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[osu!mania] About the must have hitsound rule...

posted
Total Posts
47
DJKero
231 posts
Here since the beginning
Topic Starter
DJKero
Well, this is a really important thing to disscuss, I think here all the oldies will agree that this needs to be unapplied to osu!mania maps because it disencourages mappers to make beatmaps, and it isn't a really good rule for something that never was a problem on O2Jam and other beat/music games...

I'm AGAINST this rule. Why? because it just force me to hitsound something, and forcing isn't good, so many mappers will don't know how to do this correctly and will ruin their beatmaps, or just don't do beatmaps because of this rule...

I really think this only disencourages the production of Hard and Insane Mania maps, and it really stinks.

Disscuss.

My basic reason of hating this rule?


=========================================================================================

1st point of all:

The need of making a song from scratch like a Musical Producer to have the Instruments separated and the access of all hitsounds needed to hitsound that map.

Some will say: "You can do it with Generic hitsounds or something like that..." Well, If I want to do that, first of all I need to invest a lot of time downloading INFINITE SOUNDFONTS in .wav from each existing instrument in the world, and consider the tones that can be adjusted just only 1 instrument that is basically UNIQUE and not similar to other one...

Also, this job is basically, so much more effort that a Musical Producer puts on generating a new song... a Musical Producer is paid though a beatmapper just do it for free...

If you want you can ask the guys that already beatmapped with Full-Hitsounded Songs: DJPop and Hanyuu. Also Hanyuu already said it shortly, that this isn't a thing that everyone can do, EVEN IF THEY WANT, AND PUT SO MUCH EFFORT ON IT.

2nd point:

For me, and I think the majority of beatmappers, making a beatmap with a few basic hitsounds is like putting dirt into a piece of art that one did by hand...

If someone will hitsound, mostly will do that JOB that i explained before...

Making a new song, or searching in a Sound DB of GB's or TB's for the EXACTLY MATCHING HITSOUNDS, and that is someone will do for one of their favourite songs that want to make a FULL QUALITY BEATMAP... Not for every map he'll do.

3rd point:

Understand that yeah, for not insane/hard difficulties we can hitsound with custom basic hitsounds or default ones from osu!, just some "significant sounds" and that stuff, for most of the people this will be like ruining the piece of art that he/she created.

Yeah, we can do it, it's not like a really hard job...

But it's something almost impossible, or definitely ruining a difficulty when it comes to HARD/INSANE, Another, HD MX or SC, etc...

And what we like of mapping is mapping the hard ones, the easy difficulties are the ones we are kinda forced by the community to make, you know, for rank criteria, and for the newbies having songs to play...

=========================================================================================

That's it. :D
Last edited by DJKero , edited 1 time in total.
camisama
1 post
Joined January 2011
camisama
having to hitsound every note and arrange volume in hard and insane map made me give up so much on a lot of work. so i hope the rule can get overpass for mania mapper cause i realy enjoy new sound of high difficulty
ApocaLyse
ApocaLyse
Everyone's views differ... Where there is a choice not agree.. naturally choose agreed with the Ranking rules for mapping.. I don't know much, so can not give any good suggestions. I'm sorry
TamaraMarie
115 posts
Joined October 2010
TamaraMarie
I'm half-half on this. Mostly because I don't really map, but while mapping my only mania! map, I was pretty discouraged by the hitsounds. Luckily, I only had thirty seconds to map so I wasn't too bothered.

So it really depends on everyone else's opinions because as an amateur mapper, mine aren't that useful, haha.
xxbidiao
450 posts
Joined November 2008
xxbidiao
Agree.

We had a heated discussion in t/127565 , but it was locked very fast.
And I also have a poll in t/128069

To sum up with all the discussion and the poll:

Most of us in our discussion, especially players from other music games, believe that mappers should be given rights to omit default hitsound. (Though we still have some different point of view on whether hitsound should be able to open using some hack like forcing using skin hitsound to overload them.)

A quick reason sum-up:
1.Not every map is suitable to default hitsound.
2.Not every song is possible to find a mania-needed hitsound.
3.Mania play style (Especially [No Key-Sounded charts]) doesn't allow usage of "default" hitsound, instead they "use silent .wav files".

Edit: Re-state my opinion, My suggestion is to allow beatmap with silent hitsound be able to rank. (Nothing to do with already hitsounded maps!)
Last edited by xxbidiao , edited 1 time in total.
Luyuja
127 posts
Joined December 2010
Luyuja

xxbidiao wrote:

Agree.

We had a heated discussion in t/127565 , but it was locked very fast.
And I also have a poll in t/128069

To sum up with all the discussion and the poll:

Most of us in our discussion, especially players from other music games, believe that mappers should be given rights to omit default hitsound. (Though we still have some different point of view on whether hitsound should be able to open using some hack like forcing using skin hitsound to overload them.)

A quick reason sum-up:
1.Not every map is suitable to default hitsound.
2.Not every song is possible to find a mania-needed hitsound.
3.Mania play style (Especially [No Key-Sounded charts]) doesn't allow usage of "default" hitsound, instead they "use silent .wav files".
I agree 2.
Hitsounds is a big trouble when i mapping note sea(BMS Style).
I think hitsounds waste too much useless energy in maping insane map,unless I have all keysounds of this song
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Mapping with hitsound is something we have been doing for years, there's no much difference in regards to mania and standard hitsounding (other than the fact that mania has multiple key presses at the same time?) so I don't see a reason still for something like this to be an exception to osu!mania. Please bring a reason other than "It takes too much effort" or "I am too lazy to do it" when asking for an exception to a rule.
Ciunek
52 posts
Joined February 2010
Ciunek
But they've already gave a reason. Did you ignore xxbidiao's post?
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

xxbidiao wrote:

1.Not every map is suitable to default hitsound.
2.Not every song is possible to find a mania-needed hitsound.
3.Mania play style (Especially [No Key-Sounded charts]) doesn't allow usage of "default" hitsound, instead they "use silent .wav files".
1. Use custom hitsounds then.

2. What do you mean mania-needed? if you meant mania-related then it doesn't need to be "mania-related" or "mania-needed" it needs to fit the song instead.

3. What do you mean by this?
---------------------------------------
To sum up, the first 2, pretty much point towards lack of effort, the 3rd isn't even related... the playstyle somewhere else doesn't mean it's the same as osu!, people are still free to use their hitsounds while playing, but others prefer to hear the hitsounds the mappers put into their maps, if they prefer not hearing hitsounds then they can reduce their effect volume to 0, by allowing silent hitsounds you're effectively denying the players a choice.

Rules arent here for mappers to input more or less effort, rules are here to set a standard that can cater all possible players.

