Agka wrote:

-You can't use BPMs to do speed effects. (because it breaks osu. not because they're stupid or whatever.)

Basically, off the top of my head.

I'd like to see 0 bpm notes, they look nice and you can map a breakcore map in a cool way, please stop restricting this game so much...

Big and Busty wrote:

I'd like to see 0 bpm notes, they look nice and you can map a breakcore map in a cool way

If this was osu! standard i would be saying "hell no", but this is osu!mania and iirc in DDR/Stepmania a 0 bpm section should make the notes freeze in place until the end of said section, and that's actually cool.

Sakura wrote:

Big and Busty wrote:

I'd like to see 0 bpm notes, they look nice and you can map a breakcore map in a cool way

If this was osu! standard i would be saying "hell no", but this is osu!mania and iirc in DDR/Stepmania a 0 bpm section should make the notes freeze in place until the end of said section, and that's actually cool.

bpm gimmicks can be VERY cool & fun when used properly, so i think at the very least they should be possible to approve, at best ranked on an insane diff

Agka wrote:

-You can't use BPMs to do speed effects. (because it breaks osu. not because they're stupid or whatever.)

BPM speed effects add more creativity to maps and allows a mapper to express his or her self in their own way.
ja'i envie de plasir looks 100000x cooler with 0 BMP effects than if it didn't have them.

I wish Taiko mappers were more creative like this... or maybe they aren't to blame and it's the rules that hold them back.

There's been a decrease in Taiko mappers because of these strict rules. Please don't let this happen to osu!mania as well. I'd hate to see it die before it ever took off.

Most fun stepmania maps are either crazy hard, swing maps, or BPM gimmicks. BPM gimmicks, even if they can only go to approved, should not be limited because it puts a lot more into the game for all difficulty levels. I might as well post an example.



This is stuff that storyboarding probably can't conventionally accomplish, but it's in the same boat as songs like Fake It. It's definitely not sightreadable, but it is still a work of art and at least deserves approved status.

I think you haven't read my stance on BPM changes.

I like them. They're the best type of gimmick to hit the universe.

It offers so much flexibility and ways of fun.

BUT OSU CAN'T HANDLE THEM.

try adjusting the offset of a song that uses bpm gimmicks in osu!, and see how the cookie goes apeshit. See how it breaks the holds.

But seriously. Osu! can't handle them. And it probably never will. So while osu! can't handle them properly, they can't. be. ranked.

It's that.

If you want the real deal, play the real deal, and leave mania to be what peppy and woc wants it to be. We can't do decisions on that.

Agka wrote:

I think you haven't read my stance on BPM changes.

I like them. They're the best type of gimmick to hit the universe.

It offers so much flexibility and ways of fun.

BUT OSU CAN'T HANDLE THEM.

try adjusting the offset of a song that uses bpm gimmicks in osu!, and see how the cookie goes apeshit. See how it breaks the holds.

But seriously. Osu! can't handle them. And it probably never will. So while osu! can't handle them properly, they can't. be. ranked.

It's that.

If you want the real deal, play the real deal, and leave mania to be what peppy and woc wants it to be. We can't do decisions on that.

It can.. please try to map something? I have a few maps with 0 - 9999 bpm, and I don't really see anything broken?

"Map something. It can."

really?

I mean, really?

Big and Busty wrote:

I have a few maps with 0 - 9999 bpm, and I don't really see anything broken?

Link ? I'm really interested in how this is done in a good way.

All slider ends must be mute.

Agka wrote:

"Map something. It can."

really?

I mean, really?

Yeah... really.
I was messing around seeing if I could get the pauses in Max Infinity to work visually in osu! and it worked like a charm.
I didn't use absolute 0 BPM, I used 0.01 and there were no problems at all.

rickyboi wrote:

Anyway I don't wanna see any rules about preventing jackhammers

to me it is like asking not to put rules about extremely stupidly retarded streams in taiko. (and those words just are dimming what I think to the maximum extent)
for approval yes as long as we can make long jackhammers that are >8bt long without breaking people's hands (do you know people who can jackhammer Freedom Dive ?), but people who can't play that speed should not be left if the map is for ranking.

Kuro wrote:

I wish Taiko mappers were more creative like this... or maybe they aren't to blame and it's the rules that hold them back.

0x sections does not exist anymore, as well as >10x, that's why I ditched my The End project. Kuri's Sebben Crudele is completely broken, now. All because this fucking stupid 0x section in some ranked map made it broken, thanks to the HD fix. :/

Charles445 wrote:

Agka wrote:

"Map something. It can."

really?

