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Regarding Beatmap Commissions
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I like it how this was involved with some intentionally repeating this sort of acceptance as well for those who were involved with this are now supporting this thread. X)
Is this confirmation that BN's/QAT's are part of the osu! team? Because for the longest time they have simply been seen as regular community members with some privileges.osu!team wrote:
To this end, we have decided that all members of any osu! team involved in the ranking process (e.g. Beatmap Nominators, Quality Assurance Team, etc) will be explicitly forbidden from undertaking or participating in paid modding, ranking OR beatmapping commissions while they retain their role on the team.
[]
Anyways, an official stance is good. I'm not against it, but I do have some issues that hopefully we can resolve.
Are there any differences between this rule and regular map submission rules? Just asking because you guys are specifically talking about commissions now.osu!team wrote:
So it comes down to this: we ask that all individuals who undertake commissioned work to do so tastefully, with utmost respect given to the license/rights-holders of any works involved in the creation of a beatmap - this includes obtaining proper licensing/clearance for all media/art/etc involved.
Main reason I'm asking is because this rule basically says that as a rule we should have permission to use content involved.Community Rules wrote:
1. Make sure you have permission to use any content involved in your beatmap. This includes songs, videos, hit sounds, graphics, and any other content that isn't your own creation. If you are unsure of where to find content that is free to use, we have a growing library of tracks available at the Featured Artist listing, all 100% licensed for use in osu!.
So here's my question with all things considered. Will the osu!team be taking any measures to enforce this rule? That is to say, will you actively check to make sure that users submitting content are doing so with respect to proper licensing? Should we as mappers have to provide proof that we have the licenses to various songs we upload?
Because it's exceedingly obvious we don't. It's true, you can say "you didn't know any better" and DMCA does protect osu! from being responsible for its users uploading unlicensed content.
But some issues arise.
1. If music companies decide to pursue legal consequences for osu! distributing their music without consent, mappers seem to bear the consequences. That is to say, the osu!team will simply say "We assumed that the mapper had the rigts to upload the song. Since it's clear they don't, they should be the ones you guys should sue, not us."
2. Similarly, if music companies decide to pursue legal consequences for osu! distributing their music without consent, they could also argue that DMCA does not protect osu! from the spirit of the rule. This is the argument of negligence. It's exceedingly clear that 99% of osu content is not licensed. It is also exceedingly clear to my knowledge, that the osu! moderation team does not actively try to remove content that is unlicensed (aside from anime episodes, lol). So will the moderation team going forward, now moderate beatmap submission to ensure content is properly licensed material? Or dos the osu!team have an answer to this potential argument of negligence?
3. If music companies decide to pursue legal consequences for osu! distributing their music without consent, and offering express downloads for those willing to pay (supporter), would mappers be obligated to pay for damages? For example, the profit osu! makes from priority download is a deficit to music companies/producers/artists etc... who make money by getting people to pay for their songs. Also, uploading of unlicensed content on the part of the mapper also contributes to this issue. By allowing the mp3 to be downloaded free, this is another loss of income for artists who charge money for their songs to be downloaded.
Personally, I will cease all mapping commissions officially. But my concerns are now less about commissions and more about simply uploading maps in general. I'm not trying to shade the osu!team, I really think these are legitimate issues we need to consider now more than ever. I've even heard Larto quit osu because he feared legal ramifications due to mapping popular songs.
Adding this:
4. Is there any protection for mappers with regards to these issues? Otherwise I think it's fair to say a lot of mappers who don't know this can happen to them will cease mapping, or may even request their content removed. Furthermore, if a mapper no longer wishes to remain responsible for the beatmap, and requests its removal, are they allowed to? Under current TOS they cannot. But if that is the case, does not the ownership of the beatmap now belong to osu? After all, you cannot blame the mapper for uploading unlicensed content, and also deny the mapper the right to have that content deleted.
4. Is there any protection for mappers with regards to these issues? Otherwise I think it's fair to say a lot of mappers who don't know this can happen to them will cease mapping, or may even request their content removed. Furthermore, if a mapper no longer wishes to remain responsible for the beatmap, and requests its removal, are they allowed to? Under current TOS they cannot. But if that is the case, does not the ownership of the beatmap now belong to osu? After all, you cannot blame the mapper for uploading unlicensed content, and also deny the mapper the right to have that content deleted.
If my understanding of IP law in general is correct, DMCA will protect the owners of any website precisely only if they don't manually check for unlicensed material. If you start checking that then one mistake and you are taken to court, if you don't check then you just need to deal with any DMCA notices you get.
