1. Current fall speeds are an (unknown) multiplication of the songs bpm.
2. Osu!standard uses an approach rate to determine the speed at which notes appear/disappear.
3. Changing songs with a large change in BPM requires re-calibrating of your falling speed. This requires the player to stop and change the speed (increasing play count or suffering accuracy loss).
4. Songs with variable speeds with the current formula produce insane falling speed changes.
5. 1 speed cant be used effectively with all songs.

1. Delta Max [Outdated] - 270/47.115
2. Strange Program [Tag] - 400/100
3. Seal - Kiss From a Rose [Hard] - 245/59.486
4. Big Black - 450

Harappy wrote:

osu!mania is osu!mania, not <Game Name> v2.

Bobbias wrote:

I would like if there was a way to set a constant speed where the song BPM had no effect on the scroll speed, but other than that, I think the current speed settings are fine.

I play on speed 15 or 16 for 150 BPM songs, and if the BPM is lower, I will raise my speed, and if the BPM is higher, I will lower my speed. 300 BPM is comfortable at speed 8 for me, for example.

I do have problems with songs that have a huge range in BPM changes, such as wac - Waltz No. 17 in G minor, "Waltz of the big dogs", but that is more because I'm absolutely terrible at reading slow scroll speeds (I have to play that on about speed 10-12 or possibly lower, and the slower parts are too slow for me to read well). But there aren't too many maps with a big enough range in BPM to be a problem.

MillhioreF wrote:

It's similar, but not the same - the other thread talks about fall speed multipliers, this thread talks about changing the calculations so the original fall speed takes AR and SV into account instead of BPM (just like how Taiko does.)

I'm removing the duplicate tag, but I'd suggest that the OP changes the thread title to something like "Have osu!mania fall speed account for AR and SV" or something, because it IS almost exactly the same name as the other thread, and it's easily mistaken as a duplicate.

Archangel Tirael wrote:

No support. It's brokes mania gameplay. I never see, for example, AR and SV in beatmania or DJMAX.

There wrote:

Just like guitar hero, if the song is being played on normal then the approach rate is lower than expert(AR). Not to mention these will help add "DDR-esque" speed changes to converted maps WITHOUT modifying the BPM/beat.

Bobbias wrote:

I'm not surprised that very few people here would agree with C speeds, and it's not something I'm terribly concerned about.

Part of the reason I'm more or less fine with how things are is that you have a wide range of speeds available. I don't know how high the current settings allow you to go, but I think that for a BPM of say, 80, you can adjust up to 20+ if you are comfortable at those speeds, and yet for something with an extremely high BPM you can drop all the way down to 1 if you want. This gives a much wider range of speeds than a set selection of multipliers. With this setup, it's possible to keep your scroll rate relatively close to the same value by adjusting in smaller increments.

As an example of where multiplier speeds would be annoying, take the difference between 150 BPM and 160 BPM. At a multiplier of 4x 150 BPM becomes 600. If 600 is your ideal speed, and you wish to play a 160 BPM song at as close to that speed as possible, you are stuck with either selecting 4x for an effective rate of 640, or 3.5x at an effective speed of 560. If you are like me, and small deviations from your ideal speed can cause large differences in your score, this can be a big problem. And it was, since o2jam used this system. There were many songs with BPMs that were not comfortable at any of the available speed multipliers. Your math does little to change this particular problem, since the effective fall rate may still lie at points where the multipliers cannot bring you close enough to your ideal rate. This problem becomes even more pronounced at higher BPMs, where the difference between a multiplier of 2x and 2.5x can be very large. At 400 BPM (effective rate after your math) the difference between 2x and 2.5x is the difference between falling at 800 BPM and 1000 BPM.

As a side note, I played C800 and C700 for nearly all of the 6 years I spent playing stepmania. I played o2jam songs at an effective fall rate of between 600 and 750 (150 BPM songs at either 4x when I started, or 5x after I trained myself to read 5x) and there were people who could read 150 BPM songs at 8x. Most if not all of the players who will be legitimately good at osu!mania are going to use very high scroll speeds (especially anyone who comes from one of the other communities).

