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This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +49
posted
This expands and organizes on this thread.

My proposition:
Set the speed of fall rate to a constant speed based on the approach rate and slider velocity.

Proposed Formula:
BPM Equivalent Scroll Rate = ((Approach Rate x 50 x Slider Velocity) * Round4(Current BPM/Highest BPM))/2

Extra info:
(Round4 is round to 4th decimal place)


Approach Rate Base Ammounts:
1. 50
2. 100
3. 150
4. 200
5. 250
6. 300
7. 350
8. 400
9. 450
10. 500
11. 550


Reasons:
  1. Current fall speeds are an (unknown) multiplication of the songs bpm.
  2. Osu!standard uses an approach rate to determine the speed at which notes appear/disappear.
  3. Changing songs with a large change in BPM requires re-calibrating of your falling speed. This requires the player to stop and change the speed (increasing play count or suffering accuracy loss).
  4. Songs with variable speeds with the current formula produce insane falling speed changes.
  5. 1 speed cant be used effectively with all songs.


BPM Equivalent Example List (Highest/Lowest):
  1. Delta Max [Outdated] - 270/47.115
  2. Strange Program [Tag] - 400/100
  3. Seal - Kiss From a Rose [Hard] - 245/59.486
  4. Big Black - 450

(Note that the very low bpm's in this section are also very slow (and short) parts in the song.)

Customization:
Now some players may like increased BPM's or slower ones.
Introduce 0.5x, 1x, 1.5x, 2x, 3x, 4x, 6x, 8x modifiers for the Fall Speed.

Conclusion:
With this formula speeds will be more consistent, fall speed modifiers are visible (giving the player a better idea of how much of a change there will be to the speed), slider velocity changes will change the fall speed, most songs will be playable at 1x rate, harder songs will approach faster/more spread and vice versa, AND approach rate will actually do something!

Edits/Notes:
BPM Equivalent: Compared to DDR/Stepmania scroll speed at 1x at that songs bpm.
posted
Interesting however, you should have added that to the previous thread (any moderator can easily add it to the OP if necessary) instead of making a new one. [Duplicate]
posted
That thread has no organization and the OP never included a formula. I request you remove the duplicate tag from this as it IS different. They suggested JUST 1x style speeds. This suggests a fall speed recalculation to include SV and AR. Please fully read something before you tag it!
posted
It's similar, but not the same - the other thread talks about fall speed multipliers, this thread talks about changing the calculations so the original fall speed takes AR and SV into account instead of BPM (just like how Taiko does.)

I'm removing the duplicate tag, but I'd suggest that the OP changes the thread title to something like "Have osu!mania fall speed account for AR and SV" or something, because it IS almost exactly the same name as the other thread, and it's easily mistaken as a duplicate.
posted
No support. It's brokes mania gameplay. I never see, for example, AR and SV in beatmania or DJMAX.
posted
Certainly this will make osu!mania a very different game from other games like O2Jam or Stepmania, but that's how it should be imo.
osu!mania is osu!mania, not <Game Name> v2.

There're 3 reasons as to why I didn't include any formula but only speed multipliers.
1. I have absolutely no knowledge/experience regarding music game mapping, let alone formulas.
2. I believe that players should be able to choose to play way they like (some like it fast and some like it slow)
3. Whereas mappers should be able to make their own unique maps (when they get their tools). Thus any kind of calculation system is going to work.
note: not criticizing your idea/formula in any way, I think it's interesting and suits to the context of osu!

And regarding the thread having no organization.... I found out the hard way that there's nothing you can do with forum spammers who just post brainless bullsh*t to rack up on post count. (just sit back and enjoy the game)


Anyways, very interested in seeing what this will lead to.
posted

Harappy wrote:

osu!mania is osu!mania, not <Game Name> v2.
Personally for me <Game Name> v2 even more attractive than it... Personally, I have almost everything in terms of gameplay in osu!mania satisfied.
posted
I would like if there was a way to set a constant speed where the song BPM had no effect on the scroll speed, but other than that, I think the current speed settings are fine.

I play on speed 15 or 16 for 150 BPM songs, and if the BPM is lower, I will raise my speed, and if the BPM is higher, I will lower my speed. 300 BPM is comfortable at speed 8 for me, for example.

