I may not be relevant in the modding community anymore but I'm going to pull a Donald Trump and keep bringing up things that I feel are important to discuss.

So it's an unwritten rule that stacked note in an easy aren't allowed. However, I'd like to have a real discussion about this, and either make this a written rule, or break this trend once and for all.

so I feel stacked notes in easies are fine. I've introduced a lot of friends to this game, and I've seen some pretty bad players. But I've never seen explicit problems with 1/1 spaced stacks (or sometimes even 1/2 space stacks, if it's a note then a slider with sufficient space after)

Other than just being like "well my friend can do this", let's take a look at EBA (not using O!T!O! because I've never played it)

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/19015
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/20228
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/20496
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/24171

I'd find more but I think 4 is enough to support my point. We see that ALL of the easy diffs listed above are using stacks. While EBA often has many things that wouldn't be seen as positive in the current game (such as some questionable rhythms, no spacing consistency, and kind of boring mapping), it's still interesting to see that this game, which is marketed to like literal scrubs (for lack of a better term), has stacks that are playable by most people in the game.

I'd like some insight as to how this rule came about, and if any actual testing with easy players has been done to see if this is actually "Too hard" for them or if it's just been a thing that's been said with no actual backing. I'd like it if this was an actual issue, that it'd be put in the ranking criteria as a guideline, but if it's not an actual issue, then I'd like to see maps not get unranked so much for it when it causes really no strong issues.

EDIT: Suggested guideline:

Crimmi wrote:

Reading what Redi-chan said, maybe it should be written like this :

Avoid using imbalanced stacks in easy mode. Stacks are acceptable in an easy difficulty. However, they should be limited along the timeline throughout the map, to prevent confusion. They also cannot be obstructed by any preceding object, such as a sliderend.

So like only 1 ~ 3 stacks in an Easy IF it fits, imo I thought long and hard and spoke to my brother Whyme about it a long while back.

Honestly, it's all in how you use the stacks. If you're going to use them in an Easy difficulty, you want to make it VERY obvious that they are separate from the usual distance patterning. I'd suggest that you avoid using them in the middle of a string of constant rhythms, though it's difficult to put it into a written rule imo. It's very heavily context-dependent in their use since you need to consider the overall difficulty of the map along with the strong melody line/part that is being followed.

The one thing that I would be completely against is a circle stacked under a slider end for an Easy as it is more difficult to discern the rhythm due to concentrating on the slider movement plus an obscured hit object. Leave those for Normals.

I can pretty much say ANY stacking shouldn't be allowed on easy difficulties. Only think it is good for is confusing a player. If the object stacked with it already disappeared, then it is okay, but if it then decreases readability a lot (which many people don't know to avoid), then I would not allow it.

Garven wrote:

Leave those for Normals.

I would agree that stacks are completely fine for normal as players learn the basics of the rhythm and because normal and easy mostly provide constant rhythm, he will be able to count that stack without reading the time from approach circle. On the other hand I don't really agree with stacking the end of slider in any case, because that never reads well for newbies. It should be a rule, because even tho many BNs will mention this, but especially new BNs just leave things as they are when it is not in ranking criteria, so it might be unfair for them - Obviously, older modders or BNs got probably used to this, but that does not mean every new BN will know it from start.

tl;dr if the rule would work in my opinion like this, but it's more or less an example and would probably need more polishing.

Stacks circle to slider should be fine in an easy diff (Since you don't need to be accurate when hitting a slider), the ones that are hard to play for beginners are circle to circles. Also take in mind, that all depend of the situation ej: map difficulty, BPM, music, etc
To be honest I don't see a valid reason to disallow stacks on easy diffs.

Wafu wrote:

I can pretty much say ANY stacking shouldn't be allowed on easy difficulties. Only think it is good for is confusing a player. If the object stacked with it already disappeared, then it is okay, but if it then decreases readability a lot (which many people don't know to avoid), then I would not allow it.

Garven wrote:

Leave those for Normals.

I would agree that stacks are completely fine for normal as players learn the basics of the rhythm and because normal and easy mostly provide constant rhythm, he will be able to count that stack without reading the time from approach circle. On the other hand I don't really agree with stacking the end of slider in any case, because that never reads well for newbies. It should be a rule, because even tho many BNs will mention this, but especially new BNs just leave things as they are when it is not in ranking criteria, so it might be unfair for them - Obviously, older modders or BNs got probably used to this, but that does not mean every new BN will know it from start.

tl;dr if the rule would work in my opinion like this, but it's more or less an example and would probably need more polishing.

