those wrote:

Sync wrote:

good overmapping won't feel like overmapping

Doesn't change the fact it is overmapping. And that's the problem here; determining whether a map is good should come after whether it follows the music.

Let me put it in words for you:

You're trying too hard.

If you don't go looking for overmapping, and it doesn't stick out to you, it should be fine since that means the majority of players won't notice it, unless you don't trust your judgement, which I think you do since you're always so sure about it.

If it DOES stick out to you then it might be a problem.

This is my rule of thumb when I go modding maps.

Nyquill wrote:

If you don't go looking for overmapping, and it doesn't stick out to you, it should be fine since that means the majority of players won't notice it, unless you don't trust your judgement, which I think you do since you're always so sure about it.

It's not my fault it automatically screams in my face though. It comes with experience.

i was going to put it in words for those: you're being a prick!!!!111oneone
but nyquill did it better

Also theres different mapping style
1.Seeing mapping as a remix of a song
2.Mapping what exact the song
3.Mapping the own feeling of themselves

If the rule ran,1 and 3 mapping styles would be disappear.
Thats mean no more 0108 lks sandpig whoever.
98%of ranked maps will break that rule.

those wrote:

Nyquill wrote:

If you don't go looking for overmapping, and it doesn't stick out to you, it should be fine since that means the majority of players won't notice it, unless you don't trust your judgement, which I think you do since you're always so sure about it.

It's not my fault it automatically screams in my face though. It comes with experience.

That means you admit not standing for the majority, the better of the community then?

I personally do not overmap, but at the same time I'm not against overmapping. If some mappers likes it, then I don't mind.

i feel tempted to point out that a vast majority of players just wants to hit circles and likes saying things along the lines of "omg only the objects matter that is the only thing that is the map the rest is unneeded"

but yeah, many maps have something that feels overmapped and the most cases, in my experience, are 1/2 sliders starting on red ticks where there is nothing or if there is something, it is an instrument the mapper did not follow the whole time before and just uses it as an excuse when poked on it - tales of modding S:

Nyquill wrote:

That means you admit not standing for the majority, the better of the community then?

I wouldn't go so far as to saying the better, but even if the majority stands for something I don't stand for, I can't do anything about it but to continually convince them.

those wrote:

Sync wrote:

good overmapping won't feel like overmapping

Doesn't change the fact it is overmapping. And that's the problem here; determining whether a map is good should come after whether it follows the music.

Sometimes the song itself is flawed. It skips a note in the music or the beat itself is setup to make it seem like there is a sound there, but there really isn't. In these cases if you have a note there, it will feel natural, the beat becomes complete. Making this strictly a rule will potentially disallow necessary hitsound transitions, which will harm the potential for certain songs to be mapped.

Do not look at this from a utopian ideal that all song's are perfectly composed. It is often that certain rhythms in a song are assumed. Mappers should be able to map rhythm patterns as they were meant to be portrayed, not as how the song actually portrays them.

Here's a question I've been meaning to ask everyone's opinion on:

Is blank.mp3 rankable?

Sync wrote:

depends if it's musically tasteful or not

good overmapping won't feel like overmapping

I love this quote really, it's like what I've wanted to explain all the time

those wrote:

Here's a question I've been meaning to ask everyone's opinion on:

Is blank.mp3 rankable?

yes, I can rename my Magic Girl!! song to blank.mp3 and drag to the osu!

why would you have to refer to this all the time?

those wrote:

Nyquill wrote:

That means you admit not standing for the majority, the better of the community then?

I wouldn't go so far as to saying the better, but even if the majority stands for something I don't stand for, I can't do anything about it but to continually convince them.

I say the better because we're trying to advance the community for the playerbase. And if the playerbase does not have problems, why should any individual say differently? You're basically saying that we're not mapping for the players, but for yourself.

Way to contradict your ideal way of mapping.

