Hello! I think the current rule for 1/3rd patterns in futsuus is too harsh, and repetitive.

The current rule is
“ If a 1/3 pattern is used, the patterns must stay simplistic and be followed by a rest moment. Finisher notes must not be used in patterns as such.”

and the current guideline is

“ 1/3 patterns should not be longer than two notes. Anything longer is very situational and usually too complex for newer players. Patterns like these should be followed by a rest moment.”

I think these perform nearly the same function, and so I propose to rework the rule to instead say the following:

If a 1/3 pattern is used, the patterns must stay simplistic and not include finisher notes.

Because while I think finishers notes should never be used in 1/3rd patterns at this level, I think certain song structures might not allow an immediate rest moment after a simple 1/3rd pattern. This is why I think rest moments are better suited as a guideline, rather than a rule that must never be broken. There are certain cases where you might want a single 1/1 note after a 1/3rd pattern, but this isnt currently allowed.



My updated proposed rule:

If a 1/3 pattern is used, the patterns must stay simplistic. Finisher notes must not be used in patterns as such.

My updated proposed guideline:

1/3 patterns should not be longer than two notes. Anything longer is very situational and usually too complex for newer players. Patterns like these should be followed by a rest moment within 2/1 and not contain any 1/2 or faster patterns within that time.

Support

lgtm

what clayton? I dont understand

looks good to me

Yea, I agree!

I agree with the main idea of this proposal. It's true that in some certain cases, 1/3 fits the music with the 1/1 later instead of letting it suddenly blanked. Especially for the swing song that the main rhythm of the song is 1/3.

Somehow, I need to disagree with the current wording. The current proposal can lead to this kind of pattern in Futsuu difficulty:


I don't think that the audience of this difficulty level can handle consecutive 1/3 patterns like the above picture as 1/3 demands a lot of stamina than 1/2 did and especially consider that Futsuu's regular rhythm is 1/1 and 1/2. With the current wording, it makes the pattern above become possible for Futsuu difficulty and even lasts for 16/1-20/1 in maximum.

So, I suggest this wording instead. (My wording is not good, could be changed later)
If a 1/3 pattern is used, the patterns must stay simplistic and not include finisher notes. Patterns like these can't be used consecutively.

With this wording, 1/3 followed by 1/1 is possible but prohibited the pattern like the above picture.

While I agree that the condition for rest moments is repeated in the related rule and guideline, I do not think that it is too harsh as 1/3 is objectively faster and more complicated than 1/2. As Futsuu is basically a difficulty level to introduce 1/2 patterning to newer players, if the rule is changed as proposed, continuous mapping of 1/1 + 1/2 patterns after 1/3 pattern without an immediate 2/1 break will result, which could be deemed too demanding and damage the spread balance with Kantan.

@Tyis @Nardo

Mapping such patterns as in tyis screenshot would require a huge explanation to justify the guideline breach, making it pretty much not viable to be mapped that way

After some discussions in the BN server, I think the rule and guideline in question could be revised as follows to remove repeated wordings while providing slight flexibility after the use of a 1/3 doublet:

• Rule:

1. If a 1/3 pattern is used, the patterns must stay simplistic and be followed by a rest moment immediately or 1/1 after. Finisher notes must not be used in patterns as such.

• Guideline:

1. 1/3 patterns should not be longer than two notes. Anything longer is very situational and usually too complex for newer players. They should be avoided in conjunction with other patterns of this nature.

Agreed with nardo!

Yep!

I agree with Nardo's wording here. This will make a case like 1/3 pattern followed by a single note 1/1 become possible but meanwhile against the pattern like 1/3 pattern followed by a decent amount of 1/2 pattern - which it's quite dense for the audience at this level as 1/3 pattern is faster than usual Futsuu rhythm.

I still think the rest moment should be left to guidelines and the BN’s discretion. Nardo’s rule excludes a possible rhythm choice after a 1/3rd doublet. a single 3/2 note. This would be 100% unrankable unless its moved to a guideline, even though its quite a playable rhythm.

I think it should either be a guideline, or how soon the rest moment should be should be slightly more lenient, to 2/1 or 4/1. I think 4/1 might make sense, so that it’ll be a full measure on most songs. If not, 2/1 should be the bare minimum. So that rhythm like a single 3/2 or 4/3 note after a simple 1/3rd doublet would still be allowed.

I think the idea of consecutive 1/3rd doublets for 16/1 is absurd, and BNs should and have been able to tell thats unacceptable.

If we don’t make the futsuu ruling slightly more lenient, spreads on songs that exclusively follow 1/3 will continue to be messed up. Katans will be entirely 1/1 and 2/1, futsuus will be 1/1 and super occasional 1/3rd doublets followed by rest moments, and muzukashiis will be 1/1 and complex 1/3rd quads without rest moments. There is a clear gap between the futsuu and muzukashii in that case imo.

1/2nd patterns can be up to 7 notes long in a futsuu without a rest moment, why can’t 1/3rd patterns be single colored doublets followed by two 1/1 notes?
I don’t think anyone is crazy enough to map 1/2 and 1/3rd mixed streams in a futsu. If they are, an addition could be made barring that. For songs that are exclusively snapped to 1/3rd, futsuus should be able to represent the song without forcing a terrible spread.