Stacking objects is not allowed on Easy difficulty. If the stacked object is already not visible, it is okay, but if the object or its approach circle is covered, the readability is decreased a lot. Stacking can be used on Normal difficulty, but it is recommended to use it in clear, constant rhythm and placement.

This is pretty much the kind of thinking that made me actually go and make this thread.

Have you like. . . have you actually seen newer players play maps?

It's one of the hardest things that modders have to think about, because weather someone is a player mod or a BN or whatever, they're still relatively experienced in the game. All of my views on how easy players play are from observation of friends that I've introduced. It's why I've avoided certain things (Like stringing multi-length sliders together in lower diffs) but also how I've realized certain things.

my point in making this is that, from what I've seen, stacks do not actually confuse a player as much as you think. As long as there is enough space, easy players can read the approach circle well enough to understand "Oh! I tap this one twice!" Granted, stacks should be used only in certain places at this time, but that's with ANY diff, and that's called not being a shitty mapper and knowing how to make things follow the music.

1/2 stacks at fast BPMs with no musical point of reference? Yeah, I'd avoid a stack. But an average 1/1 stack at an average tempo with music reasoning? A new player could pick up on that unless they're really just struggling with the game, and at that point, we can't expect everyone to be able to FC everything, but just give them the resources to make a map fair but also challenging.

As for the written rule you've suggested, I'm not sure what your explanation is. "If a stacked object is not already visible, it's okay"

I'm assuming you're talking about slider stacks, which I can agree could be challenging, as they tend to be messier and hard to see because the player is focusing on the slider and not so much focusing on other hitcircles. But that wouldn't be clear unless I read the context of Garven's post.

I'd suggest a new rule but tbh I'm still under the belief that this shouldn't be a rule sooooo

Isn't this covered in the guidelines already? I'm pretty sure this page is linked there: https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Difficulty_appr ... y_elements
It says "Avoid stacked notes" and more than this isn't needed, imo. Depending on the map stacks can work perfectly fine in Easy, so there's no reason to disallow using them completely.
But it might be better mentioning somewhere that stacks in Easy should be kind of "consistent", because the only time I've seen beginners struggle with stacks is when some are 1/1 and others 1/2 or 2/1 or 3/2.. etc. (it's been a while since I've seen Easy diffs with inconsistent stacks, but just in case..)

Reditum wrote:

Have you like. . . have you actually seen newer players play maps?

Yes, I did. Because I know some people who actually started to play, I pretty much know what do they complain about and I see where do they miss. Most frequently on inconsistent rhythm (using many red ticks) and stacks, they tend to click it too quickly, because they don't have the reading skill.

Reditum wrote:

As for the written rule you've suggested, I'm not sure what your explanation is. "If a stacked object is not already visible, it's okay"

I'm assuming you're talking about slider stacks, which I can agree could be challenging, as they tend to be messier and hard to see because the player is focusing on the slider and not so much focusing on other hitcircles. But that wouldn't be clear unless I read the context of Garven's post.

No, I am talking about all stacks. Imagine a pattern: 1/1 circle, 1/1 slider w/ repeat, 1/1 circle on the same place as first circle - This stack is completely fine, because the first circle is most likely not visible at the same time when the last circle appears. But if those objects are visible at once, it would already be a problem, because players would tend to play circle, wait for the next circle below it and "oh, the slider was supposed to play first..." Similar applies to stacking normal notes and notes with sliders - Respectively, players don't have any reading skill, so they'll actually play 1/1 as 1/2 or 1/4, especially if they can see another object, that will result in 100 even if circle is stacked with slider (no matter whether start or end). Also, because I never cared about rank or something, I started mapping for fun like month after I joined the game, obviously the maps were terrible, but that's not the point, the point is because I started early, I know what was comfortable for me and what actually was unplayable and I haven't already met a newbie that was not distracted at least a bit by stacking anything, so that's quite a reason to not show that stuff to them in early stages. We can have soo many difficulties in spread, so why should the easiest difficulty have already stacks. I think the problem is that people make too hard difficulties in overall - Like, why do we have 3 insanes and 2 extras in mapset, but have only one easy and normal while normal is actually almost hard and easy is actually almost normal.. are we making maps only for pros or do we want every skill group to enjoy it, huh? I think very pleasant mapset will attract newbies more - slow progress is always better than sudden, but if they see a stack, inconsistent rhythms and other stuff, I think many of them will be disgusted and might actually quit the game. I would consider any object being covered or covering anything else is not a proper element for easy.

