YOU GUYS ARE ALL COPYING WHAT I SAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYZarerion wrote:
Instead of maximum score, go with note density.
Gonna get denied anyway, but well, the more often we try, the higher the chance we can change this system, hm?
YOU GUYS ARE ALL COPYING WHAT I SAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYZarerion wrote:
Instead of maximum score, go with note density.
Gonna get denied anyway, but well, the more often we try, the higher the chance we can change this system, hm?
Marathons are supposed to be tests of endurance. It isn't much of a test of endurance if all I am doing is falling asleep for six minutes as much as a map that is shorter (but not too short) but high in note density.Sakura wrote:
The initial reason for approval mapsets to exist was so that very long marathons that had millions of score which could break the rankings would be able to have a scoreboard, it wasn't intended for super fast songs that cause a lot of hitobjects to go over said maximum score, which people abused and should have been hybrid mapsets (ranked + approved diff).
The reason Approval didn't need a full spread it's because it's tiring to make a full spread for super long songs, hence why all the other songs should have gone hybrid rather than full on approval with 1 hard diff.
Right now Approval is for gimmick maps and Marathons (6 minute or more) which should suffice, why can't people just map full spreads?
Mappers did not abuse that. They saw an opprtunity. Thanks to the Approval rule they were able to spend more time mapping a single diff using the same effort needed for a usual generic ENHI spread. If a rule turns out to have side-effects, those side-effects will not be necessarily bad. Approval maps were good. Mappers and players liked them, regardless of what they originally were supposed to be. Why taking that opprtunity from mappersl, and thus taking cool maps from the players?Sakura wrote:
The initial reason for approval mapsets to exist was so that very long marathons that had millions of score which could break the rankings would be able to have a scoreboard, it wasn't intended for super fast songs that cause a lot of hitobjects to go over said maximum score, which people abused and should have been hybrid mapsets (ranked + approved diff).
The reason Approval didn't need a full spread it's because it's tiring to make a full spread for super long songs, hence why all the other songs should have gone hybrid rather than full on approval with 1 hard diff.
Right now Approval is for gimmick maps and Marathons (6 minute or more) which should suffice, why can't people just map full spreads?
Classify it as "Marathon" rather than "Approval" then.Sakura wrote:
Because it's for Marathons, not long songs.
I feel like you're saying exactly what I've said in the previous thread again haha.Zarerion wrote:
We do NOT gain anything by forcing full spreads. We only LOSE the cool 1-diff mapsets.
By allowing 1-diff mapsets (Approved or ranked doesn't even matter) we will GAIN more maps ADDITIONALLY to the full spread TV Size Nightcore uguu kawaii desu chan mapsets. Those are not gonna vanish.
Sakura wrote:
@Frosty: My current guess is that it's approval for both Marathons and Gimmick maps (which already got a full spread, they are just... weird in some sort of way but still fun to play)
Nyquill, in that case then you should be attacking the no single diff rule, not the Approval criteria, to begin with Approval has no point other than separating Marathons/Gimmicks from regular osu! maps currently.
Please explain to me how this does not fall under approval discussion.Nyquill wrote:
Marathons are supposed to be tests of endurance. It isn't much of a test of endurance if all I am doing is falling asleep for six minutes as much as a map that is shorter (but not too short) but high in note density.
I totally understand what you mean about "Gimmick maps".Sakura wrote:
@Frosty: My current guess is that it's approval for both Marathons and Gimmick maps (which already got a full spread, they are just... weird in some sort of way but still fun to play)
I have an idea. Will we BAT try to classify only some "BATs" who are capable enough in playing these hard maps can vote and decide if the map in question is intense enough to go for approval set. That won't hurt when they can actually give an opinion and everyone trusts them. I can mention who are capable enough in BAT if you ask me.Nyquill wrote:
@Everyone: Now, am I missing anything other than note density, object count, and we can take length into consideration but not as a complete parameter for approval?
