This idea is great. It allows the denizens to be picked by people who understand everyone. It also has a cooldown so people can think harder about they're decisions.

This idea is pretty good.

I like your idea poly but a big problem with this is that it is very easy to isolate someone from becoming denizen. There will always be some type of bias when you vote for someone and that is obviously going to affect people. Here take this for example, hypnotically if we were to put this system under the hand of gen 8, we would have never gave denizenship Manish or Farfocele. Even if we were active around the same time, there was just something different that made them rejected from our gen. We would have instead chosen to wait for a more worthy candidate such as Karmine. While Manish obviously gotten better over the months, he still would have never been a gen 8 denizen if we were to be able to choose.

The 10 people max generation also doesn't seem that well explained to me. If one sudden influx of denizen comes in with more than 10 people, a few might be excluded to join a generation that doesn't fit them. The point of a generation is to put people that came within the same amount of time and the same social circle together and having a set number of people in a generation will just cut the connection off. And here look at this in gen 8's perspective. Manish was the 10th member of gen 8 and Puck would have been the next denizen for gen 9 by your logic. The thing is that Puck literally don't know any of you guys and even when Puck was active, she barely had any idea who Karmine was.

I like the idea but I just don't think it would work out poly.

i would take out the number of denizens a generation and cooldown

First off, just because I don't respond to a post doesn't mean I have nothing to say about it. I have IRL responsibilities like everyone else here, and those IRL responsibilities were especially present during your original post criticizing mine. I wasn't ignoring you, I had finals combined with an out-of-state trip combined with family issues. If you want to discuss your original rebuttal to my post, you can DM me on either this site or discord (though I can't say I have much time to do that either). I'm not a fan of being portrayed as someone who willfully ignores comments like these, though I also know that misunderstandings like this are very easy to occur on the internet, so I'm going to assume that you didn't mean this.

Next, onto the actual content of your proposal. There's a few flaws (though I am running on very little sleep so not all of these will be fleshed out. I'll be willing to argue tomorrow)

1. The first denizen of a generation is often not the one that defines it. Are you planning to wait to start a new generation until you find someone who fits that role?
2. Putting an artificial cap on the number of people in a generation and the amount of time it should take isn't helpful unless you completely change the definition of what a generation is. One specific era of OT could only produce 5 denizens, while another specific era could produce 20. Should those people be separated without care for how their generation interacted?
3. What exactly does this solve? How does this solve the core issues surrounding denizenship? How does this fix the anxiety revolving denizenship? All this looks like to me is an overcomplexification of the already existing system that just makes things more artificial.

With all due respect, I feel like this idea came about from a fundamental misunderstanding on what denizenship and generations should be. I respect the fact that you care enough about OT to put this much effort into a post, but that's as far as my positive statements go. I cannot stop you from doing this idea independently, nor do I wish to. You are free to do whatever you wish with your time. However, I cannot see this idea replacing the current system the OT!Government uses.

great questions. I have answers for them all, I just need some time for me now, I've been doing this thing the entire day

ghoulybits wrote:

First off, just because I don't respond to a post doesn't mean I have nothing to say about it. I have IRL responsibilities like everyone else here, and those IRL responsibilities were especially present during your original post criticizing mine. I wasn't ignoring you, I had finals combined with an out-of-state trip combined with family issues. If you want to discuss your original rebuttal to my post, you can DM me on either this site or discord (though I can't say I have much time to do that either). I'm not a fan of being portrayed as someone who willfully ignores comments like these, though I also know that misunderstandings like this are very easy to occur on the internet, so I'm going to assume that you didn't mean this.

phew! that sure is a lot of words, I'll make sure to not use "ignore" and "ghoulybits" in the same phrase again I guess.

ghoulybits wrote:

1. The first denizen of a generation is often not the one that defines it. Are you planning to wait to start a new generation until you find someone who fits that role?

like I said, a pool will be made after a generation ends to decide who'll be the first denizen of the next generation between a batch of players who are new and active on OT. No waiting needed.

ghoulybits wrote:

Putting an artificial cap on the number of people in a generation and the amount of time it should take isn't helpful unless you completely change the definition of what a generation is. One specific era of OT could only produce 5 denizens, while another specific era could produce 20. Should those people be separated without care for how their generation interacted?

