If this is a serious reply, then let it be known that it's way too vague to throw in the rules.Agka wrote:
when it doesn't make sense to any of the playtesters or modders. good enough?
If this is a serious reply, then let it be known that it's way too vague to throw in the rules.Agka wrote:
when it doesn't make sense to any of the playtesters or modders. good enough?
"Not making sense" has been a criteria for being unrankable since at least 2008.Jacob wrote:
If this is a serious reply, then let it be known that it's way too vague to throw in the rules.Agka wrote:
when it doesn't make sense to any of the playtesters or modders. good enough?
There is no specific rules about what kind of speed change is rankable or not.TheVileOne wrote:
So what's considered an improper use of slider velocity if that is considered a rule. Does one have to visually notice the slider velocity change for it to take effect? Can modders use this rule at all?
i think the best say it is about how it fits into the music. like you cant just do SV changes at random points in the song, they will make no effect at all. But if there is a minimal break you could kinda make a little stop effect or if it is hinted you can make a drop effect with a short speedup between notes. Its important the player should know why those things are used and the mapper to. The player should know what it is supposed to be even when first time playing. It just gotta fit the music, so yeah the rule dont do stupid things lol.TheVileOne wrote:
So what's considered an improper use of slider velocity if that is considered a rule. Does one have to visually notice the slider velocity change for it to take effect? Can modders use this rule at all?
Suddenly I agree with this.Bobbias wrote:
Making rules for SV use is a bad idea. It's hard to come up with a good rule that you can say 100% of the time makes sense. If the rule does not make sense 100% of the time, for every song, then it should not be a rule, but a guideline.
Limiting SV speeds and controlling SV usage should be a guideline.
If I was writing a rule for SV's, it would be this:
"You must be able to explain why you used an SV based on something in the music." That's it. If you want to emphasize a section of silence by teporarily stopping or nearly stopping notes, go ahead. If you want to emphasize the music creating a high-energy section by suddenly cranking up the SV, then you should be allowed to do that too. It's very difficult to have SV changes that are too extreme to read, and even if it's too hard to sightread the first time, making every map sightreadable 100% of the time is a bad idea. It makes maps boring.
I can agree with that.TheVileOne wrote:
We're not making much progress with this.
Let's not. Osu!mania is a different game, and SV changes do not affect mania as much as they affect taiko. Notes cannot overlap eachother like they can in taiko when changing speed. Also, because taiko uses very large hitobjects, there are fewer notes on screen, which means that the speeds need to be faster for a given BPM.TheVileOne wrote:
I think the guideline for slider velocities counts here. I mean lets compare it to taiko.
Which is EXACTLY what I said in my post.TheVileOne wrote:
If you're going to change the speed, it should complement the music.
You're forgetting something: Adjustable speed. In mania, scroll speed is not absolute because the user can change their speed multiplier, which gives the player a way to compensate for wild swings in speed by lowering or raising their speed to compensate.TheVileOne wrote:
This guideline should count especially for osu!mania
When including a slider velocity change, there should be a discernible change in the map's tempo. A spacing change, a short break in the map, or a slider containing at least one tick will help show the transition between them.
Correct me if I am wrong about this. I am at college and cannot check, but the track speed is similar to AR in standard.
Maybe you should actually play mania, instead of presuming to tell players and mappers who have been playing and mapping mania how the game should work. Speed changes are a multiplier, as far as I know. I believe they have a linear relationship, because if I play a 100 BPM song at speed 20, and a 200 BPM song at speed 10, they will be scrolling at or very close to the same speed. If I was playing a 150 BPM map at speed 17 (which is what I play at) and there was an SV change to 2x, the scroll speed would be equivalent to 300 BPM at speed 17, or 150 BPM at speed 34 (which doesn't exist). Now, most SV changes at or above 2x are not meant to last for a long time.TheVileOne wrote:
Does user adjusted mania speed settings stack on top of speed adjustments? If the user has it set to 16, and the SV increases, what happens? Clarify this so I will not be ignorant about it in the future.
What a mania player dislikes has nothing to do with what the rules should be. I hate linear mapping in osu standard with a passion, but I don't think there should be a rule against it. I hate low AR on more difficult maps (anything AR8 or below on an insane counts for the purpose of my personal opinion) but I'm not saying we need a rule for that either. We DO want more creative freedom, because we know that the people who will take advantage of that are the people who understand mapping for mania. You know how taiko players mostly play unranked stuff? If you make restrictive rules, you are going to force the pros of mania to do that too. We need to set things up in a way that allows for newcomers to have friendly accessible maps that they can learn on and improve on, and we also need to be able to at the very least have a good collection of ranked or accepted pro level maps.TheVileOne wrote:
Edit: We still need a comprehensive ruleset. I don't know when this will be finished, but we'll be discussion this stuff over and over if we do not have an easily accessible reference point for rules. What do mania players not want in their maps? I know it's going to be hard to sacrifice some of your creative freedom, but do you really want an anything goes kind of ruleset? What do mania players dislike and want to avoid in general? We're going to develop guidelines here, and hopefully we can compile those guidelines together. If you have one, try to put it into a guideline form with the main topic as bold and supporting details following after it.
That's not a guideline, lol.woc2006 wrote:
As I said, we can't make rules on anything that unmeasurable, SV limitation is the case.
But as guideline, I would like to write it this way:
Don't use SV when you're not sure about what you're doing.
