Hello! I think the current rule for 1/3rd patterns in futsuus is too harsh, and repetitive.

The current rule is
“ If a 1/3 pattern is used, the patterns must stay simplistic and be followed by a rest moment. Finisher notes must not be used in patterns as such.”

and the current guideline is

“ 1/3 patterns should not be longer than two notes. Anything longer is very situational and usually too complex for newer players. Patterns like these should be followed by a rest moment.”

I think these perform nearly the same function, and so I propose to rework the rule to instead say the following:

If a 1/3 pattern is used, the patterns must stay simplistic and not include finisher notes.

Because while I think finishers notes should never be used in 1/3rd patterns at this level, I think certain song structures might not allow an immediate rest moment after a simple 1/3rd pattern. This is why I think rest moments are better suited as a guideline, rather than a rule that must never be broken. There are certain cases where you might want a single 1/1 note after a 1/3rd pattern, but this isnt currently allowed.



My updated proposed rule:

If a 1/3 pattern is used, the patterns must stay simplistic. Finisher notes must not be used in patterns as such.

My updated proposed guideline:

1/3 patterns should not be longer than two notes. Anything longer is very situational and usually too complex for newer players. Patterns like these should be followed by a rest moment within 2/1 and not contain any 1/2 or faster patterns within that time.

Support

lgtm

what clayton? I dont understand

looks good to me

Yea, I agree!

I agree with the main idea of this proposal. It's true that in some certain cases, 1/3 fits the music with the 1/1 later instead of letting it suddenly blanked. Especially for the swing song that the main rhythm of the song is 1/3.

Somehow, I need to disagree with the current wording. The current proposal can lead to this kind of pattern in Futsuu difficulty:


I don't think that the audience of this difficulty level can handle consecutive 1/3 patterns like the above picture as 1/3 demands a lot of stamina than 1/2 did and especially consider that Futsuu's regular rhythm is 1/1 and 1/2. With the current wording, it makes the pattern above become possible for Futsuu difficulty and even lasts for 16/1-20/1 in maximum.

So, I suggest this wording instead. (My wording is not good, could be changed later)
If a 1/3 pattern is used, the patterns must stay simplistic and not include finisher notes. Patterns like these can't be used consecutively.

With this wording, 1/3 followed by 1/1 is possible but prohibited the pattern like the above picture.

While I agree that the condition for rest moments is repeated in the related rule and guideline, I do not think that it is too harsh as 1/3 is objectively faster and more complicated than 1/2. As Futsuu is basically a difficulty level to introduce 1/2 patterning to newer players, if the rule is changed as proposed, continuous mapping of 1/1 + 1/2 patterns after 1/3 pattern without an immediate 2/1 break will result, which could be deemed too demanding and damage the spread balance with Kantan.

@Tyis @Nardo

Mapping such patterns as in tyis screenshot would require a huge explanation to justify the guideline breach, making it pretty much not viable to be mapped that way

After some discussions in the BN server, I think the rule and guideline in question could be revised as follows to remove repeated wordings while providing slight flexibility after the use of a 1/3 doublet:

• Rule:

1. If a 1/3 pattern is used, the patterns must stay simplistic and be followed by a rest moment immediately or 1/1 after. Finisher notes must not be used in patterns as such.

• Guideline:

1. 1/3 patterns should not be longer than two notes. Anything longer is very situational and usually too complex for newer players. They should be avoided in conjunction with other patterns of this nature.

Agreed with nardo!

Yep!

I agree with Nardo's wording here. This will make a case like 1/3 pattern followed by a single note 1/1 become possible but meanwhile against the pattern like 1/3 pattern followed by a decent amount of 1/2 pattern - which it's quite dense for the audience at this level as 1/3 pattern is faster than usual Futsuu rhythm.

I still think the rest moment should be left to guidelines and the BN’s discretion. Nardo’s rule excludes a possible rhythm choice after a 1/3rd doublet. a single 3/2 note. This would be 100% unrankable unless its moved to a guideline, even though its quite a playable rhythm.

I think it should either be a guideline, or how soon the rest moment should be should be slightly more lenient, to 2/1 or 4/1. I think 4/1 might make sense, so that it’ll be a full measure on most songs. If not, 2/1 should be the bare minimum. So that rhythm like a single 3/2 or 4/3 note after a simple 1/3rd doublet would still be allowed.

