For insane maps which default to 7k, would it be possible to change the lower keycounts to have denser amounts of notes? Here is an example.

The Big Black stream sections, would go from this..



To perhaps looking something like this?



As you can see, there are far more notes to worry about hitting - you would need very good coordination and skill to hit these patterns well, even if you're only playing on four columns, as opposed to hitting one at a time on 7k.

It would make 4-6k less of an 'easymode' and perhaps the score reduction could be lifted up to about 0.90x for insane maps which this takes place on, as while 7k players have more columns to focus on, 4-6k players have to worry about hitting more notes per second.

This could allow for more competition between the skilled 4, 5, and 6k players in the osu!mania community on the maps where it really counts, as well as those awesome 7k pros.

nice idea :') I'd definitely like to see this implemented.

Ok, I got your point but in the end, do you really want to play flooded maps with no sense? This first pictures show pretty nieces 3er steps combos ( one of my favors on pad ) and iin the second picture you are going to add some extra notes besides existing notes and over float the maps with jumps. I’m not sure how to pronounced it, but the fleer of the 4k game mode will fall. It is still a rhythm game and not a crashing your keyboard game ^^ And in the end, who cares about competition the 4 k mode and the 7 k mode? 4 k was originally made for pad users… and yeah I have been playing 4k for many years (also with pad (expert++), but I have been playing now osu!mania for a week and 7 / 8 k is a way more fun if you going to handle out how this works.

Edit: To say it clearly, I like your idea, but it is really hard to make good 4 k songs (and almost impossible for an algorithm) …and just putting some extra note won’t solve the problem ( well for me xD ). For a example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu0iTSWnPdY this songs is pretty hard to play ( also for keyboard ), but this map isen’t flooded with notes ^^

Woshiwobi wrote:

Ok, I got your point but in the end, do you really want to play flooded maps with no sense?

If you aren't a skilled enough 4k player, yes - you will think that it has no sense, and you won't understand why anyone would want this.

But honestly, it's not as impossible as you might think - a top tier FFR or SM player does songs about that difficulty with ease. It's actually far more enjoyable, and far more rhythmic than just having single notes. But, of course, much harder than single notes.

..And then there's Staiain.



But really, it won't make it over the top difficult, but it will make it more enjoyable and fun for the experienced players.

Woshiwobi wrote:

For a example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu0iTSWnPdY this songs is pretty hard to play ( also for keyboard ), but this map isen’t flooded with notes ^^

That song is ridiculously, RIDICULOUSLY easy. Perhaps not to quad, like seen in the video, but it's not a hard song by any circumstance.

If I understand you correctly, this future cause senseless misunderstandable notespam.

BRBP wrote:

A typical story of a pro 4k-only player.

1. Pick a song, any song
2. Place 1/1 or 1/2 double notes until the first chorus. Remember, do not use any long notes, they're boring
3. When the chorus starts fill it with either 1/4 or 1/8 stream single notes
4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 until the song ends
5. Rage at forums for not getting it ranked
6. Make a thread asking to make existing songs harder

are you stupid or what

Archangel Tirael wrote:

If I understand you correctly, this future cause senseless misunderstandable notespam.

I reiterate, anyone who is bad and can't read or hit complicated 4k patterns will not understand this feature request. You do not understand correctly.

This is perfectly within reason and perfectly possible.

BRBP wrote:

A typical story of a pro 4k-only player.

1. Pick a song, any song
2. Place 1/1 or 1/2 double notes until the first chorus. Remember, do not use any long notes, they're boring
3. When the chorus starts fill it with either 1/4 or 1/8 stream single notes
4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 until the song ends
5. Rage at forums for not getting it ranked
6. Make a thread asking to make existing songs harder

I've never seen a post this bad

Okay, so, what? I don't even get what you're trying to say with this post. Is this what you assume 4k players do to create files? Because it really isn't and you're making yourself look incredibly ignorant.

Bites wrote:

Woshiwobi wrote:

Ok, I got your point but in the end, do you really want to play flooded maps with no sense?

If you aren't a skilled enough 4k player, yes - you will think that it has no sense, and you won't understand why anyone would want this.

