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[Rule]Approval criteria

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Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy

Sakura wrote:

The initial reason for approval mapsets to exist was so that very long marathons that had millions of score which could break the rankings would be able to have a scoreboard, it wasn't intended for super fast songs that cause a lot of hitobjects to go over said maximum score, which people abused and should have been hybrid mapsets (ranked + approved diff).
The reason Approval didn't need a full spread it's because it's tiring to make a full spread for super long songs, hence why all the other songs should have gone hybrid rather than full on approval with 1 hard diff.

Right now Approval is for gimmick maps and Marathons (6 minute or more) which should suffice, why can't people just map full spreads?
Because some poeple does not have fun mapping easy difficulties. You can't really go and make some really original and fun easy/normals because that's what thety are, easies, the moment you include something weird it's already over the difficulty limit. Then again hards are still way too simple, the only tier w/o a limit is Insane, and that's where you can get off with anything w/o having people cry because of difficulty.

By forcing people to map stuff they don't like you will only get bad results (or none at all).
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Hmm, fair enough.

I still disagree, but I'm not going to deny this right off the bat, I still believe people should really make easier difficulties for their mapsets or else we will end up with what Taiko was doing before the enforcement came in.

Feel free to continue discussing tho.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

Wishy wrote:

Because some poeple does not have fun mapping easy difficulties. You can't really go and make some really original and fun easy/normals because that's what thety are, easies, the moment you include something weird it's already over the difficulty limit. Then again hards are still way too simple, the only tier w/o a limit is Insane, and that's where you can get off with anything w/o having people cry because of difficulty.

By forcing people to map stuff they don't like you will only get bad results (or none at all).
I guess that the tone of my other post caused it to be deleted. There is nothing about easier difficulties which excuses either boringness or gimmickry. It is entirely plausible to make the entire set varied and fun. There is no excuse not to simplify a song to its basic groove. As long as the song isn't bland and awful, there will be a lot of different, simpler rhythms to map.

If you can't map good easier difficulties, then learn how to do so. Conceptually, it isn't hard. It only takes some thought about consistence and subtle variance. If you don't want to learn on your own, then ask somebody who can make them well and learn from them.
popner
osu! Alumni
2,407 posts
Joined March 2011
Topic Starter
popner

Wishy wrote:

Sakura wrote:

The initial reason for approval mapsets to exist was so that very long marathons that had millions of score which could break the rankings would be able to have a scoreboard, it wasn't intended for super fast songs that cause a lot of hitobjects to go over said maximum score, which people abused and should have been hybrid mapsets (ranked + approved diff).
The reason Approval didn't need a full spread it's because it's tiring to make a full spread for super long songs, hence why all the other songs should have gone hybrid rather than full on approval with 1 hard diff.

Right now Approval is for gimmick maps and Marathons (6 minute or more) which should suffice, why can't people just map full spreads?
Because some poeple does not have fun mapping easy difficulties. You can't really go and make some really original and fun easy/normals because that's what thety are, easies, the moment you include something weird it's already over the difficulty limit. Then again hards are still way too simple, the only tier w/o a limit is Insane, and that's where you can get off with anything w/o having people cry because of difficulty.

By forcing people to map stuff they don't like you will only get bad results (or none at all).
No, not this. If mapper don't map easier difficulty only because he "don't like to", his map shouldn't be considered to be approved because this is lazy-mapping. The new approval criteria I suggested is for those "very difficult maps that will need a lot of works to map a full spread" AND in a situation that the limit really prevent something good from ranking.
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare
fuck i'm gonna regret this

How about this compromise.
"Mapsets need to be ranked with a full spread containing at least a [Normal] unless there is already a ranked mapsets with lowdiffs for this specific song. If that's the case, it can go for Approval with only an Insane diff."

