Guest
home
beatmaps
rankings
community
store
help
forum
  1. Forums
  2. osu!
  3. Gameplay & Rankings

Fix the pp ranking system

posted
Total Posts
62
show more
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

silmarilen wrote:

what if pp was working as intended but nobody knew the intention?
before pp, there were score ranks.
people complained that score ranks were "all about farming" instead of "actually being a good player" which would translate to "doing good plays"
so then score ranks were replaced with pp, with the obvious intention to correct this issue, i.e. to sort players based on their play ability and not based on how long have they been farming easy maps

it only makes sense, that, pp's goal would be to be a system that rewards play quality and not farming

however right now pp is a farming-based system. it encourages to retry easy maps instead of doing actually good plays
so, what did it accomplish? nothing

normally any sensible person would just ignore pp's existence since the information it provides is completely random and meaningless but lewa makes a very good point that a lot of newcomers who have no idea how this game works end up getting the wrong impression from it and being misled.

PP's flaws were known from the very first day it was implemented. "competition on a map" is a very poor scale for ranking considering that the harder a map is, the less people "compete" is on it, since less players are able to play it or even try to.

At the very least, PP should be renamed. What's up with all of the people who say "performance" and "skill" are not the same thing? They're synonyms. This system clearly does not measure skill, so it should be named something else.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
That is one of the most reasonable things I've ever heard you say in one of these debates Aqo. I agree with everything you said. Performance points are indirectly a measurement of skill and competition is a poor measure of performance. pp is essentially meaningless if you don't use it as a comparison of skill. You can't really say that because you have more pp, then you perform better, because it's all relative. Maps are not treated fairly enough to consider who is performing better than other players. It's a very flawed system.
MillhioreF
Pro Tester
5,004 posts
Joined July 2011
MillhioreF
I think a lot of peoples' issues with the system would be resolved if map weighting wasn't so terrible - nobody would complain if Cookiezi's score on Freedom Dive gave way more pp than HD+DT SS on a random Nightcore [Hard] does now. Decreasing the popularity bonus to maybe a third of what it is now and weighting maps based on the average performance of all plays with a given mod combo would be a huge step forward in my eyes. Of course, there'd be plenty of kinks to work out in that system too (what happens if there are only 5 DT plays with D ranks and then someone gets an S?) so there's no way it could be fixed overnight.

Edit: This is kind of a bad feature request, since it's so subjective. Let's move this to gameplay and rankings - I'll do my very very best to make sure it stays open. Any flaming/shitposts will be wastelanded with extreme prejudice.
kuigliii
13 posts
Joined October 2012
kuigliii
Correct me if I'm wrong about what I'm saying, but am I the only one who thinks that the osutp thing is just as flawed as the pp system? I can see why it would be favorable for good players (lets say top #1000), but I just don't see it being a good idea for newcomers and not as highly ranked players. PP is something everyone can work towards, which makes the game for a mediocre player so much more enjoyable. Getting top 500 on a hard map is something even I can achieve and it just feels good doing so...

When I checked my osutp page only 3 of my records were listed, and I don't even consider them my best and I was actually kind of disappointed.
yoyomster
58 posts
Joined July 2011
yoyomster
"This system applies the ratings of all top50 scores on each player, sorting them decreasingly and summing them up with decreasing weight. Information about recent changes to the system can be found here."

Based on this information (which is all i could get from the site regarding player rating), it seems equally as bad, but maybe i'm wrong.
Does osu!tp take map difficulty into account? Because for me it's hard to say based based on that one sentence.
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf
tom has only access to top50, and yes tp is based on map's difficulty
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue

Aqo wrote:

At the very least, PP should be renamed. What's up with all of the people who say "performance" and "skill" are not the same thing? They're synonyms. This system clearly does not measure skill, so it should be named something else.
they are not synonyms.

if somebody on stage performs, then you won't say "that was such a nice skill he showed us today!"

a performance is something you did, while skill is what you are capable of.
Purple
467 posts
Joined May 2011
Purple
How can anyone say the current pp system is perfectly fine? It's so obvious its not. Ephemeral made a thread asking players for what they think are the top 5 hardest maps in osu!. You think he did that just for fun?

The staff is aware of the problems with pp, and are working to design and implement something similar to tp. Once they have their own difficulty calculator, it wont be long until they implement it into the current pp system.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Tom94

kuigliii wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong about what I'm saying, but am I the only one who thinks that the osutp thing is just as flawed as the pp system? I can see why it would be favorable for good players (lets say top #1000), but I just don't see it being a good idea for newcomers and not as highly ranked players. PP is something everyone can work towards, which makes the game for a mediocre player so much more enjoyable. Getting top 500 on a hard map is something even I can achieve and it just feels good doing so...

