woc2006 wrote:

As I said, we can't make rules on anything that unmeasurable, SV limitation is the case.

But as guideline, I would like to write it this way:
Don't use SV when you're not sure about what you're doing.

That's not a guideline, lol.
Putting stuff like "Dont do stuff that sucks" or "Dont put stuff you dont understand" is too general and absolutely pointless.

SV Guideline: Using SV changes are allowed only if there is a significant change in the music's mood/pace/theme. Magnitude of SV changes are up to mapper's discretion.

Further Edit:

I'm not sure how osu!mania handles scroll speed, so I can't say anything about the multiplier of SV changes. In my experience, the mechanisms of the scroll change are really different compared to others (o2jam for example). We'll have to find out how stuff works first (or what works good) before we can set concrete guidelines in values of SV changes.

The only problem I can think of is SV changes in the middle of a long note. Unless the long note's behavior is intentional, putting SV changes in the middle of long notes should be avoided for now.

If it is intentional behavior, then we'll have to find the calculations on how to make the sliders end (and start) exactly where we place them.

Entozer wrote:

SV Guideline: Using SV changes are allowed only if there is a significant change in the music's mood/pace/theme. Magnitude of SV changes are up to mapper's discretion.

Agree

Entozer wrote:

SV Guideline: Using SV changes are allowed only if there is a significant change in the music's mood/pace/theme. Magnitude of SV changes are up to mapper's discretion.

Further Edit:

I'm not sure how osu!mania handles scroll speed, so I can't say anything about the multiplier of SV changes. In my experience, the mechanisms of the scroll change are really different compared to others (o2jam for example). We'll have to find out how stuff works first (or what works good) before we can set concrete guidelines in values of SV changes.

The only problem I can think of is SV changes in the middle of a long note. Unless the long note's behavior is intentional, putting SV changes in the middle of long notes should be avoided for now.

If it is intentional behavior, then we'll have to find the calculations on how to make the sliders end (and start) exactly where we place them.

Don't worry, SV bugs all fixed.

About the mechanism: I've tried 1~65535x SV in a map and it works good.

woc2006 wrote:

Entozer wrote:

SV Guideline: Using SV changes are allowed only if there is a significant change in the music's mood/pace/theme. Magnitude of SV changes are up to mapper's discretion.

Agree

Agree'd as well.

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/593533
it's got really better (talking about ln bugfixes)
but there's still a few cases left such as this (should be few beats later)

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/593538
this one in weapon starts before

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/593547
another case where it's off

thanks woc the improvement is very noticeable on everything else <3

Agka wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/593533
it's got really better (talking about ln bugfixes)
but there's still a few cases left such as this (should be few beats later)

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/593538
this one in weapon starts before

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/593547
another case where it's off

thanks woc the improvement is very noticeable on everything else <3

SV,holds and barlines all fixed. everything is perfect in next build.

I was about to report the current bug hold but I guess it's fixed now, Thanks woc.

EDIT:
Cancel that out, the bug still occurs when you change the bpm inside the hold note. The SV changes were fixed though.

EDIT2: Thank you for fixing it, can't wait for the next patch.

Bobbias wrote:

You asked what i like and dislike and want to avoid in general? I like maps with creativity, something that defines that map in my mind for me. This map has tons of holds in really fun but difficult patterns. This map has lots of speed changes, fun holds, and 2 mashes, all of which I enjoy. This map has a whole bunch of really difficult awkward symmetrical patterns. What don't I like? Offsync mapping, mapping sounds that don't exist, holding back and not making the highest difficulty level for a map actually difficult. Not a whole lot I don't like. What do I want to avoid? Forcing players to turn to unranked/graveyard or unsubmitted maps!

I cried :') +100 respect points to you.

Can we just put one mania diff together with some standard diff just like what we do for the taiko diff?

ACOMG wrote:

Can we just put one mania diff together with some standard diff just like what we do for the taiko diff?

From o!mRC:

Each beatmap must have at least 2 difficulties and one of them must be Easy/Normal.

[Dellirium] wrote:

ACOMG wrote:

Can we just put one mania diff together with some standard diff just like what we do for the taiko diff?

From o!mRC:

Each beatmap must have at least 2 difficulties and one of them must be Easy/Normal.

I knew it, but this is not fair. We can have Standard+1CTB diff and Standard+1taiko diff. Then why can't we have Standard +1mania diff?