Beginners don't care about different versions of a map, they just want to play the song. if they have one already, they don't >need< another one.
This would mean that every song mapped for this game gets it's lowdiffs (that aren't even needed) but mappers regain some of their freedom, at least for already ranked songs
popner
osu! Alumni
2,407 posts
Joined March 2011
Topic Starter
popner

Zarerion wrote:

fuck i'm gonna regret this

How about this compromise.
"Mapsets need to be ranked with a full spread containing at least a [Normal] unless there is already a ranked mapsets with lowdiffs for this specific song. If that's the case, it can go for Approval with only an Insane diff."

Beginners don't care about different versions of a map, they just want to play the song. if they have one already, they don't >need< another one.
This would mean that every song mapped for this game gets it's lowdiffs (that aren't even needed) but mappers regain some of their freedom, at least for already ranked songs
I've considered this too. This will discourage speed ranking(because for 1st ranked version, a full spread is needed). But it is something irrelevant to approval criteria actually. And the purposes are different.
Jenny
2,200 posts
Joined November 2010
Jenny
Yej, approved Force of Wind!
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
I think the approval definition needs to change with the times. At some point it was necessary to keep approval maps only for long songs, but now there is an even more need to satisfy certain song types. It's called approval maps. BATs should have the ability to approve them. If you have a specific rule about whats allowed, they can't approve/disapprove, just follow the criteria just like any other rule. It makes no difference. Bring back the real reason the category was named approval. It will work much better with the new ranking system.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy

Zarerion wrote:

fuck i'm gonna regret this

How about this compromise.
"Mapsets need to be ranked with a full spread containing at least a [Normal] unless there is already a ranked mapsets with lowdiffs for this specific song. If that's the case, it can go for Approval with only an Insane diff."

Beginners don't care about different versions of a map, they just want to play the song. if they have one already, they don't >need< another one.
This would mean that every song mapped for this game gets it's lowdiffs (that aren't even needed) but mappers regain some of their freedom, at least for already ranked songs
This would be great. mapsets like http://osu.ppy.sh/s/79696 could end up ranked by just adding some generic [Normal] and maybe a [Hard] in there. Not being sarcastic, you are absolutely right, beginners don't need 5000 different [Easy] and [Normal]s. Your idea was already applied tho: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/7932 See how there is a single [Easier] diff and then you got lots of hard insanes. Inb4 people comes and cries "but a lot of people can't play that mapset because easy is boring and the other diffs are too hard!!!!!".

And D33d sorry but you are not gonna convince me, I still think Easy/Normal are just plain boring and generic at most and even Hards can barely be something else. God even most insanes are barely average.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
What people forget is that old approval maps did not count towards ranked score. I believe this is why they were allowed to exist.
Today, everything counts towards pp score, even marathons, which is probably one of the reasons why the old approval criteria is gone.

Also, while we all want more good Insanes, as long as Hard diffs are statistically most played, you can't really say that Insanes are what people are looking for the most.
(I am aware that a lot of pp farmers spam those hards though, but numbers don't lie sadly)
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
Under that logic, then there should at least be a hard in the mapset. It's not uncalled for. Any map can have a Hard difficulty regardless of BPM.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
That was my point, basically, yes.
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare

lolcubes wrote:

Also, while we all want more good Insanes, as long as Hard diffs are statistically most played, you can't really say that Insanes are what people are looking for the most.
(I am aware that a lot of pp farmers spam those hards though, but numbers don't lie sadly)
could you show me these statistics? what are they based on?
I remember hearing the same thing - in early 2012. I'd like to know whether this still is true.
popner
osu! Alumni
2,407 posts
Joined March 2011
Topic Starter
popner
In pp system people are free to play any maps, and ranking a new map will not affect the toplimit of pp. Thus the change of approval criteria will not lead to a change in pp system.
Actually, I like to put a lot of retrys in app maps, even I can't pass some of them. Those maps are challenging enough for me to warm up.(And I expect a trail that can refresh my record during this process.) And not to mention, lots of the epic replays are in these app maps.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
If we keep talking about this we will end up in the actual conclusion: a proper diff spread is required.