When I checked my osutp page only 3 of my records were listed, and I don't even consider them my best and I was actually kind of disappointed.
As other people have already mentioned: Beatmap ranks are only publicly visible until #50. That's the only information osu!tp can work with, which again makes it only useful for players who can consistently rank top50.


yoyomster wrote:

"This system applies the ratings of all top50 scores on each player, sorting them decreasingly and summing them up with decreasing weight. Information about recent changes to the system can be found here."

Based on this information (which is all i could get from the site regarding player rating), it seems equally as bad, but maybe i'm wrong.
Does osu!tp take map difficulty into account? Because for me it's hard to say based based on that one sentence.
It is purely based on map / score heuristics. Your position relative to other players isn't even looked at.
I should probably make descriptions on the page more clear and add an info page...
Apart from that, quality of rankings will always be subjective, so it's up to each individual to decide how "good" they are. :)
According to some people, score rating was the fairest - others claim pp to be the holy grail. With which rigorous argument can one prove them wrong? I sure don't know.


Purple wrote:

How can anyone say the current pp system is perfectly fine? It's so obvious its not. Ephemeral made a thread asking players for what they think are the top 5 hardest maps in osu!. You think he did that just for fun?

The staff is aware of the problems with pp, and are working to design and implement something similar to tp. Once they have their own difficulty calculator, it wont be long until they implement it into the current pp system.
That's exactly what I thought. Would be nice to see a heuristic-based system officially in place finally.
However I'd recommend not to expect anything until there is an official announcemennt. Speculation gets you nowhere. Might aswell only be for an improved star-rating - who knows.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy

Tanzklaue wrote:

Aqo wrote:

At the very least, PP should be renamed. What's up with all of the people who say "performance" and "skill" are not the same thing? They're synonyms. This system clearly does not measure skill, so it should be named something else.
they are not synonyms.

if somebody on stage performs, then you won't say "that was such a nice skill he showed us today!"

a performance is something you did, while skill is what you are capable of.
Thing is pp does not care about how well you performed but it does care about who performed worse/better than you + popularity of the map. Which is pointless and farm based, not as easy to farm as ranked score but still not that hard. Like yeah you might not be able to get to the top 10 like it's nothing, yet you CAN get to a very high rank w/o being that good.

Tom did another system where all that matters is skill. If you get an impossible score on a map no one played then you'll get 478214809712 points, while here you'll probably get nothing.

Still Eph showed they are working on a new diff calc system, it's gonna be bad at first no doubt about that but I'm sure it's gonna end up being good.
Icyteru
535 posts
Joined August 2011
Icyteru
Sounds like gloating in disguise.
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
eldnl
what about taiko, mania and ctb? because the difficulty is not the same in each game mode
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
Topic Starter
thelewa
this is to anyone saying that tp is the best system:
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue

thelewa wrote:

this is to anyone saying that tp is the best system:
but DT >>>>>>>>>>>>> HD HR, so everything is correct.

you only mad cuz you HD HR player.

on a more serious note, I think tom himself knows the best that the system is far from perfect, since it only includes top 50 ranks and all maps that are not super hard are not really that good ranked. also the weighting of mods and accuracy needs a lot finetuning, as this system overrates DT in ridiculous fashion compared to FL and especially HD HR.

the system still is probably more precise than pp, or at least has the potential to be that. and that he developed a whole ranking system on his own is a feat in itself, and should be rewarded with the most respect.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy

thelewa wrote:

this is to anyone saying that tp is the best system:
I don't know that map but if it is THAT hard to DT then that's correct, even if the acc is low.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
Topic Starter
thelewa
It is not.
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire

thelewa wrote:

It is not.
Double tp point difference.
(brb learning tap/x because tp)
LTTP
45 posts
Joined May 2013
LTTP

[AirCoN] wrote:

Sounds like gloating in disguise.
just deal with it, I never though I'd see someone complain about being in such a high ranked spot, tho I see where u are coming from, you are saying that other people deserve that spot more then you but still...

Well then lets hope this gets looked at and maybe this system can be tuned up a bit to fix this.
DeathPrince
2 posts
Joined August 2012
DeathPrince
People who consistently farm easy/normal songs are ranked so high now. Saw someone who was a rank 2k before the tp or whatever was made and now they are rank like 400. Literally farming normals all day is the key now smh.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

DeathPrince wrote:

People who consistently farm easy/normal songs are ranked so high now. Saw someone who was a rank 2k before the tp or whatever was made and now they are rank like 400. Literally farming normals all day is the key now smh.
TP is a separate ranking to PP and they're developed by different people with different ideas.