I'm not saying you have your head wrong anywhere, but you should stop pushing things on others that the majority of people don't give a flying fuck about.

that is what i use sliderends for, TVO, as they give a hitsound but do not require you to take an active action, so they are the most lenient part in mapping/hitsounding availble, in my opinion, and should therefore be the most used for things like that

@those: for not "necessary" files, yes, that means spinnerspin, sliderslide and, in some cases, a certain soundsample's hitnormal, likr in cases where you use the taiko hitsounds and it does not feel good to have a donhit on every kat/big don etc; you get my point

• for essential files, no, i guess? there'd be no reason to use it?

those wrote:

Sync wrote:

good overmapping won't feel like overmapping

Doesn't change the fact it is overmapping. And that's the problem here; determining whether a map is good should come after whether it follows the music.

Quit being stubborn for your own sake. Good overmapping follows the music. Doesn't make sense? Sounds contradictory? Listen closely: overmapping should come from the music -- not random 1/4 triples or whatever you guys hate (I hate them too).

You're right, following the music is what makes a map good; however, "following" isn't a stagnant definition.

Seeing as you're a music man yourself, you should be able to see this. You don't because you're close-minded and refuse to open your eyes (ears in this case).

Jenny, misunderstanding the question. I meant a 3 minute blank sound file used as the song.

oh well... o.o
sort of a thing but i don't think we have to bother with highly improbable, not to say not-happening things - though i remember firce manipulating a taiko diff to make the player play the song or something, so in that case, that was weird but... acceptable? ( though i doubt i'd accept it if i was to rank it )

Strictly speaking. There is no rule that says the mp3 cannot be silent. So I would assume yes. If it's not written down, then it's rankable until it is officially determined as unrankable. If you view the ranking criteria as a contract. Anything that is not on the contract is not a mapper obligation.

blank.mp3 cant compare with a music with has no any beat.

In music,there are still guitar string sounds but not exactly blank,just no vocal/drum sound starts at there.
,we can still remix it or map our “feelings”
But in blank.mp3,totally blank.nothing

however,blank.mp3 is rankable though

Those,

The other day I mentioned that you still have to listen to the music.

I think you mistook what I meant.

I mean that if the patterns themselves (osu! being a unique music game, using freedom of movement as a core game mechanic) fit the music, then obviously people will like it, and therefore people will still have to listen to the music to get people to like their maps. If the beat itself doesn't hinder this effect, why are we changing it?

Again, you're not thinking for the playerbase, but for yourself.

those wrote:

Nyquill wrote:

That means you admit not standing for the majority, the better of the community then?

I wouldn't go so far as to saying the better, but even if the majority stands for something I don't stand for, I can't do anything about it but to continually convince them.

Except being a BAT, you actually have the power to force people to stand for what you stand for (if they want their map ranked anyway).
If possible, could you refer to specific maps you find overmapped? I'm just curious as to how much my own opinion differs here (being a guy who doesn't mind overmapping as long as it plays well and all.)

This overmapping business is something that should be looked upon as a whole. Defining overmapping is arguably subjective (at least, defining bad overmapping).
In the same way map settings like SV aren't fixed 100%, this shouldn't be any different. Should any issues arise they will just come naturally in the modding process.

Good maps come in different forms, and overmapping is one of them.

CXu wrote:

Except being a BAT, you actually have the power to force people to stand for what you stand for (if they want their map ranked anyway).

We actually do not have that kind of power ;3

An example that comes right to mind is http://osu.ppy.sh/s/51245, if you want one.

Which diff? Rin or 0108 (since you didn't link a specific diff )

And what I meant by that was that even if a mapper has a different opinion on overmapping, they are forced to change their stance (for that particular map) if they ever want to see it ranked. Of course, they can just decide to "nope", but most people do want their maps to be ranked.

nold_1702 wrote:

Also theres different mapping style
1.Seeing mapping as a remix of a song
2.Mapping what exact the song
3.Mapping the own feeling of themselves

If the rule ran,1 and 3 mapping styles would be disappear.
Thats mean no more 0108 lks sandpig whoever.
98%of ranked maps will break that rule.

Map to fit the song. Always. Mapping is not composing--it is creating an experience based on the music. The first and third "styles" are flat-out wrong if the mapper's only considering it like that. Imposing "creativity" where it doesn't fit tends to end up being garbage. This is what mm meant about maps not being art projects. osu! is a game and one's creativity shouldn't detract from the gameplay/what it's supposed to follow.