Maybe just add a category for maps that don't follow some "proper rules" and make them not count towards pp? Then you could rank all those insane only maps there, let them have a scoreboard, and that's it. It would be a section where all you do is freeze maps so they can't get modified, give them a scoreboard so people can compete against each other, and well there is no down side...
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Approval should be reserved to Marathons and Gimmicks maps, and as now it's like this.
Approval can be for UltraInsane maps(that can in fact incorporate some gimmick!), but PLEASE create Hybrid ( One Approved, rest Ranked for example ) mapset instead of one-diff mapset if you can, since almost all songs can be "simplified". And please try to include a good spread so most people can enjoy it.

We could consider map that not respect some rules, but are still fun and entertaining to play as Gimmicks
plus, we could lift the "need one difficulty with less than 3 stars" in map that were already ranked 2-3 times ( but actually force the "minimum spread is 3" rule) as a compromise(and still consider them rankable).

And no, don't lament the fact you can't map 3 good diffs... since you can ask the 2 guest diffs as long they complete the spread ( Normal/Hard, for example ) and are mapped by different person than you (to mantain the accountability)
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris
I'll say just leave it as it is.

I remember that it has been said (by peppy?) that the only difference between ranked and app maps are the score effect --- that is significant in terms of score ranking, but this is not the case now --- so ranked and approved are now basically similar --- and only marathon map is left approved because most of them still got ridiculous score and we want to preserve minimum order for the score ranking.

App map is no longer 'special' comparing with the ranked ones and then structually we should try to make the full spread to meet ranking criteria.

Nyquill wrote:

Marathons are supposed to be tests of endurance. It isn't much of a test of endurance if all I am doing is falling asleep for six minutes as much as a map that is shorter (but not too short) but high in note density.
Marathon maps are maps on a marathon song but not a special test --- some sort of relavent assessment when you try to master the map but not really 'supposed to'. Resist to fall asleep during gameplay is also part of endurance :P

Frostmourne wrote:

Sakura wrote:

Because it's for Marathons, not long songs.
Classify it as "Marathon" rather than "Approval" then.
If it's for "Marathons" then why it used to be an approval once in a past. Some amazing maps like https://osu.ppy.sh/s/38697 https://osu.ppy.sh/s/22173 and so on. They don't need to be a ranked map but people can enjoy it as well.
Approval =/= Marathon , pls understand
In the past maps are approved while reached a relatively low difficulty limit or score limit. Now the rules changed. Some of them might not fall on the recent approval criteria but their status of being approved but being held. Rename the category results in inaccuracy in descibing those songs.

Very much like what Sakura said, as the nature of approved criteria stands any maps other than marathon shall be rejected, and the no one diff rule is to be attacked --- and seek for putting gimmick map(?) in the ranked side --- not the approved one.
Nyquill
osu! Alumni
1,781 posts
Joined February 2011
Nyquill

wmfchris wrote:

I'll say just leave it as it is.
Unfortunately, something does have to be changed, or at least added, to address cases like https://osu.ppy.sh/s/93850, where the drain was 5:55.



Current rule wrote:

Approved Category is only for Marathon maps. Long maps with over 6 minutes of draining time fit the Approval category. Only then they are allowed to be single difficulty mapsets. If they are below 6 minutes of draining time, a full difficulty spread is needed and the map will have to be ranked instead.
I'm proposing the new rule:

New rule wrote:

Approved Category is only for Marathon maps. Long maps with over 6 minutes of draining time fit the Approval category. Only then they are allowed to be single difficulty mapsets. If they are below 6 minutes of draining time, a full difficulty spread is needed and the map will have to be ranked instead.
Exceptions of extreme cases will be handled on a case by case basis by the BAT.
Or we can do what popner said.

popner wrote:

Some envisagements are:
1. Move the rule to guideline. If a mapper requests an approving(for songs shorter than 6 mins), a discussion will be raised in BAT to decide whether it is approvable.
Either way, time based constraints are really bad in the sense that things like "oh but I'm 15 seconds off wtfffff" can happen.