I mean, really?

Yeah... really.
I was messing around seeing if I could get the pauses in Max Infinity to work visually in osu! and it worked like a charm.
I didn't use absolute 0 BPM, I used 0.01 and there were no problems at all.

try changing your map's offset (so all red points can stay where they are right now) and/or move all of your notes at the same time (which you can select them all, but you can't drag them through the timeline)

whatever, do as you like.

i'm not up to really explain it, I honestly can't care less if you're acting stubborn and prefer doing hacky bpm changes instead of sv velocity multipliers.

You can do smooth changes too you just need to add 2 more timing sections

The bpm changes messes up your charts falling guideline. That's what's so broken about it. I'd really like it if we can just use the velocity to multiply / divide the downspeed just like Taiko.

Silynn wrote:

Shiro wrote:

If a hitsound needs to be removed, then there shouldn't be any hitobject at that spot in the first place.

I see no point in making this a rule, though.
Having too many rules limits creativity and just confuses people.
If something like this comes up in a map, it will in most (if not all) cases not fit at all and be modded out.

I think the rule is completely unnecessary, and I don't think unnecessary rules are healthy

My point is that there should not be any rule forcing mappers to use hitsounds.

Mania maps have 2 styles, one is COMPLETELY NO hitsound style ( e.g. no key sound bms) and the other is completely-set hitsound style(e.g. o2jam/djmax songs, key-sound BMS). For these songs without any hitsound, it is intended to play without any disturbance (even with osu! default hitsound). So mapper should be left freedom to have hitsounds or not on their maps.

P.S. Actually I played mania always with sound effect close to avoid disturbance of default hit sound.

rickyboi wrote:

The bpm changes messes up your charts falling guideline. That's what's so broken about it. I'd really like it if we can just use the velocity to multiply / divide the downspeed just like Taiko.

Actually, most mania maps that already exist ( actually the mania mapping style) is using BPM change.

There are no such "velocity" concept in mania mapping in other games though

Drafura wrote:

Big and Busty wrote:

I have a few maps with 0 - 9999 bpm, and I don't really see anything broken?

Link ? I'm really interested in how this is done in a good way.

I have handmad 20-65535 maps for test purpose.

It works fine.

_Gezo_ wrote:

Hmm, to start with, few ideas :

- Avoiding the use of 1-finger streams for too long. They can become frustrating to play at higher speeds and thus make the whole chart unfun.
- Maybe using pauses and stuff ? I don't know about the 0-bpm thing in osu!mania. If this is possible to do such a thing, avoiding the overuse of those things. Gimmicks, but not too much. Allowing this for non-musical parts (Gangnam Style has nothing preceeding "Oppan Gangnam Style" before the chorus if you want an example.)
- What I said above, this also applies for x2 x4 x8 x16 and stuff sections, not anyone is a hardcore StepMania player who can read gimmicks with X-mods ! The chart should be sightreadable.
- Unicity of the scrolling speed through the whole mania mapset.

You can discuss about these ideas and add some more !

1-finger streams are sometimes suitable, but in very stricted situations. And in most cases it is with some spaces like:(all in 1/4)

x_xx_xx_x_xx_xx_x_xx_xx_x_xx_xx_xxx_xx....

you may be familiar with that pattern in taiko. That's it.

Though the most concern is overusing of that, or even 1/8 streams. (like Identity II in o2jam, (there're a hand-made beatmap by entozer? I forget that) Would that kind of thing be rankable?

statementreply wrote:

Loctav wrote:

Also I'd consider disallowing all-key holds in 6k+ (hardware issues for certain keyboard users, especially USB keyboard users (ghosting))

I'd like it to be
* No 7+ objects at the same time, including hit notes, hold notes and hold note tails.

Mappers can easily make a rule break by placing 7 note like this:

1/16 _ _ _ _ X X X
0 X X X X _ _ _

(Though it is commonly used in piano songs.)


Like Bobbias said, I do think there should not be a forced difficulty setting for "normal" difficulties.
Beatmaps can have (or should have/must have, that doesn't matter) 2 or more diffs, though all of them are above "easy" level(such as lv 15 in o2jam).
Making an easy diff for a few songs are just mad, extremely for songs full of 1/4 or 1/8 beats . For example, if you try to make a lv5 difficulty for ez2dj song "Fire Storm", you would end up making a map of nonsense. These songs are hard for beginners even in catching the beats. So in these cases( maybe really rare), a so-easy diff should not be forced. example used for comparison ( I don't know whether it is suitable) is APP maps in osu! standard. They don't have easy diffs ( maybe that's the reason why they are APPed).