ACOMG wrote:

I knew it, but this is not fair. We can have Standard+1CTB diff and Standard+1taiko diff. Then why can't we have Standard +1mania diff?

Hmm, as i know, the same rule shoud be in Taiko, but I couldn't find it in TRC... Maybe someone forgot to add it?

UPD: Nvm, found it here. Mapset section, first rule.

Not having an easier diff is unfair for newbies.

Go into #modhelp or #osumania and yell. "Screw newbies!"

Yeah.

Agka wrote:

Not having an easier diff is unfair for newbies.

I agree.We must have lots of easy diffs now because o!m is pretty new mode here.

I suggest replace this rule in RC:

Mapsets must have at least two osu! standard or Taiko difficulties, one of which must be an Easy/Normal level. It is possible for Marathon difficulties to have only 1 difficulty, but it must be named Marathon for the BSS to allow the submission to pending.

with

Mapsets must have at least two osu! standard, Taiko or o!m difficulties, one of which must be an Easy/Normal level. You must have at least 2 difficulties in every of these game modes if you have more than one. For example, you can't have have 2 Taiko and 1 osu! standard diffs.
• It is possible for Marathon difficulties to have only 1 difficulty, but it must be named Marathon for the BSS to allow the submission to pending.

And we can remove this rule:

A mapset cannot have just one Taiko difficulty. If you decide to include Taiko in your map, make sure you have at least 2 Taiko mode difficulties and that one of them is of an easier difficulty level if it doesn't have an osu! standard Easy level difficulty.

Any objections?

I agree.

I need an agreement from BAT or admin to change the rules :3

This is about a general mapset rule, so we must take a look at future mapsets as a whole, to be fair if we're going to limit o!m to a minimum of 2 diffs one of each must be Easy/Normal level from the get go, since we already do the same for standard and Taiko, this change should be revised for CTB as well.
It makes sense to me that way.

The problem is that there are still too few mania maps in the ecosystem. Limiting them right now would just make it harder to get any ranked and jumpstart mania mapping - I'd say wait until there's at least 20-30 mania maps ranked to impose a two-diff rule on them, CTB is probably fine to amend that now since there's a good 20 maps with CTB diffs.

Yeah that'd probably be the best, tho what i'd like would be to make the rules for min. diffs and diff spread count for each game mode separately in a mapset, and then everything's fair and the same for everyone. Something like


This is basically the same as what already exists, but it would count for all game modes, then we'd edit the diff. spread rule in a similar way.

For every gamemode if present there must be a minimum of 2 difficulties, one of which must be of at least Easy/Normal level. If the standard difficulties on the set if existant convert well enough to an Easy/Normal, an Easy/Normal is not required for that game mode, however the minimum of 2 difficulties still applies.

Perfect phrasing. Can I apply this rule now?
But still I'm not sure about 2 CtB diffs

Why not start with 1 diff minimum and then raise it if you see there is a lot of mapping on mania? I don't think mania's mapping community is any big, the less restrictions you come up with the better. Easy/Normal converted difficulties are fine for newbies (being one myself so I can confirm this), and Hards seem fine too (like they are playable and fun). Start with minimum restrictions, one single mania difficulty should be rankable, if you see the community grows then you may start considering adding a limit of two.

Wishy wrote:

Why not start with 1 diff minimum and then raise it if you see there is a lot of mapping on mania?

The problem is you can't rank a whole o!m mapset with present rules. I want to change at least that.

Wishy wrote:

Easy/Normal converted difficulties are fine for newbies (being one myself so I can confirm this)

I can confirm this too. It also helps a lot that you can change the key amount to what you want to practice.

It's nothing like Taiko, where a lot of the conversions are just... weird.

[Dellirium] wrote:

Wishy wrote:

Why not start with 1 diff minimum and then raise it if you see there is a lot of mapping on mania?

The problem is you can't rank a whole o!m mapset with present rules. I want to change at least that.

What I think you should do is allow a single mania difficulty to get ranked within standard sets. About mania stand alone mapsets I don't really have an opinion. I don't think easy/normal difficulties should be forced at all since you got tons of them already, but then again having only Insanes it would look weird, I don't think it would be a problem tho thing is I'm not sure about how the osu!mania player base is distributed and how much you really need to get mania stand alone map sets ranked anyways.