And before anyone says "They can pass the map once and use Ignore Skin" this won't work, because it will use whatever hitsounds you used on the map, which will be either A) A Badly hitsounded map because the mapper didn't care or B) A spam of the same hitsound over and over. If the mapper already hitsounded their map well, there's really no reason to use silent.wav as a hitsound.
Ciunek
52 posts
Joined February 2010
Ciunek
#2 is probably "can't find custom hitsounds that are suitable for the song(given #1 are not suitable already)", at least that's how I see it. Quite honestly it's falling under how creative and able the person is, since they'd most probably have to make the hitsounds themselves. If map can be fun without them, why not allow it. Sometimes there's no judging the effort, but rather how possible it is to make it according to the rules. I'm sure wouldn't be able to make hitsounds myself, and there's probably many talented charters that wouldn't be able to either. That basically sums up my reasoning there.
Hanyuu
2,223 posts
Joined February 2009
Hanyuu
The reason is mostly that unlike in standard mode you get overlapping hitsounds because of multiple presses at once. Also in higher difficulty since how the notes are aranged you will only get a constant unrhythmic shhhhhhhhh if using default soft sample. And if you use normal sample you will want to turn out the hitsound yourself :?
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
There's a hitsound library already, and i'm pretty sure standard mappers dont go "can't find fitting hitsounds so let's use silenced ones", that holds no water anywhere, you can always ask in #modhelp for hitsounds for whichever song you're mapping regardless, the only mode that uses different hitsounding is Taiko, and they use mostly default hitsounds to begin with. So really there's not much excuse, consdering osu!standard mappers can find fitting hitsounds for their songs, osu!mania mappers can find them as well.

Edit: lol ninja'd, the above poster kind of has some sort of reasoning, and I'd like to say "If there are multiple keys you can hitsound one and silence the rest" but then if they miss the hitsounded one and hit the silent one it'd be just awkward, i wonder if wok can do something about this (like use only one hitsound for all keys on multikey presses defined by the hitsound in X or something like that)
MillhioreF
Pro Tester
5,004 posts
Joined July 2011
MillhioreF
I'm not enough of a mania player to really comment well on this, but keep in mind hitsounding probably isn't as horrible as you make it out to be here. Mania has a lot more notes, sure, but you don't have to hitsound every single note. On simultaneous keypresses, a hitsound on just one note should usually be fine, unless you want the sound amplified for effect.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Actually i imagine if you're playing a Piano, you'd press 2 keys simultaneously because you want both to be heard at the same time including amplifications and holding a key so it can be heard while something else is playing (slider), not pretty sure how mania would cater to this, it is true that hitsounding can't be avoided, but I wonder about these cases. Also MillhioreF you forgot the situation I mentioned, where the player misses the hitsounded key and hits the silent key.
Hanyuu
2,223 posts
Joined February 2009
Hanyuu
The solution can't be to get told to use a costum hitsound, afterall its about a rule and it should concern the game as it is in my opinion. I also brought up the idea silent samples by default and additive sound samples for major rhythmic parts of the song like the main beat whistles claps finishes drumrolls etc.. the thing about muting a whole beat and leaving one note sounding sounds totally awkward though. First of all it seems like a bigger effort to do that than actually hitsounding a map and second i think its actually worse than no sounds at all. Also i personally would feel kinda retarded doing such a thing to one of my maps just for having to do it..

So as it is now it's either use a super low volume -> get complains to make it higher -> mapper hates their own map because they just don't like it that way -> Mapper is upset and complains about a rule -> get told to use sound libraries and put more effort in it. Well to clarify my point, I am for myself not both against or for this rule because i don't really care that much myself since i like to hitsound my maps and it takes a great amount of effort to do that. The thing is just not everyone can do that, even if they want to. I think its just kind of rejecting to get told such a thing, inb4 argument: you dont have to make a custom hitsound for every piano note that it is played.

On the other hand then there are people like chonicle, who recreated the song like i mentioned in the previous example with every piano note and that by ear. It took a whole to even transcribe the song i heard, then put it together in a map probably atleast as long. And ofcourse DJPOP for his known keysounded songs.

Well, the people that can't compromise with the default sounds and are unable to do such an amazing thing themselves they are left out..

Also, yeah- Taiko uses taiko sounds. Would be kinda awkward to play taiko without a drum sound imho, on the other hand mania without osu sounds does not seem unbearable to me.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Well the mapping community in here has always hitsounded maps without issue, if anything they tend to go silent/low volume when the song itself goes super silent, that is how things work around here so far, and i still don't see a reason for people to avoid hitsounding mania other than "They don't want to". Please remember that to counter a rule, you need to bring real arguments and not "I don't like it" "It's too much effort" "I'm too lazy".

If there is anywhere else where you can do it that way, that doesn't mean it has to happen that way in here as well. Again, by muting hitsounds you're reducing the options for the players, specially the ones that actually want to play with hitsounds.
chonicle
201 posts
Joined August 2009
chonicle
After seeing so much discussion on the hitsound issue, I would like to throw my 2 cents here.

1. I know lots of previous o2mania/other mania game players and mappers that don't want to use osu default hitsounds on their maps. But some of them learned to do that and now we have ranked mania maps with semi-hitsounds. But still, there is lots of good map(in pattern, design) in the pending/graveyard but they can't be ranked due to this rule.

2. Seems like the auto-converted charts works fine with osu hitsounds. For easier maps, it is fine, but this is not the case for harder diffs. In harder diffs we usually map to some instruments(unlike in osu, most time it is mapped to the drums, sometimes instruments for bms songs), and these instruments has its own key-sound. In order to present these notes, one thing we can do is to use a midi program to export those key-sounds, which is time-consuming and even not possible for a mapper that is not trained to transcribe songs.
The auto-converted charts usually lack some of the notes in the instrument, therefore it's not complete. If we want to map the whole 1/4 piano key spam(usually appear in bms songs) and map it with default soft-normal, you will hear tons of soft-normal(it must be audible in current ranking criteria) instead of the original piano and no one likes that. It's not "performing the original music". Another example is the strings. Using drums sounds to represent strings is kind of stupid, and not everyone has the ability to get a 5G string soundbank to export those strings.

3. We don't want to just create another "o2mania like" game. If we can somehow integrate osu hitsounds into the mania system, it would be great. If we just use the usual hitsound method in osu and apply it in mania specific maps, lots of note will not be hitsounded since osu hitsound is meant to be only 1 track, or only the drum notes will be hitsounded. Then for the other notes, what hitsound do we assign to? The current method seems to be just put soft-normals on those notes so it won't feel strange when playing the song(It feels strange that some notes have hitsounds and others don't). So it goes back to my second point.

