as well, but I don't agree with using an OD lower than necessary. On onis and above I'd like to always encourage using a moderately high OD, the value depending on the difficulty on the map but for the goal of increasing the competitive compatibility of it. I like a challenge, but I don't like to restrict this challenge to object density and pattern difficulty alone. I think it's a common misconception that increasing the OD gets rid of the availability for "less skilled players". This will not be the case as chances are they'll keep their scores albeit of course with a slightly lower accuracy, but the "higher skilled" scene will with difficulty increasing mods have far more options for competition. If anything this would get rid of these countless toplists filled to the brim with the same mod SSes and bring more room for replayability and improvement of your scores for players of all levels.

As long as the HP and OD can be reasoned by the mapper, it's fine for me. Just having him cut off his setting because of the current rule is meh. :/

Ya, leave it to the mapper to decide (within reason of course).

As far as I can see, people agree to leave the decision of OD/HP settings to the mapper as long as it is reasonable.
If it shouldn't be reasonable it can be modded away, especially by the up-coming Taiko BATs.

I'm not sure when it happened the last time that someone used OD 1 or 9 as lolcubes said, but I doubt it was in nowadays time. I might be wrong.

Let's wait for some more opinions.

Seems like there are no other opinions yet.

Right now most people in this thread support the deletion of this rule. Also there was no real argument for keeping it.
Are we ready to take the next step?

We are. Let's give it 48 hours to give it a final run.

I agree that OD/HP should be up to the mapper as long as it is set with good reasoning.

HP is something up to the mappers' discretion. If the mapper deliberately wants to make a map that targets to pros (Firce for example), as long as it doesn't get stupid hard to pass (Imagine Firce Force on HP10, just imagine), this can be left okay. Anything above HP8 will become too cruel to be passed.

A small chart with all HP drain rates, over 100 notes (based on observations):



As you can see, HP drain rate starts to be cruel starting from 8 (You would have full life by getting a rough S with 95.xx acc - and getting around 50 misses makes you fail, while ~90 are needed on HP5 for example.). The mapper needs to balance well the HP drain rate (some people have mentioned high HP drain because of low density for some oni maps) with the chart. If a chart is hard, the preferred rate would be 4 to 6. For easier and calmer maps, 8 can be accepted. 9 and 10 will be by no means allowed unless highly special cases.

As for OD, most mappers like to use 5 and 6 for their good timing leniency, some use 7 to stick more to the actual Taiko games (Zekira has mentioned that it is around OD 7.5). The actual thing is, these ODs are okay for most songs. Slower songs tend to have higher and higher time between their beats, which can make players getting low accuracy on higher OD due to timing mistakes (the difference between 38 and 40 BPM is the same as 152 and 160).

I wouldn't change people's hobbies on OD, but there are two things to take into account :
The speed of the song, if too slow, can lead to inaccurate play with incorrect OD. Hell, the opposite can be done too : OD1 on 160 BPM, and get a crapload of SSes with HR/HD+DT.
The timing of the song. If this song has an unstable BPM (live performances or the composer being just nuts), no need to put more trouble on the players side.


If my post has weird sentences, call me in game if I'm not here. If not, make an answer with quotations of what you haven't understood.

So at the end everyone agrees to delete this rule.

removing this is fine but a guideline for acceptable use should be implemented in its place

I doubt that a guideline works here, since there has been doubts if Drain shouldnt be higher on easier maps.
Also Standard doesnt provide such guidelines, too. I am sure our capable BATs notice weird diff settings as good as in Standard - so modding process is sufficiently fixing this - without the need of an guideline.

Yet it could be considered, but I, personally, see no need.