TheVileOne wrote:

I think the approval definition needs to change with the times. At some point it was necessary to keep approval maps only for long songs, but now there is an even more need to satisfy certain song types. It's called approval maps. BATs should have the ability to approve them. If you have a specific rule about whats allowed, they can't approve/disapprove, just follow the criteria just like any other rule. It makes no difference. Bring back the real reason the category was named approval. It will work much better with the new ranking system.
Really does kill the meaning of the word "approval" doesn't it :P
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris
If the 'exceptional cases' implies 'wtf 5 seconds short from 6 minutes wtfwtfwtf' only it make sense but others type of maps that fight for approval do not work as said above.

The grey zone should better be defined clearly as well. Today someone might want to approve a map with 5:58, tomorrow a map with 5:40, and next week we've got a 5:00 map approved, that shouldn't happen. I would suggest adding a clear cut limit where discussions for whether the map is approvable applies (like 5:30 - 6:00) and, (might not neccessary to appear on the criteria) the shorter the song is, the tougher assessment on approvability.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Make approval = no pp no need to map easy diffs. I think nobody really cares about try not to fall asleep marathon maps, there are only a few and then again approval, today, is just "if you want to map a 6 min + song you can avoid mapping easy diffs, else this is useless". I mean the whole category is pointless, how many maps got approved so far on 2013? 12, less than 4 are actual marathons, the other 8 are just long songs...
Last edited by Wishy , edited 1 time in total.
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
eldnl
I'm pretty sure that a map shouldn't exceed 3 mins long, after that it's just annoying and boring ... if it is boring to play, trust me, it will be a pain to map, every map that exceed 3:30 mins long or so should be able for approval
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
I suggest you stop discussing about "time", when you say 3:30, I may ask for mi 3:25 map to get approved, if you say yes, then someone else may ask for his 3:20 (since apparently the limit is 3:25 now) and so on.
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare
Do you guys even read the thread.

Going in circles again. I suggest to lock and try with the next thread in a week or two again. we're slowly making progress. maybe. hopefully...
Nyquill
osu! Alumni
1,781 posts
Joined February 2011
Nyquill

Zarerion wrote:

Do you guys even read the thread.

Going in circles again. I suggest to lock and try with the next thread in a week or two again. we're slowly making progress. maybe. hopefully...
Most people don't read threads and barge in and go about their own things. Quite frustrating really.

I wouldn't write this off just yet, we still have some unclosed discussions.

wmfchris wrote:

the shorter the song is, the tougher assessment on approvability.
Thats what I've been trying to advocate for all along :p
Frostmourne
osu! Alumni
3,733 posts
Joined November 2009
Frostmourne
As for aspect from a player not a mapper, it has been always great to play those approval maps seriously(I don't go play for those easier diffs anyways).
I don't understand why people want to keep it and argue about score limiting. (You may want an easier diffs such as an Hard diff to let everyone enjoy, seriously this doesn't make sense at all when some people who are incapable in playing want to go for an easy diff or either a normal diff. (assume that you are talking about "2 diffs with Hard and Insane in Approval"

eldnl wrote:

I'm pretty sure that a map shouldn't exceed 3 mins long, after that it's just annoying and boring ... if it is boring to play, trust me, it will be a pain to map, every map that exceed 3:30 mins long or so should be able for approval
I'm not going to get any attention but half of my ranked maps are more than 3.30 mins long and I have been frustrated with something like this for almost a year. Especially my latest map, an Insane has no break which I think it suits best for an approval but then again, limit about length again and again.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
The only issue I have with removing pp from approval maps is that marathon maps aren't breaking any hard rules. Why should we be removing the possibility of marathons getting pp for the sake of more lenient rules about approval maps. With that being said if these maps could be ranked without pp being applied, everyone would be happy. If the map isn't worth pp then less people will play it and those who want to play it will still play it and the maps wont get condemned to being unranked forever.