I think the idea of consecutive 1/3rd doublets for 16/1 is absurd, and BNs should and have been able to tell thats unacceptable.

If we don’t make the futsuu ruling slightly more lenient, spreads on songs that exclusively follow 1/3 will continue to be messed up. Katans will be entirely 1/1 and 2/1, futsuus will be 1/1 and super occasional 1/3rd doublets followed by rest moments, and muzukashiis will be 1/1 and complex 1/3rd quads without rest moments. There is a clear gap between the futsuu and muzukashii in that case imo.

1/2nd patterns can be up to 7 notes long in a futsuu without a rest moment, why can’t 1/3rd patterns be single colored doublets followed by two 1/1 notes?
I don’t think anyone is crazy enough to map 1/2 and 1/3rd mixed streams in a futsu. If they are, an addition could be made barring that. For songs that are exclusively snapped to 1/3rd, futsuus should be able to represent the song without forcing a terrible spread.

Nardo’s addition of

They should be avoided in conjunction with other patterns of this nature.

is unnecessary, because it’d be impossible to have that pattern within 1/1 without breaking the rule.


I’ve appended my updated proposals to the original post.

Basically, I think a guideline > a rule because it can account for edge cases, and rest moments should happen either 2/1 to a full measure afterwards to also cover edge cases. I think it makes more musical sense to have the rest moment within a measure, that way it can cleanly fit within the song. No 1/2 patterns should be used within the time between the 1/3rd pattern and the rest moment.

cool
i agree

Not much to add here but I agree with tata's post above, forcing a break right after a 1/3 pattern or very shortly after as a rule might become unhealthy in certain scenarios (like a 3/2 note after the 1/3 double, like tata mentioned as well).

Generally the proposal at hand would open up the accessibility to 1/3 based songs for mappers, as the leeway added can help with the possibilities you have for rhythm choices, as well as spread.

As for the general difficulty for 1/3 based futsuus, I think we should aim to get people around that skill level to test different versions (something like a 1/3+1/1+1/3+1/1 pattern for example for higher strain, or multi-colored 1/3 doubles with breaks after to test limits) and observe what they can and cannot handle in terms of stamina, reading, and complexity.

Since spreads can indeed turn out wonky, allowing multi-colored 1/3 doubles in futsuus may sound like it's overshooting, I do believe it is at least something to consider, given what tata said about spread issues. 1/2 chains of up to 7 notes can be rankable as a multi-colored pattern (although it should be simple), so why should we not at least give this a shot? The same applies go kantans, where 1/2 are allowed as long as they are mono-colored, so the same could be tried with 1/3.

A spread could look as follows:

Kantan: 1/1, 2/1 and very sparse usage of an 1/3 double, preferably at the most intense spot, followed by a preferably immediate rest moment.

Futsuu: 1/1, 1/2 (if the song allows for that), 1/3 doubles can be used more often, but should still be placed with caution. A multi-colored double may be found if the song really calls for it.

Muzukashii: more frequent usage of 1/3 patterns, up to quadruples, with color switches sometimes built in. May happen more frequently on doubles, but should be treated cautiously on quads.

My 2 cents on this matter. I would love to see a shift into the direction tata is proposing the RC to aim towards.

I agree with Mr. Tat

I was asked to give feedback on the matter, and my only concern is the fact that songs might not always allow for a certain amount of consecutive thirds not to be exceeded. Let's say I was to create a spread for melt-banana's the hive (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsVH9CqrTeA), leading up to every kiai and leading out of the song there are 4 1/3 notes that I think are absolutely crucial to at least be stressed in a futsuu, let alone in a muzukashii.

Based on this, I think having a hard cap at 2 third notes in a futsuu should be avoided and perhaps extended to 3 notes to allow for an easier bending of the guideline whereever necessary. I think a marker such as "unless the song does not allow for a limitation" or something alonge those lines could help with potential ambiguity.

Otherwise I agree to keep the the definition of the rule proposed by Nardo.

... allow for an easier bending of the guideline whereever necessary

... Otherwise I agree to keep the the definition of the rule proposed by Nardo.

Nardo’s definition is a rule though. An unbreakable rule. I think what you’ve described is a guideline, which is what I’ve proposed.

I feel that my proposal more closely follows your statement. Having 2/1 before the rest moment, and having it as a guideline which is open to adjustment in specific cases like you described.

good