talked to hivie, decided this proposal can be archived now as what we currently have suffices.

topic resurfaced again in the taiko server and it seems there's interest for having 3 consecutive 1/1 breaks, as 2 didn't seem sufficient enough, so I'm updating the proposal with that, and poked an NAT to revive it.

yes 3 1/1 consecutive breaks would be nice rather than trynna fit in an uncomfy 3/2 imo

yes 3 1/1 consecutive breaks would be nice rather than trynna fit in an uncomfy 3/2 imo

3 consecutive 1/1 is fine, 2 consecutive 1/1 in my opinion isn't sufficient.

1/1 and 2/1 are the primary snapping of the muzukashii difficulty, 2 1/1 consecutively would not be out of place when regularly mapping. That is not to say rests should feel out of place, but when the definition of a break fits so seamlessly into the existing way of mapping without rest moments does it really serve its purpose of reducing density and giving players rest.

I can see 3 1/1 working, 2 is definitely not enough in most cases imo

as most songs won't support 3/2 breaks structurely i think the breaks should be able to be replaced with 2 or 3 1/1 breaks per measure

Another thing is, the 1/1 breaks are already useable as the RC has breaks as a guideline but this should be explicitly stated so people can use it freely

about the lenght of the break; I think 2 times 1/1 breaks per measure (to make that 'measure' clear, same as 16/1 or 20/1). some people stated they think 2 1/1 per measure won't be enough above so I think it should be able to work for everyone like this:

2x 1/1 per 16/1 or 3x 1/1 20/1

although my personal opinion is 2x 1/1 will be enough anyways

I would like to barter 3 consecutive 1/1 to having at least 3 1/1 in one measure. this would allow more freedom and having 3 1/1 in one measure equates to the same exact density you would have with 3 consecutive 1/1, allowing for more freedom of mapping

this is a guideline after all, and I guarantee someone is gonna map a rhythm like |x---|x---|xxx-|x---|x (x = note, | = downbeat where note after is on 1/1, - = 1/4 space) and theres gonna be a big argument about whether this is a rankable break or if it needs to be changed to |x---|x---|x---|xxx-|x which is the same damn thing density-wise.

or, like, |x---|x-x-|--x-|x---|x, which is a really really common rhythm for dnb and while it has 3 1/1 in one measure, is not supported by the consecutive guideline

Consecutive makes more sense though, the point is to provide a period of concentrated low density for players to recover if they lost track of reading or hand position. Having an average density rhythm count misses the point of the rule.

I wish this just abolish the 3/2 forced break regardless of how long the consecutives 1/1 are, that's all it only matter imo.
As others said above, it just straight misrepresent the song most of the times when the song doesn't fit and that others think this "1/1 consecutive breaks" are not enough just for the sake of being in rc. Guidelines aren't supposed to be broken that easily in the first place.

I could live with this change, but I fear people unnaturally throwing in 3 1/1 breaks everywhere, since this is also kind of an awkward number in many situations.

Is it preferable to unnatural 3/2 breaks? Maybe. But it would also be sad to see people lazily default to spamming 1/1 strings when it would be possible to find a good spot for a 3/2 with a little thought. (or even just a 2/1 break would be preferable in some cases)

I guess overall it's probably a positive change to give more flexibility like this. I just hope we don't see a new flavor of unnatural muzus come out of it.

I think it'd already help if some lines were added to the current RC? The 3/2 should probably not be removed and still maintain the go-to, if possible, but there should be clearer ways to work around it if a 3/2 break does not go along with a section in a proper way.

Edit: This is basically the og post but I felt like the 3/2 was forgotten so I wanted to mention it again

yes 3 1/1 consecutive breaks would be nice rather than trynna fit in an uncomfy 3/2 imo

i still think 3/2 should be prioritized over 3x1/1 when mapping, and for the latter to be more of a substitute in case a 3/2 ruins the pace of the map
thoughts on this reword?