Also I'm not really sure if it was such a huge issue as people made it out to be when the rule for approval maps was changed. It's okay to say that it wasn't fair for newer players, but I doubt very many newbie players complain that there isn't an Easy difficulty for Big Black. In theory it is good to appease to everyone, but in practice it doesn't make complete sense to make difficulties that not many players are going to try to begin with. Songs that people would not want to play casually should be exempt from having a full spread; a partial spread will suffice.

I wouldn't mind requiring a Hard mode as a criteria for approval rank and depending on BPM, and intensity of the map the BATs can set a vote on whether it should be allowed or not. There must be at least 8 BATs more than the general consensus that feel like this map doesn't need a full spread to satisfy the large majority of the people who will download the map.

We shouldn't be wasting mapper's time and effort is what I'm saying.
popner
osu! Alumni
2,407 posts
Joined March 2011
Topic Starter
popner
Add wmf's idea in op:
Over 6 mins maps -> approve.
Under 6 mins gimmick maps -> rank after a BAT discussion and 3 BATs' check
[Luxord]
503 posts
Joined August 2011
[Luxord]

theowest wrote:

Zarerion wrote:

Instead of maximum score, go with note density.
I think this sounds like a good idea.
That would be neat.

I agree with Popner, some maps can be good enough to fit the approval but they are not that long to meet the standard.
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
eldnl

TheVileOne wrote:

The only issue I have with removing pp from approval maps is that marathon maps aren't breaking any hard rules. Why should we be removing the possibility of marathons getting pp for the sake of more lenient rules about approval maps. With that being said if these maps could be ranked without pp being applied, everyone would be happy. If the map isn't worth pp then less people will play it and those who want to play it will still play it and the maps wont get condemned to being unranked forever.

Also I'm not really sure if it was such a huge issue as people made it out to be when the rule for approval maps was changed. It's okay to say that it wasn't fair for newer players, but I doubt very many newbie players complain that there isn't an Easy difficulty for Big Black. In theory it is good to appease to everyone, but in practice it doesn't make complete sense to make difficulties that not many players are going to try to begin with. Songs that people would not want to play casually should be exempt from having a full spread; a partial spread will suffice.

I wouldn't mind requiring a Hard mode as a criteria for approval rank and depending on BPM, and intensity of the map the BATs can set a vote on whether it should be allowed or not. There must be at least 8 BATs more than the general consensus that feel like this map doesn't need a full spread to satisfy the large majority of the people who will download the map.

We shouldn't be wasting mapper's time and effort is what I'm saying.
Leaving those maps without giving pp is a mistake, every map must give pp, by the way, why pp has to be involved?
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

KiyoshiX101 wrote:

I agree with Popner, some maps can be good enough to fit the approval but they are not that long to meet the standard.
Define: "good enough to fit approval" and on that note define "approval"

Since maps giving high ammounts of score arent an issue anymore Ranked and Approved got merged, the only reason approved was accepted without a spread of diffs was because of Marathon maps, it was never intended to be aimed at short maps which is why it was an abuse. Short maps could have been fine as hybrid sets to begin with.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
What's a "good map"? How do you measure how good a map is? I find this to be an idea that would be pretty much end up as "be friends with/please a few BATs and you can skip some rules to get your map ranked".

I'm also still wondering: what's a gimmick map?
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

Wishy wrote:

I'm also still wondering: what's a gimmick map?
Something like ziin's blythe or soaprman's fear factory, maps whose gameplay has things outside of the common gameplay for their mode by the use of storyboard or skin elements, to emulate something from where the song comes from as a gimmick.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
So we are talking about a mapping style that's almost non existent and then we have some subjective criteria that's basically a formula for disaster... this doesn't look like a good idea at all.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
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Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
Is BIG BLACK considered a gimmick? Would you make a full spread for that song? I doubt it would even be possible to make a full spread. The simpler difficulties would be unplayable. I don't think it qualifies as a gimmick though. Difficulty is not a gimmick by normal definitions.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
It could be possible yet the map would suck. Not gimmick tho, just a hard map.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

TheVileOne wrote:

Is BIG BLACK considered a gimmick? Would you make a full spread for that song? I doubt it would even be possible to make a full spread. The simpler difficulties would be unplayable. I don't think it qualifies as a gimmick though. Difficulty is not a gimmick by normal definitions.
I think it's fair to say that the likes of 'BIG BLACK' are gimmick maps. They're hard for the sake of it. Basically, BD's maps which are made specifically for that.