But honestly, it's not as impossible as you might think - a top tier FFR or SM player does songs about that difficulty with ease. It's actually far more enjoyable, and far more rhythmic than just having single notes. But, of course, much harder than single notes.

..And then there's Staiain.

Your way to improve the map make no sense ... like i mentioned before ... the rhytm will goes away .. I didnt say it isn't impossible and I would be able to play this art of difficulty, but cleary watch your postet video, are there any flooted steps? Your art of doing the songs are likes so "oh so single notes mhmm ok, im just going to add some more notes and I have got now many jumps ...", but are the jumps now necessary? on 32er streams u wont need jumps. Like in your postet video the jumps are cleary on half or full beats ...

Woshiwobi wrote:
For a example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu0iTSWnPdY this songs is pretty hard to play ( also for keyboard ), but this map isen’t flooded with notes ^^


That song is ridiculously, RIDICULOUSLY easy. Perhaps not to quad, like seen in the video, but it's not a hard song by any circumstance.

Haha ok. I'm pretty sure, you will never be able to quad this song ... as a FFR or Stepmania player u wont have the accuary to play this song at neraly 99 % ... and yeah, I just want to show you what a good making stepfile is but as it seems you didnt get my point of view ( and it was also a Padfile, means ppl are going to use their feets to play this song, like the guy in the video )



And in the end bites.. feel free to play with me at stepmaniaonline for some songs, you assume that I'm a totaly boon, because I didnt get your point of view, fine ^^

Woshiwobi wrote:

Your way to improve the map make no sense ... like i mentioned before ... the rhytm will goes away .. I didnt say it isn't impossible and I would be able to play this art of difficulty, but cleary watch your postet video, are there any flooted steps? Your art of doing the songs are likes so "oh so single notes mhmm ok, im just going to add some more notes and I have got now many jumps ...", but are the jumps now necessary? on 32er streams u wont need jumps. Like in your postet video the jumps are cleary on half or full beats ...

The video I linked was just to show you what -is- possible in stepmania, not necessarily what I want to happen with the feature.

In a lot of 'jumpstream' files, which are quite popular, there IS lots of stream with tons of jumps in it - it is necessary because it adds fun and a new level of difficulty, and also makes the file feel more full if you layer the jumps with extra instruments in the song.

Woshiwobi wrote:

Haha ok. I'm pretty sure, you will never be able to quad this song ... as a FFR or Stepmania player u wont have the accuary to play this song at neraly 99 % ...

I'm more than capable of 99%ing uber rave. Quad is almost impossible for anyone but a handful of MA gods, like Izzy, AlexDest, or as you can see - Calamist.

Woshiwobi wrote:

I just want to show you what a good making stepfile is

Uber Rave is a very old file, and it's not what I'd define as a good stepfile.

ITT people are terrible at 4k, have no idea what layering is, and should stop posting in this thread.

FissionMailed wrote:

ITT people are terrible at 4k, have no idea what layering is, and should stop posting in this thread.

ITT people that haven't played 4k in anything other than osu!mania/djmax that think they're masters of 4k and know what they're doing.

Woshiwobi wrote:

Haha ok. I'm pretty sure, you will never be able to quad this song ... as a FFR or Stepmania player u wont have the accuary to play this song at neraly 99 % ... and yeah, I just want to show you what a good making stepfile is but as it seems you didnt get my point of view ( and it was also a Padfile, means ppl are going to use their feets to play this song, like the guy in the video )

Your ignorant statements are appalling, but yet not surprising to me. You don't have the first clue about the Stepmania and FFR communities. Especially what skill level the players are in those communities when it deals with 4key or 6key.

There are plenty of people who can quad stepfiles like Uber Rave on keyboard, it already has been done many years ago.

No, you are stupid. Backpeddle away from your ignorance by pulling the "I just love watchng your reactions" card some more.

For everyone looking at Bites example picture and think it looks like a random mess, take a closer look, there is structure there.

First of all, the jumps are every other beat. This emphasizes the rhythm by putting the jumps on the stronger "on" beats and putting singles on the weaker "off" beats. Not too mention, if there is an instrument that's only played on the on beat, the extra note from the jump acknowledges that.