I personally think all BATs should be able to participate in approval discussion, as it doesn't really bode well for us to make a P5 sort of thing within our own team.Frostmourne wrote:
EDIT:I have an idea. Will we BAT try to classify only some "BATs" who are capable enough in playing these hard maps can vote and decide if the map in question is intense enough to go for approval set. That won't hurt when they can actually give an opinion and everyone trusts them. I can mention who are capable enough in BAT if you ask me.Nyquill wrote:
@Everyone: Now, am I missing anything other than note density, object count, and we can take length into consideration but not as a complete parameter for approval?
Because some poeple does not have fun mapping easy difficulties. You can't really go and make some really original and fun easy/normals because that's what thety are, easies, the moment you include something weird it's already over the difficulty limit. Then again hards are still way too simple, the only tier w/o a limit is Insane, and that's where you can get off with anything w/o having people cry because of difficulty.Sakura wrote:
The initial reason for approval mapsets to exist was so that very long marathons that had millions of score which could break the rankings would be able to have a scoreboard, it wasn't intended for super fast songs that cause a lot of hitobjects to go over said maximum score, which people abused and should have been hybrid mapsets (ranked + approved diff).
The reason Approval didn't need a full spread it's because it's tiring to make a full spread for super long songs, hence why all the other songs should have gone hybrid rather than full on approval with 1 hard diff.
Right now Approval is for gimmick maps and Marathons (6 minute or more) which should suffice, why can't people just map full spreads?
I guess that the tone of my other post caused it to be deleted. There is nothing about easier difficulties which excuses either boringness or gimmickry. It is entirely plausible to make the entire set varied and fun. There is no excuse not to simplify a song to its basic groove. As long as the song isn't bland and awful, there will be a lot of different, simpler rhythms to map.Wishy wrote:
Because some poeple does not have fun mapping easy difficulties. You can't really go and make some really original and fun easy/normals because that's what thety are, easies, the moment you include something weird it's already over the difficulty limit. Then again hards are still way too simple, the only tier w/o a limit is Insane, and that's where you can get off with anything w/o having people cry because of difficulty.
By forcing people to map stuff they don't like you will only get bad results (or none at all).
No, not this. If mapper don't map easier difficulty only because he "don't like to", his map shouldn't be considered to be approved because this is lazy-mapping. The new approval criteria I suggested is for those "very difficult maps that will need a lot of works to map a full spread" AND in a situation that the limit really prevent something good from ranking.Wishy wrote:
Because some poeple does not have fun mapping easy difficulties. You can't really go and make some really original and fun easy/normals because that's what thety are, easies, the moment you include something weird it's already over the difficulty limit. Then again hards are still way too simple, the only tier w/o a limit is Insane, and that's where you can get off with anything w/o having people cry because of difficulty.Sakura wrote:
The initial reason for approval mapsets to exist was so that very long marathons that had millions of score which could break the rankings would be able to have a scoreboard, it wasn't intended for super fast songs that cause a lot of hitobjects to go over said maximum score, which people abused and should have been hybrid mapsets (ranked + approved diff).
The reason Approval didn't need a full spread it's because it's tiring to make a full spread for super long songs, hence why all the other songs should have gone hybrid rather than full on approval with 1 hard diff.
Right now Approval is for gimmick maps and Marathons (6 minute or more) which should suffice, why can't people just map full spreads?
By forcing people to map stuff they don't like you will only get bad results (or none at all).
I've considered this too. This will discourage speed ranking(because for 1st ranked version, a full spread is needed). But it is something irrelevant to approval criteria actually. And the purposes are different.Zarerion wrote:
fuck i'm gonna regret this
How about this compromise.
"Mapsets need to be ranked with a full spread containing at least a [Normal] unless there is already a ranked mapsets with lowdiffs for this specific song. If that's the case, it can go for Approval with only an Insane diff."
Beginners don't care about different versions of a map, they just want to play the song. if they have one already, they don't >need< another one.