Maps which are considered "fun," but contain unrankable features, would presumably go for approval as well. Things like Burais and sliders which start and end in the same place. By definition, a gimmick is something that's extraneous and is done for the sake of it, so forced difficulty would come under that.
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
eldnl

TheVileOne wrote:

Is BIG BLACK considered a gimmick? Would you make a full spread for that song? I doubt it would even be possible to make a full spread. The simpler difficulties would be unplayable. I don't think it qualifies as a gimmick though. Difficulty is not a gimmick by normal definitions.
Big Black is practically mapped at 180bpm, it is totally possible to create an easier difficulty.

Wishy wrote:

It could be possible yet the map would suck. Not gimmick tho, just a hard map.
Probably the map would suck, like every other easy difficulty ....
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Big Black is no gimmick it's just a hard map that started out as a joke.
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare

D33d wrote:

TheVileOne wrote:

Is BIG BLACK considered a gimmick? Would you make a full spread for that song? I doubt it would even be possible to make a full spread. The simpler difficulties would be unplayable. I don't think it qualifies as a gimmick though. Difficulty is not a gimmick by normal definitions.
I think it's fair to say that the likes of 'BIG BLACK' are gimmick maps. They're hard for the sake of it. Basically, BD's maps which are made specifically for that.
Whoa whoa wait
wat?
Big Back is mapped for the sake of being hard? wtf. Big Black has 720 BPM, BD mapped it at 180, it's mapped extremely easy compared to what would be possible with it. It's undermapped as is.
Please refrain from saying stuff like that. maps like that are hard, but they fit the song perfectly or are even undermapped (similar with Aqo's Cloudsmasher etc.)
Also, BD has made some hard maps, but really most of his maps are calm, easy ones, so don't refer to him as a difficulty mapper, he dislikes that himself.

eldnl wrote:

TheVileOne wrote:

Is BIG BLACK considered a gimmick? Would you make a full spread for that song? I doubt it would even be possible to make a full spread. The simpler difficulties would be unplayable. I don't think it qualifies as a gimmick though. Difficulty is not a gimmick by normal definitions.
Big Black is practically mapped at 180bpm, it is totally possible to create an easier difficulty.
Exactly, it IS already undermapped. Undermapping it even more will just feel stupid to play (one slider -> 8465643 MAIN beats passing by)
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue

Zarerion wrote:

eldnl wrote:

Big Black is practically mapped at 180bpm, it is totally possible to create an easier difficulty.
Exactly, it IS already undermapped. Undermapping it even more will just feel stupid to play (one slider -> 8465643 MAIN beats passing by)
it isn't undermapped. every foreground beat you hear in the song is mapped, so in fact, it is neither over- nor undermapped.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,407 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
Wait Zarerion, you know why the BPM needed to be dropped at 360, right?

That the BPM is halfed makes absolutely no Difference - except the Main Reason why it hasn't the Original BPM.
The Map is "perfectly" mapped to the Song. And: It's pretty easy to map lower Diff for this kind of Songs.
Mismagius
9,268 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius

eldnl wrote:

TheVileOne wrote:

Is BIG BLACK considered a gimmick? Would you make a full spread for that song? I doubt it would even be possible to make a full spread. The simpler difficulties would be unplayable. I don't think it qualifies as a gimmick though. Difficulty is not a gimmick by normal definitions.
Big Black is practically mapped at 180bpm, it is totally possible to create an easier difficulty.
No, it's mapped at 720. Get your facts right. I'm the mapper, and I've never said that. It was mapped at 720 and intended to be 720. If it sounds 180 to you then too bad.