Hivie wrote:

i still think 3/2 should be prioritized over 3x1/1 when mapping

I personally think they should have the same priority, as 3x1/1 is double the size of 3/2 with 1 more object added in between so its like almost exactly the same.

wait, I think we can easily remove the "Using rest moments less frequently" part as it seems redundant because using 3x1/1 is already a form of using 3/2 breaks less frequently. removing it makes the wording less convoluted and more clear imo.

thoughts on this final reword?

Yes and 2x1/1 is 66% of the length of 3x1/1 with 1 less object so they are the same too!


suggestion:

At least 1 rest moment that is 3/2 or longer should be inserted after 16/1 to 20/1 of continuous mapping. An exception can be made if the song's structure would lead to counter intuitive 3/2 rest moments. In this case you can use 3 consecutive 1/1 length rest moments instead as a substitute.

I think hivie's wording is better here because what I understand from ikin's wording is you can only use one method (3x1/1 or 3/2) depending on the song's structure, both methods should be useable at the same time

I actually like ikin's wording and don't get the same vibe off of it as Burak does. That might be different to some people but to me it just covers everything from both worlds

The main point I am trying to convey in my wording is that 3x1/1 should be an exception instead of an alternatively accepted standard. I think the fact i call it a substitute kind of implies interchangeability.

i like ikin's wording too

I think too that's Hivie's wording is better although it might better to precise what "consecutive break" with a sentence in the Ranking criteria's glossary.

"consecutive breaks" seem pretty self-explanatory to me, plus it's gonna be difficult to fully explain it without using pictures, which the RC can't have.

I think I got your idea. It's fine for me if it will still count as a viable solution for the structure problems as you say.

Still think it looks too strict counting it as an "exception" to be honest, if it's "fine/acceptable" it should be fine to call it as an alternative method instead of calling it an exception for a condition. Calling it an alternative is already putting the new method under the 3/2 breaks.

Hivie wrote:

"consecutive breaks" seem pretty self-explanatory to me, plus it's gonna be difficult to fully explain it without using pictures, which the RC can't have.

Although it probably sounds self explanatory for most of people, some might understand it differently than others which would make this whole guideline way less useful.


An example of different understandings that might happen is that some understand consecutive break as break that are contained on the equivalent of 4/1 while others might understand as break that have less of 2 notes between them

ikin5050 wrote:

suggestion:

At least 1 rest moment that is 3/2 or longer should be inserted after 16/1 to 20/1 of continuous mapping. An exception can be made if the song's structure would lead to counter intuitive 3/2 rest moments. In this case you can use 3 consecutive 1/1 length rest moments instead as a substitute.

'exception' implies it should be used rarely under special circumstances, which for newer mappers will not only be misleading but also against what this post is attempting to forward, no? I think something more like 'an alternative break usage could be used' if the song's... rest moments would be more open wording. might also be nitpicking.

I still think that 3/2 breaks are the primary ones you should try going for, and 3x1/1 just serves as a substitute for when 3/2 doesn't fit at all.
this proposal isn't aiming to remove 3/2 out of the picture, and I think that making 3/2 and 3x1/1 "equal" in priority (by making the 3x1/1 as an alternative instead of an exception) would be a step towards that direction which isn't the goal at all (and frankly shouldn't be).

making it an exception seems like the best way forward with this.

Think if the guideline are to be updated to allow 3 consecutive 1/1 as alternative break that guideline should have a stress on the consecutive 1/1s only if the primary 3/2 break is not intuitive in the map

as for what is intuitive and what's not, BNs should be able to figure that out themselves

only concern is new mappers who look at this guideline and don't understand what is "counter-intuitive" and simply just use 1/1 breaks so you might have to elaborate more on that as well

Here's what I came up with in terms of wording for a new guideline, this is primarily based on what others have said. Firstly, the way this is worded is with the idea that the best of either two ideas should be used when necessary, as to not state that one should be preferred over the other in general. The idea of 3 1/1 breaks is technically an exception to the normal way maps are made as a whole is true, which is why it should be explicitly stated that this is simply another option. Also when it comes to ranking, the interpretation of the first part will end up being more important than the actual specific guidelines themselves. Basically meaning that the idea of 1 3/2 breaks every 16/1-20/1 and 3 1/1 breaks every 16/1-20/1 are not even the most important part of what I'm suggesting. But the part above those two, which explains how why/how breaks should be added is more benefitting to the RC.



