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Top 25 Players of 2012 (osu! Standard) Discussion Thread

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Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

Zarerion wrote:

Niko is definitely #2 for me. He can stream better than WW ever could and can get his scores without retrying hundreds of times. He is fast and accurate, if he still had a tablet, I believe he would have the potential to surpass Cookiezi, which neither WW nor rrtyui could do imo.
??

Niko has been back to playing on tablet for quite a while now, and he doesn't do any better with neither peripheral. Skill at jumps boils down to reading speed, not to what device you use. People should stop assuming mouse takes more skill because it simply doesn't.

also,
- Hakurei Reimu- anybody? Why don't I see this name mentioned anywhere, this player is insanely good at everything.
Last edited by Aqo , edited 1 time in total.
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare

Aqo wrote:

Zarerion wrote:

Niko is definitely #2 for me. He can stream better than WW ever could and can get his scores without retrying hundreds of times. He is fast and accurate, if he still had a tablet, I believe he would have the potential to surpass Cookiezi, which neither WW nor rrtyui could do imo.
??

Niko has been back to playing on tablet for quite a while now, and he doesn't do any better with neither peripheral. Skill at jumps boils down to reading speed, not to what you use.
he's playing mouse again after Poland lost in owc, he only borrowed the tablet for the tournament
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

Zarerion wrote:

he's playing mouse again after Poland lost in owc, he only borrowed the tablet for the tournament
so those tablet plays on his youtube from 4 days ago are what
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare
Maybe these are old videos he just didn't upload before.
And maybe I'm talking bullshit, but that's what he told me when I asked him a few days ago
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
You are talking bullshit.
KRZY
Former osu! Champion: #3
4,845 posts
Joined May 2009
KRZY
This thread is so offensive!

I think most of you are underrating Clementine
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
clementine is #5 on my list
what?
KRZY
Former osu! Champion: #3
4,845 posts
Joined May 2009
KRZY
That's why I said 'most' lol
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
It is full of players who don't actually like voting Clementine because of all his past actions. I personally won't ever trust him, same with Tom or any legendary cheater. If he is legit then he is an amazing player, prolly #5, but I don't think he is.
KRZY
Former osu! Champion: #3
4,845 posts
Joined May 2009
KRZY
Also, I personally think we're past the period where we can give 'subjective superlativity' (is this even right) to players. For example:
  1. Cookiezi and White Wolf are not comparable (by not comparable I mean you can't say one is better than the other). Cookiezi is a complete player, and surpasses White Wolf in a number of departments, but when it comes to dirty maps, White Wolf has the edge.
  2. Niko, Rucker, and Clementine are not comparable. The three players have similar base skills, but different specialties: Niko does DoubleTimes, Rucker doesn't miss targets, and Clementine...does weird shit.
  3. rrtyui, SnowWhite, thelewa, and Remilia-Scarlet are all somewhat in their own group. rrtyui is like Cookiezi in 2011, SnowWhite has class, and thelewa is probably the most accurate player (with mods; without mods, mugio3 would put up a great fight) of all time, and Remilia-Scarlet the fastest.
Now, if someone asked me to rank all the players I've mentioned, I'd just give up.

EDIT: deleted part of post on request
Last edited by KRZY , edited 1 time in total.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
About Cookiezi and WW, to be honest you linked two scores I think Cookiezi can easily achieve nowadays. Rest of what you say is right, it's not easy (maybe not possible) to do a proper ranking aside.

Edit: Removed most of the post.
Zexous
713 posts
Joined July 2012
Zexous

Silynn wrote:

I think some who deserve top 25 will end up being left out due to the vote limitation

Why is it capped at 15?
I kind of agree with this, perhaps Kanye could make #1 worth 25 points (down to a #15 vote being worth 10?).

those wrote:

I'm seeing too few val0108 votes
He didn't do much 2012, really

Aqo wrote:

Zarerion wrote:

Niko is definitely #2 for me. He can stream better than WW ever could and can get his scores without retrying hundreds of times. He is fast and accurate, if he still had a tablet, I believe he would have the potential to surpass Cookiezi, which neither WW nor rrtyui could do imo.
??

Niko has been back to playing on tablet for quite a while now, and he doesn't do any better with neither peripheral. Skill at jumps boils down to reading speed, not to what device you use. People should stop assuming mouse takes more skill because it simply doesn't.

also,
- Hakurei Reimu- anybody? Why don't I see this name mentioned anywhere, this player is insanely good at everything.
Skill at jumps boils down to reading speed, sure (sidenote: wow Aqo that is such a thing you would say), but the general consensus (I personally agree with this) is that it's much easier to acquire/be consistent with that skill on a tablet (absolute tracking vs. relative tracking debate). But no one reply to this, I'll abide per Silynn's appropriate request to not turn this into a mouse vs. tablet discussion, just had to put my opinion out there at least once.