I do have problems with songs that have a huge range in BPM changes, such as wac - Waltz No. 17 in G minor, "Waltz of the big dogs", but that is more because I'm absolutely terrible at reading slow scroll speeds (I have to play that on about speed 10-12 or possibly lower, and the slower parts are too slow for me to read well). But there aren't too many maps with a big enough range in BPM to be a problem.
posted

Bobbias wrote:

I would like if there was a way to set a constant speed where the song BPM had no effect on the scroll speed, but other than that, I think the current speed settings are fine.

I play on speed 15 or 16 for 150 BPM songs, and if the BPM is lower, I will raise my speed, and if the BPM is higher, I will lower my speed. 300 BPM is comfortable at speed 8 for me, for example.

I do have problems with songs that have a huge range in BPM changes, such as wac - Waltz No. 17 in G minor, "Waltz of the big dogs", but that is more because I'm absolutely terrible at reading slow scroll speeds (I have to play that on about speed 10-12 or possibly lower, and the slower parts are too slow for me to read well). But there aren't too many maps with a big enough range in BPM to be a problem.

The problem with "C" modifiers is that it removes possible speed warps and other "fall speed" manipulations that would be designed to increase difficulty, giving you an unfair advantage. If it is included I would like to see it penalized at about 80% score (like changing from 7k to 4k).

Songs with large BPM changes are ONE of the reasons for this formula. Testing multiple maps with this formula (converted and non converted) they have a playable range in which you wont need to change speeds mid song.

Having X multipliers will make speed modifiers make more sense for newer players and those used to this genre.


MillhioreF wrote:

It's similar, but not the same - the other thread talks about fall speed multipliers, this thread talks about changing the calculations so the original fall speed takes AR and SV into account instead of BPM (just like how Taiko does.)

I'm removing the duplicate tag, but I'd suggest that the OP changes the thread title to something like "Have osu!mania fall speed account for AR and SV" or something, because it IS almost exactly the same name as the other thread, and it's easily mistaken as a duplicate.
Thank you, Thread title changed.


Archangel Tirael wrote:

No support. It's brokes mania gameplay. I never see, for example, AR and SV in beatmania or DJMAX.
Yes you do, its in the difficulty of the song/map. Just like guitar hero, if the song is being played on normal then the approach rate is lower than expert(AR). Not to mention these will help add "DDR-esque" speed changes to converted maps WITHOUT modifying the BPM/beat bar(SV).

And your other reply, quit being self centered. Just because you are happy with it doesn't mean everyone else IS.
posted
Hello.

I like this idea.

But I'm out of stars.

It can basically enhance readability with songs with heavy amounts of bpm changes that simply can't be changed. It also adds the option to do speed changes and stuff such as stops via SV variations.

So, support.
posted
Supporting this. This way we won't get those bugged guidelines incase woc brings them back.
posted

There wrote:

Just like guitar hero, if the song is being played on normal then the approach rate is lower than expert(AR). Not to mention these will help add "DDR-esque" speed changes to converted maps WITHOUT modifying the BPM/beat.
To be honest, I do not how many do not care, as in Guitar Hero. I just want to play in a cross between Beatmania and DMTR.
posted
I'm not surprised that very few people here would agree with C speeds, and it's not something I'm terribly concerned about.

Part of the reason I'm more or less fine with how things are is that you have a wide range of speeds available. I don't know how high the current settings allow you to go, but I think that for a BPM of say, 80, you can adjust up to 20+ if you are comfortable at those speeds, and yet for something with an extremely high BPM you can drop all the way down to 1 if you want. This gives a much wider range of speeds than a set selection of multipliers. With this setup, it's possible to keep your scroll rate relatively close to the same value by adjusting in smaller increments.

As an example of where multiplier speeds would be annoying, take the difference between 150 BPM and 160 BPM. At a multiplier of 4x 150 BPM becomes 600. If 600 is your ideal speed, and you wish to play a 160 BPM song at as close to that speed as possible, you are stuck with either selecting 4x for an effective rate of 640, or 3.5x at an effective speed of 560. If you are like me, and small deviations from your ideal speed can cause large differences in your score, this can be a big problem. And it was, since o2jam used this system. There were many songs with BPMs that were not comfortable at any of the available speed multipliers. Your math does little to change this particular problem, since the effective fall rate may still lie at points where the multipliers cannot bring you close enough to your ideal rate. This problem becomes even more pronounced at higher BPMs, where the difference between a multiplier of 2x and 2.5x can be very large. At 400 BPM (effective rate after your math) the difference between 2x and 2.5x is the difference between falling at 800 BPM and 1000 BPM.