The idea of osumania is to allow all mania-like players to play in osu. If we do want to enforce this rule, I would suggest that the drums should be hitsounded, but the instrument notes can be silenced if the hitsound interferes with the original instrument sounds. It still feels strange that some notes are silenced and some are not though, I think that's why xxbidiao proposed a all keysound or all slient solution. Any thoughts?
whymeman
osu! Alumni
3,432 posts
Joined November 2008
whymeman
Hitsounds as far as I see it, are the "foundation" for indicating the existence of a note or beat. Removing it because of the "I don't like it" or "this needs to be like o2jam" excuses is silly and ignores logical thinking. Besides that, if default hitsounds aren't up to your liking, then try making a feature request instead of forcing a rule about it. Forcing silence on the notes because the default hitsounds "sound like crap" can end badly when you can't indicate how the flow of the beats work.
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias

Whymeman wrote:

Hitsounds as far as I see it, are the "foundation" for indicating the existence of a note or beat.
I competely disagree on this count. Visual indicators, AKA citcircles/sliders/notes/holds, are the "Foundation" for indicating the existence of a note or beat which has been mapped. If you were to remove hitsounds, you could still play provided you had visual indicators, but going only by hearing a correct sound when you press the correct key is like trying to play a song you've never played before on the piano without seeing the sheet music or hearing the song before you have to try to play it and only knowing you hit the right key when you hear sound. Basically impossible.

Whymeman wrote:

Removing it because of the "I don't like it" or "this needs to be like o2jam" excuses is silly and ignores logical thinking.
Don't bring up o2jam for the sake of naming o2jam. We're not mindlessly saying "it needs to be like o2jam" we're saying "in o2jam it was done this way for these reasons". The reasons are the important thing here, not whether it was o2jam or some other game. We could be saying "Every map should have full custom hitsounds because that's the way BMS works" but we aren't because we don't believe that is the right way to do things. It's not about what game someone might have played before osu!mania influencing what we want. This is about which features people have encountered in other similar games which osu!mania can learn from in order to enrich the experience for both the mapping community and the players.

Whymeman wrote:

Besides that, if default hitsounds aren't up to your liking, then try making a feature request instead of forcing a rule about it. Forcing silence on the notes because the default hitsounds "sound like crap" can end badly when you can't indicate how the flow of the beats work.
Have you read what we're discussing? We are not "forcing" anyone to do anything. In fact, we are specifically speaking out against forcing mappers to follow a rule, not enforcing the opposite of the rule. Reading comprehension is a prerequisite for arguing, among many other things.

Sakura wrote:

Well the mapping community in here has always hitsounded maps without issue, if anything they tend to go silent/low volume when the song itself goes super silent, that is how things work around here so far, and i still don't see a reason for people to avoid hitsounding mania other than "They don't want to". Please remember that to counter a rule, you need to bring real arguments and not "I don't like it" "It's too much effort" "I'm too lazy".

If there is anywhere else where you can do it that way, that doesn't mean it has to happen that way in here as well. Again, by muting hitsounds you're reducing the options for the players, specially the ones that actually want to play with hitsounds.
Before I say anything else I want to say that this:

Sakura wrote:

Well the mapping community in here has always hitsounded maps without issue
is not a valid argument. Period. Just because something has worked to some degree in the past does not mean that it is optimal, nor even better than its alternatives, especially considering that nobody here has actually tested to see what would happen if the rule WAS relaxed.

In 1 difficulty of mania it's possible to have as many objects as there are in an entire ranked osu map. Entozer's ChaiN De/structioN Easy difficulty has 385 objects (if my math is correct looking at the counts of MAX and 300 on the scoreboard). That's comparable to some Hard or Insane maps. For the easiest mania difficulty. I've seen single mania difficulties with more than 2k objects. Many ranked maps don't have this many objects in the entire map, let alone a single difficulty. So yes, I believe that hitsounding mania is indeed harder than standard, if only because of the sheer number of objects you deal with in mania.

Beyond that, the timing patterns in standard are often not very accurate to the music, and hitsounds allow the mapper to create a separate feedback rhythm which the player can listen to and use as audio cues. These audio cues are far more effective in cases where the mapped rhythm differs from the player's instinctive rhythmic inclinations (what the player thinks the rhythm should be). This is more common in standard because you are limited to a single rhythmic line as opposed to the possibility for multiple layers in mania. These audio cues are less necessary in mania because the notes in mania tend to be far more accurate to the music itself. On top of that, it is much easier to visually read rhythm pattern in mania than in osu. Assuming that there are no SV changes, notes patterns will always have the exact same distance between them at a given speed. In standard there are jumps, which break the visual cue of snap distance, making standard players more reliant on being able to use hitsounds to fill in this breaking of visual cues in favor of audio cues. This is unnecessary in mania because of the standard distance between objects.

Custom hitsounds like DJPop's maps are generally only possible when you can either recreate the music yourself like chonicle, or use already available sounds from BMS songs or songs from other music games. This should not be a realistic expectation, ever. Anyone who is capable of providing completely custom hitsounds is going far above and beyond what is necessary.

We're not asking that hitsounds be permanently disabled for every mania map, we're asking that the mappers who don't like hitsounds be allowed to release the map in the for they prefer, rather than conform to a standard being forced upon them.

chonicle:
I didnt want to quote your whole post, because I don't have individual responses for different things you said.

I definitely feel like semi-hitsounded maps where there may be some notes with sounds (like the drums you mention) would sound awkward. Probably more awkward than a map with standard style hitsounds. the other thing is this: If you create custom hitsounds from soundbanks like you mention, you are still being relatively limited by what soundbanks you have availabe. If you're using the real song as the background music, your hitsounds are going to sound ugly on top of the properly produced sounds of the music itself. Bad custom hitsounds would be far worse than even standard osu hitsounds. If you're working with electronic music, there are lots of synthesizer sounds you'll never be able to create a good custom hitsound for unless you are good enough to be working in the music recording industry.
xxbidiao
450 posts
Joined November 2008
xxbidiao

Sakura wrote:

Well the mapping community in here has always hitsounded maps without issue, if anything they tend to go silent/low volume when the song itself goes super silent, that is how things work around here so far, and i still don't see a reason for people to avoid hitsounding mania other than "They don't want to". Please remember that to counter a rule, you need to bring real arguments and not "I don't like it" "It's too much effort" "I'm too lazy".

If there is anywhere else where you can do it that way, that doesn't mean it has to happen that way in here as well. Again, by muting hitsounds you're reducing the options for the players, specially the ones that actually want to play with hitsounds.


...

Edit: lol ninja'd, the above poster kind of has some sort of reasoning, and I'd like to say "If there are multiple keys you can hitsound one and silence the rest" but then if they miss the hitsounded one and hit the silent one it'd be just awkward, i wonder if wok can do something about this (like use only one hitsound for all keys on multikey presses defined by the hitsound in X or something like that)
Thank you for reading my post and former discussion!
Though, I hope you may want to read the former discussion thoroughly and dig into mania mapping technique more to avoid getting into some obvious misunderstanding, such as hitsounding in osu! standard and key-sounding in mania.

For example, just like your interpreting of the second sum-up reason.
Osu! Hitsound is allowed to be out of music, BUT MANIA IS NOT. Mania hitsound IS BY DEFINITION IN THE MUSIC. (That's why we urge custom "hitsound")
You can add whatever to the music, or even overmapping on the osu!standard, BUT NOT IN MANIA.
That make "hitsounding" a whole different world.

