TheVileOne wrote:
We're not making much progress with this.
I can agree with that.
TheVileOne wrote:
I think the guideline for slider velocities counts here. I mean lets compare it to taiko.
Let's not. Osu!mania is a different game, and SV changes do not affect mania as much as they affect taiko. Notes cannot overlap eachother like they can in taiko when changing speed. Also, because taiko uses very large hitobjects, there are fewer notes on screen, which means that the speeds need to be faster for a given BPM.
TheVileOne wrote:
If you're going to change the speed, it should complement the music.
Which is EXACTLY what I said in my post.
TheVileOne wrote:
This guideline should count especially for osu!mania
When including a slider velocity change, there should be a discernible change in the map's tempo. A spacing change, a short break in the map, or a slider containing at least one tick will help show the transition between them.
Correct me if I am wrong about this. I am at college and cannot check, but the track speed is similar to AR in standard.
You're forgetting something: Adjustable speed. In mania, scroll speed is not absolute because the user can change their speed multiplier, which gives the player a way to compensate for wild swings in speed by lowering or raising their speed to compensate.
Agka submitted a guest diff for
xi - Blue Zenith which is 200 BPM and uses SV changes to go up to 1.6x (effectively 320 BPM). Normally, I would read 200 BM at speed 12, but since this map uses SV changes to go faster, I need to lower my speed to about 10 to read the fast parts effectively. If your AR suddenly jumped from 7 to 9 in standard, and you can't read anything above 7, you have no way to lower it so that it goes from 5 to 7, but in mania we can effectively do that with speed settings. This makes SV changes much less of an issue.
TheVileOne wrote:
Does user adjusted mania speed settings stack on top of speed adjustments? If the user has it set to 16, and the SV increases, what happens? Clarify this so I will not be ignorant about it in the future.
Maybe you should actually play mania, instead of presuming to tell players and mappers who have been playing and mapping mania how the game should work. Speed changes are a multiplier, as far as I know. I believe they have a linear relationship, because if I play a 100 BPM song at speed 20, and a 200 BPM song at speed 10, they will be scrolling at or very close to the same speed. If I was playing a 150 BPM map at speed 17 (which is what I play at) and there was an SV change to 2x, the scroll speed would be equivalent to 300 BPM at speed 17, or 150 BPM at speed 34 (which doesn't exist). Now, most SV changes at or above 2x are not meant to last for a long time.
TheVileOne, you're missing the point I'm trying to make here:
not everyone will use SV changes to make things unreadabe. Most mappers will never use it for anything more than dealing with legitimate speed changes in the song. You admit you don't know a lot about mania, maybe you should stop trying to control something you don't understand, and let the people who do understand it discuss things.TheVileOne wrote:
Edit: We still need a comprehensive ruleset. I don't know when this will be finished, but we'll be discussion this stuff over and over if we do not have an easily accessible reference point for rules. What do mania players not want in their maps? I know it's going to be hard to sacrifice some of your creative freedom, but do you really want an anything goes kind of ruleset? What do mania players dislike and want to avoid in general? We're going to develop guidelines here, and hopefully we can compile those guidelines together. If you have one, try to put it into a guideline form with the main topic as bold and supporting details following after it.
What a mania player dislikes has nothing to do with what the rules should be. I hate linear mapping in osu standard with a passion, but I don't think there should be a rule against it. I hate low AR on more difficult maps (anything AR8 or below on an insane counts for the purpose of my personal opinion) but I'm not saying we need a rule for that either. We DO want more creative freedom, because we know that the people who will take advantage of that are the people who understand mapping for mania. You know how taiko players mostly play unranked stuff? If you make restrictive rules, you are going to force the pros of mania to do that too. We
need to set things up in a way that allows for newcomers to have friendly accessible maps that they can learn on and improve on, and we
also need to be able to at the very least have a good collection of ranked or accepted pro level maps.
You asked what i like and dislike and want to avoid in general? I like maps with creativity, something that defines that map in my mind for me.
This map has tons of holds in really fun but difficult patterns.
This map has lots of speed changes, fun holds, and 2 mashes, all of which I enjoy.
This map has a whole bunch of really difficult awkward symmetrical patterns. What don't I like? Offsync mapping, mapping sounds that don't exist, holding back and not making the highest difficulty level for a map actually difficult. Not a whole lot I don't like. What do I want to avoid? Forcing players to turn to unranked/graveyard or unsubmitted maps!