"There would simply be way too many people especially in the first few gen as they are the OT dwellers who laid the foundation for what we have now" - your parliament

you giving me mixed signals here señorita, are too many people a problem or not? in my humble opinion, its better to maintain a fixed number, so things are more organized, easier to manage and predict when a generation will end and start.

I dont know where this "without care" comes from, since the participants themselves will choose who are going to be next denizen of their generation (choosing the guy who made the most impact on them) and thats why the cooldown was made, to give more time for people to come and know each other and if its not enough time, the generation itself can choose to delay a bit more the choice. What is really out of care is depending on a third party to decide if someone is worthy enough to join a generation, even if the impact they've made is pretty clear to you and the other denizens.

ghoulybits wrote:

What exactly does this solve? How does this solve the core issues surrounding denizenship? How does this fix the anxiety revolving denizenship? All this looks like to me is an overcomplexification of the already existing system that just makes things more artificial.

more artificial? maybe, but you cant tell me it isnt more organized than what we have now.

it fixes the anxiety because becoming a denizen wont be a guaranteed future thing anymore, there is no countdown to join the "hall of fame" no more, you need to be cool and pleasant to be around, thats all.

about your other questions, you need to be more specific. I've listed all things wrong with the current denizenship process in the first item of my thread, you should read those again and ask me something more solid.

I'm sorry if it felt like an overcomplexification, its the way I could write things. If you need something further explained please ask me.

ghoulybits wrote:

With all due respect, I feel like this idea came about from a fundamental misunderstanding on what denizenship and generations should be. I respect the fact that you care enough about OT to put this much effort into a post, but that's as far as my positive statements go. I cannot stop you from doing this idea independently, nor do I wish to. You are free to do whatever you wish with your time. However, I cannot see this idea replacing the current system the OT!Government uses.

this last one is kinda confusing, what denizenship and generation means to you president? I feel there is something more behind your nice words that you arent telling me. We are trying to work with you guys peacefully on the OT!government but it can be really hard when the comms arent clear and you treat us like dogs trying to raise a rebellion and change things just for the sake of changing.




about the other questions: I'll answer them tomorrow... or after tomorrow still dont know, good night guys!

Polyspora wrote:

the generation itself can choose to delay a bit more the choice.

You should probably have a max time they can wait for the decision. Gen 8 denizens seem to have a vendetta against newfags.

[ Sebastian ] wrote:

Polyspora wrote:

the generation itself can choose to delay a bit more the choice.

You should probably have a max time they can wait for the decision. Gen 8 denizens seem to have a vendetta against newfags.

I actually agree with a wait time. 8 months or longer has always sounded favourable.

this is a good idea, since not only opens a better place to discuss about the denizen question, but also sugests new ideas that can be taken to the new denizen system.

anyways, i think that there's something missing, and that something is, as patatita pointed out, the real problem that causes all this, which its the definition of a denizen.

what its a denizen? what was originally a denizen? what is considered now as a denizen? and what could be a better definition of a denizen?

i'll still standing the shinrun idea of making a denizen to be someone with decent activity for 8 monts or a similar period of time, since for me, a denizen is someone who hangs in ot and constantly adds new discussion on the forum, without the "lore" or the "contribution" thing, since at the end of the day, we've all put a little bit of effort in this space

-Remi wrote:

[ Sebastian ] wrote:

Polyspora wrote:

the generation itself can choose to delay a bit more the choice.

You should probably have a max time they can wait for the decision. Gen 8 denizens seem to have a vendetta against newfags.

I actually agree with a wait time. 8 months or longer has always sounded favourable.

I'm all for making people wait 8 months for denizenship. If people could become denizens in just a few weeks, then they would not have as close of a relationship as someone who's been in OT for a while. And plus, the amount of people who'll grind for denizenship then never talk in here again would sky rocket.

3 years is a LOT of time on the internet you know.

you guys are still finding patches without fixing the core issues, i'm starting to get tired of repeating them

What is being a denizen really mean?, if it's to contribute, then, what counts as a noteworthy contribution?