This falls under my only personal absolute: "Don't be stupid." The most simple solution is not to overmap at all. If you feel too restricted by the music, then drop it and use a different song or learn to map within more constraints.

DEEDIT: I'd also like to point out the other definition of overmapping: Following too much of the music at once. I believe that this could be addressed as a guideline, but really now. If the entire map is so dense that it obliterates any sense of pacing and variance, then something is very wrong. What I mean is, for example, a dramatic and sustained vocal line in a chorus being ignored entirely, with the section following the backline all the way through. That and, say, making a cluttered mess out of a relaxed section, just because there happens to be some faint percussion in the background that's playing intricate, delicate patterns.

Mapping itself is quite a musical thing, so learning what's more important to emphasise can have a tremendous effect on the overall quality of the map. As such, I feel that overmapping should be kept tasteful with this in mind. Sandpig's 'Nuclear Fusion' uses overmapping effectively, because it's generally used to emphasise specific points of the music in a consistent manner.

Both have elements, CXu P:

Songs are not perfect.

Some songs have repeating 1/2th 3 note patterns, but they sometimes miss a sound. So the pattern looks like 1,2,3--1,2,3---2,3--1,2,3 The third pattern will start on a red tick. Going from white to the red tick after the next white tick can be awkward. Also you have to keep in mind the objective to keeping easy difficulties simple. I do not think we should be attacking the freedom to make easier difficulties easier. That will be a counterproductive aspect to this "rule" if we don't exclude simpler difficulties from this interpretation.

This is hardly debatable.

Charles knows enough about flow to know that 3/4th is awkward. Sometimes it's necessary to ignore the sounds that appear on blue ticks in favor for maintaining a 1/1 beat. If overmapping is 100% bad, then a 3/4th song should have an easy mapped in 3/4th. Would you recommend this? I know sometimes maps can be oversimplified and that can be a problem, but it shouldn't be entirely banned, because it forces mappers to map things in an unfavorable way or even worse cause them to consider an Easy difficulty as hopeless and just stick with a Normal.

I think that the definition shouldn't be taken lightly. It must acknowledge good overmapping compared to bad overmapping. I disagree that creating triples that aren't present in music is always bad and uncalled for. I have seen enough songs that have a triple in one measure, and not have a triple in a very similar measure a bit later in the song. It doesn't make sense to suddenly not map a triple because the music just doesn't include one. It makes playing less predictable and throws off pattern construction and design.

Do not easily overlook this issue. I agree that subjectivity can be handled suitably by XATs. Normal modders cannot easily enforce such rules, and unless they have some indication on how to enforce them they are unlikely to find these issues before the maps make it to the MATs. Also those who will want to inform mappers, or the mappers who want to make maps that follow the rules will not have enough information to decide the proper course of action in a map. A subjective rule is not something that should be carelessly instated without explanation. Mappers will view these rules and try to form their maps around them. With that being said, it is important that there be enough detail in the rule that any mapper wishing to follow it will be able to. A lack of understanding will create confusion. Rules should not be a catalyst for confusion.

Scenario that i do not want to happen

Modder: you should map it this way. Your current technique is hard to read.
Mapper: No. That would violate the Overmapping rule. I don't want to break the rules.
Modder: No. There are exceptions. The rule isn't described all that well. It is better to do it this way.
Mapper: I'll keep it the way it is for now.

(Depending on the modder, it might not even get to the response part of the conversation. It will end with the mapper confused about the proper way of doing something, until the next qualified modder says the same thing.)

Please phrase it in a way that can be followed by people other than BATs.

Simplifying rhythms to fit easy and, occasionally, normal as well, is something that mm does and advocates. "Overmapping" in the sense of ignoring awkward parts is completely fine if it feels steady and makes sense with the music. However, offbeats can still be accented by ending sliders on them, or even using circles on their own if the music makes such a thing intuitive.

From what I've gathered, most people are looking at overmapping in the additive sense, i.e. adding complications which don't exist in the music. It should be straightforward enough to express the overmapping rule, while also expressing that patterns may need to be simplified.

