Agka wrote:

"Map something. It can."

really?

I mean, really?

Yeah... really.
I was messing around seeing if I could get the pauses in Max Infinity to work visually in osu! and it worked like a charm.
I didn't use absolute 0 BPM, I used 0.01 and there were no problems at all.

rickyboi wrote:

Anyway I don't wanna see any rules about preventing jackhammers

to me it is like asking not to put rules about extremely stupidly retarded streams in taiko. (and those words just are dimming what I think to the maximum extent)
for approval yes as long as we can make long jackhammers that are >8bt long without breaking people's hands (do you know people who can jackhammer Freedom Dive ?), but people who can't play that speed should not be left if the map is for ranking.

Kuro wrote:

I wish Taiko mappers were more creative like this... or maybe they aren't to blame and it's the rules that hold them back.

0x sections does not exist anymore, as well as >10x, that's why I ditched my The End project. Kuri's Sebben Crudele is completely broken, now. All because this fucking stupid 0x section in some ranked map made it broken, thanks to the HD fix. :/

Charles445 wrote:

Agka wrote:

"Map something. It can."

really?

I mean, really?

Yeah... really.
I was messing around seeing if I could get the pauses in Max Infinity to work visually in osu! and it worked like a charm.
I didn't use absolute 0 BPM, I used 0.01 and there were no problems at all.

try changing your map's offset (so all red points can stay where they are right now) and/or move all of your notes at the same time (which you can select them all, but you can't drag them through the timeline)

whatever, do as you like.

i'm not up to really explain it, I honestly can't care less if you're acting stubborn and prefer doing hacky bpm changes instead of sv velocity multipliers.

You can do smooth changes too you just need to add 2 more timing sections

The bpm changes messes up your charts falling guideline. That's what's so broken about it. I'd really like it if we can just use the velocity to multiply / divide the downspeed just like Taiko.

Silynn wrote:

Shiro wrote:

If a hitsound needs to be removed, then there shouldn't be any hitobject at that spot in the first place.

I see no point in making this a rule, though.
Having too many rules limits creativity and just confuses people.
If something like this comes up in a map, it will in most (if not all) cases not fit at all and be modded out.

I think the rule is completely unnecessary, and I don't think unnecessary rules are healthy

My point is that there should not be any rule forcing mappers to use hitsounds.

Mania maps have 2 styles, one is COMPLETELY NO hitsound style ( e.g. no key sound bms) and the other is completely-set hitsound style(e.g. o2jam/djmax songs, key-sound BMS). For these songs without any hitsound, it is intended to play without any disturbance (even with osu! default hitsound). So mapper should be left freedom to have hitsounds or not on their maps.

P.S. Actually I played mania always with sound effect close to avoid disturbance of default hit sound.

rickyboi wrote:

The bpm changes messes up your charts falling guideline. That's what's so broken about it. I'd really like it if we can just use the velocity to multiply / divide the downspeed just like Taiko.

Actually, most mania maps that already exist ( actually the mania mapping style) is using BPM change.

There are no such "velocity" concept in mania mapping in other games though

Drafura wrote:

Big and Busty wrote:

I have a few maps with 0 - 9999 bpm, and I don't really see anything broken?

Link ? I'm really interested in how this is done in a good way.

I have handmad 20-65535 maps for test purpose.

It works fine.

_Gezo_ wrote:

Hmm, to start with, few ideas :

- Avoiding the use of 1-finger streams for too long. They can become frustrating to play at higher speeds and thus make the whole chart unfun.
- Maybe using pauses and stuff ? I don't know about the 0-bpm thing in osu!mania. If this is possible to do such a thing, avoiding the overuse of those things. Gimmicks, but not too much. Allowing this for non-musical parts (Gangnam Style has nothing preceeding "Oppan Gangnam Style" before the chorus if you want an example.)
- What I said above, this also applies for x2 x4 x8 x16 and stuff sections, not anyone is a hardcore StepMania player who can read gimmicks with X-mods ! The chart should be sightreadable.
- Unicity of the scrolling speed through the whole mania mapset.

You can discuss about these ideas and add some more !

1-finger streams are sometimes suitable, but in very stricted situations. And in most cases it is with some spaces like:(all in 1/4)

x_xx_xx_x_xx_xx_x_xx_xx_x_xx_xx_xxx_xx....

you may be familiar with that pattern in taiko. That's it.