Also - Hakurei Reimu- is really only good at DT, refute me with evidence if you think I'm wrong.

Tanzklaue wrote:

Purple wrote:

TTTL has some unique DT scores, so you could -maybe- argue that hes better than one of them, but it'd be pretty hard.
TTTL doesn't have much else though, he is probably top 15, but not top 5.
TTTL hasn't played nearly enough in 2012 to be considered, I think that's why. He definitely is an amazing player, though.

those wrote:

Wishy wrote:

If you are pro mouse player and get FC on Airman, then tablet player comes and gets FC too. Who's got the best score? None, they are both as good, the mouse player shouldn't be considered better just because he is mouse.
If you get 100% on a math test without a calculator and your friend gets 100% on the same math test with a calculator, who is more skilled?
Dude those I love you more every day.
pls come on #osu moar so we can do puns w/ your name kthx

Wishy wrote:

This is not about opinions it's about people not understanding what being a top player means. And it's not that I THINK A TOP PLAYER IS THIS, a top player is an elite player whose one of the best (overall), that's it, doesn't matter if you think XXX should be considered a top player because OMG he can do hard stuff on mouse (assuming he is not even close to top players).
The problem is that, what you've been saying this whole thread, that how a player achieves a score has nothing to do with how they should be considered relative to others who achieve the score a different way...that is 100% your opinion, as well.

-GN wrote:

Just a question: does the order of the lists count? If so, what counting system are you guys using?

Also a minor suggestion, too - what about adding a tiny description, no more than 2-3 words telling the viewers what exactly makes the currently shown user a candidate for this list? Not every user around knows who the people on the list is. I could see this being hard to come up with, though.

Thanks.
After giving this some thought, I think I might do this using YouTube's toggleable annotation system. Some people would prefer not to have these descriptions, either because they already know of each players' strengths, or perhaps because they don't care, or maybe even because the onscreen obtrusion may just be annoying. This is all up to Kanye's approval, of course.

EDIT: However, YouTube's annotations are kind of...ugly. So hmm.

wow shit that was a really long post
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Results are objective, not opinions.
JappyBabes
666 posts
Joined February 2011
JappyBabes

Wishy wrote:

Results are objective, not opinions.
>says results are objective and shouldn't have anything to do with opinion
>refuses to vote for clementine because he doesn't like or trust him
contradictions wat?
Kanye West
2,222 posts
Joined July 2011
Topic Starter
Kanye West

KRZY wrote:

Also, I personally think we're past the period where we can give 'subjective superlativity' (is this even right) to players. For example:
  1. Cookiezi and White Wolf are not comparable (by not comparable I mean you can't say one is better than the other). Cookiezi is a complete player, and surpasses White Wolf in a number of departments, but when it comes to dirty maps, White Wolf has the edge.
  2. Niko, Rucker, and Clementine are not comparable. The three players have similar base skills, but different specialties: Niko does DoubleTimes, Rucker doesn't miss targets, and Clementine...does weird shit.
  3. rrtyui, SnowWhite, thelewa, and Remilia-Scarlet are all somewhat in their own group. rrtyui is like Cookiezi in 2011, SnowWhite has class, and thelewa is probably the most accurate player (with mods; without mods, mugio3 would put up a great fight) of all time, and Remilia-Scarlet the fastest.
Now, if someone asked me to rank all the players I've mentioned, I'd just give up.

EDIT: deleted part of post on request
I understand your concerns, subjective superlativity definitely isn't the best way to rank players, and especially not with open public polls. But I guess the underlying purpose of the video isn't to definitively say "player A is better than player B" but rather just show all osu! players, both new and old, some amazing plays by amazing players that happened in 2012. The ranking is just to make things more interesting and give some overall perspective and closure to the year by gauging how the community thought players performed relative to each other. It wouldn't really be fun if we just had random pro player replays in no specific order in a video. I remember watching the best players of 2010 video when I first joined, and rather than thinking, "I know who is better than who", I thought, "these are some amazing replays and I hope I can reach this level." And yes, with a top 25, some deserving players are going to be left out, but that's just how life works.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

Zexous wrote:

Also - Hakurei Reimu- is really only good at DT, refute me with evidence if you think I'm wrong.
Being good at DT means being good at everything. DT is the hardest mod by far, which basically makes /everything/ harder.
I asked Reimu Hakurei to playtest some maps for me and they were a complete breeze for him nomod, he instantly added HR afterwards and did well with it too. He even tried to DT a 230bpm map once D: (which didn't go well but lol)
It's just the kind of player who prefers to play Sacrifice Death and not ranked maps so you don't see a lot of ranked scores from him, but he's in fact very good and solid.
ethox
osu! Alumni
357 posts
Joined August 2010
ethox
edit: For the sake of clarity let's just say I am the voice of the voters who are silent, yet vote different.

