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[Proposal] General RC change regarding CS values

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Topic Starter
MBomb
Hello there!

CS values below 2, or above 7, are currently considered unrankable, since they require making changes to the .osu file, which breaks the following rule:

Do not edit the .osu file to modify difficulty settings or insert break times in ways that are unintended for each respective game mode. Other .osu file edits such as stack leniency, slider velocity, and skinning settings are acceptable.


However, I feel that these CS values should be allowed, since they function in similar ways to other CS values if the .osu is changed, meaning they don't break anything, and there's even an argument that because of this, they shouldn't fall under the "unintended" category at all, however it is generally agreed that they do.

Whilst these CS values may seem a little ridiculous to both players, mappers and BNs right now, I feel this is partly due to a lack of experimentation and usage of them, due to their current unrankability. However, I feel BNs should be, and are, able to determine whether the usage of these values is acceptable in a map in a case by case basis, rather than them being strictly a problem.

There are already multiple well made maps using these unrankable CS values, both in the loved section and in the graveyard, proving that the concept of making these maps isn't necessarily impossible, and can even work well.

I was originally planning on making this proposal purely for catch, but after discussion in the dev server, someone told me it was worth considering for standard as well.

My suggested change to the wording goes as follows.

Do not edit the .osu file to modify difficulty settings or insert break times in ways that are unintended for each respective game mode. Circle size values from 0 to 10 are acceptable, as these work as intended, even if you cannot reach them through the editor. Other .osu file edits such as stack leniency, slider velocity, and skinning settings are also acceptable.


I'll be honest, this wording can definitely be improved, but I couldn't think of how else to word it.

Please share your thoughts on this!
Sanyi
Would be cool imo, so I am supporting this change unless it causes some sort of problem we haven't figured out yet.
Daletto
I'd like this to be implemented since it opens up a lot of new maybe gimmicky maps and styles which you couldnt provide with current cs restrictions.
Kimitakari
+1 for me
Nao Tomori
if it doesnt actually break anything in the game i don't really see why not
Ascendance
why not just take the current rule and add "circle size values" to the exceptions list, i don't think it needs it's own sentence about specifics of circle size

or just change difficulty settings to be AR/OD/HP

ranking criteria wrote:

Do not edit the .osu file to modify approach rate, overall difficulty, HP drain or insert break times in ways that are unintended for each respective game mode. Other .osu file edits such as stack leniency, slider velocity, and skinning settings are acceptable.
Topic Starter
MBomb
Would also work, when I was looking at it, I was just thinking it may be a little weird since difficulty values are expressly mentioned in the things not to change (due to them breaking things if you use values that aren't possible I assume), so I separated them, but if people think it's clear enough with them in the exceptions part that works too.
Ascendance
yea I got what you were going for but I'm just tryin to find ways to condense it better since adding an entire sentence purely about CS is probably giving it too much attention

generally agree tho
Pennek
I think the wording Ascendance proposed looks pretty clear. Might also need a clause to restrict decimal abuse. Otherwise we might end up with absurd CS values on some maps
[Shiny]
I think this would be a very nice addition, as you have said, it will help to open the variety to gimmicky or different maps which uses them in a clever way.
My only concern is the limits about them, as I personally think that pushing the limits to 0 and 10 is a bit too much, at least on the higher side. Personally, I think CS0 (actually, it applies to OD/HP/AR as well) works bad, as it doesn't get higher with the HR mod, which is weird in a way, but it's probably intended to begin with (that's probably the reason why they are used at all). However, the fact that there are CS0 maps in the Loved category is a thing, so I guess the public acceptance of them is certain.
On the other side, pushing the limits to 10 seems a bit much, at least for me. I know people can make cool maps with high CS but I personally think 8, or at most 9 is fine. CS10 seems a bit too much. However, limiting the CS is one of the factors that this discussion was brought up so I guess it's contradictory.
But yes, I'm mostly neutral about this. Limiting CS to 2-7 has been always a weird thing to me, but pushing them farer than 1-8/9 would be weird too, just more flexible.

It's still a very interesting porposal anyway, I'm looking forward to this!

Nao Tomori wrote:

if it doesnt actually break anything in the game i don't really see why not

This need to be considered over everything, as I'm sure there is at least one bug when CS goes off the limits set by the editor (2-7).
Karoo13
There are no bugs caused by changing these numbers, but due to how HR and EZ multiply the values by 1.3 and 0.5, the behavior can be unexpected.

CS7.7 and above will all become 10 with HR, CS0 will not increase at all. These are likely the reasons it was restricted from 2 to 7 to begin with.

EZ will bring CS10 from 9.6px to 32px, 3.33x radius, which is quite unbalanced compared to say CS5 32px to 43.2px, 1.35x radius.

Not saying we shouldn't have more freedom as mappers, but due to how these dumb mods were implemented it might cause some score vs difficulty balance issues. If we had the chance to rewrite osu (coughcoughlazercough) it would be a good idea to have the CS value proportional to radius, so HR can do 0.85x and EZ can do 1.3x.
Topic Starter
MBomb
Whilst I do agree that it's a little unexpected behaviour, I don't think it's worth avoiding for this reason, since other difficulty elements also do the same thing of capping at 10 and not being able to go below 0. Whilst it's very rarely used, AR0 is fully rankable and does the same thing as CS0 does in terms of adding mods.

There's an argument for AR and HP not actually affecting gameplay, the same can't be said for OD (at least in standard), which also exhibits similar behaviour.
-Mo-
A quick number crunch just for information (standard). Note how the magnitude of change is greater at higher CS (20% difference in area for our typical values, but going onto 50% difference at the top end).



My initial opinion which was discussed in #modding was that CS outside of the current range for standard was just stupid to play with. CS1 and 0 seems absurdly large and doesn't really add much to the map beyond what CS2 already can. And CS>7 was just... silly.

I kinda wanted to see a good implementation of super high CS in a map before we could consider it, and well, this map kinda does.
Topic Starter
MBomb
Whilst for a different mode of the CS9 map there, this map is a good example of how CS0 can work really well in catch.
tatatat
I think it would be better to petition the developers to change the bounds of CS in the editor, so its accessible to everyone. This has already been done with SV limits in multiple gamemodes.

I personally see no problem with CS 0 through 2, or CS 7 through 8. CS 9 and 10 are too extreme in my opinion (at least for osu! standard)
-Mo-
What do you think about the map I linked @tatatat? That's currently using CS9 and I think they used it rather well.
tatatat
Maybe an ultra specific subset of players can play them, but I think it requires such accuracy that it might be physically excluding to some players. Like mouse players, or people with the tiniest bit of shaky hands. While you can certainly make decent maps at CS 9, are they accessible? Do you need to spend money on a tablet to play them?
abraker
I can't imagine why mouse players would have trouble with smaller circles.
clayton
how does this break the rule to begin with? CS outside of 2~7 does exactly as you'd expect and the game was intentionally designed to have it work from 0 to 10 like every other diff setting.

for clarity i'd add it to the "other edits" exceptions like ascendance suggested
-Mo-
I think it's more CS outside of 2-7 weren't supposed to be used for ranked maps (as suggested by the slider being limited in the editor) despite the game supporting it.
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