Though the most concern is overusing of that, or even 1/8 streams. (like Identity II in o2jam, (there're a hand-made beatmap by entozer? I forget that) Would that kind of thing be rankable?

statementreply wrote:

Loctav wrote:

Also I'd consider disallowing all-key holds in 6k+ (hardware issues for certain keyboard users, especially USB keyboard users (ghosting))

I'd like it to be
* No 7+ objects at the same time, including hit notes, hold notes and hold note tails.

Mappers can easily make a rule break by placing 7 note like this:

1/16 _ _ _ _ X X X
0 X X X X _ _ _

(Though it is commonly used in piano songs.)


Like Bobbias said, I do think there should not be a forced difficulty setting for "normal" difficulties.
Beatmaps can have (or should have/must have, that doesn't matter) 2 or more diffs, though all of them are above "easy" level(such as lv 15 in o2jam).
Making an easy diff for a few songs are just mad, extremely for songs full of 1/4 or 1/8 beats . For example, if you try to make a lv5 difficulty for ez2dj song "Fire Storm", you would end up making a map of nonsense. These songs are hard for beginners even in catching the beats. So in these cases( maybe really rare), a so-easy diff should not be forced. example used for comparison ( I don't know whether it is suitable) is APP maps in osu! standard. They don't have easy diffs ( maybe that's the reason why they are APPed).

Please dont triple post and use the edit button next time.

xxbidiao, stop trying to convince everyone else that bpm changes work

just turn on the barline and see how very freaking broken it is. A new red point implies start of a measure for osu! at this time, which basically breaks the timelines.

Given the rhythm complexity changing offset becomes tedious.

and sorry but this isn't other rhythm games, this is osu! so while we can use other games as a guideline we can't force THEIR standards into THIS game.

Agka wrote:

xxbidiao, stop trying to convince everyone else that bpm changes work

just turn on the barline and see how very freaking broken it is. A new red point implies start of a measure for osu! at this time, which basically breaks the timelines.

Given the rhythm complexity changing offset becomes tedious.

and sorry but this isn't other rhythm games, this is osu! so while we can use other games as a guideline we can't force THEIR standards into THIS game.

It nothing about bpm changing, it's my fault that i haven't make barlines works the right way which will takes a great amount of effort.
Osu! has a different method to measure barline and it cause troubles in mania. Use green lines for speed changing may help and this feature comes later.

woc2006 wrote:

Use green lines for speed changing may help and this feature comes later.

MY GOD! FINALLY!

I assume xxbidiao is talking about this?

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?69e2vuen437p2op

And yes, I am curious. Is this kind of map rankable?

woc2006 wrote:

Agka wrote:

xxbidiao, stop trying to convince everyone else that bpm changes work

just turn on the barline and see how very freaking broken it is. A new red point implies start of a measure for osu! at this time, which basically breaks the timelines.

Given the rhythm complexity changing offset becomes tedious.

and sorry but this isn't other rhythm games, this is osu! so while we can use other games as a guideline we can't force THEIR standards into THIS game.

It nothing about bpm changing, it's my fault that i haven't make barlines works the right way which will takes a great amount of effort.
Osu! has a different method to measure barline and it cause troubles in mania. Use green lines for speed changing may help and this feature comes later.

my god woc, thanks. But that barline handling osu! has is the reason I'm voting to disallow bpm changes in favor of SV changes.

@Entozer: Nice chart, and yes if it has the bpm changes removed atm. Unless woc changes it or you replace it with sv changes if they're implemented (Yes, I saw the like, 2 effect bpm changes you used but yeah, barlines.)

Yes, I am willing to change them, as well as change the bpm sections I made in my other maps. Provided that woc really does make it to do SV changes like how a lot of people want it. And thanks.

Actually green line speed change has huge limitation, and it was said by woc2006 that red-line BPM change is only affecting barline showing now. Everything other than that is OK ,so red-line BPM change should work

if woc implements bpm changes not altering the barline or making it act correctly maybe, but even then bpm is not supposed to be used for THAT.

i'm not against using bpm changes, i'm against using them as visual effects when you can simply go ahead and use the SV changes woc is going to introduce.

seriously.

and the limitation is that it hasn't been implemented yet.

ps: all the reasons of why not use bpm changes have been stated and some weren't stated by me. so yeah.

It's in the ranking criteria that the bpm must be correct. If a song is 100bpm it won't ever be 800bpm even if you want a 8x scroll at one point. Unfortunately, the editor limits slider velocity changes from 0.5x to 2.0x, but maybe it can be implemented that the sv multiplier can have a larger range for osu!mania.

those wrote:

the editor limits slider velocity changes from 0.5x to 2.0x

changing the .osu file can extend these values from 0.1x to 10.0x

for mania it should be able to go from 0 to 4, i think. 100% notefield stops are a common fun thing in BPM gimmick files!