Please dont triple post and use the edit button next time.

xxbidiao, stop trying to convince everyone else that bpm changes work

just turn on the barline and see how very freaking broken it is. A new red point implies start of a measure for osu! at this time, which basically breaks the timelines.

Given the rhythm complexity changing offset becomes tedious.

and sorry but this isn't other rhythm games, this is osu! so while we can use other games as a guideline we can't force THEIR standards into THIS game.

Agka wrote:

xxbidiao, stop trying to convince everyone else that bpm changes work

just turn on the barline and see how very freaking broken it is. A new red point implies start of a measure for osu! at this time, which basically breaks the timelines.

Given the rhythm complexity changing offset becomes tedious.

and sorry but this isn't other rhythm games, this is osu! so while we can use other games as a guideline we can't force THEIR standards into THIS game.

It nothing about bpm changing, it's my fault that i haven't make barlines works the right way which will takes a great amount of effort.
Osu! has a different method to measure barline and it cause troubles in mania. Use green lines for speed changing may help and this feature comes later.

woc2006 wrote:

Use green lines for speed changing may help and this feature comes later.

MY GOD! FINALLY!

I assume xxbidiao is talking about this?

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?69e2vuen437p2op

And yes, I am curious. Is this kind of map rankable?

woc2006 wrote:

Agka wrote:

xxbidiao, stop trying to convince everyone else that bpm changes work

just turn on the barline and see how very freaking broken it is. A new red point implies start of a measure for osu! at this time, which basically breaks the timelines.

Given the rhythm complexity changing offset becomes tedious.

and sorry but this isn't other rhythm games, this is osu! so while we can use other games as a guideline we can't force THEIR standards into THIS game.

It nothing about bpm changing, it's my fault that i haven't make barlines works the right way which will takes a great amount of effort.
Osu! has a different method to measure barline and it cause troubles in mania. Use green lines for speed changing may help and this feature comes later.

my god woc, thanks. But that barline handling osu! has is the reason I'm voting to disallow bpm changes in favor of SV changes.

@Entozer: Nice chart, and yes if it has the bpm changes removed atm. Unless woc changes it or you replace it with sv changes if they're implemented (Yes, I saw the like, 2 effect bpm changes you used but yeah, barlines.)

Yes, I am willing to change them, as well as change the bpm sections I made in my other maps. Provided that woc really does make it to do SV changes like how a lot of people want it. And thanks.

Actually green line speed change has huge limitation, and it was said by woc2006 that red-line BPM change is only affecting barline showing now. Everything other than that is OK ,so red-line BPM change should work

if woc implements bpm changes not altering the barline or making it act correctly maybe, but even then bpm is not supposed to be used for THAT.

i'm not against using bpm changes, i'm against using them as visual effects when you can simply go ahead and use the SV changes woc is going to introduce.

seriously.

and the limitation is that it hasn't been implemented yet.

ps: all the reasons of why not use bpm changes have been stated and some weren't stated by me. so yeah.

It's in the ranking criteria that the bpm must be correct. If a song is 100bpm it won't ever be 800bpm even if you want a 8x scroll at one point. Unfortunately, the editor limits slider velocity changes from 0.5x to 2.0x, but maybe it can be implemented that the sv multiplier can have a larger range for osu!mania.

those wrote:

the editor limits slider velocity changes from 0.5x to 2.0x

changing the .osu file can extend these values from 0.1x to 10.0x

for mania it should be able to go from 0 to 4, i think. 100% notefield stops are a common fun thing in BPM gimmick files!

I created [[osu!mania Ranking Criteria]], because we already have some approved rules and having a wiki page will fasten the process of creating final version of the page.
Yay!

those wrote:

It's in the ranking criteria that the bpm must be correct. If a song is 100bpm it won't ever be 800bpm even if you want a 8x scroll at one point. Unfortunately, the editor limits slider velocity changes from 0.5x to 2.0x, but maybe it can be implemented that the sv multiplier can have a larger range for osu!mania.

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.