D33d wrote:

nold_1702 wrote:

Also theres different mapping style
1.Seeing mapping as a remix of a song
2.Mapping what exact the song
3.Mapping the own feeling of themselves

Map to fit the song. Always. Mapping is not composing--it is creating an experience based on the music. The first and third "styles" are flat-out wrong if the mapper's only considering it like that. Imposing "creativity" where it doesn't fit tends to end up being garbage. This is what mm meant about maps not being art projects. osu! is a game and one's creativity shouldn't detract from the gameplay/what it's supposed to follow.

This falls under my only personal absolute: "Don't be stupid." The most simple solution is not to overmap at all. If you feel too restricted by the music, then drop it and use a different song or learn to map within more constraints.

Nope. Map to fit the song does not imply that mapping in terms of the first and third ways are not correct. The 'creating experience' stuff is already a remixing process --- feel the message brought by the song and enforce it in your map. The style itself is not necessarily lead to overmapping and the only problem you should ask yourself when in doubt if it's overmapped is 'are your arrangement enforcing the message brought by the song?' If yes then hv a go, otherwise think about other possibilities.

oh I never know we have this kind of power, thanks for reminding ;3
which thread mentioned this btw?

wmfchris wrote:

D33d wrote:

Map to fit the song. Always. Mapping is not composing--it is creating an experience based on the music. The first and third "styles" are flat-out wrong if the mapper's only considering it like that. Imposing "creativity" where it doesn't fit tends to end up being garbage. This is what mm meant about maps not being art projects. osu! is a game and one's creativity shouldn't detract from the gameplay/what it's supposed to follow.

This falls under my only personal absolute: "Don't be stupid." The most simple solution is not to overmap at all. If you feel too restricted by the music, then drop it and use a different song or learn to map within more constraints.

Nope. Map to fit the song does not imply that mapping in terms of the first and third ways are not correct. The 'creating experience' stuff is already a remixing process --- feel the message brought by the song and enforce it in your map. The style itself is not necessarily lead to overmapping and the only problem you should ask yourself when in doubt if it's overmapped is 'are your arrangement enforcing the message brought by the song?' If yes then hv a go, otherwise think about other possibilities.

What I mean is that, the mapping shouldn't take liberties and add something just because it sounded cool in the mapper's head. Expressing one's interpretation of the music is fine, as long as it actually fits the music and is executed with the music in mind. However, doing so with complete disregard of the feel of the music... It's kind of common sense. This shouldn't need to be debated too heavily.

Seriously, all that I'm trying to say is, "Be tasteful when adding to the music, otherwise don't add anything at all."

*grabs popcorn* Read through the thread, but I won't have the time to write up a "real" response until Tuesday. The discussion so far is very... interesting... though.

*grabs popcorn* how did you discuss this seriously on april 1st..

really interesting 0,0

In regards to easier difficulties, following strong and key musical points is important. It doesn't matter if the rhythm is in 1/3 or 3/4, represent it correctly. Of course it will prove a challenge to the player, but that's just the nature of the song. Don't flat out ignore a prominent vocal 3/4 if you were consistent up until it appeared, because it will very much confuse people. Breaking consistency to support simple patterning actually backfires in some (if not, all) cases. You need to think about how the player will interpret the song. The dominant layer in the music is the thing you need to take note of. It may prove a problem if the song has multiple layers that lattice back and forth. It takes true skill from a mapper to be able to properly represent this through his/her mapping: to these players, sub-layers or other miscellaneous background sounds will usually go unnoticed. Referring back to Aqo's post and his concern with the Sweet Rain osu!mania map, the synth in the background catches the player off-guard because it's not as prominent as the vocals are in that section. That is a case of how choosing a different instrument to represent the song is a poor decision. Alternatively, vocals would've been a better choice. Sticking to the dominant sounds in a selection of music is actually much easier, no matter the presented rhythm, if used correctly, consistently and with conviction. Take rock/metal music for example. Many of the vocals start on red ticks (or offbeats) before downbeats. Sliders that pass through these have a tendency to prioritize strong vocal accents as opposed to drum beats (dully noting that drum beats are sometimes weak on these downbeats, so this option is better).