Also notice how none of the notes in the example create forced or hidden jacks, the next note/jump only contains note(s) in the lane that weren't in the same lane as the previous note/jump. This ensures still flowy and less awkwardness.

Many 4K "mappers" from other 4K gaming communities are good at "layering" in jumps into a stream when "mapping", it's nothing new, it's an art that many 4K players have mastered already.

this thread

Bites wrote:

I reiterate, anyone who is bad and can't read or hit complicated 4k patterns will not understand this feature request. You do not understand correctly.

Okay. 80 lvl in DMTR. 3 years of DJMAX... I bad in 4k. LOL! I'm talking about the fact that the charts may lose the logic in this case. For example, in the place where there was one note and, therefore, the author maps wanted at this moment was only one hitsound, will play two notes, thereby breaking the original idea of ​​the author on the sound of this song, and this extra audio will break all logic music. Sorry for Google Translate.

Archangel Tirael.

My dear the songs as they are converted already aren't what the author intended.

Support. Also, there are people that thinks that Osu!Mania 4K is a foolish copy of SM/DDR/ETC?

Man, take a minianalyze to mania: 4K 5K 6K 7K 8K... You don't find the link between the game mode and the name?

Or the point that this is based of DJMAX-O2Jam-Beatmania IIDX and so on? Oh! are you getting the point of it right now?

I mean, BeatMania, Osu!Mania, hey... theyre pretty similar... oh!, yeah!... it's because of mania is just a copy of beatmania and other beatgames!

Isn't a foolish DDR... so, don't try to play with a dancepad or that... for that you can play SM/DDRAC/Etc...

This is a BeatGame, not a DanceGame.

So, you'll have to face the facts... and accept that in a while there'll be a bunch of maps that you don't like or see pointless because of you are dancing them... Beatgames was made for playing with fingers.

Pretty support this... Adding a star...

I disagree. Lowering the keycount shouldn't make it harder. That's counter intuitive. All maps should have the same note density. Spamming notes is bad, and although I may not understand what you're referring about, and that video had way too many keypresses in it to begin with/did not match the music at all, so neither of those points I understand. Just because you like note spam, doesn't mean note spam is a good thing and everyone should have to deal with it.

Furthermore, osu is much more random. You're just asking the game to cluster fuck 1/4th double and triple presses all over the screen. There would be no pattern and it would be a mess of unintuitive patterns.

Linking videos from a game to prove a point in a different game. Logic.
We here at osu! like to keep things sensible. Just because it's possible does not mean it's going to happen. Do you have ANY idea what all of our ranked maps would be like if we just based things off being "possible"? (And this counts for all game modes.) osu! is not like stepmania/O2jam/etc where there is no real criteria in their maps/charts/whateveryouwanttocallthem.

The only case I can see this even being proper would be on maps like The Big Black because they are actually difficult on standard mode. But as far as most ranked maps this would be pretty stupid as most aren't hard on standard. (These are being converted so they should be on a comparative level of difficulty to the actual osu! map.)

Long story short. If you want your "dense" gameplay you're playing the wrong game.

I would honestly like to see this actually, but to a certain extent. What staiain was playing is overkill imo, but if a pro player would like to map something like that, be my guest. Obviously osu!mania should not auto-generate something like that. I'm assuming making an algorithm for this tho is not that easy to do, but if you could add note density to strong beats, for example, it would make the maps more interesting. Adding note density randomly is just bad. osu!mania actually kinda does that already sometimes, which is annoying.

I'm not the best 4k player, but I've had quite some experience with it.

@MMzz: osu!mania is a really different type of game than our other modes. I still agree there should be sense in what we do in this new mode, but to an extent, we should be allowed to break "certain barriers of sense" that we could not in other modes. As I said, something like what staiain did is just overkill, but that isn't what this request is asking for.

winber1 wrote:

@MMzz: osu!mania is a really different type of game than our other modes. I still agree there should be sense in what we do in this new mode, but to an extent, we should be allowed to break "certain barriers of sense" that we could not in other modes. As I said, something like what staiain did is just overkill, but that isn't what this request is asking for.

I know it's overkill and not what they are asking for. I've played stepmania before, I know what they want.

BRBP wrote:

^ This thread isn't about the difficult either, all they want is a way to get #1 rank against 7k players.