If only all people there were thinking like you, that would be a good step backward that would prevent this game from self destruction.Come[Back]Home wrote:
Wait what? People actually took money to map something? Really makes you look different at those persons. Mapping is supposed to be for the fun part, and not for money or fame. I seriously can't believe it and am truly shocked. So this is what the mapping community has come to? Thats what happens when people get drunk on their fame.
Simple. You're infringing copyright thus violating the ToS, but it's not osu! stuff fault or obligation to check every your submission because they believe in your fair use of the service. In general osu! is protected by DMCA, you're kindly protected by osu! stuff by removing your uploads that was claimed with DMCA. In any case of huge leak in this chain you will be taking all legal implications, but keep in mind that probability meteorite will fall on your house is higher.Monstrata wrote:
Personally, I will cease all mapping commissions officially. But my concerns are now less about commissions and more about simply uploading maps in general. I'm not trying to shade the osu!team, I really think these are legitimate issues we need to consider now more than ever. I've even heard Larto quit osu because he feared legal ramifications due to mapping popular songs.
On the topic- I hope this will end with nicely asking people to remove any notes about commissions on their socials rather than checking legal permissions.
Yes, but according to the DMCA limitations:Sieg wrote:
Simple. You're infringing copyright thus violating the ToS, but it's not osu! stuff fault or obligation to check every your submission because they believe in your fair use of the service. In general osu! is protected by DMCA, you're kindly protected by osu! stuff by removing your uploads that was claimed with DMCA. In any case of huge leak in this chain you will be taking all legal implications, but keep in mind that probability meteorite will fall on your house is higher.Monstrata wrote:
Personally, I will cease all mapping commissions officially. But my concerns are now less about commissions and more about simply uploading maps in general. I'm not trying to shade the osu!team, I really think these are legitimate issues we need to consider now more than ever. I've even heard Larto quit osu because he feared legal ramifications due to mapping popular songs.
On the topic- I hope this will end with nicely asking people to remove any notes about commissions on their socials rather than checking legal permissions.
osu! is only free of blame if it is not aware of infringing activity. Otherwise, if it is aware of such infringing activity, it has an obligation to remove this material.17 U.S. Code § 512 - Limitations on liability relating to material online wrote:
(c) Information Residing on Systems or Networks At Direction of Users.—
(1)In general.—A service provider shall not be liable for monetary relief, or, except as provided in subsection (j), for injunctive or other equitable relief, for infringement of copyright by reason of the storage at the direction of a user of material that resides on a system or network controlled or operated by or for the service provider, if the service provider—
(A)
(i) does not have actual knowledge that the material or an activity using the material on the system or network is infringing;
(ii) in the absence of such actual knowledge, is not aware of facts or circumstances from which infringing activity is apparent; or
(iii) upon obtaining such knowledge or awareness, acts expeditiously to remove, or disable access to, the material;
(B) does not receive a financial benefit directly attributable to the infringing activity, in a case in which the service provider has the right and ability to control such activity; and
(C) upon notification of claimed infringement as described in paragraph (3), responds expeditiously to remove, or disable access to, the material that is claimed to be infringing or to be the subject of infringing activity.
Basically what I'm saying is turning a blind eye is not enough because on paper, the DMCA would theoretically protect osu! But I don't think this will hold in any court of law because the issue of negligence on the part of osu! staff will inevitably become a critical issue. If 99% of the content you upload is unlicensed and you are not doing anything to combat this issue, despite stating that your company is against this practice, then that is negligent practice and you should be held liable since you could have taken more preventative actions.
At least, this is what I am getting. Yes, the chance of this happening is low. I don't think it's impossible though, especially since DMCA's are legitimate and we get them from time to time.
This thread also sets a precedent. The osu!team is now clarifying its position that it is against profitting off of commissioned goods. But in doing so it appears to be turning a blind eye on maps that are not commissioned. Regular maps.
Furthermore, the only income osu! receives is from osu!supporter which only goes to the benefit of osu!staff. This means they are profitting off the creation of maps, as well as the efforts of BNs and QATs who push these maps for ranked. This is an issue IF BN's and QAT's are considered part of the staff, but not an issue if BN and QAT are just part of the community and regular users.
Replace "Mapping" with "Painting" or "Drawing" or "Art" in general.Cherry Blossom wrote:
If only all people there were thinking like you, that would be a good step backward that would prevent this game from self destruction.Come[Back]Home wrote:
Wait what? People actually took money to map something? Really makes you look different at those persons. Mapping is supposed to be for the fun part, and not for money or fame. I seriously can't believe it and am truly shocked. So this is what the mapping community has come to? Thats what happens when people get drunk on their fame.