TP: http://osutp.net/players
PP: https://osu.ppy.sh/p/pp
Liiraye
1,354 posts
Joined December 2011
Liiraye
The way pp is now is pretty bad. My friend has, in 2 days of playing some normal/easy maps and ranking on the first try, gone from rank 4k+ to 2k. All his top performence maps are easy diffs now. Are you guys who say there's nothing wrong with the system think this is well deserved? While I and others around rank 3k and less struggle to gain nothing on immensely harder maps gain nothing from all the hard work and countless retries we put in. I'm aware of that pp is not all just skill, but when people are ranked higher they are by default considered better in others eyes.

Quoting that friend of mine:
'I'm gonna abuse the shit out of this system before they relive this farming feature'

sry for errors i wrote it from the phone.
Sakisan
150 posts
Joined August 2011
Sakisan

Pancake wrote:

which again makes it only useful for players who can consistently rank top50.
It would be more accurate to say it can only really work for the players whose 10 actual best plays are all top 50.
That said, I think it does a pretty good job at sorting out the others as well.
Painkiller-
10 posts
Joined March 2011
Painkiller-
tp sucks, it rates easy and normals with hd+dt+hr more than insanes with hd, pp is kinda the same way but w/e let the developers do what they want and dont even look at your ranking, just play and practise and most important of all, have fun with what you play
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna

painkiller666 wrote:

tp sucks, it rates easy and normals with hd+dt+hr more than insanes with hd
lolno
like, 100% no

If you get more tp from 3mod easy/normal scores than from your Insane plays, it's because your Insane scores are not top 50 (scores below top 50 can't be considered for tp, since Tom has no access to the score database)
Painkiller-
10 posts
Joined March 2011
Painkiller-
then you say if you are not a real pro player, you need to play normals and easy, so fun dude
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
Well, that's not a flaw of the system, but of the data he has to work with.
Mismagius
9,237 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius

thelewa wrote:

It is not.
A map that's basically a 150BPM deathstream is much harder in DT than HD HR, what are you talking about
boat
2,369 posts
Joined February 2010
boat
A map that's one long deathstream is a very unrealistic example, a realistic 150bpm map could depending on the other variables be by miles easier to DT.

Neither are necessarily easier or harder.

edit: didn't know it was for a map in particular, disregard my gibberish
Last edited by boat , edited 1 time in total.
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
the fact is that that dimrain map is pretty much a deathstream, sure it has some 1/2 notes but most of it is 1/4
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy

painkiller666 wrote:

then you say if you are not a real pro player, you need to play normals and easy, so fun dude
If you can't get Top 50 scores on Insanes (or at least hards) then you should not worry about rank.
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny

thelewa wrote:

this is to anyone saying that tp is the best system:
the difference between HD + HR and DT in that map is a big gap because of the streams and OD
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
I think that map is way harder to DT than to HRHD.
Satanum666
Satanum666
i think 150 ar10 is harder than 225 ;D
Kanye West
2,222 posts
Joined July 2011
Kanye West
pp and tp both suck

score was the best system
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Tom94

painkiller666 wrote:

then you say if you are not a real pro player, you need to play normals and easy, so fun dude
tp would consider more than top50 scores if it could.


buny wrote:

thelewa wrote:

this is to anyone saying that tp is the best system:
the difference between HD + HR and DT in that map is a big gap because of the streams and OD
I completely agree that DT shouldn't be worth more than twice of HR on this map. While with HR the map sure isn't very physicly demanding, it still requires good accuracy and reading.
Actually that has been fixed with the introduction of the accuracy value. (Which is the most right value.)
hinamizawan
868 posts
Joined May 2010
hinamizawan

Kanye West wrote:

pp and tp both suck

score was the best system
not sure about tp but pp is very unstable, lately with those updates i've fallen a lot in pp. from 651 to 690 and now 731... at least good old score rank doesnt fail me

inb4 go2hell scorefarmer
Kanye West
2,222 posts
Joined July 2011
Kanye West
I know right. Score is consistent. I know I will have 10 bil score when I wake up tomorrow. I might lose or gain 100 pp when I wake up tomorrow.
Frostmourne
osu! Alumni
3,733 posts
Joined November 2009
Frostmourne
every system is good \o/
Please sign in to reply.

New reply

0
25 / 62