Unless the map was made FOR 4k, people who play 7k should generally be higher on the rankings list imo. Anything amount of keys that isn't the original amount should have a decreasing multiplier.

MMzz wrote:

Linking videos from a game to prove a point in a different game. Logic. osu! is not like stepmania/O2jam/etc where there is no real criteria in their maps/charts/whateveryouwanttocallthem.
Long story short. If you want your "dense" gameplay you're playing the wrong game.

It's a reference. An analogy. Nobody is calling osu!mania the exact same that those other games.
It's a valid argumentation technique.

Denying "dense" gameplay is basically denying the pros. The people who love the game the most.

Implying I don't 7k.

For that matter, I play 8k anyway.

I should be looking down on you.

Those are in fact easy, old songs that have little to no quality- they're merely classics of their time like marisa is to osu!.

the latest maps are harder and make a hell of a lot more sense, and the "mapping" of those charts has already been mastered- years ago.

Okay, yeah, it was a bad idea to post staiain's Renai Circulation as an example - it wasn't meant to represent what I wanted at all, but it was meant to prove that this sort of density in such a song as big black would not be as difficult as it's made out to be.

Regardless, there ARE layering and patterning rules which are followed very strictly on a lot of GOOD stepmania songs. Take a look at 'Zombie Sunset':



Even though it looks like it might be a big mess of gibberish placement, there is a lot of attention to detail and the song put into the patterning, and it plays very very well.

Again, it might be difficult to achieve this sort of standard that's been set with a completely automatic system - that's not something I can really change, unfortunately. ):

^ that
i'm pretty sure it has something to do with balance of notes between the left and right half. Some songs translate to a spammed mess which have parts that you need to finish with one hand.

JeMhUnTeR wrote:

^ that
i'm pretty sure it has something to do with balance of notes between the left and right half. Some songs translate to a spammed mess which have parts that you need to finish with one hand.

Freedom Dive.

Chipscape.

They're both difficult on 4k because so many of the patterns convert to one handed trills.

Uhm there was hanyuu with a some other screaming voice in the video x_x

I have allready contacted woc weeks before about this mainly because of the sliders in mania mode since there are so many in osu songs and they are just boring to play. Well he said there were no more plans on changing the auto generating. Also about the awkward parts of balance where you have to press alot with just one hand it happens in almost every 2nd or 3rd song i played that there are points in the song that are just so awekward to play.. on the other side a randomize mod will do the same and create even more harder pattern. woc said it happens sometimes and i should avoid those songs for now but i still thought i play them for practice. The autogenerate is long ago completed and the ranking for mania allready went through the test and is complete now so i think you guys should give up on hoping anything will change. Think about it like the taiko mode where the autogenerated songs are either 1 too awkward to play on patterns (too much finish) and 2 too easy (too less density in notes and dk change). It all looks to much the same to me if i compare those two modes. In the future the mania song submission will be working and the same as in taiko there will be mania specific maps and even authentic maps that are alot more to the game mode and alot harder. Making the autogenerated alot harder is bad for new players when they first start playing and learning the game so they can play the auto maps that are easier. I know its abit boring when there is not much choice to play in osu yet but i think we should just wait and it will hopefully get alot better, like taiko mode has specific difficultys on almost every beatmap now i hope this will happen for mania too. Just give some time and wait since its afterall all new

MMzz wrote:

osu! is not like stepmania/O2jam/etc where there is no real criteria in their maps/charts/whateveryouwanttocallthem.

This made my day, you obviously haven't played any packs made by communities like ffr, or lack skills to comprehend the layering and actually play the charts themselves if you say that.

On topic, converter could be denser, since most of charts don't make much sense already (like notes going to no sounds in the song - yeah I know it's negated by hitsounds in game), which would disqualify them from equivalents of "ranking" in other rhythm games. Seeing how the community looks down on anything that isn't 7k, however... this is just more of unnecessary work.

Oh, and that video of renai circulation someone posted, that is by NO MEANS a quality chart, it is something we call a dumpfile, basically made for those of need for sheer keysmashing and not having anything to do with the song itself (rhythm). I don't think it should be relevant to this topic.