Reditum wrote:

As long as there is enough space, easy players can read the approach circle well enough to understand

Yes, but "as long as" there really is enough space. That means, if you click a note and suddenly the object below it is whole covered, including approach circle by hitburst, then it's not really "easy to read". So basically, this is the point I agree with it and that I actually almost said - If it is rhythmically consistent, expectable and the approach circle is not blended or covered, why not.

Reditum wrote:

just give them the resources to make a map fair but also challenging

This is why we have normal and we are allowed to have something between hard and normal and even something between easy and normal, but actually osu! lacks really easy maps. If you are gonna play your first beatmap, you will sure be looking for something really easy, ignoring all the challenge - Meaning, you will start on low BPM Easy to average BPM Easy and then start over with Normal, where you already look for the challenge, because you are already used to the rhythm, you get some reading skills and so on, but I don't see a single reason why already Easy should be challenging.

You underestimate new players, most of them are always looking for normal diffs, also in my experience when asking new players to test easy difficulties they usually don't have problems with 1/1 stacks or even with 1/2 ones, they have more problems following long slider shapes than stacks, tbh.

I do not underestimate newbies players (and what argument is this? I might actually say you overestimate them), I just say what I already saw happening. Dunno, maybe it depends on everyone, but I never saw anyone complaining anyone about following long slider shapes unless the SV was really high. I think we don't have to discuss this, because we will obviously protect our style of mapping and who did not see anything wrong with stacks won't probably see it now, so well, whatever we say is not going to be considered by each other, stopping my arguing here.

just throwing in my opinion or else it's just gonna remain at Wafu vs everyone who has a different opinion.

<opinion>I agree with Garven, personally. It depends on the concept of the diff for me whether i deem stacks illogical or meaningful. I have seen easy diffs where the entire concept is centered around stacking elements from time to time, whilst I've also seen a lot of diffs where that concept would just not work, be it based on AR or BPM or general theme of the song having no moment which really calls for a technique like that.

The latter is the case in most times, so I don't really see many people using stacks in Easy, but since there are also people who can make them work well because they make sense with that technique I see no reason to further limit the techniques you can use in the easiest diff of a mapset based on "personal observations".

The target audience is either gonna adapt to it, or move on to normals rather quickly if they want to get better at the game.
</opinion>

Nowadays they are quite common in Normal
I use them as well
I don't see why they shouldn't be in easies
It'll seem weird, playing easy, and then
BAM Normal comes in, featuring a 'new' mechanic; stacks
They should be used with care though

Not sure why old EBA themed maps are used as the main example....

But on to the main point, when it comes to something like this, its close to the term "double edged sword". If stacking was completely restricted on Easy difficulties no matter the song type, flow, or theme then yeah, it could make it easier for beginner players but more pressure on the mappers to make a decent map. I know Easy is supposed to be EASY, but not stupid easy to the point we get the same previous "boring to map" or "what's the point of making this diff" experience again. In some cases, a double stack is done to avoid making it look "ugly" or to avoid the overuse of sliders especially when they can't fit. I'm not saying to go stack happy on "Easy" difficulties, but moderated and proper use should be able to avoid problems with this in general.

Maybe I'm not making much sense atm, but what i'm worried about is that mappers are happy when there is a balance of regulation and freedom. TOO MUCH regulation would cause strain and stress on mappers to the point of rage quitting and too little regulation would cause chaotic beatmaps to be produced and ranked/qualified. I would hate to see a map get a sudden random DQ over a few properly 1/2 stacks on Easy.

When I just started playing, I had more problems with the restless mapping than with stacked notes, next words are based in my own experience and an attempt to do an objective analysis about stacks on Easy difficulties.

Objectively, stacks are easy to get, since the player wouldn't need to change their focus on the screen when the next note comes,it's more likely newbies will be more focused on the approach circles than in the music rhythm.

Main issue with stacks are the approach circles after the stacked notes, that's what will cause players to get confused as they'll have to wonder what and when to hit in the relatively crowded pattern, often making them to hit the stack fasterand move on quickly to the unstacked note. Given this, you can give a proper break after them, or stack circle(s) in the start of a long slider, and you'll get rid of said issue, or use whatever you could imagine to achieve it. And this must have a degree of consistency, so player gets used to them easily and not throw them off with a different mapping.

Song also plays a role here, playing a slider or two (even three) unstacked circles doesn't give the same feeling than stacked ones.

This is already enough to not forbid stacks completely.

About 1/2 notes/stacks, they are appropriate enough if you give a generous break after it so the players can recover really if they miss. I wouldn't want to see more than two notes like this though, probably three if the BPM is very low. Personally I like to use them over the short stubs of the 1/2 sliders, but this is 100% subjective.