Things are just like composing and discomposing.
Osu! standard hitsounding is like you ASSEMBLE a robot, though hard, you have a plan to do so, and you have the right to shuffle your plan or to make it as you like.
BUT mania hitsounding is like you DISASSEMBLE and RE-ASSEMBLE it. You don't have the right to modify it. You don't have FREED_OM to do so. You have to ONE-BY-ONE follow the original music, and current technique in the world is not enough to do so. (If you can do so, why do we need mp3 format?)

You may find chonicle's map extremely interesting because it feature the whole "hitsound" with piano and other instruments. He/She actually made a whole song from blank paper "LIKE" the original song. But whatever effort he or she had made, it is not the original song. As a fully piano song, quality may be better by reassembling, but if the song is a complex one with both lots of instruments and vocal, or just a TV-size? It's already a consensus in mania society that a song with vocal is impossible to reassemble in current technology. Anyway this become an addition to my explanation to my second reason.

Furthermore, if there are 3 note at the same time, to assign one with full hitsounding and other with nothing is mostly NOT appreciated. (Why don't I say forbidden? Sometimes it is impossible to discompose these extra hitsound out, so there is a sound for the note, but it is on the BGM, meaning that whether you hit or not the sound would always be heard. Yes, "Storyboarded hitsound".)

Anyway, take some example on real key-sounded maps (and try to discompose it) and you'll know why.
One of my example (WIP): https://osu.ppy.sh/s/92190

whymeman wrote:

Hitsounds as far as I see it, are the "foundation" for indicating the existence of a note or beat. Removing it because of the "I don't like it" or "this needs to be like o2jam" excuses is silly and ignores logical thinking. Besides that, if default hitsounds aren't up to your liking, then try making a feature request instead of forcing a rule about it. Forcing silence on the notes because the default hitsounds "sound like crap" can end badly when you can't indicate how the flow of the beats work.
We are not talking about forcing silence.
We are asking for rule that accept silence hitsounding.
Sometimes default hitsound is OK, but not for every song.
Currently, Both 5% hitsound and slient .wav in the whole song is not allowed by ranking criteria (in general rules.)
We are struggling to make at least one of them acceptable.

In your post you have mentioned "foundation" for indicating the existence of a note or beat is the reason for hitsound.
I want to clarify the main difference between these two mapping technique reflecting from different hitsound definition.
In Mania, the sound is there - you are going to play it(On customized hitsound maps) or to emulate "to play it"(On what we are discussion on, the non-custom hitsound maps, or non-keysounded charts).
So the only thing to indicate the existence of the note is THE SOUND OF THE NOTE ITSELF. not a drum hit or a whistle.(When the note itself doesn't implicit a drum hit or whistle, e.g. piano sound)
We mania mappers are struggling to make every note give best feedback, or to say, "With no hitsound you are just like playing hitsound". But assigning a not relevant hitsound to a note is really not a good idea.

chonicle wrote:

I know lots of previous o2mania/other mania game players and mappers that don't want to use osu default hitsounds on their maps. But some of them learned to do that and now we have ranked mania maps with semi-hitsounds.
The logic in this argument somewhat flawed because you just don't know whether they have learned or they "are forced to" "learn" that. Since after nearly a half year, ranked maps are yet a minimum subset with not so fast growing speed, we can't get to that point in a flash.
Ameto11
38 posts
Here since the beginning
Ameto11
I'd like to ask why the solution previously proposed here is not good enough for people that want no hitsound? Let me quote the relevant part:

MMzz wrote:

You are free to use silent hitsounds in your own skin, or turn the effect volume down to zero if you want your hits to be silent.
While I played O2Jam and IIDX my entire life and don't quite agree with osu! style hitsounds on mania mode, like said above they're not forced on you. If you remove/silence hitsounds from individual maps you're forcing people that might want to have hitsounds in their songs to not have them. There's not even any indication there are more players that want no hitsounds than the other way around, it might be the case there's not many o!m players against no hitsounds posting here because they're not aware it's an issue to other players and don't know this topic exists.
xxbidiao
450 posts
Joined November 2008
xxbidiao

Draconi wrote:

I'd like to ask why the solution previously proposed here is not good enough for people that want no hitsound? Let me quote the relevant part:

MMzz wrote:

You are free to use silent hitsounds in your own skin, or turn the effect volume down to zero if you want your hits to be silent.
While I played O2Jam and IIDX my entire life and don't quite agree with osu! style hitsounds on mania mode, like said above they're not forced on you. If you remove/silence hitsounds from individual maps you're forcing people that might want to have hitsounds in their songs to not have them. There's not even any indication there are more players that want no hitsounds than the other way around, it might be the case there's not many o!m players against no hitsounds posting here because they're not aware it's an issue to other players and don't know this topic exists.
Like mentioned in that post, a mapper decided to mute hitsound has his or her own reasons to DEFAULT shuts them. Whatever the reason is, he or she think that makes the quality better.
You may have noticed that your first play in any song is tightly restricted. That's because mappers want players to get exactly what they want to present. After the second play, do whatever you want is OK.
Of course we can use silent hitsound in my skin, but we can't make a player who first time touch the map to do so. And I have mentioned the mappers think the song originally need mute of hitsound, and this request can not be met by this solution.

For anyone who still need hitsound, play the second time and click the use my skin button and everything will come back. (When map use silent .wav/.ogg)

Yeah, for there are not so many specific maps in ranked pool. I believe you point in the last sentence. We are mostly playing converted maps without this problem. (Though the hitsound just don't met the mania type, but anyway it's already off-topic.)
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
And I already mentioned why disabling skin/hitsounds is no viable option for players against this.
Sp3ct3r_2k11
56 posts
Joined March 2011
Sp3ct3r_2k11
I still am utterly confused on this subject from the start of when people started complaining. It's obvious that we're making this an option so that we have more flexibility over maps. We are not 100% against mapping o!m maps with osu! hitsounds. We just want more flexibility. It's not even an extremely damaging change that could ruin everyone's gameplay experience. So, this is my question. Why should hitsounds be forced into gameplay? If you're going to respond with another "because it's osu!", then let me ask you this. Why did you add osu!mania in the first place? From when this type of gameplay was introduced, it's obvious that the maps that were made in games similar to this are made by even more professional beatmappers that spend a LOT of time inserting instrument pieces into individual notes. It's time consuming, and will stress out other new mappers. Now, the next thing that you're probably going to say is that "you can just use osu! hitsounds". Well, to be frankly honest, osu! hitsounds are awkward if we map it with the styles of other games. Automatically converted maps might sound good because the hitsounds are intended for osu! gameplay, but it has that "awkward feeling" that some people don't like. It's like the hitsound's pattern are extremely constraining patterns and notes that we could actually use on maps. It hinders creativity that has the potential to make a great map. Even without hitsounds! So, let me ask you this. If you don't like what we think how o!m should be mapped and played, why stick around with osu!mania at all? If you're just attracting players that loves these types of gameplay, then listen to what we have to say about it. We're trying to point out what osu!mania should have to have suitable gameplay for everyone to enjoy. You could have people enjoy osu!-style maps, and some can even enjoy other styles of mapping.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan

DJKero wrote:

Well, this is a really important thing to disscuss, I think here all the oldies will agree that this needs to be unapplied to osu!mania maps because it disencourages mappers to make beatmaps, and it isn't a really good rule for something that never was a problem on O2Jam and other beat/music games...
osu!mania =/= o2Jam, just making sure that you appreciate that.