I created [[osu!mania Ranking Criteria]], because we already have some approved rules and having a wiki page will fasten the process of creating final version of the page.
Yay!

those wrote:

It's in the ranking criteria that the bpm must be correct. If a song is 100bpm it won't ever be 800bpm even if you want a 8x scroll at one point. Unfortunately, the editor limits slider velocity changes from 0.5x to 2.0x, but maybe it can be implemented that the sv multiplier can have a larger range for osu!mania.

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.

If SV change has the ability like 0.97551x or 21.64073x, that will make every mapper satisfied, though we need woc to take more effort

For jackhammers, I didn't found the exactly definition. My point is that it should not be restricted too much - at least, just 5 combo (which is like the situation in wiki page) in very rare cases should be allowed. If Jackhammer protection is mainly for "It's called a jackhammer because you literally have to jackhammer your keyboard with your hand to play, feeling unnatural and broken. It is also very difficult to play, requiring people to learn to vibrate the wrist." Only a *really* few jackhammers and enough space between them would be OK and abandoning use of them may make map unnatural in some cases.
So would it be better to just become a guideline in most situations? ( Or to gradually untighten this rule to just prevent jackhammers that lasts way too long(like 10~20 sec) or even a whole map?)

at least, just 5 combo (which is like the situation in wiki page)

This is just an example.

even a whole map?

You are telling this like if there wasn't exact phrase of what jackhammer is, all maps will consist between 100% jackhammers . Don't be so obsessed.

Strict rules are not needed. Telling "170 bpm 1/4 one column pattern is a jackhammer and 169 bpm are not" is pretty stupid.

Sorry for second post. Though I would like to make another post for it

How about "one-second kill"?

One-second kill is firstly widely used in O2jam to represent a period of song that is *FAR* more harder than most other part of the song that makes player to "fail in one second".

Though you all know o!m life is very easy-going, and it is really hard to perform a one-second kill here, which makes "one-second kill" not so meaningful. But these periods are still way too hard to pass without missing( or even saying, "Anyone without missing is cheating" in rare cases is proper). The problem here I want to rise is that for these insane one-second kill. Should we put any restrictions on it?

Note: one-second kill != jackhammers.

Some examples for one-second kill: (if not sepcified they are in 1/8 scale) :

1. character kill (it's like an M)

|-oo-oo-|
|-o-o-o-|
|o--o--o|
|o--o--o|
|o--o--o|
|o--o--o|
|-------|


2. one kind of slider kill ( not using 7K to prevent confusing to 7-key-at-the-same-time problem)(in this example # represents a slider part)

|----|
|###-|
|###o|
|###-|
|##-#|
|##o#|
|##-#|
|#-##|
|#o##|
|#-##|
|-###|
|o###|
|-###|
|####|

3.very-very quick notes from one side to the other and going back. (from Identity III hard style)
*This one is in 1/16 scale!*


|-o-----|
|o----o-|
|-o-----|
|--o----|
|o--o---|
|----o--|
|-----o-|
|-o----o|
|-----o-|
|----o--|
|o--o---|
|--o----|
|-o-----|
|o------|

[Dellirium] wrote:

at least, just 5 combo (which is like the situation in wiki page)

This is just an example.

even a whole map?

You are telling this like if there wasn't exact phrase of what jackhammer is, all maps will consist between 100% jackhammers . Don't be so obsessed.

Strict rules are not needed. Telling "170 bpm 1/4 one column pattern is a jackhammer and 169 bpm are not" is pretty stupid.

the whole jackhammer song in my post is of that kind of thing: a stream lasts from the beginning to the ending of the song without any break, like a few taiko maps. There are rules that prevent taiko map of that kind be ranked too

those "one second kills" you're talking about are called mashes.
and it's probably safe to say I'd rather have a guideline to tell people to avoid mashes like the plague.

edit: your third example isn't a mash. it's imho perfectly rankable.

Agka wrote:

those "one second kills" you're talking about are called mashes.
and it's probably safe to say I'd rather have a guideline to tell people to avoid mashes like the plague.

edit: your third example isn't a mash. it's imho perfectly rankable.

For the third example I had a little mod to avoid it becoming a jackhammer, though It may be harder than at least the second example above.
Guideline is really great thing! Though we may need more human effort to consider whether a period is a mash or not.

it's not that hard imho. :p

Guideline(or at least a suggestion):
-Refrain from using patterns the are to played pressing too many keys at the same moment.