Wishy wrote:

Results are objective, not opinions.

Wishy wrote:

you linked two scores I think Cookiezi can easily achieve nowadays.
'the fuck you saying, dude? Sorry to say but you really dropped the ball there and broke the camels back. You really seem adamant about your own votes since you are ready to argue them to death if you have to. If you really want concrete results, why not simply list each and every map the top 30 of your best players have a score on, crosscheck them and calculate the average rank and BAM! There you have at least your so desired top 15 IN PRISTINE FORM, WHICH CAN NOT BE ARGUED ABOUT.

I really feel this really sums up the poll and this thread:

Kanye West wrote:

that's just how life works.
Next time, just vote for a jury to come to a consensus on the best ten or 15 players and you can all hold hands in a circle and sing... whatever you feel like singing.

I mean no disrespect against anybody but damn you guys are being idiotic over here.

http://puu.sh/1NGwO
Last edited by ethox , edited 2 times in total.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Only thing that's unique to HR are some hard CS and very high OD, so you can actually be not that good on HR but yet very good at DT.

Ethox what the fuck are you talking about. I think (opinion) Cookiezi can beat both those scores since he actually didn't try (White Wolf beating a very old score means, meaning you don't know who's better).

Comparing a 2011 score vs a 2012 score is pointless. Results are what matter, and Cookiezi has no 2012 score there. ;)

Try to connect those two sentences and get to a conclusion please. Tip: this is about best 2012.

Please don't come back to this thread since you have no idea what you are talking about.
Last edited by Wishy , edited 7 times in total.
KRZY
Former osu! Champion: #3
4,845 posts
Joined May 2009
KRZY

Kanye West wrote:

I understand your concerns, subjective superlativity definitely isn't the best way to rank players, and especially not with open public polls. But I guess the underlying purpose of the video isn't to definitively say "player A is better than player B" but rather just show all osu! players, both new and old, some amazing plays by amazing players that happened in 2012. The ranking is just to make things more interesting and give some overall perspective and closure to the year by gauging how the community thought players performed relative to each other. It wouldn't really be fun if we just had random pro player replays in no specific order in a video. I remember watching the best players of 2010 video when I first joined, and rather than thinking, "I know who is better than who", I thought, "these are some amazing replays and I hope I can reach this level." And yes, with a top 25, some deserving players are going to be left out, but that's just how life works.
Yeah this is probably right. Whatever comes out will not be and should not be taken as objective.
Zexous
713 posts
Joined July 2012
Zexous

Aqo wrote:

Being good at DT means being good at everything. DT is the hardest mod by far, which basically makes /everything/ harder.
I asked Reimu Hakurei to playtest some maps for me and they were a complete breeze for him nomod, he instantly added HR afterwards and did well with it too. He even tried to DT a 230bpm map once D: (which didn't go well but lol)
It's just the kind of player who prefers to play Sacrifice Death and not ranked maps so you don't see a lot of ranked scores from him, but he's in fact very good and solid.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Did you forget about *cough* the other 3 skill mods that exist in this game (and might as well mention EZ too)?
The statement "Being good at DT means being good at everything" is probably THE MOST bigoted statement I have ever seen in this community EVER. Saying DT is the hardest mod is also rather biased, but at least it has some basis, but saying someone whose strength is DT and only DT is somehow a Cookiezi-level jack-of-all-trades is downright conceited and ignorant.
Soly
343 posts
Joined June 2011
Soly
1. Cookiezi
2. White Wolf

White wolf takes the #2 spot by a fucking galaxy...
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny

Soly wrote:

1. Cookiezi
2. White Wolf

White wolf takes the #2 spot by a fucking galaxy...
nop
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy

Zexous wrote:

Aqo wrote:

Being good at DT means being good at everything. DT is the hardest mod by far, which basically makes /everything/ harder.
I asked Reimu Hakurei to playtest some maps for me and they were a complete breeze for him nomod, he instantly added HR afterwards and did well with it too. He even tried to DT a 230bpm map once D: (which didn't go well but lol)
It's just the kind of player who prefers to play Sacrifice Death and not ranked maps so you don't see a lot of ranked scores from him, but he's in fact very good and solid.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Did you forget about *cough* the other 3 skill mods that exist in this game (and might as well mention EZ too)?
The statement "Being good at DT means being good at everything" is probably THE MOST bigoted statement I have ever seen in this community EVER. Saying DT is the hardest mod is also rather biased, but at least it has some basis, but saying someone whose strength is DT and only DT is somehow a Cookiezi-level jack-of-all-trades is downright conceited and ignorant.
It is true that being able ot play all types of DT means all you might be lacking is some aim while playing high CS (some DTs are harder than OD 10).
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny
there are so many aspects of skill which makes it so hard to determine and rank top players
Bweh
486 posts
Joined September 2012
Bweh

KRZY wrote:

Also, I personally think we're past the period where we can give 'subjective superlativity' (is this even right) to players.
This post

This avatar

It's strangely fitting
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
I think a lot of people are getting sidetracked here. I believe this should be a top 25, not who is better than whom (not directly at least). I would say that there are maybe 6 or 7 players that will always fit this criteria, we all know who they are, rest are to be voted upon and aren't even discussed here cause everyone seems too busy comparing a player X to Cookiezi.
So why doesn't everyone just calm down a bit and wait for the results? It's not like arguing who is better here will have (enough of) an impact to change how the community votes.
Vish024
2,640 posts
Joined December 2010
Vish024

ethox wrote:

Next time, just vote for a jury to come to a consensus on the best ten or 15 players and you can all hold hands in a circle and sing... whatever you feel like singing.

I mean no disrespect against anybody but damn you guys are being idiotic over here.

http://puu.sh/1NGwO
Sir ethox you deserve a knighthood for this.
Zexous
713 posts
Joined July 2012
Zexous
Dude ethox is the coolest cat ever
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny

LaVolpe024 wrote:

ethox wrote:

Next time, just vote for a jury to come to a consensus on the best ten or 15 players and you can all hold hands in a circle and sing... whatever you feel like singing.

I mean no disrespect against anybody but damn you guys are being idiotic over here.

http://puu.sh/1NGwO
Sir ethox you deserve a knighthood for this.
people would still complain about it

calling somebody an idiot for standing by their opinion is unjust and completely irrelevant to the topic
JAKACHAN
684 posts
Joined March 2011
JAKACHAN
Thought I may as well post just state...

Someone voted Tom

Alright, I'm out of here again!
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

Zexous wrote:

Did you forget about *cough* the other 3 skill mods that exist in this game (and might as well mention EZ too)?
The statement "Being good at DT means being good at everything" is probably THE MOST bigoted statement I have ever seen in this community EVER. Saying DT is the hardest mod is also rather biased, but at least it has some basis, but saying someone whose strength is DT and only DT is somehow a Cookiezi-level jack-of-all-trades is downright conceited and ignorant.
facepalm'd so hard.

Please start playing top diffs of actually-challenging maps and then come back and rewrite what you wrote.

A player who is able to >95% an OD8 150bpm map with DT will have absolutely no trouble to HRHD that map for >95% as well as nearly any other map up to 200~220bpm. Sure, DTs on easy maps are just about as easy as nomod plays while HR on those maps might pose more challenge due to OD, but DTs that are actually hard DTs are objectively harder than all other aspects on the game in every possible way - reading, speed, accuracy, EVERYTHING.

If you want to bring HD up, -Hakurei Reimu- has >99% scores on >170bpm DTHD plays on maps that are not even half-full top50 DTs.
You think AIDIA is impressive? http://osu.ppy.sh/b/168652

The amount of cluelessness in the voting is just sad, really.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa
I love how you told him to start playing the hardest difficulties

How about YOU start playing (and ranking with) mods other than DT? Maybe then you wouldn't be so adamant about your point of view...

A person who mostly observes knows less than the people who mostly experience things themselves. It's especially true in a game like osu!, where countless things unknown to the spectator happen in the mind of the player.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

thelewa wrote:

How about YOU start playing (and ranking with) mods other than DT? Maybe then you wouldn't be so adamant about your point of view...
I've been playing a ton of HR lately, actually, as well as HD. I also try all the top diffs per mapset and the [Hard] diff too, not just the most-objects-insane, so I know the difficulty involved in DTing certain hards and the difficulty of getting acc on many of them due to high bpm complex timestamps.

I also spectate a ton, and while most players are voting based on rumors they've heard, I've actually seen nearly every single one of the candidates for voting doing random plays for at least several hours on both ranked and unranked maps.

So, lewa, don't think I'm saying anything based on assumptions or guessing. You're right that the point of view of a viewer is different from the point of view of an active player, but I *do* play this game on all mods and not just top diffs or x level diffs with x mod, and I spectate *a lot*.