As a side note, I played C800 and C700 for nearly all of the 6 years I spent playing stepmania. I played o2jam songs at an effective fall rate of between 600 and 750 (150 BPM songs at either 4x when I started, or 5x after I trained myself to read 5x) and there were people who could read 150 BPM songs at 8x. Most if not all of the players who will be legitimately good at osu!mania are going to use very high scroll speeds (especially anyone who comes from one of the other communities).

This system still does nothing to address the problem of not being able to use 1 speed for all songs, unless you are able to read at a wide range of fall speeds. There are 2 ways to solve that problem: automate speed selection by specifying a target final fall speed in BPM and have osu! select the appropriate speed multiplier (this would also become more complex with maps that have a large speed range) or provide C speeds. Neither of these are likely to be implemented, making this something that you cannot solve with the current attitude that many members of the osu! community seem to have.

I also do not see why slider speed or approach rate are necessary in the first place. Playing osu standard maps in osu!mania is not the intended way to play osu!mania, and these options can be easily removed from the options available to the mapper when mapping specifically for osu!mania. I see no reason to try to make osu!mania into "standard osu! played scrolling downwards" it should evolve into it's own mode without being too attached to how osu! standard works. The mode is obviously inspired by Beatmania, O2jam, DJMax, Stepmania and other scrolling games, each of which had different options available. Personally, I preferred Stepmania and o2jam. Stepmania, because I could play C speeds, and a large portion of the community did too, and the maps were always extremely well timed and extremely accurate to the song, and O2jam because I enjoyed the 7k playstyle (but I hated how limited the speed modifiers were).

EDIT: also, if C mods were allowed, but were unranked, I would be extremely happy. I don't care about my rank, I play the game because I want to have fun. For me, fun is self-improvement. I will always be mediocre, so the things I need to improve will always be things like reading more and more complex patterns, or dealing with more complex holds, learning to play lifts, etc. I don't need speed changes and other things outside of the patterns themselves causing problems for me. I just want to be able to play the game my way, and if that means sacrificing the extra bonuses of having my scores ranked online, I'm completely ok with that.
posted
There won't be C speed which makes some maps easier like deltaMax.
posted

Bobbias wrote:

I'm not surprised that very few people here would agree with C speeds, and it's not something I'm terribly concerned about.

Part of the reason I'm more or less fine with how things are is that you have a wide range of speeds available. I don't know how high the current settings allow you to go, but I think that for a BPM of say, 80, you can adjust up to 20+ if you are comfortable at those speeds, and yet for something with an extremely high BPM you can drop all the way down to 1 if you want. This gives a much wider range of speeds than a set selection of multipliers. With this setup, it's possible to keep your scroll rate relatively close to the same value by adjusting in smaller increments.

As an example of where multiplier speeds would be annoying, take the difference between 150 BPM and 160 BPM. At a multiplier of 4x 150 BPM becomes 600. If 600 is your ideal speed, and you wish to play a 160 BPM song at as close to that speed as possible, you are stuck with either selecting 4x for an effective rate of 640, or 3.5x at an effective speed of 560. If you are like me, and small deviations from your ideal speed can cause large differences in your score, this can be a big problem. And it was, since o2jam used this system. There were many songs with BPMs that were not comfortable at any of the available speed multipliers. Your math does little to change this particular problem, since the effective fall rate may still lie at points where the multipliers cannot bring you close enough to your ideal rate. This problem becomes even more pronounced at higher BPMs, where the difference between a multiplier of 2x and 2.5x can be very large. At 400 BPM (effective rate after your math) the difference between 2x and 2.5x is the difference between falling at 800 BPM and 1000 BPM.

As a side note, I played C800 and C700 for nearly all of the 6 years I spent playing stepmania. I played o2jam songs at an effective fall rate of between 600 and 750 (150 BPM songs at either 4x when I started, or 5x after I trained myself to read 5x) and there were people who could read 150 BPM songs at 8x. Most if not all of the players who will be legitimately good at osu!mania are going to use very high scroll speeds (especially anyone who comes from one of the other communities).

This system still does nothing to address the problem of not being able to use 1 speed for all songs, unless you are able to read at a wide range of fall speeds. There are 2 ways to solve that problem: automate speed selection by specifying a target final fall speed in BPM and have osu! select the appropriate speed multiplier (this would also become more complex with maps that have a large speed range) or provide C speeds. Neither of these are likely to be implemented, making this something that you cannot solve with the current attitude that many members of the osu! community seem to have.