Reason: Not anyone have a Blackwidow or a gaming keyboard to play the game.

But then, not all keyboards have to be specifically blackwidow or a gaming one to be able to press at least 7 keys. I can't really see how people can't press at least 6 (+1 modifier) key at once with any kind of keyboard. I've used cheap usb keyboard that costs less than $3 and I can easily press 7 keys with it. In fact all the keyboards I've used so far can be setted up to press 7 keys simultanously. No exceptions.

Unless there are somea lot of retarded keyboards I don't know of that literally limits any key combinations to 4-5 keys, there shouldn't be anything in the guideline/ranking criteria that limits the amount of keys we can press at the same moment.

Isn't this a guideline if you can use it ? (I mean the entire jackhammer rule)

Entozer wrote:

Unless there are somea lot of retarded keyboards I don't know of that literally limits any key combinations to 4-5 keys, there shouldn't be anything in the guideline/ranking criteria that limits the amount of keys we can press at the same moment.

There are a lot of "retarded" keyboards that you don't know of, then. And I mean a lot.

Ekaru wrote:

Entozer wrote:

Unless there are somea lot of retarded keyboards I don't know of that literally limits any key combinations to 4-5 keys, there shouldn't be anything in the guideline/ranking criteria that limits the amount of keys we can press at the same moment.

There are a lot of "retarded" keyboards that you don't know of, then. And I mean a lot.

Forgive me if I'm quite the stubborn one but unless they tried every possible key combinations within comfortable range of playing osu!mania for those keyboards, there shouldn't be a limit in the ranking criteria. And also, it would be great if people could name the model of their keyboard that can't press anything more than 4 keys not including modifier keys.

Ranking criteria should NOT be based on whether some people with bad hardware can or can't play something.

Similarly, it's never a good idea to completely ban certain things just because they are extremely difficult for most players. This is a skill based game. If someone doesnt have the skill to pass a map, too bad; someone else quite possibly does. Just because I'm terrible at this map doesnt mean it should be made unrankable. Sure, it's full of jackhammers. In fact, the whole point of the map was jackhammer practice. The jackhammers still make sense, so it should be rankable. (Also, I'm just using that as an example, but the point is that there are plenty of times when extremely difficult sections or patterns just make sense, including mashes. While mashes should generally be frowned upon, and should only be allowed if the mapper can explain exactly why they want a mash, I do think that in limited cases mashes and extremely difficult patterns should be allowed.)

Bobbias wrote:

Ranking criteria should NOT be based on whether some people with bad hardware can or can't play something.

Similarly, it's never a good idea to completely ban certain things just because they are extremely difficult for most players. This is a skill based game. If someone doesnt have the skill to pass a map, too bad; someone else quite possibly does. Just because I'm terrible at this map doesnt mean it should be made unrankable. Sure, it's full of jackhammers. In fact, the whole point of the map was jackhammer practice. The jackhammers still make sense, so it should be rankable. (Also, I'm just using that as an example, but the point is that there are plenty of times when extremely difficult sections or patterns just make sense, including mashes. While mashes should generally be frowned upon, and should only be allowed if the mapper can explain exactly why they want a mash, I do think that in limited cases mashes and extremely difficult patterns should be allowed.)

Yeah, I agree with you.
Most of the ranking criteria part should be guidelines - whenever a mapper can explain why there should be something(e.g. jackhammers, mashes, slider sea and many more), it should be OK.

Anyway, the point is that to prevent overuse of these styles, not to prevent using them at all.

And for another thing: the difficulty span.

wikipage wrote:

Each beatmap must have at least 2 difficulties and one of them must be Easy/Normal. You can raise the keyamount with increasing difficulty but not vica versa. Means:
if you have an Easy 4K, you can have a Hard 6K.
If you have an Easy 6K, you can not have a Hard 4K.
If you have an Easy 4K, you can have a Hard 4K (obvious).

The first question is: How easy is "easy/normal"?
Like some of the former member said, there were a great amount of insane "easy" charts in other games. They are insane, very very insane that even the easy diff is harder than most of "insane" diffs.
Now you may say, "Put a limitation on max difficulty on easy diff is OK." In my former post, I have pointed out that due to the o!m playing style, it's really pointless to make an easy-as-pie diff for a few songs.
I have a thought to change the rule to: "Each beatmap must have at least 2 difficulties and one of them must be visibilly easier than one of other diff." Which means that there should be at least one diff that is clearly easy to insane diff.(The diff may still be very hard, just like oni and inner-oni in taiko.)