To hitsound everything is of course a stupid thing, also because sometimes it cannot be hitsounded or/and it would be awful. However there is still a lot of possibilities you can use... Asking friends/other mappers, doing the Hitsounds yourself or just trying to be creative. Honestly I see enough ways that this Rule won't butthurt us.
Sp3ct3r_2k11
56 posts
Joined March 2011
Sp3ct3r_2k11

Stefan wrote:

osu!mania =/= o2Jam, just making sure that you appreciate that.
I say it can be both!

Stefan wrote:

To hitsound everything is of course a stupid thing, also because sometimes it cannot be hitsounded or/and it would be awful. However there is still a lot of possibilities you can use... Asking friends/other mappers, doing the Hitsounds yourself or just trying to be creative. Honestly I see enough ways that this Rule won't butthurt us.
Stefan, that's how most rhythm games of this type works anyways. It's either that, or silent hitsound. Of course, some songs can also be mapped with osu!'s hitsounds, but some might not sound just as good. I'd like to see that we can actually do both and please both sides and also make the gameplay as fun and enjoyable as others would like. Some people might be irritated by this rule. That is why we are asking for more flexibility and control over our maps. We could make a great quality map even without having to be hooked by hitsounds.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
So we're talking about Hits which should not have been heard. Just asking in the round: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/91285 <- The begin of NM 5K got five Beats with a Volume Section of 5%. Is this allowed?
xxbidiao
450 posts
Joined November 2008
xxbidiao

Stefan wrote:

So we're talking about Hits which should not have been heard. Just asking in the round: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/91285 <- The begin of NM 5K got five Beats with a Volume Section of 5%. Is this allowed?
Looking at ranking criteria:

Ranking Criteria General wrote:

Hitsounds from notes and sliders must be audible. These provide feedback for the player, and having them silent in a rhythm game doesn't make much sense... Lowering the volume of a few notes to provide a dampened effect is usually fine, but complete silence is always unacceptable. ...
Furthermore, some BAT told me that 5% in a long run is not acceptable at all (Not qualified as lowering volume, but complete silence). Your case of 5% in few notes can not be easily judged, you may want to ask a BAT for explanation.
HanzeR
921 posts
Joined May 2012
HanzeR
At the vast majority of gameplay levels in mania we map so that every key in a map is corresponding to a note in the song. This contrasts with standard where rhythyms can be broken up, modified, combined and morphed to allow the mapper to express the song.

Understanding that fact, whereas hitsounding in Standard generally functions as a guide to players to understanding the maps rhythym, hitsounding in mania requires most people to add artificial rhythyms and sounds to their map to meet ranking criteria. It should be obvious that this has a very large and negative impact on gameplay.

I feel like most standard mappers view it as mania mappers being lazy or wanting to find an easy way out,, however, since mapping philosophy between mania and standard are so different mania mappers are essentially held to a standard higher even the best osu standard hitsounders, or they are forced to ruin the integrity of their map with artificial noise that makes the map un-fun to play.

Either that, or they give up on the ranking system and we find hundreds of amazing mania maps that will never get ranked sitting in pending.
DJKero
231 posts
Here since the beginning
Topic Starter
DJKero
It's like Whymeman and Sakura, along with Peppy and Osu! Standard Beatmappers just don't understand the job behind making a good Mania Hit-Sounded beatmap...

=========================================================================================

1st point of all:

The need of making a song from scratch like a Musical Producer to have the Instruments separated and the access of all hitsounds needed to hitsound that map.

Some will say: "You can do it with Generic hitsounds or something like that..." Well, If I want to do that, first of all I need to invest a lot of time downloading INFINITE SOUNDFONTS in .wav from each existing instrument in the world, and consider the tones that can be adjusted just only 1 instrument that is basically UNIQUE and not similar to other one...

Also, this job is basically, so much more effort that a Musical Producer puts on generating a new song... a Musical Producer is paid though a beatmapper just do it for free...

If you want you can ask the guys that already beatmapped with Full-Hitsounded Songs: DJPop and Hanyuu. Also Hanyuu already said it shortly, that this isn't a thing that everyone can do, EVEN IF THEY WANT, AND PUT SO MUCH EFFORT ON IT.

2nd point:

For me, and I think the majority of beatmappers, making a beatmap with a few basic hitsounds is like putting dirt into a piece of art that one did by hand...

If someone will hitsound, mostly will do that JOB that i explained before...

Making a new song, or searching in a Sound DB of GB's or TB's for the EXACTLY MATCHING HITSOUNDS, and that is someone will do for one of their favourite songs that want to make a FULL QUALITY BEATMAP... Not for every map he'll do.

3rd point:

Understand that yeah, for not insane/hard difficulties we can hitsound with custom basic hitsounds or default ones from osu!, just some "significant sounds" and that stuff, for most of the people this will be like ruining the piece of art that he/she created.

Yeah, we can do it, it's not like a really hard job...

But it's something almost impossible, or definitely ruining a difficulty when it comes to HARD/INSANE, Another, HD MX or SC, etc...

And what we like of mapping is mapping the hard ones, the easy difficulties are the ones we are kinda forced by the community to make, you know, for rank criteria, and for the newbies having songs to play...

=========================================================================================

Aside from this points, the "Reason to avoid the rule" or the "Fundament" behind this petition we already proposed 3 times counting this one are really clear, you just don't want to see them...

1- Personally, I don't like the fact of being FORCED to NOTHING.

2- Aside from being forced, I know that I can't hitsound a Hard/Insane correctly because most of the times, without hitsounding I get mad of me because I didn't liked the beatmap to the 100%, I'm too much perfectionist, I always see something wrong with the things I do.

3- If I can do hitsounding correctly, magically in Hard/Insanes too, out there, a lot of mappers will get banned of getting their maps ranked because they REALLY CAN'T do it, and as a pair to they I will feel really sad of it, because it's not something easy to teach to other...

4- So many beatmappers will ruin their beatmaps to the eye of a experienced beatgamer, to a new player or a osu! common player it will be fine, but for the one's who knows the essence of this mode it will maybe sound too much TAIKO-ISH or not correctly applied.

If you think there's no reason for getting a bit mad with the hitsounding rule, well... You have several comprehension problems... (Without offense) ;)
DJKero
231 posts
Here since the beginning
Topic Starter
DJKero

Stefan wrote:

DJKero wrote:

Well, this is a really important thing to disscuss, I think here all the oldies will agree that this needs to be unapplied to osu!mania maps because it disencourages mappers to make beatmaps, and it isn't a really good rule for something that never was a problem on O2Jam and other beat/music games...
osu!mania =/= o2Jam, just making sure that you appreciate that.