I believe this is a good thing for the community now and especially in the long run. If there's any reason I think osu! wouldn't exist anymore in the next 20 years or so, it's because of it growing big enough to get into terminal legal trouble. Taking a stance on commissions is a step towards preserving the community's lifespan.
Its really funny osu! rules even bother to bring Featured Artists up lol. There is basically a staff run group called Mapper's Guild that gets first "dibs" on the music that osu! is allegedly buying, but isn't that demotivating for overall mappers not in that group to try and map that content?
And now there are badges for exclusively for that group, so if you are not in it, its better to wait til you are accepted (which may be never) to start mapping the licensed music by osu! so you can get those badges easier.
Then you can take into consideration, especially with the popularization of pishi videos that peppy subsidizes, that now handsome/pishi/nokris/NP/dsco/etc. are in the mapper's guild that every map they release is going to be favorite of the community. So what is the point in making one of your own Featured Artist map?
Their group is pretty exclusive its not like there is any attempt by them to try and encourage people still left over trying to map the Featured Artist tracks, that are similarly left over from the Mapper's guild dibs system, to get better at mapping or help push their content for ranked. Honestly nobody gives 2 fks about those people not in the group trying to map FA obviously, why do you think there would be 0 things in place to help them + exclusive rewards for mapper's guild to just be busy with their work instead of helping anyone else? Epic.
But yeah guys lets use the "licensed" music from random japanese anime's and hope those guys who made it can't read our english website enough to DMCA us and then have a super hypocritical system in place for Featured Artist so no mappers actually want to touch the Featured Artist music.
(not to mention the ranked maps of Featured artist and just the regular uploaded music from the groups has really bad timing so people who can't fix the timing on the maps actually can't bother with the songs at all)
And now there are badges for exclusively for that group, so if you are not in it, its better to wait til you are accepted (which may be never) to start mapping the licensed music by osu! so you can get those badges easier.
Then you can take into consideration, especially with the popularization of pishi videos that peppy subsidizes, that now handsome/pishi/nokris/NP/dsco/etc. are in the mapper's guild that every map they release is going to be favorite of the community. So what is the point in making one of your own Featured Artist map?
Their group is pretty exclusive its not like there is any attempt by them to try and encourage people still left over trying to map the Featured Artist tracks, that are similarly left over from the Mapper's guild dibs system, to get better at mapping or help push their content for ranked. Honestly nobody gives 2 fks about those people not in the group trying to map FA obviously, why do you think there would be 0 things in place to help them + exclusive rewards for mapper's guild to just be busy with their work instead of helping anyone else? Epic.
But yeah guys lets use the "licensed" music from random japanese anime's and hope those guys who made it can't read our english website enough to DMCA us and then have a super hypocritical system in place for Featured Artist so no mappers actually want to touch the Featured Artist music.
(not to mention the ranked maps of Featured artist and just the regular uploaded music from the groups has really bad timing so people who can't fix the timing on the maps actually can't bother with the songs at all)
i agree with bor, mapper's guild is still an elitist concept that doesn't represent what you'd expect from a "community based" game and it's mapping scene even though it isn't entirely relevant to this thread WHOOPS
posted because monstrata brought up DMCA and licensed content
That's a big F to anyone who's already paid $400+ on a commission.
This question still ringing on my head. How is it possible to know its for commission? Should we become spy?Princess Kisses wrote:
No but the can't publicly advertise their commissions thus will be getting a lot less requestsLinada wrote:
there is zero way to know if a mapset is a commission tho, mapper just have to not tell and nobody will know
(Example: there is a BN/QAT live nearby, a mapper requested to rank his/her map, then a player accidentally heard & saw their agreement. Option A: is he supossed to tail the BN/QAT & the mapper? is he gonna get paid after that?
Option B: Let them be) [
This is very good
But I'm still clueless on how will this rules going to affect those who operates the commissions. What's the parameter used to identify a commissioned mapset? There's no solid criteria on defining a commissioned maps other than leaked transaction information. If there's nothing indicating this, parties involved would still shut their mouth up and do this discreetly. This has been brought up many times but I didn't see anyone solving this.
APPEND: Also this could be misused by users to specifically attack member involved in ranking by orchestrating a fake agreement of payment and showing it to the public in order to ban a specific staff from the team. Unless there's a prevention of this, it could happen.
But I'm still clueless on how will this rules going to affect those who operates the commissions. What's the parameter used to identify a commissioned mapset? There's no solid criteria on defining a commissioned maps other than leaked transaction information. If there's nothing indicating this, parties involved would still shut their mouth up and do this discreetly. This has been brought up many times but I didn't see anyone solving this.