I also do not see why slider speed or approach rate are necessary in the first place. Playing osu standard maps in osu!mania is not the intended way to play osu!mania, and these options can be easily removed from the options available to the mapper when mapping specifically for osu!mania. I see no reason to try to make osu!mania into "standard osu! played scrolling downwards" it should evolve into it's own mode without being too attached to how osu! standard works. The mode is obviously inspired by Beatmania, O2jam, DJMax, Stepmania and other scrolling games, each of which had different options available. Personally, I preferred Stepmania and o2jam. Stepmania, because I could play C speeds, and a large portion of the community did too, and the maps were always extremely well timed and extremely accurate to the song, and O2jam because I enjoyed the 7k playstyle (but I hated how limited the speed modifiers were).

EDIT: also, if C mods were allowed, but were unranked, I would be extremely happy. I don't care about my rank, I play the game because I want to have fun. For me, fun is self-improvement. I will always be mediocre, so the things I need to improve will always be things like reading more and more complex patterns, or dealing with more complex holds, learning to play lifts, etc. I don't need speed changes and other things outside of the patterns themselves causing problems for me. I just want to be able to play the game my way, and if that means sacrificing the extra bonuses of having my scores ranked online, I'm completely ok with that.
If I understand you correctly, you are also against the fact that it was introduced to the game ... I support you, unless of course I got it right.
posted
I have an idea how to make it more convenient for the player swings strong tempo songs, but I'll explain later. Think anyone would support such an idea.
posted

woc2006 wrote:

There won't be C speed which makes some maps easier like deltaMax.
Not even unranked? I don't understand why there would be a problem with allowing that as an unranked mod, considering some of the other unranked mods for standard (spunout is nearly pointless, and relax, while fun, impacts gameplay far more than a C mod would.)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that C mods are in any way required, I just want to know why you wouldn't consider even putting it in as an unranked mod for those of us who would enjoy it? Making it unranked means that anyone who cares about scores doesn't have to compete against people who use the mod, and effectively locks anyone who wants ranked scores to play the map as it was intended. It effectively becomes a novelty mod.

Archangel Tirael wrote:

If I understand you correctly, you are also against the fact that it was introduced to the game ... I support you, unless of course I got it right.
Not entirely sure what you're referring to here. I'm opposed to using fixed BPM multipliers instead of the current system, due to the reduction in speed multiplier options (unless you allow for smaller multiplier increments, such as 0.25 or 0.1). I'm not entirely opposed to part of your idea of changing fall rate, although I do disagree with using slider speed in the mod, since it effectively does the same thing as changing the BPM does in the current system, but requires mappers who map for osu!mania to rely on slider speed changes to affect the scroll speed.

I really think that osu!mania should be allowed to stand on it's own, not subject to the same set of rules for allowed features as osu! standard is.

Small rant on whether the player should have certain options:
The easiest way to sum up my personal stance on features and speed mods and such is "pro-choice" for the player. With the community so against many things, such as player selectable AR in standard, and C speeds in mania (to name a few) I would think that the overall community would ignore these changes if they were introduced anyway, and the players who would make use of these changes would be to some degree ostracized from the main community. Allowing changes like this while making the changes unrankable lest players who don't care about ranks to do their own thing away from everyone else, and allows everyone else who wants to rankwhore or play in tournaments to do their thing, with their own rules. It's a live and let live approach, not an "accept our repression, or leave" approach.
posted

Bobbias wrote:

Not entirely sure what you're referring to here. I'm opposed to using fixed BPM multipliers instead of the current system, due to the reduction in speed multiplier options (unless you allow for smaller multiplier increments, such as 0.25 or 0.1). I'm not entirely opposed to part of your idea of changing fall rate, although I do disagree with using slider speed in the mod,
since it effectively does the same thing as changing the BPM does in the current system So very inaccurate. You forget BPM flashes and beat bars which are some players method of beat detection
but requires mappers who map for osu!mania to rely on slider speed changes to affect the scroll speed.