And yes, maps like Big Black/Airman are gimmicks because they are more about difficulty than any other mapping element.
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare

Blue Dragon wrote:

No, it's mapped at 720. Get your facts right. I'm the mapper, and I've never said that. It was mapped at 720 and intended to be 720. If it sounds 180 to you then too bad.
While being mapped at 720, you will play it like a 180 BPM map with some sliderjumps, sorry for wording that badly.

Tanzklaue wrote:

it isn't undermapped. every foreground beat you hear in the song is mapped, so in fact, it is neither over- nor undermapped.
it actually is.
there are many unmapped sounds.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,407 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan

Zarerion wrote:

Tanzklaue wrote:

it isn't undermapped. every foreground beat you hear in the song is mapped, so in fact, it is neither over- nor undermapped.
it actually is.
there are many unmapped sounds.
..where? Are you talking about things like 00:20:204, 00:38:939 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) or 01:03:918 (3) ?..

Maybe BD just avoided to overmap it and for that he put 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 1/2 Breaks there. You can't tell me that TBB is undermapped. It isn't because of the halfed BPM or for not being a pure Streamer Map.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
It would still make a terrible full spread. There will be 1/16th sounds that will need to be mapped with 1/1 sliders. How bad will that sound? The tick rate will not even line up during some parts, and if you set the tick rate high, each slider would just be a spam of sound. Bad sounding sliders are the main reason why I don't think all songs need full spread. There are plenty of songs that just sound terrible when you simplify the beat and if you try to fix this problem, it greatly increases the difficulty of the map. It's very difficult to create a balance and sometimes the mapper just need to settle for a subpar sounding difficulty.
Saturnalize
1,490 posts
Joined March 2011
Saturnalize
Are we talking about approval criteria or BD's map?
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
The BATs are discussing amendments to this rule in the BAT/MAT sub forum. It doesn't matter what is discussed in this thread anymore. The general consensus among the BATs is that the current rule is insufficient and needs to be changed. The BATs will come to a decision on how it will be changed.

I've kept up with the BAT discussion and it's leaning towards raising the marathon minimum length to 8 minutes, and having anything below 8 minutes go through an approval system by 3 BATs based on various criteria about the song and the feasible mappability of that song. There is still discussion whether criteria is going to be specific and open to any type of song given that the mapset contains a Hard difficulty. Certain songs/ mapping approaches can be considered as focused towards the upper skill range and thus do not need to include the lower difficulty sets.

This rule is moving into new and interesting directions.

You can keep up with the latest discussions here.
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,945 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
Approval will remain the domain of marathon maps as it always has, as the ranking criteria gives plenty of provisions to allow for most maps. Gimmicky or non-mode mapsets can be assessed on an individual basis and do not require explicit mention within the criteria itself.
Kyouren
5,657 posts
Joined October 2012
Kyouren
Excuse me, I want to ask
Why this map https://osu.ppy.sh/s/93850 and https://osu.ppy.sh/s/95746 is approved whereas the time 5:59?
Shohei Ohtani
Shohei Ohtani

gokugohan12468 wrote:

Excuse me, I want to ask
Why this map https://osu.ppy.sh/s/93850 and https://osu.ppy.sh/s/95746 is approved whereas the time 5:59?
Because BATs aren't assholes lol like are you seriously gonna deny a nigga an approved map because of like 1 second. I'd understand maybe 30 seconds, but 1 second honestly isn't even noticable in a song, and it'd be kind of dickish of the staff to not make an exception for something so slight.
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Wafu

gokugohan12468 wrote:

Excuse me, I want to ask
Why this map https://osu.ppy.sh/s/93850 and https://osu.ppy.sh/s/95746 is approved whereas the time 5:59?
Well, because website is bugged and shows 5:59 instead of 6:03 (before it didn't count end of map where spinner ends, but where it started, so it had shorter time then it really has. Reported it ~3 months ago, but they fixed it only ingame, not on website.
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