Here's the wording I came up with;
Guideline: Breaks must be managed in a way that is benefitting of the map. This means that rest moments should not be counter-intuitive and should be forgiving to the player. Given the wide variety of ways breaks can be managed, one or both of these guidelines must be followed, depending which is more benefitting of the map in that given situation.

a) At least 1 rest moment that is 3/2 or longer should be inserted after 16/1 to 20/1 of continuous mapping.

b) At least 3 rest moments that are 1/1 or longer should be inserted after 16/1 to 20/1 of continuous mapping.

I prefer Nifty's suggestion most in this discussion so far as it allows for the most freedom possible in keeping map structure and feel in gameplay as consistent as possible while reducing density to about the same in all cases. There are songs where both 3 x 1/1 and 3/2 does not fit at all.

Also this is outside the current proposal, but I really think the 16/1 - 20/1 length should be reevaluated and that an extension to 64/1 should be considered. I still think the current prescribed length makes no sense, most songs in 4/4 time signature have sections that are 8 measures long. Breaks usually really makes the most sense only when inserted between these sections. In my opinion the most problematic part of the guideline is not the 3/2 part but the 16/1 - 20/1 part because of this.

Honestly, just remove the guideline lol I still find it funny that taiko is the only game mode that has such and oddly specific way of dealing with density.

agree with genjuro post - 3/2 is fine for me, everyone just needed to learn that and after years realise, that its not good :3

i'd add 3 consecutive 1/1 rest moments, as i play only muzukashii - it can be really hard and exhausting sometimes. Still, I would prioritize 3/2 over that and use 3 1/1 only in exceptional cases

I dont think extending to 64/1 is good at all. Lenience allows 30/1 (which would be the 8 bars in 4/4 that you refer to) already during high intensity times.


I think that making 3x1/1 an alternative is misleading and will lead to people (especially newer mappers and hivie) mapping muzukashiis as oni, just without the color changes.

Personally not a fan of nifty's suggestion of average density because that goes against the idea of a rest moment (to give a space of low intensity) and averaging isn't an appropriate way to assess that.

As a mapper, I’d enjoy having 3 consecutive 1/1 as a possible option due to the difficulty of finding a 3/2 break without causing a weird emptiness within the rhythm.

As a player, I don’t mind much about it but if a mapper uses 3 consecutive 1/1 breaks just to get around the 16/1 rule multiple times, it can get pretty tiring without an extended break (like a 3/2).

I agree with modifying the guidelines to include 3 consecutive 1/1 but only in the case that 3/2 would not be possible or would derail the rhythmic flow of the map. Maybe another guideline can be introduced to limit how many times the 3 consecutive 1/1 can be used before a 3/2 break occurs to prevent a long, fatiguing section.

I think cychloryn's proposal of allowing 2x 1/1 to further delay the necessity of a 3/2 break is pretty reasonable.

I feel that it more or less has the potential to provide a more specific definition of when continuous mapping qualifies as "more forgiving to the player," which could be a good thing, because "more forgiving to the player" is so vague that individuals' understanding of it can vary wildly, whether it be mappers arguing that their muzu isnt hard, or modders arguing that the above quote in the guideline is completely useless.

This lack of consensus due to bad wording is something that has probably wasted the time of countless people..

Such a change would probably be liberal enough to ease the frustration of mappers who already have a place to put a 3/2 or 2/1 break, but are prevented from doing so because the continuous mapping is just a bit too long.

op45667 wrote:

Maybe another guideline can be introduced to limit how many times the 3 consecutive 1/1 can be used before a 3/2 break occurs to prevent a long, fatiguing section.