If SV change has the ability like 0.97551x or 21.64073x, that will make every mapper satisfied, though we need woc to take more effort

For jackhammers, I didn't found the exactly definition. My point is that it should not be restricted too much - at least, just 5 combo (which is like the situation in wiki page) in very rare cases should be allowed. If Jackhammer protection is mainly for "It's called a jackhammer because you literally have to jackhammer your keyboard with your hand to play, feeling unnatural and broken. It is also very difficult to play, requiring people to learn to vibrate the wrist." Only a *really* few jackhammers and enough space between them would be OK and abandoning use of them may make map unnatural in some cases.
So would it be better to just become a guideline in most situations? ( Or to gradually untighten this rule to just prevent jackhammers that lasts way too long(like 10~20 sec) or even a whole map?)

at least, just 5 combo (which is like the situation in wiki page)

This is just an example.

even a whole map?

You are telling this like if there wasn't exact phrase of what jackhammer is, all maps will consist between 100% jackhammers . Don't be so obsessed.

Strict rules are not needed. Telling "170 bpm 1/4 one column pattern is a jackhammer and 169 bpm are not" is pretty stupid.

Sorry for second post. Though I would like to make another post for it

How about "one-second kill"?

One-second kill is firstly widely used in O2jam to represent a period of song that is *FAR* more harder than most other part of the song that makes player to "fail in one second".

Though you all know o!m life is very easy-going, and it is really hard to perform a one-second kill here, which makes "one-second kill" not so meaningful. But these periods are still way too hard to pass without missing( or even saying, "Anyone without missing is cheating" in rare cases is proper). The problem here I want to rise is that for these insane one-second kill. Should we put any restrictions on it?

Note: one-second kill != jackhammers.

Some examples for one-second kill: (if not sepcified they are in 1/8 scale) :

1. character kill (it's like an M)

|-oo-oo-|
|-o-o-o-|
|o--o--o|
|o--o--o|
|o--o--o|
|o--o--o|
|-------|


2. one kind of slider kill ( not using 7K to prevent confusing to 7-key-at-the-same-time problem)(in this example # represents a slider part)

|----|
|###-|
|###o|
|###-|
|##-#|
|##o#|
|##-#|
|#-##|
|#o##|
|#-##|
|-###|
|o###|
|-###|
|####|

3.very-very quick notes from one side to the other and going back. (from Identity III hard style)
*This one is in 1/16 scale!*


|-o-----|
|o----o-|
|-o-----|
|--o----|
|o--o---|
|----o--|
|-----o-|
|-o----o|
|-----o-|
|----o--|
|o--o---|
|--o----|
|-o-----|
|o------|

[Dellirium] wrote:

at least, just 5 combo (which is like the situation in wiki page)

This is just an example.

even a whole map?

You are telling this like if there wasn't exact phrase of what jackhammer is, all maps will consist between 100% jackhammers . Don't be so obsessed.

Strict rules are not needed. Telling "170 bpm 1/4 one column pattern is a jackhammer and 169 bpm are not" is pretty stupid.

the whole jackhammer song in my post is of that kind of thing: a stream lasts from the beginning to the ending of the song without any break, like a few taiko maps. There are rules that prevent taiko map of that kind be ranked too

those "one second kills" you're talking about are called mashes.
and it's probably safe to say I'd rather have a guideline to tell people to avoid mashes like the plague.

edit: your third example isn't a mash. it's imho perfectly rankable.

Agka wrote:

those "one second kills" you're talking about are called mashes.
and it's probably safe to say I'd rather have a guideline to tell people to avoid mashes like the plague.

edit: your third example isn't a mash. it's imho perfectly rankable.

For the third example I had a little mod to avoid it becoming a jackhammer, though It may be harder than at least the second example above.
Guideline is really great thing! Though we may need more human effort to consider whether a period is a mash or not.

it's not that hard imho. :p

Guideline(or at least a suggestion):
-Refrain from using patterns the are to played pressing too many keys at the same moment.

Reason: Not anyone have a Blackwidow or a gaming keyboard to play the game.

But then, not all keyboards have to be specifically blackwidow or a gaming one to be able to press at least 7 keys. I can't really see how people can't press at least 6 (+1 modifier) key at once with any kind of keyboard. I've used cheap usb keyboard that costs less than $3 and I can easily press 7 keys with it. In fact all the keyboards I've used so far can be setted up to press 7 keys simultanously. No exceptions.

Unless there are somea lot of retarded keyboards I don't know of that literally limits any key combinations to 4-5 keys, there shouldn't be anything in the guideline/ranking criteria that limits the amount of keys we can press at the same moment.