This would mean that every song mapped for this game gets it's lowdiffs (that aren't even needed) but mappers regain some of their freedom, at least for already ranked songs
This would be great. mapsets like http://osu.ppy.sh/s/79696 could end up ranked by just adding some generic [Normal] and maybe a [Hard] in there. Not being sarcastic, you are absolutely right, beginners don't need 5000 different [Easy] and [Normal]s. Your idea was already applied tho: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/7932 See how there is a single [Easier] diff and then you got lots of hard insanes. Inb4 people comes and cries "but a lot of people can't play that mapset because easy is boring and the other diffs are too hard!!!!!".Zarerion wrote:
fuck i'm gonna regret this
How about this compromise.
"Mapsets need to be ranked with a full spread containing at least a [Normal] unless there is already a ranked mapsets with lowdiffs for this specific song. If that's the case, it can go for Approval with only an Insane diff."
Beginners don't care about different versions of a map, they just want to play the song. if they have one already, they don't >need< another one.
This would mean that every song mapped for this game gets it's lowdiffs (that aren't even needed) but mappers regain some of their freedom, at least for already ranked songs
could you show me these statistics? what are they based on?lolcubes wrote:
Also, while we all want more good Insanes, as long as Hard diffs are statistically most played, you can't really say that Insanes are what people are looking for the most.
(I am aware that a lot of pp farmers spam those hards though, but numbers don't lie sadly)
Marathon maps are maps on a marathon song but not a special test --- some sort of relavent assessment when you try to master the map but not really 'supposed to'. Resist to fall asleep during gameplay is also part of enduranceNyquill wrote:
Marathons are supposed to be tests of endurance. It isn't much of a test of endurance if all I am doing is falling asleep for six minutes as much as a map that is shorter (but not too short) but high in note density.
In the past maps are approved while reached a relatively low difficulty limit or score limit. Now the rules changed. Some of them might not fall on the recent approval criteria but their status of being approved but being held. Rename the category results in inaccuracy in descibing those songs.Frostmourne wrote:
Classify it as "Marathon" rather than "Approval" then.Sakura wrote:
Because it's for Marathons, not long songs.
If it's for "Marathons" then why it used to be an approval once in a past. Some amazing maps like https://osu.ppy.sh/s/38697 https://osu.ppy.sh/s/22173 and so on. They don't need to be a ranked map but people can enjoy it as well.
Approval =/= Marathon , pls understand
Unfortunately, something does have to be changed, or at least added, to address cases like https://osu.ppy.sh/s/93850, where the drain was 5:55.wmfchris wrote:
I'll say just leave it as it is.
I'm proposing the new rule:Current rule wrote:
Approved Category is only for Marathon maps. Long maps with over 6 minutes of draining time fit the Approval category. Only then they are allowed to be single difficulty mapsets. If they are below 6 minutes of draining time, a full difficulty spread is needed and the map will have to be ranked instead.
Or we can do what popner said.New rule wrote:
Approved Category is only for Marathon maps. Long maps with over 6 minutes of draining time fit the Approval category. Only then they are allowed to be single difficulty mapsets. If they are below 6 minutes of draining time, a full difficulty spread is needed and the map will have to be ranked instead.
Exceptions of extreme cases will be handled on a case by case basis by the BAT.
Either way, time based constraints are really bad in the sense that things like "oh but I'm 15 seconds off wtfffff" can happen.popner wrote:
Some envisagements are:
1. Move the rule to guideline. If a mapper requests an approving(for songs shorter than 6 mins), a discussion will be raised in BAT to decide whether it is approvable.
Really does kill the meaning of the word "approval" doesn't itTheVileOne wrote:
I think the approval definition needs to change with the times. At some point it was necessary to keep approval maps only for long songs, but now there is an even more need to satisfy certain song types. It's called approval maps. BATs should have the ability to approve them. If you have a specific rule about whats allowed, they can't approve/disapprove, just follow the criteria just like any other rule. It makes no difference. Bring back the real reason the category was named approval. It will work much better with the new ranking system.