To hitsound everything is of course a stupid thing, also because sometimes it cannot be hitsounded or/and it would be awful. However there is still a lot of possibilities you can use... Asking friends/other mappers, doing the Hitsounds yourself or just trying to be creative. Honestly I see enough ways that this Rule won't butthurt us.
Also, I want to you to read correctly and appreciate there says O2Jam AND OTHER BEAT/MUSICGAMES.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
This is osu!. This will stay to be osu!. So referring to other rhythm games and it's common practise is invalid.
Just because all other games do it, it's not automatically correct. If you can point up, why it is correct and why all other games do it, then it's turning valid.

But bringing the simple reason "but 99% of the games do that" is the same like saying that killing people is suddenly cool and allowed, if everyone starts doing it. There are reasons why it is not cool. Same goes for any other reasons, issues, if this refers to real life, to game structure, to rules, to laws, to anything - even in osu.
Agka
680 posts
Joined January 2009
Agka
I know my opinion will be just disregarded because "that's how osu! rolls". I was asked to say what I think about this.

But I'm here to say the following.

We, the players and charters have been around for longer than osu! has been. And whatever conditioning comes with ouendan's inheritance (hitsounds) it fried the staff's and every other osu! mapper's minds.

Ouendan had hitsound feedback because the screen wasn't enough. No tactile feedback, no extra lights, the hitbursts would feel weak. But here, in the mode we have been playing for years. Years. In which we have people who already mastered this mode in all ways possible- I find complete bullshit that OTO's standards just made everyone think that hitsounds will forever be "the right way<tm>" but alas, everyone is wrong. We've had tactile feedback (Buttons!) and lights, and animations, and they all feel sweet when we see them. If osu!mania is to survive and "hitsounds" are the only answer (BOO OSU'S IDENTITY :( ) you can give to making it unique or special then sorry, I'll just go back to playing BMS/o2jam/stepmania/djmax/pop'n'music/piu/ddr/sound voltex/long etc that has proper keysounding or of course, allows silent hitsounds, or feedback only when required. osu!mania has nothing unique about it- so allow us to take it where we want it to go.

Trying to justify that osu!mania is going to be better than anything that already exists because we're using hitsounds is just silly, and you're all just conditioned to think hitsounds are the right way to do things. The interface is still the same since 2007. The new UI elements are just enhancements, not changes. It's pink/blue. Hitsounds too, with exception of the drum set.

But you can just go and play them unranked!: Even if I could think this- Everything about osu! is built around the ranked system. And of course, right now thinking it's an utopia would just be plain foolish. Players will play ranked maps only because osu! claims that ranked beatmaps are "guaranteed quality" and we all know that all they are is "maps that we warranty follow some guidelines". I mind all of this because since osu! is pretty popular (not because of osu!mania though) the new generation of mania players will grow up with osu's bad taste.

So, of all, I know I'll get a few answers like these. "Oh, but then just quit". I quitted. I just came back to post because a friend asked me to. "Oh, but osu's normal hitsounds are enough". No they're not. They're awful and feel wrong in this mode. It feels half-assed. Mediocre. Poor. No hitsounds at all are enough because we get tactile feedback. If your screen barely moves it's not our problem, because we can't do much than using a limited skin system which woc2006 has greatly enhanced recently. "Oh, but it's for osu!'s consistency!" Consistency is internal. As long as internal consistency is kept, there's no problem. Keep internal consistency in osu!mania where it's either silent hitsounds, low volume hitsounds or full blown keysounding.

If you guys think hitsounds must be forced on this mode because other modes have them, congratulations, you're guilty of the same "this ranked map does it so I can too" like "fallacy".

TL;DR: Pull that stick out of your ass. If you're going to answer to this post, good luck- I won't answer. You would know why if you read this post. I'm just giving my opinion.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
No, I'm not saying it's beause osu! uses them, but because certain players prefer to play with hitsounds, and if mappers don't use hitsounds then players are forced to play without them, whereas if mappers use hitsounds then the players have the choice of using them, using hitsounds from their own skin or just muting them.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan

Agka wrote:

I know my opinion will be just disregarded because "that's how osu! rolls". I was asked to say what I think about this. To give your opinion has always a place.

But I'm here to say the following.

We, the players and charters have been around for longer than osu! has been. And whatever conditioning comes with ouendan's inheritance (hitsounds) it fried the staff's and every other osu! mapper's minds.

Ouendan had hitsound feedback because the screen wasn't enough. No tactile feedback, no extra lights, the hitbursts would feel weak. But here, in the mode we have been playing for years. Years. In which we have people who already mastered this mode in all ways possible- I find complete bullshit that OTO's standards just made everyone think that hitsounds will forever be "the right way<tm>" but alas, everyone is wrong. We've had tactile feedback (Buttons!) and lights, and animations, and they all feel sweet when we see them. If osu!mania is to survive and "hitsounds" are the only answer (BOO OSU'S IDENTITY :( ) you can give to making it unique or special then sorry, I'll just go back to playing BMS/o2jam/stepmania/djmax/pop'n'music/piu/ddr/sound voltex/long etc that has proper keysounding or of course, allows silent hitsounds, or feedback only when required. osu!mania has nothing unique about it- so allow us to take it where we want it to go. In this point I would say: it's osu!. Not OTO, not anything else. It just didn't took more as five years that osu! became to that what we know now. One way of the changes to the Game itself but also to the rules and criterias.

Trying to justify that osu!mania is going to be better than anything that already exists because we're using hitsounds is just silly, and you're all just conditioned to think hitsounds are the right way to do things. The interface is still the same since 2007. The new UI elements are just enhancements, not changes. It's pink/blue. Hitsounds too, with exception of the drum set. So.. you expect that the old things NEEDS to be changed and/or that the old Hitsounds from 2007 and the basic structure how osu! looks is not that good anymore? (I know that you won't answer on it, I am only asking) We're using Hitsounds because they are part of a Beatmap. They always were and will be.

But you can just go and play them unranked! That's what I would to suggest. You're allowed to map things with silent Hitsounds but don't expect to rank them then.: Even if I could think this- Everything about osu! is built around the ranked system. And of course, right now thinking it's an utopia would just be plain foolish. Players will play ranked maps only because osu! claims that ranked beatmaps are "guaranteed quality" and we all know that all they are is "maps that we warranty follow some guidelines". I mind all of this because since osu! is pretty popular (not because of osu!mania though) the new generation of mania players will grow up with osu's bad taste. Everyone is allowed to play what he wants. People perfer ranked Maps more as unranked and of course swaped. Sorry if people do not find their Game here because xyz Game does have it and o!m don't but no one purposed that.