The second question is: Why should we put limit on keyamount?
It's clear that high keyamount is not equal to high difficulty. And in many cases, especially in "normal" diffs, with the same note count, higher keyamout map is easier. 4key is hard for the density of notes in the map, and 7/8key is hard for taking care of every key. They all have different aspect on difficulty, so we can expect mapper to use that wisely. Furthermore, many mappers are willing to make a less-keyamount map as an addition to their existing 7key maps. If the rule is applied, they have to reduce the difficulty of their 4key map or to raise the difficulty of 7key maps(Making a map unreasonably harder is more unbearable than making easy thing and that's already in other modes' criteria!) just to satisfy the rule. Wouldn't that be silly?
So my suggestion is that to take away the keyamount rule.

A map is easier when the patterns are simpler and the note density is lower.

A map is easy when a newbie can do them.

I'd rather have a guideline to say (though i'd leave it as a tip) to not use a chord above 6 keys, personally, but hardly to make something unrankable because you have to mash all 7/8 keys.

the rule of "limiting keyamounts" it's so it makes sense, not because we hate having easy 7ks and hard 4ks on a mapset.

Entozer wrote:

Forgive me if I'm quite the stubborn one but unless they tried every possible key combinations within comfortable range of playing osu!mania for those keyboards, there shouldn't be a limit in the ranking criteria. And also, it would be great if people could name the model of their keyboard that can't press anything more than 4 keys not including modifier keys.

Read these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollover_%28key%29
http://www.microsoft.com/appliedscience ... ained.mspx

Rollover and ghosting are things. As for proof with model names, here you go:

http://hardforum.com/archive/index.php/t-1523154.html

Will I need to get out the mechanical keyboard review site that specifies the max amount of keys each keyboard they review can press, or is this enough? BTW, this keyboard at school has three-key combinations that don't work, like FG+ D, S, or A. You have to use very specific combinations to get the maximum of 6... which still rules out 7-key presses. Anyways, there are indeed many keyboards with 4- or 5-key rollover.

EDIT: Added a link and reworded things. I originally mixed up n-key rollover and ghosting. Oops.

My USB keyboard can't press 7 keys at the same time. Configuring my left keys to [shift] [z] [x] fixes the problem tho still near on space bar x.x

I think I have to agree implementing osu!mania ranking criteria in each key modes. Not everyone is good on 7 keys, or 8 keys lol. After each key modes, I would also suggest that there's an overall osu!mania ranking where in more keys, higher rank but I guess its kinda complicated.

Well but i think it is about map ranking critieria and not about if you keyboard cant play this game. Also 6 or 7 at once is rarely used anyways and the people that play songs with such a difficulty have a keyboard that works for the game ....

arcwinolivirus wrote:

My USB keyboard can't press 7 keys at the same time. Configuring my left keys to [shift] [z] [x] fixes the problem tho still near on space bar x.x

That's because Shift is a modifier key, so it's not counted in the typical total of 6 normal keys for USB*. Though, who wants to do weird set-ups like that?

Cap of 4 for Easy through Hard and 6 for Insanes would probably be the best compromise, though. It's mainly more casual players that will have keyboards that can't go all the way up to 6, right?

*Not 6 of any combo of normal keys, mind you, but sdfjkl + space shouldn't have any conflicts or trouble getting to 6, right?

Don't cap the keys, it's a terrible idea lol.

just mod the mappers so they don't do stupid stuff (eg insanes only)
and everyone will be happy.

Agka wrote:

Don't cap the keys, it's a terrible idea lol.

just mod the mappers so they don't do stupid stuff (eg insanes only)
and everyone will be happy.

Proposing a cap on key modes you can do would be stupid - all keyboards can handle 8K as long as there are no all-key presses.

As far as a simultaneous button-pressing rule, though? It'd be best for you guys to establish a fairly lenient rule now before some modders with low-KRO keyboards go in and start making up rules and then you wind up with modders saying "NO 5-KEY PRESSES ON INSANE IT NO WORK" and crap and then you have to keep on telling them to fix their set-up and then the thread derails into an argument of casuals VS people who actually know what they're talking about.

Then a new rule is made in an attempt to settle things down and it's something like, "only 2 keys at same time max pl0x kthx" and then everyone ragequits. I speak from experience. >_>

Ekaru. That's why Im exactly saying there are no keyboard that can't do 7key presses. You yourself had said that you have to use a specific key combination to get to 6 key, which what I'm trying to tell you in the second post I made +1 modifier key.