YyottaCat wrote:

3 years is a LOT of time on the internet you know.

generations usually tends to be 2 years long (font:abraker) and like I said, we can discuss about the cooldown time

Patatitta wrote:

you guys are still finding patches without fixing the core issues, i'm starting to get tired of repeating them

What is being a denizen really mean?, if it's to contribute, then, what counts as a noteworthy contribution?

and I'm getting tired of repeating that I answered this in the first item of this thread

[ Sebastian ] wrote:

Polyspora wrote:

the generation itself can choose to delay a bit more the choice.

You should probably have a max time they can wait for the decision. Gen 8 denizens seem to have a vendetta against newfags.

this is a community thing and I'm ready to change the cooldown time and max denizens per genetarion, to best fit the comumunal interest.

I dont think you've answered the quesiton, you just say what denizens deem good enough, good enough means nothing if there isn't a single reference for it

edit: Following up, I just dont think a system where there is a poll for becoming denizen is good, it's just too easy to exploit, and I dont know if we can trust on good faith from OT, I do think that there should be an easy, simple to understand and to implement way to do this, the system is not going to be fair, one month they might be super strict and the next not, polls will only lead to more drama

Patatitta wrote:

I dont think you've answered the quesiton, you just say what denizens deem good enough, good enough means nothing if there isn't a single reference for it

ok I'll quote what I wrote np

"I think everyone who posted here have contributed to OT in some way (even the shitposts or dumb questions), being a denizen shouldnt be a goal but a consequence, contributing to OT doesn't resume itself on good threads or how much effort such player has put on his posts, but how much he integrated himself in this community. Someone who just come here and posts the best thread we've ever seen in our lifes shouldnt be considered a denizen because we dont even know him, he's just a "talented" dude. Now the guy who stick around and is friendly to everyone should 100% be part of us, because that guy added more history and spirit to OT than the first one."

Polyspora wrote:

Patatitta wrote:

I dont think you've answered the quesiton, you just say what denizens deem good enough, good enough means nothing if there isn't a single reference for it

ok I'll quote what I wrote np

"I think everyone who posted here have contributed to OT in some way (even the shitposts or dumb questions), being a denizen shouldnt be a goal but a consequence, contributing to OT doesn't resume itself on good threads or how much effort such player has put on his posts, but how much he integrated himself in this community. Someone who just come here and posts the best thread we've ever seen in our lifes shouldnt be considered a denizen because we dont even know him, he's just a "talented" dude. Now the guy who stick around and is friendly to everyone should 100% be part of us, because that guy added more history and spirit to OT than the first one."

same thing, you're not being specific, you're not giving any examples of actual use cases for the system, and the concept of polls to solve a drama is just not going to work

I want you to make up (or use actual players) an example of two users in the line of denizen. go like

player 1:

has done this, that and that

player 2: this this and that



player 1 isn't denizen because x and player 2 is because y, make a clear line

Patatitta wrote:

...I just dont think a system where there is a poll for becoming denizen is good, it's just too easy to exploit

Yes. Some dwellers might be unfairly targeted to not become a denizen, while others might easily be picked by a lot of people even though in reality they don't really deserve the title.

Polyspora wrote:

phew! that sure is a lot of words, I'll make sure to not use "ignore" and "ghoulybits" in the same phrase again I guess.

How was your day, Polyspora?

Polyspora wrote:

like I said, a pool will be made after a generation ends to decide who'll be the first denizen of the next generation between a batch of players who are new and active on OT. No waiting needed.

All you've described to me is more waiting and a pain in the neck for whoever's in government at the time.

Polyspora wrote:

"There would simply be way too many people especially in the first few gen as they are the OT dwellers who laid the foundation for what we have now" - your parliament

you giving me mixed signals here señorita, are too many people a problem or not? in my humble opinion, its better to maintain a fixed number, so things are more organized, easier to manage and predict when a generation will end and start.

I dont know where this "without care" comes from, since the participants themselves will choose who are going to be next denizen of their generation (choosing the guy who made the most impact on them) and thats why the cooldown was made, to give more time for people to come and know each other and if its not enough time, the generation itself can choose to delay a bit more the choice. What is really out of care is depending on a third party to decide if someone is worthy enough to join a generation, even if the impact they've made is pretty clear to you and the other denizens.