So, of all, I know I'll get a few answers like these. "Oh, but then just quit". I quitted. I just came back to post because a friend asked me to. "Oh, but osu's normal hitsounds are enough". No they're not. They're awful and feel wrong in this mode. It feels half-assed. Mediocre. Poor. No hitsounds at all are enough because we get tactile feedback. If your screen barely moves it's not our problem, because we can't do much than using a limited skin system which woc2006 has greatly enhanced recently. "Oh, but it's for osu!'s consistency!" Consistency is internal. As long as internal consistency is kept, there's no problem. Keep internal consistency in osu!mania where it's either silent hitsounds, low volume hitsounds or full blown keysounding. And I said on my previous post that you should look for custom Hitsounds. Honestly they are enough o!m Mapper/Player which can help you with that and if the single person cannot even do that then I have no idea what to suggest more. You're forgetting how many options the Editor - whetever which one - gives us and what we can do there. And it's getting more and more. And one of these things, to add custom Hitsounds, is a excellent tool. I do not expect that everyone makes his own Hitsounds since this is really hard to do but to bring the effort to ask around for help/feedback is a minimum.

If you guys think hitsounds must be forced on this mode because other modes have them, congratulations, you're guilty of the same "this ranked map does it so I can too" like "fallacy".

TL;DR: Pull that stick out of your ass. If you're going to answer to this post, good luck- I won't answer. You would know why if you read this post. I'm just giving my opinion.
Sey
1,406 posts
Joined October 2010
Sey
Dear Agka: You want to give an opinion but do not want to answer on critics. That is cowardous. If you have such a based mind about hitsounds in osumania it is also needed to answer critics to come to a conclusion. (I will just not lose that opinion. I don't like it when people write an opinion but say then they gonna ignore everything in future.)

I want that you are not starting a rage here and that's why it is the most mature way just to erase the stupid voice before.
Last edited by Sey , edited 2 times in total.
xxbidiao
450 posts
Joined November 2008
xxbidiao
Stefan, why we are listing out other similar music games is NOT because we think osumania should become them, BUT because they can be referenced as a guidance. What we say here are based on tens of years of best practice. Please take enough respect and refrain from saying "It's o2jam/BMS/DJMAX or whatsoever and since osumania != o2jam/BMS/DJMAX or whatsoever we should never take anything good from them". (Oh you won't say this because the o!m mode which takes good from other games exist here, right?)

Back to the post itself, I was pretty sure that you have not dig into what mania hitsound is. I won't repeat my explanation: See the discussion above. To sum up, OSU hitsounding and O!M hitsounding is 2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT hitsounding style, and no evidence show that hitsounding experience in standard mode is still precious (or even say, usable) in o!m.

It's not because our laziness to find THOUSANDS OF DIFFERENT HITSOUNDS in a single map, but to be honest, it is impossible in a great portion of song.

Sakura wrote:

No, I'm not saying it's beause osu! uses them, but because certain players prefer to play with hitsounds, and if mappers don't use hitsounds then players are forced to play without them, whereas if mappers use hitsounds then the players have the choice of using them, using hitsounds from their own skin or just muting them.
And Sey, For who want the hitsound, We have a solution: play the song once, and in the second run, press the buttom in the official visual fix to use your skin's hitsound (overriding beatmap hitsounding), and you'll get everything back. (Or you may want to ask peppy to lift the limit of no such limit in the first run.)

Stefan wrote:

And I said on my previous post that you should look for custom Hitsounds. Honestly they are enough o!m Mapper/Player which can help you with that and if the single person cannot even do that then I have no idea what to suggest more. You're forgetting how many options the Editor - whetever which one - gives us and what we can do there. And it's getting more and more. And one of these things, to add custom Hitsounds, is a excellent tool. I do not expect that everyone makes his own Hitsounds since this is really hard to do but to bring the effort to ask around for help/feedback is a minimum.

Sey wrote:

why don't you just make a Thread where all mania lovers can upload their favourised hitsounds and collect them? (If a thread of that kind doesn't exist already.
Forgive my offence, but you surely don't know what o!m hitsounding is. IT"S IMPOSSIBLE TO DO SO because mania hitsounding is a work of de-conposing of the song, and if you can form a song with just 1TB library of "hitsound library", why do we need MP3 format?
In other word, every different song has their different hitsound. Though a few gradually similar(like drum/snear), with different setting and mixing of the song, it goes extremely bad with another song's existing hitsound.
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
Locking temporary to take care of the clash of egos

Okay, done. Keep the discussion civil, we're not here to know who of you can be the most annoying. If you want to contribute to the thread, make sure your ego doesn't get in the way.

unlocking, good luck with this discussion
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
Hitsounds are important. They provide feedback on top of what's already there in the song. Mapping isn't composing and it's not really necessary to match the track note-for-note. I don't really know what the crack is with osu!mania in general, but I know the importance of tactility in a game like this. Hitsounds aren't incidental and they tell the player that they've hit a specific object successfully.

If the default hitsounds don't work, then find a few sounds which do. There doesn't need to be a 1TB library of WAVs in a single map, because it's entirely plausible that a few hitsounds can be combined in different ways in order to be expressive. If a player is allergic to audible feedback, then they can turn off the hitsounds.
xxbidiao
450 posts
Joined November 2008
xxbidiao

D33d wrote:

Hitsounds are important. They provide feedback on top of what's already there in the song. Mapping isn't composing and it's not really necessary to match the track note-for-note. I don't really know what the crack is with osu!mania in general, but I know the importance of tactility in a game like this. Hitsounds aren't incidental and they tell the player that they've hit a specific object successfully.

If the default hitsounds don't work, then find a few sounds which do. There doesn't need to be a 1TB library of WAVs in a single map, because it's entirely plausible that a few hitsounds can be combined in different ways in order to be expressive. If a player is allergic to audible feedback, then they can turn off the hitsounds.
Hitsounds ARE important. But it's different in osu! standard from osu!mania.

MAPPING IS COMPOSING in osu!mania.
YOU REALLY NEED TO MATCH THE TRACK NOTE-FOR-NOTE. (As a mapper in osu!mania, it is common sense that you should know what every note represents in the music.)
This is the basic of osu!mania mapping.
We have a discussion on t/127565 which had already clarify this, including how

D33d wrote:

They provide feedback on top of what's already there in the song.
Anyway I'll give some external ways to find some hitsounding game to make the point clear.
For I'm in China, a country you know So I can't provide y2b links, but if you are interested, you can search for some heavily key-sound biased examples using some keywords below:
VOS (A game which plays MIDI files)
Beatmania IIDX (A game which the studio make the song and mix them with a chart to present player a real feel of DJ-ing.)

And you may get a more complex understanding of o!m hitsounding just by looking at a few videos. (Throw these long and *ing explanations away! )


Actually I have talked to woc that whether midi support would be added to o!m, but yet no evidence show that it would be present for a long time. This is the only case I would thought of with "universal-usabl
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

xxbidiao wrote:

D33d wrote:

Hitsounds are important. They provide feedback on top of what's already there in the song. Mapping isn't composing and it's not really necessary to match the track note-for-note. I don't really know what the crack is with osu!mania in general, but I know the importance of tactility in a game like this. Hitsounds aren't incidental and they tell the player that they've hit a specific object successfully.