I have to agree with both TheVileOne and D33d on their contributions to this discussion. For the former, he had mentioned the clarity of this declaration. We need a better way of instating this rule/guideline (honestly this can't be turned into a rule; I agree with previous arguments) so that users can have some ability and say in modding other user's maps. Leaving the opinions in the hands of the XATs will add more stress to the seemingly overfilled load of their work. Give users something to follow so that they can help enforce these rules, too. This is sort of a reminder of how there's always this struggle between user/user modding since some users add value to XAT mods or undermine the modding abilities of another because they lack a title. They refuse to listen, and then make the grave mistake of actually passing over a potentially good mod. Users have the same right and reason to mod and be able to point out things, just XATs have more authority in enforcing their own judgment, etc etc but that's really far off-topic.

With what D33d has been saying, maps need to fit the song. To create a masterpiece, a map needs to embody both: a map that respects the music and one that, through aesthetics, captures the idea of what the song is intending. The musical part of mapping is purely technical, while aesthetics is purely inspirational. You can't be on one side of the spectrum to create a truly recognizable map, especially with a community so polarized. The only people who would enjoy your maps are those on the same side. What musically inclined people in this discussion fail to see is that sometimes following the strict rhythm of a song can make a map more confusing than it needs to be. Constantly changing rhythms isn't totally enjoyable unless the first layer of a song is suggesting it. This goes back to lolcubes' variance argument and someone else's (I think a few people mentioned this but I can't pinpoint who brought this up) 'mapping to all instruments at one given time' argument. If a map's drum beat only constitutes of a consistent 1/2 rhythm, how fun would that be? Of course this is an extreme example, but my point is it lacks variety. Dynamics are completely lost and the impression of the map falls apart. Sometimes you need to take a step back and think about how to best represent the song. A map that represents every single instrument all at once ends up as a giant clusterfuck of confusion. Everything being equal in terms of which is stronger in sound is disregarded and makes the map messy. Now, what aesthetically inclined people in this discussion fail to see is that creativity can be expanded upon without sacrificing all of its properties in order to keep the map playable. It's not wrong to be creative in your ways; that's what sets apart one mapper from another. There are things that these people need to realize, though. A map made for its sheer art lacks the musical qualities that make the map for the song. As many people have been saying, you might as well "map without an mp3". It's harsh, but it's true. While art cannot merely be defined because its context varies by person, it has some limitations, that of which is gameplay. Mappers are free to create what they wish, but they are constrained the boundaries of what the song is allowing. Be reasonable with what you are creating. If your aesthetic creations do not embody the rhythm which is given by the song, then the art represents nothing. Adding rhythms that compliment the song in its own way is a form of art some people choose to use. As Sync had mentioned, good mapping won't feel like overmapping. If it goes unnoticed (as backed up by RLC and Nyquill), then there's obviously nothing wrong with it and is just a gimmick that helps convey the impression of the map from the mapper to player better. I may be overestimating the understanding and reasoning of the majority of the community around the seemingly stigmatized "overmapping" debate, however if used correctly, it can actually bring out the best in a song.

In the end, there needs to be a balance of both. Gameplay takes the absolute highest of priority because it's a combination of both divided aspects. Art and music can be one, it's just many at a time fail to accept one and blindly side with the other. Likewise, it is possible to create maps that cater to both parties: a map that clearly adheres to the music's set rhythm with appropriate settings and use of notes/sliders while exhibiting a certain feel or impression. Both are tools that must be used to make a map enjoyable, no? This can be done with no overmapping, or with a small addition that adds to the dynamic of the song. People are afraid of losing their ability to map freely and having their creativity limited, thinking that differences in a map will become less and less apparent. There's so many ways to make yourself stand out as a mapper, and it's through how you represent the combination of both. If people understand their own disposition and the situation more, it's not hard to see that it is possible to have both hand in hand.

So why can't we have both? Both sides of the spectrum just need to be willing to sacrifice a bit of their pride in order to accommodate the other. Musicality can be sacrificed to add dynamic and variance, while aesthetics can be sacrificed for playability and comfort. A map that incorporates both is definitely commendable.