I really think that osu!mania should be allowed to stand on it's own, not subject to the same set of rules for allowed features as osu! standard is.
Smaller increments would be fine, hell CUSTOM increments (type it in) would be fine. My biggest thing is reduce the speed difference between large bpm changes and give mappers more control over their own maps without using BPM changes that can cause flash/graphic glitches. (Some players notice them, take a map that was converted from Ddream sm format to osu and see how many graphic errors there are are when the bpm switches from .997 to 1.003 constantly)

Also, using sv instead of BPM will allow beat bars AND speed ups/slow downs in a creative fashion. (As it wont truly modify the amount of notes you can place in that section, just how fast they approach) and the AR would allow us to create difficulties without a lot of notes at a reasonable speed instead of being stuck to the songs BPM. (Which if your making an easy for a 250 bpm song it would be a bit difficult, and difficulty shouldn't be based on the BPM of a map but instead at the mappers discretion.)
posted
I think this one could be better : 2000 - (Speed (1-30) * 65)
Your formula is too hard :(
posted

There wrote:

Bobbias wrote:

Not entirely sure what you're referring to here. I'm opposed to using fixed BPM multipliers instead of the current system, due to the reduction in speed multiplier options (unless you allow for smaller multiplier increments, such as 0.25 or 0.1). I'm not entirely opposed to part of your idea of changing fall rate, although I do disagree with using slider speed in the mod,
since it effectively does the same thing as changing the BPM does in the current system So very inaccurate. You forget BPM flashes and beat bars which are some players method of beat detection
but requires mappers who map for osu!mania to rely on slider speed changes to affect the scroll speed.

I really think that osu!mania should be allowed to stand on it's own, not subject to the same set of rules for allowed features as osu! standard is.
Smaller increments would be fine, hell CUSTOM increments (type it in) would be fine. My biggest thing is reduce the speed difference between large bpm changes and give mappers more control over their own maps without using BPM changes that can cause flash/graphic glitches. (Some players notice them, take a map that was converted from Ddream sm format to osu and see how many graphic errors there are are when the bpm switches from .997 to 1.003 constantly)

Also, using sv instead of BPM will allow beat bars AND speed ups/slow downs in a creative fashion. (As it wont truly modify the amount of notes you can place in that section, just how fast they approach) and the AR would allow us to create difficulties without a lot of notes at a reasonable speed instead of being stuck to the songs BPM. (Which if your making an easy for a 250 bpm song it would be a bit difficult, and difficulty shouldn't be based on the BPM of a map but instead at the mappers discretion.)
Ideally there shouldn't be any graphical glitches, so that shouldn't impact the decision in any way shape or form. For a 250 BPM song, as long as the song doesn't change BPM wildly, it would not be very difficult for the player to lower their speed. If you require things slower than 250 BPM at speed 1, you might want to learn to read things a bit faster since anything remotely complex would be damn near impossible to read at that speed (for most people anyway, I'm sure there's someone who'd be capable of that).

I'm not quite sure what BPM flashes you mean, so that could be something to consider, but i still think that using slider velocity, which is a value that literally does not make sense in an osu!mania setting is a hacky solution at best. If you really want a way to control scroll speed outside of BPM, then a new value that more accurately describes what you're doing should be added into the editor.

This wrote:

difficulty shouldn't be based on the BPM of a map but instead at the mappers discretion.)
The problem I have with this is that mappers often end up biasing certain elements of the map's difficulty to their skill level (which is bad, considering how many people submit maps, and how few of them are actually good at the game). An example would be mappers using a lower AR in standard on a fast song not because they want to make the song "more difficult for people who like high AR" but because they just suck at reading high AR. This is not a thought out decision on the mapper's part, but simply the mapper mapping to their skill level without basing the decision on whether or not the map deserves a certain AR level based on it's difficulty and mapping. If a song is really fast, it should feel fast, period. If you want to make it easier, either map it at half BPM (perfectly feasible and I believe allowed, especially if it were to be speedcore or something), or make the actual patterns easier.

I'd also like to point out that a value like that can be abused more than BPM changes and BPM would no longer be a decent indicator of how fast a map could end up scrolling. Just think how annoying it would be to see a map that says it's 150 BPM, only to find out that the mapper decided to jack up the drop rate to the equivalent of 300 or 450 or something. You'd have no warning, no indication that this was going to happen until you hit the point in the song that they used that in. There were similar problems with o2jam because when you'd check the song selection, the BPM that the song was listed as was the main BPM, and never told you if there were BPM changes in the song. V3 for example, is mostly 320 BPM, but is listed as 160 because that's what the intro is. It's a huge pain in the ass to have to learn which maps abuse scroll speeds even when you have a limited selection like o2jam did, but with osu and the massive number of maps it would be damn near impossible (I have 13k+ plays and my most played map has less than 200 plays, I spend nearly all my time in osu sightreading maps I've never played or only played once or twice).
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