However many players only play a specific setting of maps and then say stupid things like "DT isn't hard". Yeah, DT on 140bpm [Hard] is way easier than HR on it, but DTHD on 170bpm [Insane] is harder than nearly every HR available in this game. You're way more experienced in playing this game so pleeease correct me if I'm wrong, show me a <210bpm HR that is harder than a >170bpm DT insane to both FC and get acc on.

...not to mention that all of those "only good at DT" players have very impressive HR scores on >190bpm maps that are absolutely impossible to DT.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa
Pick any of Lesjuh's Dragonforce maps. Put on HD+HR. Do I need to explain further why your generalization based on bpm sucks?

edit: I love the subtle jokes people add to their top lists

peppy es #4
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

thelewa wrote:

Pick any of Lesjuh's Dragonforce maps. Put on HD+HR. Do I need to explain further why your generalization based on bpm sucks?
No you actually gave a very good example, stream spacing is a difficulty in itself which is different from snapping speed and HR (and HD) make stream spacing much harder, so on maps where part of the difficulty is stream spacing HR is legitimately "extra hard" in a way that DT doesn't make maps extra hard, by making the stream spacing a whole lot harder to play.
So; this is one corner case. Player ability at tracing streams. Got any more? Pretty sure this is the only one.
You could go and say that players who are only good at DT are bad at aiming on streams, which might be the case for some. Still not enough to say they're much worse as a whole in the general game, since not this entire game is just spaced streams. (and, generally speaking, DT players are often actually pretty good at stream spacing too.)

Dragonforce maps also have the stamina aspect, but you can't really say DT is not stamina-demanding. If anything that's the defining aspect of playing this mod a lot.
JappyBabes
666 posts
Joined February 2011
JappyBabes

Aqo wrote:

If you want to bring HD up, -Hakurei Reimu- has >99% scores on >170bpm DTHD plays on maps that are not even half-full top50 DTs.
You think AIDIA is impressive? http://osu.ppy.sh/b/168652

The amount of cluelessness in the voting is just sad, really.
speaking as someone who is friends w/ both hakurei and aidia and specs them often, aidia is still more impressive. and yes it's sad seeing certain farmers being voted in.
Defacer
131 posts
Joined October 2011
Defacer

Aqo wrote:

thelewa wrote:

Pick any of Lesjuh's Dragonforce maps. Put on HD+HR. Do I need to explain further why your generalization based on bpm sucks?
No you actually gave a very good example, stream spacing is a difficulty in itself which is different from snapping speed and HR (and HD) make stream spacing much harder, so on maps where part of the difficulty is stream spacing HR is legitimately "extra hard" in a way that DT doesn't make maps extra hard, by making the stream spacing a whole lot harder to play.
So; this is one corner case. Player ability at tracing streams. Got any more? Pretty sure this is the only one.
You could go and say that players who are only good at DT are bad at aiming on streams, which might be the case for some. Still not enough to say they're much worse as a whole in the general game, since not this entire game is just spaced streams. (and, generally speaking, DT players are often actually pretty good at stream spacing too.)

Dragonforce maps also have the stamina aspect, but you can't really say DT is not stamina-demanding. If anything that's the defining aspect of playing this mod a lot.
Dragonforce maps are almost painfully easy if it wasn't for the really high AR !!! It is one of those own osu! personal mysteries of mine = why noone played them with hardrock?I myself suck at hardrock so I just manually change the ar to 9/10 and get actually virtual top ranks but I actually tried revolution deathsquad with HR and I passed it, as I said I have no idea why no top players play it with HR.The 200 bpm streams are super easy and yes, before 4-5 months I considered them really hard but now o'er the flood seems more stamina based map. lol
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

JappyBabes wrote:

speaking as someone who is friends w/ both hakurei and aidia and specs them often, aidia is still more impressive. and yes it's sad seeing certain farmers being voted in.
was just giving an example for how AIDIA gets many votes in the voting and hakurei reimu doesn't simply because people vote based on rumors and there's a rumor going about how good AIDIA is but nobody really talks about many other great asian players who are not as vocal on the english forums as some western players. both of them are really good

if you want real voting based on player skill for top15, it would almost only have asian players, such as wobeinimacao, Dungeon, Rucker, SnowWhite, and many other candidates that western voters are simply not very familiar with.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa
most of the voters in the poll are asian
Kanye West
2,222 posts
Joined July 2011
Topic Starter
Kanye West

JAKACHAN wrote:

Thought I may as well post just state...

Someone voted Tom

Alright, I'm out of here again!
Saw that. If they don't edit, I'm throwing out their vote.
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