Also just a clear up for some people since I see some misunderstandings, a lot of non-native speakers (namely, those from the Asian regions) use the term "funny" when they mean "fun".

Longest post 2013!

Xakyrie wrote:

What musically inclined people in this discussion fail to see is that sometimes following the strict rhythm of a song can make a map more confusing than it needs to be. Constantly changing rhythms isn't totally enjoyable unless the first layer of a song is suggesting it.

As a musician, part of what I do when mapping is identifying when different lines flow into each other logically. The bigger problem that plagues certain maps is that too much is followed at once--it's about providing variance by switching between different lines and emphasising notable parts of the music, without compromising the overall feel of a section. To me, it seems that the biggest offenders are usually those who think about mapping in a more technical way, worrying about how many rhythms are being filled instead of how impactful the patterns are.

If anything, it's usually the musically-inclined who can pick apart the music and exploit many different rhythms in consistent ways--I suppose that they're also less likely to resort to overmapping because of this, as they know what works that's already in the music. Additionally, musical people would probably have a better idea of what to "overmap" when simplifying patterns. Sometimes, simplification works out better if it feels steady enough.

Ultimately, the most assured way to gauge how fittingness of overmapping is simply to play the map.

irritatingly funny how people think your map is overmapped yet you're only making notes follow sounds without having to force sliders there >.>
Taiko btw, just saying my content \o

D33d wrote:

As a musician, part of what I do when mapping is identifying when different lines flow into each other logically. The bigger problem that plagues certain maps is that too much is followed at once--it's about providing variance by switching between different lines and emphasising notable parts of the music, without compromising the overall feel of a section. To me, it seems that the biggest offenders are usually those who think about mapping in a more technical way, worrying about how many rhythms are being filled instead of how impactful the patterns are.

If anything, it's usually the musically-inclined who can pick apart the music and exploit many different rhythms in consistent ways--I suppose that they're also less likely to resort to overmapping because of this, as they know what works that's already in the music. Additionally, musical people would probably have a better idea of what to "overmap" when simplifying patterns. Sometimes, simplification works out better if it feels steady enough.

Ultimately, the most assured way to gauge how fittingness of overmapping is simply to play the map.

I believe I mentioned this in my post. Regardless, I agree. When it comes to musically representing a song, it's about choosing the appropriate instruments to emphasize. This helps the player understand the map with the use of consistency and the appropriate transition techniques (switching between different instruments). Though don't forget the musical aspect of mapping is more technical than anything (this excludes analytical mappers who actually interpret slider direction, flow, techniques, etc). As long as mappers can distinguish how to pick and choose between dominant and sub-dominant instruments/layers, the creativity awaits.

In any case, those who are more artistically inclined need to learn a bit of the ways of musically inclined people. Learn from how they pick apart maps. Vice versa to learn from each other and all mutually benefit. Fittingness can really only be judged on a person by person basis, meaning to judge the map one must play it as you said. The judgment should be valued no matter what title the user has, however. Of course, XATs have the final ruling as they may, and I say this with delicate care, know more than regular users. I just hope that with this amendment, more people open up to equal user's ideas, judgment and opinions.

those wrote:

Both have elements, CXu P:

I'm kinda curious, for the music, my map is more like undermapped (I'm very sure with this! For example, 00:18:741 (1,2) - before you call this random 1/4,m you'd better know i could spam 1/4 there and they fit the music perfectly). Also though i don't like to put such words.... if you don't like, try map a better one.



People, aka, well, players.

Maybe apply this rule to all currently ranked and approved maps and see which one you would have to unrank because of this rule.

I imagine there'd be a lot fan favourite maps gone now.

Maybe you should reconsider.

Guys guys let us remember here what Charles wanted in the first place.

Charles wants what the definitive meaning is of overmapping to be more lenient. He is not, per se, trying to say that overmapping is bad yada yada, but rather trying to get both sides of the argument to come to terms. This is because unranking of maps recently for reasons outside of ranking criteria has occured really frequently.

We're not here to try to argue with each other about mapping ideals.

...

But still

NatsumeRin wrote:

People, aka, well, players.