I'd be ok with Insane sets only being rankable for now, since converted maps play fine for newcomers and I'm sure converted Insanes are kind of bad for experienced players (since the same happens on standard).

Well, I agree that Easy o!m diffs are not needed since converted maps are pretty good.

About mania stand alone mapsets I don't really have an opinion.

Look at Entozer's map. Does he has to map 2 more standard diffs to rank his mapset? I think this is pretty stupid ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I have to agree.

The problem with autoconverted maps is that they have barely any patterns outside of jacks and stairs.

They don't really teach the trade for really building skill up- well, no more than which key is what- and not even that. I tried it with 8k and it was completely useless teaching me 8k.

I for one don't consider autoconversions to be good introductions. Much less challenges.

Agka wrote:

The problem with autoconverted maps is that they have barely any patterns outside of jacks and stairs.

They don't really teach the trade for really building skill up- well, no more than which key is what- and not even that. I tried it with 8k and it was completely useless teaching me 8k.

I for one don't consider autoconversions to be good introductions. Much less challenges.

Completely agreed. Autoconverted maps are absolutely awful in comparison to a map designed for o!m. For examples of mania style mapping, I suggest checking out o2jam conversions (there are quite a few floating around, I even converted quite a few here). Pick any map in the folder I linked and you'll see that the patterns in those maps look quite different than the autoconversions.

Autoconversions are only really capable of teaching players how to hit each key properly. That is, if you practice them enough the only real skill you'll learn is the ability to automatically hit the right key when you see a note. That doesn't make you very good at mania if that's as far as you really get. If you can't read patterns properly, you'll easily end up being overwhelmed by the patterns in slightly more difficult maps. I'd say that autoconversions might teach you enough to pass something around o2jam's level 15 to 20 range. Some players may be able to get more out of it, but level 20 is right about where o2jam maps become interesting and truly fun. I'd say it's roughly equivalent of a Hard standard map, with ~25-35 or so representing a standard Insane, and everything above that being equivalent to stuff like Freedom Dive, Big Black, Big Money, etc.

I'm curious: where does Approved stand for mania? What qualifies as an Approved mania map? What things are allowed there that may not be for a standard Ranked map?

The reason I ask is because if people are releasing single diff maps for mania that only have an Insane diff, wouldn't it make sense that they should be Approved instead of Ranked (provided the single diff is of good enough quality). That would solve the issue of whether or not to rank single diff maps. That way we could still say that a proper Ranked map needs at least 2 diffs, but if you only provide one you still have a chance of your map being recognized as quality mapping.

As it stands, there are players who hardly play mania right now because there is nothing challenging enough for them available that has score ranking. Norzhen hardly plays mania, and I heard that LMatchG stopped playing mania because it was too easy. If there are 2 of them, there are likely more. I know I wouldn't still be playing mania if it wasn't for being able to convert o2jam charts.

Bobbias wrote:

The reason I ask is because if people are releasing single diff maps for mania that only have an Insane diff, wouldn't it make sense that they should be Approved instead of Ranked (provided the single diff is of good enough quality). That would solve the issue of whether or not to rank single diff maps. That way we could still say that a proper Ranked map needs at least 2 diffs, but if you only provide one you still have a chance of your map being recognized as quality mapping.

No, it would make sense if another diff was mapped.

For long songs, making two diffs is a hell of a lot of work, I can see that justified, which is why it's done in standard. While I support having two difficulties, I'd keep it the same way it works in standard now, where a marathon might be standalone.

For non-expert difficulties, you are allowed to use jackhammers IF the BPM is lower than 150 and it fits the music.

Why is there a BPM cap? BPM =/= Difficulty. If it it fits you shouldn't be afraid to use it. Just use common sense for what is too hard in the easier diffs.

Autoconversions are only really capable of teaching players how to hit each key properly.

I can confirm this. I can pass mythologia's end but can't do some lvl 15 Normals because they have too many different (and difficult!) patterns.

MMzz wrote:

Why is there a BPM cap? BPM =/= Difficulty. If it it fits you shouldn't be afraid to use it. Just use common sense for what is too hard in the easier diffs.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ There was a discussion about 3 pages earlier about it. The point was to give a certain number because mappers don't really know which map is hard and which is not This isn't my opinion I just give a summary

MMzz wrote:

For non-expert difficulties, you are allowed to use jackhammers IF the BPM is lower than 150 and it fits the music.