In my USB keyboard I had it set to shiftZX+space+KL; just to be able to press 7keys. In other keyboards I have to use QWE space ./Shift. There are no reasons not to be able to press 7 keys. And I have read all the articles you presented a long time ago, too.

If you want to know who uses a "weird" set-up like shiftZX space KL;, I do. And Here's proof. You might not see it well but I am practically using shiftZX space KL;.

/keyboard

"Capping the keys is a terrible idea."

@Hanyuu
To be honest all I stated was limiting the amount of simultaneous keypress shouldn't be in the ranking criteria at all but because of the premises they gave I have to argue with keyboards.

Entozer wrote:

That's why Im exactly saying there are no keyboard that can't do 7key presses.
There are no reasons not to be able to press 7 keys.

Oh my god...

i bet you didn't see entozer's vid

Agka wrote:

i bet you didn't see entozer's vid

I did

then so it is, no excuses

Agka wrote:

A map is easier when the patterns are simpler and the note density is lower.

A map is easy when a newbie can do them.

I'd rather have a guideline to say (though i'd leave it as a tip) to not use a chord above 6 keys, personally, but hardly to make something unrankable because you have to mash all 7/8 keys.

the rule of "limiting keyamounts" it's so it makes sense, not because we hate having easy 7ks and hard 4ks on a mapset.

YES, a map will go easier when the patterns are simplier and the note density is lower. But there are limitations to a few songs - making them too easy would just be pointless. That's my meaning.

I'm not meaning that everything should be insane/insane+.

For a few songs, even if you try to make it easier, when following the rhythm of the song, it may still be so hard that beginners would just treat them as madness. An example is Nightmare in DJMAX BS- they tried very hard to make an easier mapset of the song, but just failed. They made a mapset that are partly strange to the rhythm - and YES, the mapset is still too hard for beginners!


So to make it clear, my meaning is that not to use the so-called "easy/normal rule" just for beginners, who can avoid choosing the easiest diff on a few song which is marked as "easy" but are just insane.

which is why i proposed to have at least two diffs for whatever you want to plug mania in.

Hmm, Tab - Q - W - P - [ - ] - \ works with my PS/2 keyboard from 2004. Add in Space and I can do 8K holds - heck, I can do 11K holds. >_> The default controls can't even do 5K holds on both of my home keyboards, though.

However, forcing people to change their keys to specific combinations is not user friendly. It's the complete opposite.

After thinking it over, though, I think the best solution is simply to make a tutorial explaining how to make your keyboard work for osu!mania. That Microsoft article/program makes doing so pretty easy TBH. And if you have a keyboard with a low NKRO then you can just get a cheapo one that will work without doing anything crazy. That way you guys could keep your 7/8K holds while newer players don't have to waste time trying to figure out why they can't do said holds.

...Or complain on the internet about them. You know who you are.

7 keys the same time = approved
There's no different between ranked and approved in score/ranking, but the app status tell you everything in the map means challenge, challenge to your skill and your keyboard.

woc2006 wrote:

7 keys the same time = approved
There's no different between ranked and approved in score/ranking, but the app status tell you everything in the map means challenge, challenge to your skill and your keyboard.

I think this is a perfectly acceptable solution.

Some guidelines from myself:
It's better to have both odd and even key amount diffs in a mapset to let more players have fun. like 4+5+7 or 6+7+8, but depends on the song.

Doesn't need to make less key easier than more keys. 4K insane + 7K normal is acceptable, but this makes 7K players confuse, so 4K insane + 7K normal & insane is better. In a word, avoid leaving insane a single diff and the least key.

^@ I remember peppy said that 4k Insane with 8k Easy is not wanted.
Tho it should be avoided.

Did you decide to add SV change (inherit green line) support for speed changes in custom specifically made maps? This should be done very soon so we can finally start mapping stuff to the fullest.

Approval and ranking are the same and almost nothing should be approved. The only difference between the two is that one is for "gimmick" maps. Gimmick maps being things like storyboarded games modes (technika for example), marathons, or other similar things. NOT for maps that are too hard or don't have easier difficulties or whatever.

woc2006 wrote:

Some guidelines from myself:
It's better to have both odd and even key amount diffs in a mapset to let more players have fun. like 4+5+7 or 6+7+8, but depends on the song.

Doesn't need to make less key easier than more keys. 4K insane + 7K normal is acceptable, but this makes 7K players confuse, so 4K insane + 7K normal & insane is better. In a word, avoid leaving insane a single diff and the least key.