If the default hitsounds don't work, then find a few sounds which do. There doesn't need to be a 1TB library of WAVs in a single map, because it's entirely plausible that a few hitsounds can be combined in different ways in order to be expressive. If a player is allergic to audible feedback, then they can turn off the hitsounds.
Hitsounds ARE important. But it's different in osu! standard from osu!mania.

MAPPING IS COMPOSING in osu!mania.
YOU REALLY NEED TO MATCH THE TRACK NOTE-FOR-NOTE. (As a mapper in osu!mania, it is common sense that you should know what every note represents in the music.)
This is the basic of osu!mania mapping.
We have a discussion on t/127565 which had already clarify this, including how

D33d wrote:

They provide feedback on top of what's already there in the song.
Anyway I'll give some external ways to find some hitsounding game to make the point clear.
For I'm in China, a country you know So I can't provide y2b links, but if you are interested, you can search for some heavily key-sound biased examples using some keywords below:
VOS (A game which plays MIDI files)
Beatmania IIDX (A game which the studio make the song and mix them with a chart to present player a real feel of DJ-ing.)

And you may get a more complex understanding of o!m hitsounding just by looking at a few videos. (Throw these long and *ing explanations away! )


Actually I have talked to woc that whether midi support would be added to o!m, but yet no evidence show that it would be present for a long time. This is the only case I would thought of with "universal-usabl
No need for caps, laddie. I get that o!m needs to follow every rhythm--I was talking about the hitsounds themselves. I don't see why it isn't plausible to choose a few subtle, repeatable hitsounds and then have several for different kinds of emphasis. The fact that the mapper's basically following every discernible rhythm makes it even less like composition, as there's no requirement for musical interpretation--it's arranged as-is.

I know that the use of hitsounds would make this less "authentic," but would it not be good for differentiation? All I'm saying is that o!m hitsounds could still sound like a percussion line. As entire songs are being reduced to a few keys, I don't see why that wouldn't be sensible.
benguin
277 posts
Joined January 2012
benguin
Not sure if this applies to everyone, but I noticed that my keytaps tend to be louder and more distinct when I play o!m and other mania-like games compared to standard. Thus, one could argue that the sound of one's own keytaps could function as a hitsound in itself. Just some food for thought.
xxbidiao
450 posts
Joined November 2008
xxbidiao

D33d wrote:

No need for caps, laddie. I get that o!m needs to follow every rhythm--I was talking about the hitsounds themselves. I don't see why it isn't plausible to choose a few subtle, repeatable hitsounds and then have several for different kinds of emphasis. The fact that the mapper's basically following every discernible rhythm makes it even less like composition, as there's no requirement for musical interpretation--it's arranged as-is.

I know that the use of hitsounds would make this less "authentic," but would it not be good for differentiation? All I'm saying is that o!m hitsounds could still sound like a percussion line. As entire songs are being reduced to a few keys, I don't see why that wouldn't be sensible.
In all means it is not a good option.

Firstly, it is going away from mania's hitsound basement that it "add the sound". You mostly can't add a hitsound to the music unless you think this hitsound is proper to INSERT into music. (Kind of thought process when you consider whether to overmap or not)

Secondly, In a great deal of songs you can't find such repeatable sound. There's enough example of a 2k note key-sounded map with ~500 different samples which none of them was used more than 20 times. That would just make the map without hitsound in most notes - still unrankable. Furthermore, you may have known that different from osu! standard where you mostly map heavy beats and vocals, o!m maps nearly everything possible, and presenting them at the same time. Only featuring a part of the hitsound is not OK since a long enough period of slient hitsound would just make your map graveyarded like I said earlier.

Thirdly, There are one big problem, that is to delete these drum hits from the original song. It is EXTREMELY HARD - Look at DJPop's beatmap, again, no offence, but the hitsound on that map is UNACCEPTABLE to our core mania players. Only to disassemble such notes will make mappers and players cry.

So these arguments just come to the conclusion that it is not suitable to only consider a few beats to be hitsounded.
(P.S. You want these notes hitsounded and other notes be normal-soft? Randomly pick some map in pending and you'll just know what the hell that would be. Also you can check my poll, on the first page I have some example on bad usage of normal-soft.)

benguin wrote:

Not sure if this applies to everyone, but I noticed that my keytaps tend to be louder and more distinct when I play o!m and other mania-like games compared to standard. Thus, one could argue that the sound of one's own keytaps could function as a hitsound in itself. Just some food for thought.

I may say that this is the situation when I play some of my private collection of super-hard songs :)
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
These are all fairly enlightening points and I know where you're coming from. However, wouldn't the bad hitsounds simply be the result of somebody being bad at hitsounding in general? I know that it's a very different game mode, but taiko seems to work with every rhythm--and then some--being given four types of hitsound. Also, I never really considered softnormals to be effective in quick succession, because they sound weak. Repeated drumnormals seem to work very well for faster runs, which would surely be a start. I only said that as an example, as people have the capacity to be creative.

If not, then there are up to a hundred slots for custom samples. It should be quite possible to use far fewer than that amount in ways which are varied and appropriate. I'm not saying that as some ignorant standard mapper--I'm saying that as an experienced musician. All I'm saying is that I don't see why everything would have to be hitsounded so differently, just because there are examples which are. Besides, if people want to be so thorough, then they should go the extra mile instead of quitting and saying, "Fuck this NO HITSOUNDS." That kind of attitude bothers me slightly. Why shouldn't we strive towards using osu! standards to improve the style's experience in this way?
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

xxbidiao wrote:

And Sey, For who want the hitsound, We have a solution: play the song once, and in the second run, press the buttom in the official visual fix to use your skin's hitsound (overriding beatmap hitsounding), and you'll get everything back. (Or you may want to ask peppy to lift the limit of no such limit in the first run.)
Ok since you didn't read i'll explain it again
Ignore Hitsound, turns all hitsounds into the hitsound the mapper used (Normal, Clap, Whistle, Finish) by using the player's hitsounds instead of the mapper's custom hitsounds.
If the mapper uses blank.wav and doesn't care about hitsounding the map, the hitsounds are going to sound as just hitnormal, since the mapper didn't set claps, whistles or finishes anywhere, this defeats the purpose of appropriate hitsounding.
If the mapper uses decides to actually do proper hitsounding on the map, why would they be using blank.wav?
Either way you look at it, the players are still alienated.

By apprpriate hitsounding i meant something that isn't spamming the same hitsound through the whole map :P proper hitsounding depends on the map and song and would be modded on a case by case basis, tho i think woc's thread is the best solution atm.
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
I think it's time for you to stop posting, DJKero.

I will keep this locked. If anyone wants it re-opened, PM me. The discussion is going to have to halt here. Rule isn't changed for now.
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz
This is the same discussion that happened in the last thread, so this thread is completely unnecessary. The rule was already stated not to change, so with no new arguments this thread if going into denied.
Last edited by Loctav , edited 1 time in total.
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