Why is there a BPM cap? BPM =/= Difficulty. If it it fits you shouldn't be afraid to use it. Just use common sense for what is too hard in the easier diffs.

For jackhammers, BPM = difficulty. Most non-expert players can't jackhammer past 150 BPM or so.

As far as autoconverted maps go, newbies don't give a shit about patterns. They are just trying to learn how to hit the keys. For that purpose they are fine.

Note Density > BPM though.

As BPM scales up, note density might go up as well (Most of the time it does) which is why some people confuse that difficulty increases with BPM.

Agka wrote:

Note Density > BPM though.

As BPM scales up, note density might go up as well (Most of the time it does) which is why some people confuse that difficulty increases with BPM.

If they're 1/4 jackhammers, then how fast the notes are depends solely on the BPM.

I haven't disagreed with that. :7

Ekaru wrote:

For jackhammers, BPM = difficulty. Most non-expert players can't jackhammer past 150 BPM or so.

As far as autoconverted maps go, newbies don't give a shit about patterns. They are just trying to learn how to hit the keys. For that purpose they are fine.

I'd like to see these statistics. And like I said, common sense. No one in their right mind would put long jackhammers in easier diffs. Maybe 2-3 notes. That isn't impossible.

those wrote:

Bobbias wrote:

The reason I ask is because if people are releasing single diff maps for mania that only have an Insane diff, wouldn't it make sense that they should be Approved instead of Ranked (provided the single diff is of good enough quality). That would solve the issue of whether or not to rank single diff maps. That way we could still say that a proper Ranked map needs at least 2 diffs, but if you only provide one you still have a chance of your map being recognized as quality mapping.

No, it would make sense if another diff was mapped.

How about explaining why it would make so much more sense, rather than contributing nothing to the discussion except "no, you're wrong"?

If you look through Approved, you'l see a ton of maps with 1 standard diff and 1 taiko diff.

General Ranking Criteria wrote:

Approved Category is only for Marathon maps. Long maps with over 6 minutes of draining time fit the Approval category. Only then they are allowed to be single difficulty mapsets. If they are below 6 minutes of draining time, a full difficulty spread is needed and the map will have to be ranked instead.

As a quick sample from Approved, these are some of the first maps that show up:

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/57255
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/50181
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/56847

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/70248
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/41893
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/46623

The top 3 have 2 diffs, 1 standard and 1 taiko, the last 3 have only 1 diff for standard. None of them are over 6 minutes. This is a blatant violation of the ranking criteria, but it also shows that it's perfectly fine for difficult standard maps to be approved with only 1 diff aimed at experts. All I'm suggesting is allowing the same thing to be done with mania. If you force everyone to only map easy stuff, or to only include difficult things as extras, it will make more and more high level players ignore mania or stop playing altogether because it doesn't provide enough challenge.

So if you're suggesting that mania follow the above quoted General Ranking Criteria rule, maybe standard should follow it as well.

Ekaru wrote:

As far as autoconverted maps go, newbies don't give a shit about patterns. They are just trying to learn how to hit the keys. For that purpose they are fine.

Do I need to point out how terrible an idea it is to only target newbies in a rhythm game? If you look at nearly every music game franchise, when people become familiar with how a game works, the difficulty of the charts/maps for that game increase in difficulty. Osu!Mania is a game where the style of game-play (falling notes which correspond with 1 of a selection of keys) has been around for a very long time, and as such there are players who are capable of passing things that look like they should be physically impossible for a human to do. If you do not take that into consideration, they will find somewhere else to play, and you will miss out on a lot of skilled players and mappers.

So yeah, newbies don't give a shit about patterns, except that patterns are what make mania style game-play fun and interesting. Without good patterns, a map can be perfectly on time, and accurately mapped, and still a boring map to play. If I just decided that every kick in a song would be on key 1, and every snare on key 7, and every hi hat on key 4, i'd bet most people would not want to play any rock music mapped in that style. Because it would be uninteresting and difficult in a bad way (it would be full of "slow jacks" where you keep pressing the same key over and over again with maybe another key or 2 added once in a while, which is interesting for portions of a song, but never an entire song start to finish.)