With discussion with woc2006, I found the point is "If the hardest diff is not the most number in keys, there should be another easier diff for that key, or you should make another diff at the same difficulty level with more keys. If there are only one diff in one key number and that's not the most key number, it should not be the highest diff."

Edit: At current rule, mappers can easy break this by splitting maps into key-specific maps (e.g. 4k normal,hard,insane+7k normal+hard [illegal] -> 4k*3[legal]+7k*2[legal].) But it's very clear - that's nonsense.

that's actually a good thing anyway @ different key modes with 3x difficulties.

Loctav wrote:

^@ I remember peppy said that 4k Insane with 8k Easy is not wanted.
Tho it should be avoided.

Did you decide to add SV change (inherit green line) support for speed changes in custom specifically made maps? This should be done very soon so we can finally start mapping stuff to the fullest.

yep, i agree with peppy, but i said it's just acceptable not rankable.

Let me finish SV this weekend.

woc2006 wrote:

Let me finish SV this weekend.

Thanks, it's working great. Would be better if it can reach up to x5.0 without going through the .osu file though.

You must not edit .osu files to achieve what you want. This is unrankable (for good reasons)

legit question, why? :p

Because everything that you intend on doing must be strictly limited by what the editor can do. Aside from things that doesn't change gameplay (GridSize) or necessary slider fixes to get the last drum roll (Taiko), the .osu file should just be there to exist.

in other words, doing something like editing the .osu file for replacing sliders for holds (for osu!mania in particular) would be perfectly rankable since it wouldn't affect gameplay if you compare it to the slider counterpart?

those wrote:

Because everything that you intend on doing must be strictly limited by what the editor can do. Aside from things that doesn't change gameplay (GridSize) or necessary slider fixes to get the last drum roll (Taiko), the .osu file should just be there to exist.

though there's great limitation on speed changing so that we can not achieve what we want without editing the file.
we'll have to wait for woc2006 to see what happens.

anyway, I do think we need more effort to make speed changing perfectly supported using current green point method due to real number errors, especially when using very high bpm, causing the song offsets wrongly after each speed change. and actually the 0.1x to 10x range is SURELY NOT ENOUGH.

another suggestion, why not guiding mappers to write a widely-used-in-song BPM somewhere on song? In most siturations you'll just see 0-99999 bpm on these songs, and that's just meaningless.

There might surely be a guide on how to create smooth SV changes when the time comes.

Right now, SV changes are working like BPM changes but there are still some bugs. For example, A long note that is slowed down in the middle makes the hold look longer (and earlier), while a long note that is sped up makes it look shorter (and looks needed to be pressed in a more later time). Hopefully it will be fixed soon.

And woc needs to increase the limit of the SV change for osu!mania

Entozer wrote:

There might surely be a guide on how to create smooth SV changes when the time comes.

Right now, SV changes are working like BPM changes but there are still some bugs. For example, A long note that is slowed down in the middle makes the hold look longer (and earlier), while a long note that is sped up makes it look shorter (and looks needed to be pressed in a more later time). Hopefully it will be fixed soon.

And woc needs to increase the limit of the SV change for osu!mania

True that. . xD

and agree. . o3o

I also can't do x0.25 yet :<

Now I've lost my motivation again :/

rickyboi wrote:

I also can't do x0.25 yet :<

Now I've lost my motivation again :/

If you can't do something that you'd like to be able to do, Feature Request it. It's always worth a shot, even if you get a classic "No." post.

Do we need to force ranked mania maps so that they can be SSed by osu!topus?

If so, we can avoid some common fault or mania code bugs causing maps hard to play or even showing incorrectly.

Edit: what I found causing auto fails to get 300g includes:
(1) circles instantly following by sliders. (very, very short interval. though actually playable by players)
(2) circles that are in the sliders. (you can see that, you can play that, and of course you can't get 300g on both the circle and the slider.)
(3) super-short sliders. ( that will make the note completely invisible. also, only very,very short sliders can trigger that)

I'd like to ask about the porting chart issue. Since we already have ranked Ouendan and Taiko authentic charts, how is it different from IIDX/o2mania/DJMax etc. ?

