Yuujou was recently ranked with spinners that start and end on the same beatsnap. Modding programs detected nothing as there is no check for a minimum length, and both the start and end of the spinner is properly snapped.
“Ninja Spinners” in standard mode used to refer spinners that were too short to score a 300 on. This was patched out and is less frequently used afaik. Ninja spinner is probably the best term to refer to these short spinners.
The three questions that this thread intends to ask
Required information for reading the thread
With the lack of evidence for or against provided by them, I am hoping to gather opinions of users in regards to whether it should be rankable, and discuss what if anything needs to change.
That was the initial plan for a while but after some consideration, it would be more productive to bite the bullet, and simplify the process to ensure discussion is focused on the more important aspects of this issue. Instead, I will prove why it is unrankable, and propose why it should be rankable.
Why it is unrankable.
The primary reason why some consider spinners as one object can be attributed to the editor giving a count, that there is only 1 spinner on each beatsnap. This is correct, but thinking about a spinner in the same mindset that standard mode does needs to be avoided.
In regards to spinner mechanics :
1. A banana always appears at the start of a spinner
2. When doing the math for generating the middle bananas:
- It takes the length of the spinner
- It divides length by the smallest power of 2 where the outcome is between 50 and 100.
- It will generate (said power of 2) + 1 bananas
Here are some examples with spinner lengths of 250, 800, and 801ms:
250/4 = 62.5, there are 5 bananas in this spinner
800/8 = 100, there are 9 bananas
801/8 = 101ms, this is above 100ms check next power of 2
801/16 = 50.06, there are 17 bananas in this spinner.
Spinners of 800ms will have 9 bananas, if it’s 801ms long it will have 17 bananas.
Yup.
(This is also how slider droplets are generated)
3. A banana will be generated at the calculated interval between 50 and 100ms until the spinner ends. (eg 250/4 = 62.5, a banana appears every 62.5ms)
This is already enough to prove why the ninja spinner is unrankable, but it’s an unreadable mess so the short version is:
A banana is always generated at the start of the spinner
A banana is generated every x ms until the spinner ends, the time gap between every banana is the same. 2 bananas generated by this method never appear on the same beatsnap
A banana is always generated at the end of the spinner.
Conclusion
In order to prove the spinner length is unrankable via the two hitobject rule, two facts need to be proven.
1. That any common rankable spinner length (so any length longer than 1/16 snap) will never have two bananas on the same beatsnap.
(If this wasn't true, the RC would be void and this would be rankable. The long math part above is the evidence for this)
2. That ninja spinners do have two hitobjects on the same beatsnap.
The osu!catch glossary states that each banana is considered as an object. Regardless of how long the spinner is, at least 2 bananas are generated: At the start and end of the spinner. Since a ninja spinner has both the start and end on the same timestamp, it generates two objects on the same timestamp, making this unrankable.
Why it should change
With the introduction out of the way, the first question: “Are ninja spinners rankable under the current RC” is proven to be a solid, “No”.
Question 2, “Should ninja spinners be rankable” is what I’d like to focus this thread on.
When implementing a change like this, there are three important questions to ask
1. Why does this improve things
2. What are the negative issues that could stem from this
3. Does this break the game, lazer included.
The third question is the easiest to answer. I’ve already explained how spinner generation works above, it is mechanically identical to a high bpm spinner, it cannot break anything. I also tested this in lazer a few months ago to ensure there were no issues, it works the same. It doesn’t break star rating since spinners have no effect on it in the first place.
In regards to the first question, I have multiple clear reasons as to why this is an objective improvement to the game.
The first example is Yuujou as linked above. The ninja spinner allows twice as many bananas to be fit in to the same amount of time compared to a spinner that is 1/16 long, which lets the mapper properly emphasise the wub sounds better than if the pattern was unrankable.
The second example is Sinnoh’s Overdose on Oriental Blossom.
00:36:840 (1) - beatmapsets/747823#fruits/1585890
The spinners are used in a similar fashion to regular active objects, where they are played in time to the beat. The issue with using 1/16 spinners is that two fruits are generated: One that is correctly timed, and one that is offbeat by 1/16. Given that the player can catch either banana, there is no way to ensure that the objects are correctly timed. Using ninja spinners would ensure that every banana is correctly timed to the music and avoids incorrectly snapped objects.
In regards to the second question (negative impact), I don’t have any to suggest. If you are against approving this, please give specific tangible examples of why allowing this would have a negative effect on the game.
(Potential faq)
> But what about this being on lower difficulties
1/16 spinners are rankable on all difficulties, not an issue.
>Doesn’t this require text editing
It can be done without it.
>This kind of thing was never intended by the dev team
Gameplay wise, they are fundamentally identical to 1/16 spinners. That was never intended when osu!catch was developed, but it’s rankable and is a common pattern accepted by everyone. 1/16 spinners are currently just an inferior shoehorn to a potential better option.
>Why didn't you admit it was unrankable when this was a hot topic
My opinion on the matter changed after spending more time researching the topic after discussion ended.
What should change
In regards to the third question I asked at the very start of this thread “How should the RC change”. I propose the following:
Change the following rule in the General RC
Add the following rule to the osu!catch RC:
“Ninja Spinners” in standard mode used to refer spinners that were too short to score a 300 on. This was patched out and is less frequently used afaik. Ninja spinner is probably the best term to refer to these short spinners.