The issue that the current government has with the bloated numbers in previous generations is the fact that they are padded out with people who did the bare amount of contribution in order to become denizen, and then immediately dipped. It has nothing to do with the actual number of people involved. If 50 people were to all qualify for denizenship during a generation, but all 50 of them had put tremendous effort into making OT a cool place to be, then that generation would have the perfect amount of people in it. An artificial cap doesn't solve this issue, quality control (for lack of a better word) does.

The second part of your response is better answered near the end, as I feel as if it ties into other issues.

Polyspora wrote:

more artificial? maybe, but you cant tell me it isnt more organized than what we have now.

it fixes the anxiety because becoming a denizen wont be a guaranteed future thing anymore, there is no countdown to join the "hall of fame" no more, you need to be cool and pleasant to be around, thats all.

about your other questions, you need to be more specific. I've listed all things wrong with the current denizenship process in the first item of my thread, you should read those again and ask me something more solid.

I'm sorry if it felt like an overcomplexification, its the way I could write things. If you need something further explained please ask me.

The way you describe it fixing any anxiety will probably lead to the opposite. In the current system, being passed over for denizenship means some cranky fucks with too much free time on their hands that you don't really talk to don't think you're "worthy" of being denizen. In your proposed system, being passed over for denizenship means your peers, who you likely talk to every day both in and outside of osu, personally don't think you're "worthy" of being denizen. Quite frankly, the second option sounds a Lot more anxiety-inducing for me (though I'll admit I am biased). Your proposal sounds like it opens the door to a new hell of cliquiness.

I am continuing to ask you the rest of the questions, because I do not think your proposal answers them like you think it does. I'd like you to think about this a little more.

Polyspora wrote:

this last one is kinda confusing, what denizenship and generation means to you president? I feel there is something more behind your nice words that you arent telling me. We are trying to work with you guys peacefully on the OT!government but it can be really hard when the comms arent clear and you treat us like dogs trying to raise a rebellion and change things just for the sake of changing.

Denizenship is intended to be a mark that someone has contributed to OT in a way that is substantial and positive. Generations are intended to mark different eras of OT, often differentiated by various metas, means of communication, or general trends. Having an artificial amount of people and time a generation should take up is pointless, because generations (as they currently are, at least) will never conform to that.

This proposal of yours seems to focus more on the community aspect of denizenship (having peers decide who should become a denizen) rather than any objective markers of quality. I fear that your system could be easily manipulated into becoming the "cool kids club" that a lot of newfags seem to think denizens currently are. Again, while I commend you for thinking this through, I don't think you thought it through enough.

Patatitta wrote:

Polyspora wrote:

Patatitta wrote:

I dont think you've answered the quesiton, you just say what denizens deem good enough, good enough means nothing if there isn't a single reference for it

ok I'll quote what I wrote np

"I think everyone who posted here have contributed to OT in some way (even the shitposts or dumb questions), being a denizen shouldnt be a goal but a consequence, contributing to OT doesn't resume itself on good threads or how much effort such player has put on his posts, but how much he integrated himself in this community. Someone who just come here and posts the best thread we've ever seen in our lifes shouldnt be considered a denizen because we dont even know him, he's just a "talented" dude. Now the guy who stick around and is friendly to everyone should 100% be part of us, because that guy added more history and spirit to OT than the first one."

same thing, you're not being specific, you're not giving any examples of actual use cases for the system, and the concept of polls to solve a drama is just not going to work

I want you to make up (or use actual players) an example of two users in the line of denizen. go like

player 1:

has done this, that and that

player 2: this this and that



player 1 isn't denizen because x and player 2 is because y, make a clear line

I guess this is a question about the poll, right?

the thing will consist of players who are making noticeable things here or are really liked by other denizens, like for example: -Remi (participating in the padoru war, creating the coalition), Scyla (likeable character, shitposter), Kaaruumii (present in the majority of the conversations), [ Sebastian ] (friendly to the community), TGGD (well known), A_ChildIGuess (uuh... likeable character I guess?), Patatitta (friendly to the community)

then previous denizens and other dwellers will vote for who made the most impact/most liked on OT recently, the guy who wins will be the first denizen of the new gen. the poll wont be only about time in ot, quality threads or if the guy is cool or not, it'll be about all three since people will vote accordingly to their own opinions about the user. there are no pre-requisites to join the poll, you just need to have done something here recently really.