Ouendan and Taiko charts probably doesn't mind it nor made a statement about having their charts/maps copied to another game (Random assumptions) Whereas one of those games you mentioned have mentioned about copyright issues, and so to be safe, no iidx/o2jam/djmax will be acknowledged (therefore, graveyarded)

/random assumptions

Entozer wrote:

Ouendan and Taiko charts probably doesn't mind it nor made a statement about having their charts/maps copied to another game (Random assumptions) Whereas one of those games you mentioned have mentioned about copyright issues, and so to be safe, no iidx/o2jam/djmax will be acknowledged (therefore, graveyarded)

/random assumptions

yet we can make another notechart that is totally different, that's fine.

ok let's say it this way. Copying another's chart =/= your own. Therefore, not rankable. The previous ones were the exception. Go ask peppy.

No acivity again ughh.

Entozer wrote:

Copying another's chart =/= your own.

Unless you can put the charter's name on the diff that he/she made, right?

ishimaru94 wrote:

Entozer wrote:

Copying another's chart =/= your own.

Unless you can put the charter's name on the diff that he/she made, right?

You would have to get permission from the charter to do that.

Wow. Nice update today. Does that mean we're almost ready for mania ranking?

> [woc2006] osu!mania: New mania star.
>[woc2006] Show average bpm in song label.

Also, for the average BPM, I want to know if this will allow us to use BPM changes instead of SV changes, because SV limits us to x2.0 and it looks ugly sometimes.

Entozer wrote:

SV limits us to x2.0 and it looks ugly sometimes.

What about manual editing?

Manual editing is possible, but someone said we shouldn't mess with the .osu file because it's unrankable.

BPM changes are still easier to make than SV changes to be honest.

Entozer wrote:

Manual editing is possible, but someone said we shouldn't mess with the .osu file because it's unrankable.

There are several exeptions in this rule, for editing per-level storyboard for example. I think one more exeption won't hurt.

BPM changes makes pulse in the main menu (and song select too) look too weird, so I think this should be avoided.

rickyboi wrote:

You would have to get permission from the charter to do that.

Just as I thought. .

It's sucks if the charter won't response to give permission at all. . :/

Just like in taiko speed up/slow down sections should always be readable, not gimmicky.
Just throwing that out there. U:

MMzz wrote:

not gimmicky.

BORING

There're lots of ways to do it with gimmick and is still 100% readable.

it can be gimmicky and readable, indeed

Readable means you understand it first play through. Gimmicky means that extra bit of info you should have before hand before you can read it. Otherwise, it's neither readable nor gimmicky; it's bad.

remember this IS a game anyway though, it doesn't need to be 100% 10/10 professional or else we won't get a good metacritic score. Bad would mean it's not fun. If it is, then why care?

Because as moderators we prioritize standards. If a map can be fun and good, why should it be bad?

it's not bad if it's fun

As an O2jam player, I've played a lot of maps where there's a lot of gimmicks and still FC it on first try. It's all sightreading.

Well that's what gimmicks are, as stated above.

and I don't see any good reason why you should prevent them.

If a map can be fun and good with gimmicks, why not?

And we're talking about non-retarded gimmicks here, as what rickyboi is saying.

Me neither.

Discussions, discussions. Let the one who knows how to play set the ranking criteria.

what about taking these songs which is completely gimmicky (or to say, use speeed change as its only difficulty increasing technique) into approved category as it is only fun? you know these maps are always asking players to recite the whole map.

xxbidiao wrote:

what about taking these songs which is completely gimmicky (or to say, use speeed change as its only difficulty increasing technique) into approved category as it is only fun? you know these maps are always asking players to recite the whole map.

YES, YES, YES, I was about to asking for that.
Speed change in o!m is very cool feature even if I can't read the song at first time. But we can't just throw this technique because of that. It's really fun. So thumbs up for moving such songs (diffs?) into approved category.

Players like it, anyway.

I'm not in for random speed changes.

[Dellirium] wrote:

YES, YES, YES, I was about to asking for that.
Speed change in o!m is very cool feature even if I can't read the song at first time. But we can't just throw this technique because of that. It's really fun. So thumbs up for moving such songs (diffs?) into approved category.

So throw the most drastic speed changes into the same category as the "must use modifier keys to FC" maps? I see no problem with that, since both can be classified as gimmicks. : P

yeah since its not a game like standard where you can FC most maps on first try if there are no "gimmicky" jumps

Also people talking here are kinda very good players and mappers and know what they do and just because that dont expect to be every beatmap like this anyways

Anyway, I do think common songs should not be speed-change based.
If there are no good reason for a speed change (e.g. you just want the song to be gimmicky or using that for diff increasing), that should not be a reason and the speed change should be erased. Or the song should be go into approved category.)
(Or to say, my point is that most songs should not use speed change on constant BPM period)