Nardo’s addition of

They should be avoided in conjunction with other patterns of this nature.

is unnecessary, because it’d be impossible to have that pattern within 1/1 without breaking the rule.


I’ve appended my updated proposals to the original post.

Basically, I think a guideline > a rule because it can account for edge cases, and rest moments should happen either 2/1 to a full measure afterwards to also cover edge cases. I think it makes more musical sense to have the rest moment within a measure, that way it can cleanly fit within the song. No 1/2 patterns should be used within the time between the 1/3rd pattern and the rest moment.

cool
i agree

Not much to add here but I agree with tata's post above, forcing a break right after a 1/3 pattern or very shortly after as a rule might become unhealthy in certain scenarios (like a 3/2 note after the 1/3 double, like tata mentioned as well).

Generally the proposal at hand would open up the accessibility to 1/3 based songs for mappers, as the leeway added can help with the possibilities you have for rhythm choices, as well as spread.

As for the general difficulty for 1/3 based futsuus, I think we should aim to get people around that skill level to test different versions (something like a 1/3+1/1+1/3+1/1 pattern for example for higher strain, or multi-colored 1/3 doubles with breaks after to test limits) and observe what they can and cannot handle in terms of stamina, reading, and complexity.

Since spreads can indeed turn out wonky, allowing multi-colored 1/3 doubles in futsuus may sound like it's overshooting, I do believe it is at least something to consider, given what tata said about spread issues. 1/2 chains of up to 7 notes can be rankable as a multi-colored pattern (although it should be simple), so why should we not at least give this a shot? The same applies go kantans, where 1/2 are allowed as long as they are mono-colored, so the same could be tried with 1/3.

A spread could look as follows:

Kantan: 1/1, 2/1 and very sparse usage of an 1/3 double, preferably at the most intense spot, followed by a preferably immediate rest moment.

Futsuu: 1/1, 1/2 (if the song allows for that), 1/3 doubles can be used more often, but should still be placed with caution. A multi-colored double may be found if the song really calls for it.

Muzukashii: more frequent usage of 1/3 patterns, up to quadruples, with color switches sometimes built in. May happen more frequently on doubles, but should be treated cautiously on quads.

My 2 cents on this matter. I would love to see a shift into the direction tata is proposing the RC to aim towards.

I agree with Mr. Tat

I was asked to give feedback on the matter, and my only concern is the fact that songs might not always allow for a certain amount of consecutive thirds not to be exceeded. Let's say I was to create a spread for melt-banana's the hive (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsVH9CqrTeA), leading up to every kiai and leading out of the song there are 4 1/3 notes that I think are absolutely crucial to at least be stressed in a futsuu, let alone in a muzukashii.

Based on this, I think having a hard cap at 2 third notes in a futsuu should be avoided and perhaps extended to 3 notes to allow for an easier bending of the guideline whereever necessary. I think a marker such as "unless the song does not allow for a limitation" or something alonge those lines could help with potential ambiguity.

Otherwise I agree to keep the the definition of the rule proposed by Nardo.

... allow for an easier bending of the guideline whereever necessary

... Otherwise I agree to keep the the definition of the rule proposed by Nardo.

Nardo’s definition is a rule though. An unbreakable rule. I think what you’ve described is a guideline, which is what I’ve proposed.

I feel that my proposal more closely follows your statement. Having 2/1 before the rest moment, and having it as a guideline which is open to adjustment in specific cases like you described.

good

I think tyistiana and nardo’s points are somewhat valid, so thats why I included the provision in my proposed guideline that 1/2 patterns shouldn’t be used before the rest moments after 1/3rd. I agree that it’s likely too situational and difficult for futsuu level players to handle two snapping types in such close proximity.

This should dispel fears of 1/2 and 1/3 mixed streams, as tyistiana and nardo have described. This is my response to their feedback.

agree with what nardo proposed. your proposal needs some wording (as tyistiana said) but otherwise that's good! 🥴👉👈

I’d argue that my current wording perfectly addresses tyistiana’s issue of repetitive 1/3rd for multiple beats. The maximum number of doublets before a rest moment allowed in my proposal would be 2-3 doublets, not 16 to 20 as described by tyistiana. 2-3 doublets would be rare as well


I think that nardo’s proposed rule is too restrictive, and will block creativity. Mappers want to be able to use more than two single rhythms, but thats all nardo’s rule allows for: a 1/3rd doublet followed by a 1/1 note, and a 1/3rd doublet followed by a rest moment. I think those two options are quite limiting. If his proposal is passed, I think it will negatively affect all future futsuu maps for songs which mainly follow a 1/3rd rhythm.

My proposal will allow up to 7 common rhythm choices, and the potential for more edge cases because its a guideline, not a rule.

Its a fact that 7 is more than 2. The mapper should be allowed to make choices that will best represent their song and not be limited by strict rules.

Rules should be put in place for when there is nearly/absolutely no case where breaking the rule will improve the quality of the map. This isn’t the case with nardo’s proposal.