AgreeEntozer wrote:
SV Guideline: Using SV changes are allowed only if there is a significant change in the music's mood/pace/theme. Magnitude of SV changes are up to mapper's discretion.
Don't worry, SV bugs all fixed.Entozer wrote:
SV Guideline: Using SV changes are allowed only if there is a significant change in the music's mood/pace/theme. Magnitude of SV changes are up to mapper's discretion.
Further Edit:
I'm not sure how osu!mania handles scroll speed, so I can't say anything about the multiplier of SV changes. In my experience, the mechanisms of the scroll change are really different compared to others (o2jam for example). We'll have to find out how stuff works first (or what works good) before we can set concrete guidelines in values of SV changes.
The only problem I can think of is SV changes in the middle of a long note. Unless the long note's behavior is intentional, putting SV changes in the middle of long notes should be avoided for now.
If it is intentional behavior, then we'll have to find the calculations on how to make the sliders end (and start) exactly where we place them.
Agree'd as well.woc2006 wrote:
AgreeEntozer wrote:
SV Guideline: Using SV changes are allowed only if there is a significant change in the music's mood/pace/theme. Magnitude of SV changes are up to mapper's discretion.
SV,holds and barlines all fixed. everything is perfect in next build.Agka wrote:
http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/593533
it's got really better (talking about ln bugfixes)
but there's still a few cases left such as this (should be few beats later)
http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/593538
this one in weapon starts before
http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/593547
another case where it's off
thanks woc the improvement is very noticeable on everything else <3
I cried :') +100 respect points to you.Bobbias wrote:
You asked what i like and dislike and want to avoid in general? I like maps with creativity, something that defines that map in my mind for me. This map has tons of holds in really fun but difficult patterns. This map has lots of speed changes, fun holds, and 2 mashes, all of which I enjoy. This map has a whole bunch of really difficult awkward symmetrical patterns. What don't I like? Offsync mapping, mapping sounds that don't exist, holding back and not making the highest difficulty level for a map actually difficult. Not a whole lot I don't like. What do I want to avoid? Forcing players to turn to unranked/graveyard or unsubmitted maps!
From o!mRC:ACOMG wrote:
Can we just put one mania diff together with some standard diff just like what we do for the taiko diff?
I knew it, but this is not fair. We can have Standard+1CTB diff and Standard+1taiko diff. Then why can't we have Standard +1mania diff?[Dellirium] wrote:
From o!mRC:ACOMG wrote:
Can we just put one mania diff together with some standard diff just like what we do for the taiko diff?
Each beatmap must have at least 2 difficulties and one of them must be Easy/Normal.
Hmm, as i know, the same rule shoud be in Taiko, but I couldn't find it in TRC... Maybe someone forgot to add it?ACOMG wrote:
I knew it, but this is not fair. We can have Standard+1CTB diff and Standard+1taiko diff. Then why can't we have Standard +1mania diff?
I agree.We must have lots of easy diffs now because o!m is pretty new mode here.Agka wrote:
Not having an easier diff is unfair for newbies.
Mapsets must have at least two osu! standard or Taiko difficulties, one of which must be an Easy/Normal level. It is possible for Marathon difficulties to have only 1 difficulty, but it must be named Marathon for the BSS to allow the submission to pending.with
Mapsets must have at least two osu! standard, Taiko or o!m difficulties, one of which must be an Easy/Normal level. You must have at least 2 difficulties in every of these game modes if you have more than one. For example, you can't have have 2 Taiko and 1 osu! standard diffs.And we can remove this rule:
• It is possible for Marathon difficulties to have only 1 difficulty, but it must be named Marathon for the BSS to allow the submission to pending.
A mapset cannot have just one Taiko difficulty. If you decide to include Taiko in your map, make sure you have at least 2 Taiko mode difficulties and that one of them is of an easier difficulty level if it doesn't have an osu! standard Easy level difficulty.Any objections?
For every gamemode if present there must be a minimum of 2 difficulties, one of which must be of at least Easy/Normal level. If the standard difficulties on the set if existant convert well enough to an Easy/Normal, an Easy/Normal is not required for that game mode, however the minimum of 2 difficulties still applies.Perfect phrasing. Can I apply this rule now?
The problem is you can't rank a whole o!m mapset with present rules. I want to change at least that.Wishy wrote:
Why not start with 1 diff minimum and then raise it if you see there is a lot of mapping on mania?
I can confirm this too. It also helps a lot that you can change the key amount to what you want to practice.Wishy wrote:
Easy/Normal converted difficulties are fine for newbies (being one myself so I can confirm this)
What I think you should do is allow a single mania difficulty to get ranked within standard sets. About mania stand alone mapsets I don't really have an opinion. I don't think easy/normal difficulties should be forced at all since you got tons of them already, but then again having only Insanes it would look weird, I don't think it would be a problem tho thing is I'm not sure about how the osu!mania player base is distributed and how much you really need to get mania stand alone map sets ranked anyways.[Dellirium] wrote:
The problem is you can't rank a whole o!m mapset with present rules. I want to change at least that.Wishy wrote:
Why not start with 1 diff minimum and then raise it if you see there is a lot of mapping on mania?
About mania stand alone mapsets I don't really have an opinion.Look at Entozer's map. Does he has to map 2 more standard diffs to rank his mapset? I think this is pretty stupid ¯\_(ツ)_/¯