If there were no other mania style games out there and Osu was the first game to do this game-play, most of the suggestions here would make perfect sense and be the right way to approach things. Make everything newbie friendly, focus on simply churning out enough maps for newbies to play that they can get the feel for the game mode. But you are consistently discounting the fact that you're not the only game in this ecosystem. This is the most popular gameplay ecosystem in music games, and if you want to succeed at making a game mode for osu that is respected and enjoyed by the large community of people who play mania style games you can't afford to only focus on the existing new players being introduced to mania by being Osu! players.

Also, people have said "I don't see people getting SSd on hard autoconverts" earlier: https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=154165&m=3 2 SS's right there, and as mania ages, more people will reach that skill level.

I didn't say anything about autoconverted maps being good for more experienced players. They aren't. I was saying that autoconverted maps are good enough for newbies and, as such, single difficulties are fine.

The issue with approved is that they are gone now aside from Marathons and Gimmick maps so that option is not availaible.

On an addition to the new rule if it's going to be like this we should also discuss this with the CTB player/mapperbase as well, so probably opening a thread specifically for it so that both mania and ctb players/mappers can throw in their opinions would be nice (considering it would be a general rule)

As far as the rule regarding mania goes, it might seem like a lot to start requesting 2 diffs minimum, but take in mind that with this they can ignore standard diffs in their mapset and go ranked as is, on other scenarios they'd have to add taiko OR Standard diffs to the set to get them ranked which i dont think is what the Mania mappers came here to do.

Ekaru wrote:

I didn't say anything about autoconverted maps being good for more experienced players. They aren't. I was saying that autoconverted maps are good enough for newbies and, as such, single difficulties are fine.

@MMz: I don't consider 2, 3 notes to be jackhammers, actually, so that would obviously be fine. The point of the rule is so that mappers can't go, "The rules don't explicitly state that I can't have an 11-note jackhammer on my 200 BPM Hard, so it's rankable goddammit!" Actually, I say specify jackhammers as being 5+ notes.

Ahh, I misunderstood you, sorry. Although every point I have made still stands.

Also youre forgetting a tactic related to jackhammers. Mini-jacks. Mini-jacks are where you have only a few notes in a row, and form patterns out of multiple Mini-Jacks.

Like this:

Those mini-jacks look delicious, actually, because they look like they have a similar effect without kill your fingers.

They can be fun, but also very hard. Especially when layered with more complex patterns. Sometimes mini-jacks+hold and such. I was thinking it might be a good idea for me to run down and explain some patterning in high level o2jam charts sometime, since not everyone here has likely seen some of what can be done.

Bobbias wrote:

They can be fun, but also very hard. Especially when layered with more complex patterns. Sometimes mini-jacks+hold and such. I was thinking it might be a good idea for me to run down and explain some patterning in high level o2jam charts sometime, since not everyone here has likely seen some of what can be done.

Please do so when you have the time.

Where should I post them?

Sakura wrote:

The issue with approved is that they are gone now aside from Marathons and Gimmick maps so that option is not availaible.

What qualifies as a Gimmick map that is good enough to be approved then? Would this count? It's well mapped, but full of jackhammers and very hard. What rules can be broken in Gimmick maps that don't disqualify it for being Ranked/Approved in the first place?

Post them here with a [Tutorial] tag:

56

I've started writing things up. I'm going to publish it as a PDF, because I can use a program on my computer to make things far easier than writing a huge post. I also don't have to worry about post length limits if there is one (something like this could easily be far more than 20k characters.) I've only got about 1k words right now, but it's going to be rather long when I'm done.

I think the autoconverted easy/normal o!m diffs are well enough for the newbies. What they have to learn from them is just to hit the notes properly.
For more advanced techniques they can learn them through playing harder maps!
You won't use jumps and streams in easy/normal standard maps right?

Also I don't see the point to force mappers to map easy/normal o!m maps...Just look at taiko maps. I can never find any easy/normal taiko diffs

ACOMG wrote:

Just look at taiko maps. I can never find any easy/normal taiko diffs

That's because for 2 years (or more?) they werent mandatory so no one made them, so now they are.

i have made a little guide about how to create a mania map and basic mappings!

here: t/118868

learned from PROGUY, Agka and wanwan

Since the osu!mania ranking criterias are established now (see Wiki), I'll mark this with a heart.

Please treat every rule for osu!mania as any other. Read every post of this thread to see, how to discuss further changes on the osu!mania ranking criteria:

https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/56754

Heart'd