This system still does nothing to address the problem of not being able to use 1 speed for all songs, unless you are able to read at a wide range of fall speeds. There are 2 ways to solve that problem: automate speed selection by specifying a target final fall speed in BPM and have osu! select the appropriate speed multiplier (this would also become more complex with maps that have a large speed range) or provide C speeds. Neither of these are likely to be implemented, making this something that you cannot solve with the current attitude that many members of the osu! community seem to have.

I also do not see why slider speed or approach rate are necessary in the first place. Playing osu standard maps in osu!mania is not the intended way to play osu!mania, and these options can be easily removed from the options available to the mapper when mapping specifically for osu!mania. I see no reason to try to make osu!mania into "standard osu! played scrolling downwards" it should evolve into it's own mode without being too attached to how osu! standard works. The mode is obviously inspired by Beatmania, O2jam, DJMax, Stepmania and other scrolling games, each of which had different options available. Personally, I preferred Stepmania and o2jam. Stepmania, because I could play C speeds, and a large portion of the community did too, and the maps were always extremely well timed and extremely accurate to the song, and O2jam because I enjoyed the 7k playstyle (but I hated how limited the speed modifiers were).

EDIT: also, if C mods were allowed, but were unranked, I would be extremely happy. I don't care about my rank, I play the game because I want to have fun. For me, fun is self-improvement. I will always be mediocre, so the things I need to improve will always be things like reading more and more complex patterns, or dealing with more complex holds, learning to play lifts, etc. I don't need speed changes and other things outside of the patterns themselves causing problems for me. I just want to be able to play the game my way, and if that means sacrificing the extra bonuses of having my scores ranked online, I'm completely ok with that.

woc2006 wrote:

There won't be C speed which makes some maps easier like deltaMax.

Archangel Tirael wrote:

If I understand you correctly, you are also against the fact that it was introduced to the game ... I support you, unless of course I got it right.

Bobbias wrote:

Not entirely sure what you're referring to here. I'm opposed to using fixed BPM multipliers instead of the current system, due to the reduction in speed multiplier options (unless you allow for smaller multiplier increments, such as 0.25 or 0.1). I'm not entirely opposed to part of your idea of changing fall rate, although I do disagree with using slider speed in the mod,
since it effectively does the same thing as changing the BPM does in the current system So very inaccurate. You forget BPM flashes and beat bars which are some players method of beat detection
but requires mappers who map for osu!mania to rely on slider speed changes to affect the scroll speed.

I really think that osu!mania should be allowed to stand on it's own, not subject to the same set of rules for allowed features as osu! standard is.

There wrote:

Bobbias wrote:

Not entirely sure what you're referring to here. I'm opposed to using fixed BPM multipliers instead of the current system, due to the reduction in speed multiplier options (unless you allow for smaller multiplier increments, such as 0.25 or 0.1). I'm not entirely opposed to part of your idea of changing fall rate, although I do disagree with using slider speed in the mod,
since it effectively does the same thing as changing the BPM does in the current system So very inaccurate. You forget BPM flashes and beat bars which are some players method of beat detection
but requires mappers who map for osu!mania to rely on slider speed changes to affect the scroll speed.

I really think that osu!mania should be allowed to stand on it's own, not subject to the same set of rules for allowed features as osu! standard is.

Smaller increments would be fine, hell CUSTOM increments (type it in) would be fine. My biggest thing is reduce the speed difference between large bpm changes and give mappers more control over their own maps without using BPM changes that can cause flash/graphic glitches. (Some players notice them, take a map that was converted from Ddream sm format to osu and see how many graphic errors there are are when the bpm switches from .997 to 1.003 constantly)

Also, using sv instead of BPM will allow beat bars AND speed ups/slow downs in a creative fashion. (As it wont truly modify the amount of notes you can place in that section, just how fast they approach) and the AR would allow us to create difficulties without a lot of notes at a reasonable speed instead of being stuck to the songs BPM. (Which if your making an easy for a 250 bpm song it would be a bit difficult, and difficulty shouldn't be based on the BPM of a map but instead at the mappers discretion.)

This wrote:

difficulty shouldn't be based on the BPM of a map but instead at the mappers discretion.)