I think you have some nice points but I feel like answering to your questions now will only lead to another essay, then another, then another, then another... We wont really know if cliques will be a problem if we dont even try the system, I wont participate in the poll and I dont have a bias (maybe the closest to it is karmine, -remi and abraker? maybe?) if you really look into it, I talk to every single person here the same way. Its a voting system, people with preferences are to be expected but also overthrown by other decent users. I want you to imagine it being used now with the 2022 OT, do you think it would work? just answer me this I'm curious. The discussion is over, the system is there... just think about it as a plan B or C. my day was not so great, thank you for asking.

kein bock auf politik. bin raus

that system only promotes competition between users to become denizen, and since everyone can qualify practically (just looking from that list of users), it's just going to become a shitshow, it's more simple and fair to just have a time or post requirement for those users to become denizen


there is also another problem, let's take we have user A, user B, and user C,

user B is a really good user, they post regulary, around two times a week, contributes in lore, makes effort, hosts events, etc etc

but user A is the most beloved person OT has ever seen

even if B should by all means be denizen, their denizen status would be delayed just because there is someone that people like more, that's not fair, this is a popularity contest, this does not take account for the interest that person has in OT, how active they are, how much effort they put in their threads, etc etc

user C wouldn't even have a chance to become denizen even if they were also kind of liked




this can also happen the opposite, where there isn't really anyone that really does anything in ot, yet people are forzed to do so because it's the time for a poll

Patatitta wrote:

that system only promotes competition between users to become denizen, and since everyone can qualify practically (just looking from that list of users), it's just going to become a shitshow, it's more simple and fair to just have a time or post requirement for those users to become denizen


there is also another problem, let's take we have user A, user B, and user C,

user B is a really good user, they post regulary, around two times a week, contributes in lore, makes effort, hosts events, etc etc

but user A is the most beloved person OT has ever seen

even if B should by all means be denizen, their denizen status would be delayed just because there is someone that people like more, that's not fair, this is a popularity contest, this does not take account for the interest that person has in OT, how active they are, how much effort they put in their threads, etc etc


this can also happen the opposite, where there isn't really anyone that really does anything in ot, yet people are forzed to do so because it's the time for a poll

I think there should be a "yay or nay" system where denizens can vote for if they want someone to be a denizen. If a dweller gets over a certain percentage of yays, then they become a denizen. That way multiple dwellers denizens like can join, while others people don't like as much aren't.

Could your system work in the current 2022 OT? Sure. I trust you guys not to be manipulative assholes to one another, and I trust you to keep it flowing.

However, it will accomplish a fraction of what the current OT!Government system can do in the same amount of time, and require a lot more denizenwrangling to boot.

I thank you guys for all the questions and for taking this idea into consideration, I’ll leave the idea here, unedited (I won’t even fix grammar issues) as a type of document if sometime in the future people think about using it. For now I have other matters to take care in the coalition. Money is about to run and space is going to be real.

To the OT!government, we need some type of ritual to make our alliance official. Remember: the coalition won’t attack, but it’ll defend.

Polyspora wrote:

To the OT!government, we need some type of ritual to make our alliance official. Remember: the coalition won’t attack, but it’ll defend.

Can someone please catch me up with all these organizations?

Polyspora wrote:

I thank you guys for all the questions and for taking this idea into consideration, I’ll leave the idea here, unedited (I won’t even fix grammar issues) as a type of document if sometime in the future people think about using it. For now I have other matters to take care in the coalition. Money is about to run and space is going to be real.

To the OT!government, we need some type of ritual to make our alliance official. Remember: the coalition won’t attack, but it’ll defend.

KISSS!!!!!

[ Sebastian ] wrote:

Polyspora wrote:

To the OT!government, we need some type of ritual to make our alliance official. Remember: the coalition won’t attack, but it’ll defend.

Can someone please catch me up with all these organizations?

padoru
non padoru
kinda padoru
tad padoru
destiny 2 padoru
padoru everything