tatatat wrote:

Can we finally get 3K to be rankable? please?

No

ok so tl;dr these are more or less the same guidelines with different bpm settings and occasional number changes, there should be an easier way to represent all this info than SIX different key-related guides

Hydria wrote:

ok so tl;dr these are more or less the same guidelines with different bpm settings and occasional number changes, there should be an easier way to represent all this info than SIX different key-related guides

agreed, but I wouldn't want something like the current RC where everything is fit into one page that vaguely explains stuffs for other keymodes.

Feerum wrote:

tatatat wrote:

Can we finally get 3K to be rankable? please?

No

Further explanation requested

abraker wrote:

Feerum wrote:

tatatat wrote:

Can we finally get 3K to be rankable? please?

No

Further explanation requested

Im sure you can find enough reasons against it in https://osu.ppy.sh/community/forums/topics/736772 because they are still all valid

Feerum wrote:

abraker wrote:

Feerum wrote:

tatatat wrote:

Can we finally get 3K to be rankable? please?

No

Further explanation requested

Im sure you can find enough reasons against it in https://osu.ppy.sh/community/forums/topics/736772 because they are still all valid

Just as you can find enough reasons for it, because they are all still valid.

I think we can make a single RC page for osu!mania work to accommodate all of these, given how similar they are. I'll play around with it soon to make sure that's possible without making it too cluttered

for 3k discussion make a new thread (or necro the old one) pls

clayton wrote:

I think we can make a single RC page for osu!mania work to accommodate all of these, given how similar they are. I'll play around with it soon to make sure that's possible without making it too cluttered

that'd be very much appreciated

for the "Lowering the approximate rhythm guideline BPMs as the keycount gets higher" suggestion:

I think this makes RC too complicated, because the person reading the RC has to remember to interpret each of these rhythm rules with a different approximate BPM in mind--- meaning that something like "1/2 of a beat" can mean a different thing depending on where you read it. that just seems confusing to me. The whole point of having 180 BPM rhythm guidelines on the RC is so that it's easier to make sense of, because 180 is a decent average for osu! maps where people can intuitively understand the length of "1/2" or "1/4" etc.

and fwiw this makes "Scaling BPM on the Ranking Criteria" invalid

so, while I understand the point of this change, I think you need to change the actual rhythm guidelines instead of the BPM they are based on

clayton wrote:

for the "Lowering the approximate rhythm guideline BPMs as the keycount gets higher" suggestion:

I think this makes RC too complicated, because the person reading the RC has to remember to interpret each of these rhythm rules with a different approximate BPM in mind--- meaning that something like "1/2 of a beat" can mean a different thing depending on where you read it. that just seems confusing to me. The whole point of having 180 BPM rhythm guidelines on the RC is so that it's easier to make sense of, because 180 is a decent average for osu! maps where people can intuitively understand the length of "1/2" or "1/4" etc.

and fwiw this makes "Scaling BPM on the Ranking Criteria" invalid

so, while I understand the point of this change, I think you need to change the actual rhythm guidelines instead of the BPM they are based on

I agree that it would make it slightly more confusing for the mappers/modders or any other people reading the RC, but I believe this won't be a problem because people will get used to it with time. And also I do understand the 180bpm rhythm guideline is a decent average for maps to start with. This is true to almost all cases but considering each keymodes play super differently due to its exponential increase in difficulty as the keycount gets higher (main reason being the level of finger independence increases significantly, next being the density, and lastly different combination of keys from that requires longer time to build up the muscle memory).

One of the reasons that I proposed the change to the approximate rhythm guideline BPM is because with this 180bpm, the rhythm density allowed on the current RC makes it overwhelmingly hard for intermediate players when it reaches the Insane difficulty level. I've had players telling me that the jump from a Hard to an Insane is too huge to be considered a linear increase in difficulty, even when the density is being followed perfectly according to the guidelines provided.