Ami Furi Koneko wrote:

Better add BPM indication for the song selected in multi + allow to change speed before the start of the play. In single play when I see song's BPM I already know approximate speed I need to play that song comfortably and the more experience I get at this game the more accurate I predict my comfortable speed settings. Basing fall speed on AR is totally unpredictable and would hella frustrate me.
And about like...~10(?) maps that are unplayable because of BPM changes, well, consider them unplayable. It's all autoconvertions anyway, no need to adjust game to the songs, better adjust upcoming songs to the game.

Bobbias wrote:

I'm not surprised that very few people here would agree with C speeds, and it's not something I'm terribly concerned about.

Part of the reason I'm more or less fine with how things are is that you have a wide range of speeds available. I don't know how high the current settings allow you to go, but I think that for a BPM of say, 80, you can adjust up to 20+ if you are comfortable at those speeds, and yet for something with an extremely high BPM you can drop all the way down to 1 if you want. This gives a much wider range of speeds than a set selection of multipliers. With this setup, it's possible to keep your scroll rate relatively close to the same value by adjusting in smaller increments.

As an example of where multiplier speeds would be annoying, take the difference between 150 BPM and 160 BPM. At a multiplier of 4x 150 BPM becomes 600. If 600 is your ideal speed, and you wish to play a 160 BPM song at as close to that speed as possible, you are stuck with either selecting 4x for an effective rate of 640, or 3.5x at an effective speed of 560. If you are like me, and small deviations from your ideal speed can cause large differences in your score, this can be a big problem. And it was, since o2jam used this system. There were many songs with BPMs that were not comfortable at any of the available speed multipliers. Your math does little to change this particular problem, since the effective fall rate may still lie at points where the multipliers cannot bring you close enough to your ideal rate. This problem becomes even more pronounced at higher BPMs, where the difference between a multiplier of 2x and 2.5x can be very large. At 400 BPM (effective rate after your math) the difference between 2x and 2.5x is the difference between falling at 800 BPM and 1000 BPM.

As a side note, I played C800 and C700 for nearly all of the 6 years I spent playing stepmania. I played o2jam songs at an effective fall rate of between 600 and 750 (150 BPM songs at either 4x when I started, or 5x after I trained myself to read 5x) and there were people who could read 150 BPM songs at 8x. Most if not all of the players who will be legitimately good at osu!mania are going to use very high scroll speeds (especially anyone who comes from one of the other communities).

This system still does nothing to address the problem of not being able to use 1 speed for all songs, unless you are able to read at a wide range of fall speeds. There are 2 ways to solve that problem: automate speed selection by specifying a target final fall speed in BPM and have osu! select the appropriate speed multiplier (this would also become more complex with maps that have a large speed range) or provide C speeds. Neither of these are likely to be implemented, making this something that you cannot solve with the current attitude that many members of the osu! community seem to have.

I also do not see why slider speed or approach rate are necessary in the first place. Playing osu standard maps in osu!mania is not the intended way to play osu!mania, and these options can be easily removed from the options available to the mapper when mapping specifically for osu!mania. I see no reason to try to make osu!mania into "standard osu! played scrolling downwards" it should evolve into it's own mode without being too attached to how osu! standard works. The mode is obviously inspired by Beatmania, O2jam, DJMax, Stepmania and other scrolling games, each of which had different options available. Personally, I preferred Stepmania and o2jam. Stepmania, because I could play C speeds, and a large portion of the community did too, and the maps were always extremely well timed and extremely accurate to the song, and O2jam because I enjoyed the 7k playstyle (but I hated how limited the speed modifiers were).

EDIT: also, if C mods were allowed, but were unranked, I would be extremely happy. I don't care about my rank, I play the game because I want to have fun. For me, fun is self-improvement. I will always be mediocre, so the things I need to improve will always be things like reading more and more complex patterns, or dealing with more complex holds, learning to play lifts, etc. I don't need speed changes and other things outside of the patterns themselves causing problems for me. I just want to be able to play the game my way, and if that means sacrificing the extra bonuses of having my scores ranked online, I'm completely ok with that.