The three questions that this thread intends to ask
1. Are ninja spinners rankable under the current RC
2. Should ninja spinners be rankable
3. If the answers to the previous two questions are not the same, how should the RC change.
2. Should ninja spinners be rankable
3. If the answers to the previous two questions are not the same, how should the RC change.
Required information for reading the thread
- Sinnoh’s Overdose - 01:25:241 (1) - beatmapsets/1249928#fruits/2597837
The pattern in question, spinners which are 2ms long, starting and ending on the same beatsnap. - General Ranking Criteria Rules
No two hit objects can be placed on the same tick. This includes hit circles and the durations of sliders and spinners. osu!mania beatmaps are exempt from this.
Objects must be snapped to timeline ticks according to AiMod. - osu!catch glossary
- Banana: An object found during spinners. These award bonus points, but do not contribute to accuracy and are not required to obtain max combo.
With the lack of evidence for or against provided by them, I am hoping to gather opinions of users in regards to whether it should be rankable, and discuss what if anything needs to change.
That was the initial plan for a while but after some consideration, it would be more productive to bite the bullet, and simplify the process to ensure discussion is focused on the more important aspects of this issue. Instead, I will prove why it is unrankable, and propose why it should be rankable.
Why it is unrankable.
The primary reason why some consider spinners as one object can be attributed to the editor giving a count, that there is only 1 spinner on each beatsnap. This is correct, but thinking about a spinner in the same mindset that standard mode does needs to be avoided.
In regards to spinner mechanics :
1. A banana always appears at the start of a spinner
2. When doing the math for generating the middle bananas:
- It takes the length of the spinner
- It divides length by the smallest power of 2 where the outcome is between 50 and 100.
- It will generate (said power of 2) + 1 bananas
Here are some examples with spinner lengths of 250, 800, and 801ms:
250/4 = 62.5, there are 5 bananas in this spinner
800/8 = 100, there are 9 bananas
801/8 = 101ms, this is above 100ms check next power of 2
801/16 = 50.06, there are 17 bananas in this spinner.
Spinners of 800ms will have 9 bananas, if it’s 801ms long it will have 17 bananas.
Yup.
(This is also how slider droplets are generated)
3. A banana will be generated at the calculated interval between 50 and 100ms until the spinner ends. (eg 250/4 = 62.5, a banana appears every 62.5ms)
This is already enough to prove why the ninja spinner is unrankable, but it’s an unreadable mess so the short version is:
A banana is always generated at the start of the spinner
A banana is generated every x ms until the spinner ends, the time gap between every banana is the same. 2 bananas generated by this method never appear on the same beatsnap
A banana is always generated at the end of the spinner.
Conclusion
In order to prove the spinner length is unrankable via the two hitobject rule, two facts need to be proven.
1. That any common rankable spinner length (so any length longer than 1/16 snap) will never have two bananas on the same beatsnap.
(If this wasn't true, the RC would be void and this would be rankable. The long math part above is the evidence for this)
2. That ninja spinners do have two hitobjects on the same beatsnap.
The osu!catch glossary states that each banana is considered as an object. Regardless of how long the spinner is, at least 2 bananas are generated: At the start and end of the spinner. Since a ninja spinner has both the start and end on the same timestamp, it generates two objects on the same timestamp, making this unrankable.
Why it should change
With the introduction out of the way, the first question: “Are ninja spinners rankable under the current RC” is proven to be a solid, “No”.
Question 2, “Should ninja spinners be rankable” is what I’d like to focus this thread on.
When implementing a change like this, there are three important questions to ask
1. Why does this improve things
2. What are the negative issues that could stem from this
3. Does this break the game, lazer included.
The third question is the easiest to answer. I’ve already explained how spinner generation works above, it is mechanically identical to a high bpm spinner, it cannot break anything. I also tested this in lazer a few months ago to ensure there were no issues, it works the same. It doesn’t break star rating since spinners have no effect on it in the first place.
In regards to the first question, I have multiple clear reasons as to why this is an objective improvement to the game.
The first example is Yuujou as linked above. The ninja spinner allows twice as many bananas to be fit in to the same amount of time compared to a spinner that is 1/16 long, which lets the mapper properly emphasise the wub sounds better than if the pattern was unrankable.
The second example is Sinnoh’s Overdose on Oriental Blossom.
00:36:840 (1) - beatmapsets/747823#fruits/1585890
The spinners are used in a similar fashion to regular active objects, where they are played in time to the beat. The issue with using 1/16 spinners is that two fruits are generated: One that is correctly timed, and one that is offbeat by 1/16. Given that the player can catch either banana, there is no way to ensure that the objects are correctly timed. Using ninja spinners would ensure that every banana is correctly timed to the music and avoids incorrectly snapped objects.
In regards to the second question (negative impact), I don’t have any to suggest. If you are against approving this, please give specific tangible examples of why allowing this would have a negative effect on the game.
(Potential faq)
> But what about this being on lower difficulties
1/16 spinners are rankable on all difficulties, not an issue.
>Doesn’t this require text editing
It can be done without it.
>This kind of thing was never intended by the dev team
Gameplay wise, they are fundamentally identical to 1/16 spinners. That was never intended when osu!catch was developed, but it’s rankable and is a common pattern accepted by everyone. 1/16 spinners are currently just an inferior shoehorn to a potential better option.
>Why didn't you admit it was unrankable when this was a hot topic
My opinion on the matter changed after spending more time researching the topic after discussion ended.
What should change
In regards to the third question I asked at the very start of this thread “How should the RC change”. I propose the following:
Change the following rule in the General RC
- No two hit objects can be placed on the same tick. This includes hit circles and the durations of sliders and spinners. osu!mania beatmaps are exempt from this.
Add the following rule to the osu!catch RC:
- No two objects can be placed on the same tick. This includes objects and the durations of sliders and spinners. Bananas within the same spinner are exempt from this rule.”