That leads me to think what could possibly be the root of this problem, and after a considerable amount of time of reviewing the RC, I've come to the conclusion that the players aren't getting good basics foundation in lower difficulties of mapsets. The easier difficulties in a mapset are too easy while the harder difficulties are too hard, that's really the main problem from what I've seen. The main goal of these RCs is to adjust the difficulty level across the difficulties, by allowing more notes being used in higher keymodes, this will ensure the full utilization of all the keys being used, which is essential for players building up their foundation in skills and reading. (Take this for an example, a 9K Easy map that follows its current difficulty guideline, which states that you can only use up to 5 consecutive 1/2 rhythm, that means that 4 columns will be left empty for an amount time before it can be used, which makes it less than ideal for learning the keymode efficiently.) So I think all of these should be accounted for.

Next one here is just purely my opinion; in case if people asked me why Insane's guidelines couldn't be nerfed, the biggest problem that I could think of is that there are no limitations as to what you can map in Expert difficulties. Of course you can also have lower level of Expert difficulties to make up the spread in case you have a super high difficulty of an Expert, but to ensure that Insane difficulty can progress more linearly to lower Expert territory, the current Insane guidelines cannot be changed.

That being said, I'm okay with making all the approximate rhythm BPMs the same, however I think 180 is still a tad bit too high for me, so a lower value would be better in my opinion. Or just go with my alternative lol

the logic checks out, I'm just suggesting that you write it into the rules/guidelines themselves instead of changing the approximate BPM part. my concern is only about how it's presented, not the actual effects on gameplay

I guess it's better to wait for more opinions here regardless. maybe this won't even be an issue by the time the community decides which parts to change

As for how it should be written out in the RC, I think we should first figure out how to organize all these rules/guidelines, as you said all these can be fit into one page, given how similar they all are. I can definitely figure out a way to implement the ideas into the main rules/guidelines once that's sorted out. I'm just worried that everything might look cluttered when all of them are in the same page lol

_Kobii wrote:

The approximate rhythm guideline BPM. As the keycounts increases, the difficulty getting into learning higher keymodes would increase as well. So it would make sense to reduce the approximate rhythm guideline BPM as the keycount gets higher.

I don't have a lot to say about this, but it makes sense to me.

_Kobii wrote:

The number of consecutive notes allowed for specific rhythms in Easy and Normal difficulty. This point closely ties to the first point. As the approximate BPM gets lower, it would give more room to put more notes while maintaining the supposed difficulty. Additionally, this leniency would also allow mappers to fully utilize the key columns in the keymode that they are mapping.

This is going to sound weird, but I feel as if very few notes is actually harder than just slightly more dense patterns in higher key counts at low levels. It's difficult to keep concentration for me personally. I don't think players learn the fundamentals of 7-key very well from hitting just one note at a time very slowly, either.

Something more important to mention is that currently there is room for massive jumps between difficulties. Using this beatmap as an example, there is a very large gap between the Hard and Insane difficulties, and there is arguably another large gap between the Normal and the Hard difficulties. This is all within the guideline, though.

While not the greatest evidence, here are my scores for Hard and Insane difficulties, set consecutively and with no time delay. I put forward my best effort on both and I performed the same on both maps.



I have no doubt you'll find more than one person who has the same sentiment about this map set. Since it follows the ranking guidelines, it's strange to me that they potentially allow for such difficulty gaps as this.

_Kobii wrote:

The additional rules imposed on difficulty in a mapset if it is the lowest difficulty. Personally I do not think that these rules should be there, if the difficulty follows the difficulty-specific guidelines perfectly, the additional limitations dropped on these difficulties would be not of any use.

Ties back into the first two points.

Generally speaking I agree with this; even if the key-count-specific stuff is more tedious to maintain, it would overall improve the Ranking Criteria, imo.

yeah formatting this is a pain. I wish I could use dropdown boxes on the wiki or something like that ;__;

maybe separate pages for each keymode, but only listing the guidelines that changed... it may be annoying to look at 2 (or 3) different RC pages but this is already how each game mode handles their specifics with respect to the global RC

bumping this

i've only looked at 7k so far, but these are a few things i've noticed.

hard:

"Note snapping of consecutive 1/8 and higher should not be used." and "Note snapping of consecutive 1/8 should be used sparingly."

these two guidelines contradict each other. i would personally prefer going with the 2nd as 1/8 in hard diffs is pretty reasonable especially at 150 bpm and in short bursts. perhaps rewording it to something like "avoid using more than x consecutive 1/8 notes."