I think you might underestimate how hard or unexpected 1/3 rhythms are for futsuu players, tata, as many would probably try to singletap patterns like these. this usually proves very challenging depending on the bpm, especially if its unexpected. it would also likely lead to acc drops/misses. That being said, i cant even see a scenario where using only 2 1/3 notes followed by a 1/1 would be practical.. most songs have an abundance of 1/3 rhythms in a row, which still makes rhythm construction difficult to actually use the purple ticks even if we have this in place. Im not sure where to go with this proposal, but i think any more than like 3 1/3 doubles in conjunction with eachother is too much. and any amount more than 1 is likely too much unless the player is introduced to it gradually.

sorry if my wording is bad im tired

I think where to go with the proposal is easy. Make a reasonable restriction, and make it a guideline not a rule.

My proposal isn’t forcing or encouraging people to use multiple doublets in a row, its just leaving that decision in the hands of mappers and nominators.

If for the mapper decides to represent the music with a rhythm like
(rest moment) (dd) k (dd) (rest moment)

or
(kk) d d (rest moment)
where the notes in parentheses are 1/3rd notes, they should have option to. They shouldn’t be forced to only two rhythm options because of a rule.

If there are cases where using a rhythm that would break nardo’s rule results in better representing the song for the difficulty level(which there is), it shouldn’t be a rule.

as many would probably try to singletap patterns like these.

Won’t they try and singletap 1/2 patterns to? How is a single color 1/3 doublet followed shortly by a rest moment harder than a 7 note long multicolor 1/2 pattern without a rest moment?

but i think any more than like 3 1/3 doubles in conjunction

my proposal disallows that.

any amount more than 1 is likely too much unless the player is introduced to it gradually.

Thats exactly what I mean. You mentioned a case where more than one doublet would be feasible. Which is a case that’d be strictly not allowed under nardo’s rule. The mapper should have the opportunity to do what you’ve described, not be forced into an unrankable situation.

i agree that this should be flexible, yes. perhaps this entire thing should stay a guideline like you suggested originally tata

I almost agree, but the current proposal's wording can still make the scenario like this happened according to the current wording:


The wording of the guideline "Patterns like these should be followed by a rest moment within 2/1 and not contain any 1/2 patterns within that time." didn't discourage the usage of 1/3 pattern which is even faster than 1/2. So, I suggest this kind of wording instead.

osu!taiko Ranking Criteria - Futsuu guidelines wrote:

1/3 patterns should not be longer than two notes. Anything longer is very situational and usually too complex for newer players. Patterns like these should be followed by a rest moment within 2/1 and not contain any pattern that is 1/2 or faster within that time.

How does that sound?

@Tyis, i would even suggest rewording to:

"

1/3 patterns should not be longer than two notes. Anything longer is very situational and usually too complex for newer players. Patterns like these should be followed by a rest moment within 2/1 and using other strenuous patterns around them should be avoided.

"

I deliberately avoided using any fixed value of 1/2 to make this guideline easier scaleable to different BPMs, as well as to enable the BNs checking these maps to apply reasonable judgement to the map without blindly following the limit of 1/2.

I dearly hope any BN has enough brains to interpret the above proposed guideline reasonably.

That's sounds fair. I agree with it!

I specifically stated 1/2 because I think 1/2 and 1/3rd being mixed would be unfair to the player, but I wanted to leave it open for the super occasional

1/3rd doublet 1/1 1/3rd doublet (rest moment)
rhythm.

I suppose I could use nepuri’s wording though.

tatatat wrote:

My updated proposed rule:

If a 1/3 pattern is used, the patterns must stay simplistic and not include finisher notes.

My updated proposed guideline:

1/3 patterns should not be longer than two notes. Anything longer is very situational and usually too complex for newer players. Patterns like these should be followed by a rest moment within 2/1 and not contain any strenuous patterns within that time.

if this is up to date, is there any opposition to changing it on the wiki?

that is up to date, yes

After reading the further discussion above, I do agree that my proposed rule is still a bit harsh regarding rest moment placement, so "If a 1/3 pattern is used, the patterns must stay simplistic and not include finisher notes." would be more lenient as revised rule. However, for standardization's sake, I think the rule could be rephrased as:

• Rule

1. If a 1/3 pattern is used, the patterns must stay simplistic. Finisher notes must not be used in patterns as such.

to enhance visualization and format consistency. Meanwhile, I have the following suggestion about the guideline:

• Guideline

1. 1/3 patterns should not be longer than two notes. Anything longer is very situational and usually too complex for newer players. Patterns like these should be followed by a rest moment within 2/1 and should be avoided in conjunction with other patterns that is 1/2 or faster.

It is rather hard to define strenuous as it may be subjective depending on different mappers. Therefore, I actually think that Tyistiana's wording "1/2 or faster" is more accurate and objective to prevent unnecessary misinterpretation.

I’ve rewritten the proposals to implement your suggestions

Well, had some discussions and thoughts over this, nardo's recent post seems like the way to go since the only hard pattern possible is 1/2 anyways.

done