I think this was already said, but I'll repeat it anyway and complement it: being an Easy difficulty doesn't mean it should be FC'd first try, neither having a cheesy rhythm, or have everything on a silver plate for newbies, it should fit the song it is being mapped to while still being beginner friendly, as in not having ridiculous things on it, and I think you know what I mean with this.

Of course, stacks should be used sparingly in Easy difficulties and when they could fit better than any other stuff.

Personally, I prefer stacking only one kind of rhythm in one diff.
I'd agree with Dake that stacks are easy to play when the rhythm of them are consistent in one diff, like 1/1 or 1/2 stacks.
But keeping a variable rhythm is not a nice choice imo in Easy. It's really hard to read as to newbie players. And it's even more annoying with the HD mod on.

So the discussion has pretty much died at this point

I'm not sure how to approach any final conclusions, since this technically isn't a rule.

Should Loctav/p3n just be like "hey don't unrank shit for this anymore unless it's detrimental to the map" or like

I could write up a usable something

Avoid using imbalanced stacks in easy mode. Stacks are acceptable in an easy difficulty. However, they should be consistently spaced along the timeline throughout the map, to prevent confusion. They also cannot be obstructed by any preceding object, such as a sliderend.

Usage of should is important because there are times when in an easy mode, it may have 1/1 stacks, but then a 1/2 stack might be used to emphasize a rhythm that is easy for players to pick up on (ie. music stops, and it's drum hits leading to a chorus or something)

Normally stacks were a disaster especially in low difficulties due to the old 300 skins. But since it's million times easier to read in the current default skin, I guess it wouldn't be much a problem as the past.

Something that I remember (not sure tho) is a case like the following.



You can see this usage of the slider stack hinders reading the entire hit circle, so a stack like this was avoided.

Reading what Redi-chan said, maybe it should be written like this :

Avoid using imbalanced stacks in easy mode. Stacks are acceptable in an easy difficulty. However, they should be limited along the timeline throughout the map, to prevent confusion. They also cannot be obstructed by any preceding object, such as a sliderend.

So like only 1 ~ 3 stacks in an Easy IF it fits, imo I thought long and hard and spoke to my brother Whyme about it a long while back.

Learning to time for approach circles is part of the learning experience. There shouldn't be anything against this EXCEPT circles deliberately stacked for difficulty (e.g. variable number of circles stacked, rhythm of stacked circles, etc.). As such, disallowing stacking objects in Easy altogether makes next to no sense.

those wrote:

Learning to time for approach circles is part of the learning experience. There shouldn't be anything against this EXCEPT circles deliberately stacked for difficulty (e.g. variable number of circles stacked, rhythm of stacked circles, etc.). As such, disallowing stacking objects in Easy altogether makes next to no sense.

If most of the BN knew that >.> I agree.

whymeman wrote:

Not sure why old EBA themed maps are used as the main example....

That game had the benefit of rigorous playtesting, focus groups and a prior version of the game--all for the purpose of making a game that was accessible to a mainstream Western audience. Having said that, when osu!stream was in full swing, peppy was getting playtests from everyone ranging from experienced rhythm gamers, casual onlookers and his own family and coworkers. Stacks were highly discouraged due to the tendency of novices to panic-click so often, so it's probably still safer to avoid stacks which don't have a lot of space in and around them.

make peppy's newborn daughter play it, if she can pass it, then its acceptable
jk pls dont killl me

While I don't see any maps really getting DQed for this nowadays, I'd like to clear this out of Ranking Criteria with a definitive answer.

Updating the main post with the final judgement that has been made so far

those wrote:

Learning to time for approach circles is part of the learning experience. There shouldn't be anything against this EXCEPT circles deliberately stacked for difficulty (e.g. variable number of circles stacked, rhythm of stacked circles, etc.). As such, disallowing stacking objects in Easy altogether makes next to no sense.

This

That ^

Stacks on Easy can be an issue (for example if you use different kinds of stacks like 1/1 and 1/2 they can be hard to differentiate for newbies) but in most of the cases we seem to agree that they are fine to use. There is no need for a guideline (or even rule) at this point.

The Criteria Council will most likely create some sort of table that shows which gameplay elements are appropriate / recommended for each difficulty level. That can serve as a guideline for mappers. We can explain the proper use of stacks in lower diffs with that.

Stacking is still a problem i for one click with mouse and play casually for that little excitement in leaderboards and ranking i only play songs that i like not just to play songs to be the best and these stacking of notes messes with my head and the songs that i want to enjoy are ruined when ever i just want to chill