"Keep chord distance in a chordstream at a 1/1 or higher interval. Anything denser than that can deter readability."

this guideline is already covered by the last few guidelines of hard difficulties regarding long chordstreams which already prevents having chords being on the 1/2 or 1/4. would suggest to remove this one.

insane:
"In the middle of a long chord stream with a chord every...1/2, there should not be more than 3 notes."

i feel this should be reduced to 2 notes as the density would be really high if every chord was 3 notes. this would also give better progression to the hard diff guideline which recommends using single notes if there is a chord every 1/2. if there is clear musical justification to use 3 notes on the 1/2, then this could be allowed.

about how the bpm works, i would prefer going with mega's approach. once you get to 9K the guidelines are based on 130 bpm which is slower than the majority of songs that get mapped in mania so most of the time the guidelines won't directly apply. i think it makes more sense to pick the bpm based on what most songs will fall around, rather than the difficulty of the keymode.

@_Kobii any response to the post above?

Well er Kobii... is kinda dead atm. I'm sure he'll respond soon-ish just idk when lol.

However, I came to post more-so about how I think we should approach this thread moving forward since it's looking incredibly grim atm with how little activity is happening on this proposal. I had some discussion on discord with Kobii and a few other people and Faputa brought up a great point and/or solution which is to talk about each keymode one by one. It would more-so go like: Keymode is introduced/brought to topic of discussion, people discuss, reach a consensus, move onto next keymode, repeat process. Pretty simple and efficient imo if we want to get this thread moving anywhere at all at the moment. I think the current flaw with the thread right now is that it's a lot for a reader to consume in one sitting, I mean it's a massive revamp to the entire mania ranking criteria after all. I suppose we can sit here and nitpick at small things until in due time we finally agree to a consensus, but imo that just seems incredibly inefficient and it won't help the thread at all if we just sat here nitpicking until we finally agreed on the proposal. I don't think everyone will want to read everything all at once in one sitting and some people might want to express concerns about certain keymodes that might pertain to them personally because of their mapping experience, playing experience, etc. which I think if we did every keymode one by one would make this a lot more efficient moving forward, in which case Kobii did seem to like. I won't dictate him how to run the thread since this is his proposal but I definitely think this is how we should go about this if we want any sort of progress now.

We also talked about adding a 4K draft into the mix here. Kobii didn't originally added it since most of the current RC pertains to 4K already, but the current RC kinda just clutters everything into one giant blob of rules for every keymode, which then I think 4K should also get its own personal draft which he also did agree on. So hopefully we can see a 4K draft sooner or later in the works.

But yeah... I think when Kobii (hopefully) does make changes to the this thread we'll start to see some activity which should get this thread some traction hopefully.

agree with unpredictable here. i think it'd be better to start off with the most popular keymodes and move on to more obscure ones once those are complete.

i think for now it would be better to start with 7k, as its the most popular keymode besides 4k which most of the RC already works pretty well with.

The guys here would be delighted if 10k were ranked https://osu.ppy.sh/community/forums/topics/379786

abraker wrote:

The guys here would be delighted if 10k were ranked https://osu.ppy.sh/community/forums/topics/379786

I honestly think this isn't too bad. 10K is probably the most viable keymode that's currently not rankable yet and there seems to be a substantial, but niche, growing playerbase to the mania scene which could make a huge impact in the future.

However I think that can be a discussion for another time and on a separate proposal. The discussion currently should just be about current keymodes that can be ranked, instead of ones that *could* be ranked. However do feel free to make another proposal if you do want to see it ranked since the thread you linked has been dead for quite a while with the topic starter kinda already gone by now. I think it'll definitely catch the eyes of a lot of people and some interesting discussion to be had. Would definitely support it myself.

so if you want to start with only 7k, what are the steps to make that happen?

Beep Boop.

Unpredictable will take over the lead of this. He will create a new thread, starting with 7K for now.
As the new thread will be available very soon-ish, this one will be closed.