That won't work as the goal for this proposal is to make rests more intuitive. By limiting the usage of the alternative you start to force the break to be unintuitive again after some time.

As I said in the taiko server: back then we measured rest moments by the actual used main snapping. Since for Muzu it was 1/1+1/2, we went for a minimum of 3/2 break as 2/1 would have disturbed the flow of a map. So continues mapping was seen as a factor to determine how hard beatmaps were.

So if you guys think 1/4 and 1/2 is used more freuently and are also justified as lower diffs cover the rest already well enough, we can go for 2/1 or 3/1.

Whether I would support 2/1 over 3/1 or not however, I'm not sure. But I think going for 3/1 isn't really problematic as you have to used it only after 16 to 20 measures and still have the possibility to use 2/1 under exceptional circumstances.

I would just keep 2 consecutive 1/1 moments, for me is enough to keep the map playable. I agree that 3/2 feels too forced and I had a lot of struggle in finding a good balance every time I had to put the break.

2 consecutive 1/1 is really not enough drop in density to fulfill the purpose of the guideline, which is to make a break period for players who are lost to recover. 1/1 gap into 1/1 gap is a completely average density rhythm which occurs repeatedly throughout a muzu diff and isnt calm enough to allow a player to get back into the map.

Capu wrote:

op45667 wrote:

Maybe another guideline can be introduced to limit how many times the 3 consecutive 1/1 can be used before a 3/2 break occurs to prevent a long, fatiguing section.

That won't work as the goal for this proposal is to make rests more intuitive. By limiting the usage of the alternative you start to force the break to be unintuitive again after some time.

I see. Do note that I'm relatively new to mapping atm.

In that case, I would agree that 2 (more difficult muzus) or 3 (easier muzus) consecutive 1/1 should be used only where 3/2 cannot, but using a 3x1/1 where a 3/2 could've been used just for the sake of making a long pattern is against the principle of having a break in the first place, even if a 3x1/1 provides enough break time.

I agree with Hivie and ikin on that 3x1/1 should be more of an exception than an equal alternate. If a 3/2 can be placed, then it should be, even if it takes a little longer to find that one sound that can be afforded to be nixed in order to provide that break. If 3x1/1 is made equal with 3/2, I'm pretty sure some people won't even bother trying to find a 3/2 even when there are opportunities to do so.

If it was for me I would have gone for 1/1 on light muzukashii (most 1/2 patterns) and 3/2-2/1 for high bpm or heavy 1/4 triplets based. I mean, it's not like we could do differently. 3/2 pauses are weird to use but 1/1 are the classic pauses you use most of the time in a muzukashii so it's not like you have any other choices to put a break on the map. I think even the 3x1/1 could be as weird as 3/2 since it's like having a 3/1 break with 1/1 notes in it. Plus high bpm songs can have a lot of 1/1 single notes so it doesn't make too much of a difference. A lot of times break guidelines were broken to preserve patterning and rhythmic structure of the map. A mapper would choose to go overboard surpassing the 20/1 limit and put a pause when the rhythm allows it instead of forcing a 3/2 pause in a weird place. Sometimes 3/2 breaks makes muzukashii harder because of the poor predictability of the patterns that are changed to allow the weird pause. In that case if we want to point out the difficulty of a muzukashii, it's better having an increased range of continuous mapping instead of putting 3x1/1 continuous breaks or forcing 3/2 breaks that could make the map way harder and unpredictable. Making rests more intuitive in a muzukashi could have the opposite effect of making things more difficult to players and to mappers. I repeat, for me 2x1/1 on light muzukashii and 3/2-2/1 for high bpm and heavy 1/4 triplets muzu are a good option (you can balance the low bpm or the lack of density with the continuous mapping ensured by the 1/1 in a light muzukashii and increase the number of pauses if the bpm is higher or have dense structure). however for me the main change is to be more lenient with continuous mapping limit on muzukashii by increasing it a bit (maybe 30/1 since a lot of people uses 30/1 on kiai and low density parts).