APPEND: Also this could be misused by users to specifically attack member involved in ranking by orchestrating a fake agreement of payment and showing it to the public in order to ban a specific staff from the team. Unless there's a prevention of this, it could happen.
Narrator wrote:
That's a big F to anyone who's already paid $400+ on a commission.
No it’s a fat L
Monstrata wrote:
long post
Our terms of service do and always have covered this. Please take responsibility for your own actions. There are many mappers that ask before using content from others. There are many tracks we have cleared for use which aren’t necessarily listed under Featured Artists (you’d be surprised). Saying 99% of content is “unlicenced” (if you’re just looking at FA) may be correct, but I’d argue much more has been acknowledged/approved.
As we tried to make painfully obvious in the original statement, no rules have changed in terms of how we control your uploads (for now; EU rulings may change that). We can’t change rules because we work under existing obligatory laws. Do your own research and decide how you act on this online platform, plese.
bor wrote:
Its really funny osu! rules even bother to bring Featured Artists up lol. There is basically a staff run group called Mapper's Guild that gets first "dibs" on the music that osu! is allegedly buying, but isn't that demotivating for overall mappers not in that group to try and map that content?
Mapper’s Guild was a community effort from the outset. Anyone else is welcome to join or start an effort like this and we will give them suport where possible. There is nothing special about this group – they just started doing stuff and continued on a regular basis (see project loved, which is completely the same). This is how osu! works. Basically everything you see happen is done by the communtiy, not some internal team.
I’d argue against the concept of “dibs” because multiple beatmaps can of course be made for the same tracks. To us it’s giving FA release a bit more traction and showing people how the artist can be mapped. Generally mapper’s guild map like 20% at max of new releases and it doesn’t even happen every time.
Calling it elitist is a cop-out and a disservice to people lookinjg to try new things.
I explained what I meant right below it, and yeah its incredibly obvious that "one can make a map of that same song" but they probably won't because of what I explained prior.peppy wrote:
stuff
also you said:
peppy wrote:
Anyone else is welcome to join or start an effort like this
about joining, its strictly untrue, but this isn't the thread for that.
bor wrote:
I explained what I meant right below it, and yeah its incredibly obvious that "one can make a map of that same song" but they probably won't because of what I explained prior.peppy wrote:
stuff
also you said:peppy wrote:
Anyone else is welcome to join or start an effort like this
about joining, its strictly untrue, but this isn't the thread for that.
well he did say
"Anyone else is welcome to join or start an effort like this and we will give them suport where possible."
however I'm also not very keen on dibs etc for a group of mappers, why not just promote it to everyone? unless that's already the case...
Liiraye wrote:
well he did say
"Anyone else is welcome to join or start an effort like this and we will give them suport where possible." I'm talking about strictly joining the mappers guild, not everyone is welcome to join it, and it is supported by staff via > giving their own channel in X discord server related to staff, badges for people in it
also its been pretty exclusive about who joins from my and many other "qualified" (via the standards they listed on their first promotion post after going public, lol supported by staff before being public xd) people's experience(s)
however I'm also not very keen on dibs etc for a group of mappers, why not just promote it to everyone? unless that's already the case... dibs is in reference to the albums being released to the Mapper's guild before anyone else can see them for FA, they end up pushing maps for ranked internally(being within the guild) before any other mapper can access the FA music.
If you have a better proposal of how to have some beatmaps ready with FA releases without giving away the releases beforehand (we want to have a bit of surprise/anticipation, right?!) then please bring that up elsewhere. This thread is not for discussing how FA/other groups should work.
And if FA won't let you in why not put in the effort to make your own group? Everything starts with effort. We aren't against seeing more interesting mapping teams forming. This used to be a more commonplace thing in the past and it resulted in really creative projects.
And if FA won't let you in why not put in the effort to make your own group? Everything starts with effort. We aren't against seeing more interesting mapping teams forming. This used to be a more commonplace thing in the past and it resulted in really creative projects.
I'm all for this. A map should be made out of creativity, not through money and stuff like that
Monstrata wrote:
Furthermore, the only income osu! receives is from osu!supporter which only goes to the benefit of osu!staff. This means they are profitting off the creation of maps, as well as the efforts of BNs and QATs who push these maps for ranked. This is an issue IF BN's and QAT's are considered part of the staff, but not an issue if BN and QAT are just part of the community and regular users.
If I'm not wrong, I think osu!supporter is legally considered a donation and not a purchase, so there would be no legal issues on that part of the matter
Imagine being top 1k paying someone to map and rank farm maps with only patterns you're good at because you're that bad xDD
what is the point in responding to this? it was just explaining how it worked to someone lol.peppy wrote:
If you have a better proposal of how to have some beatmaps ready with FA releases without giving away the releases beforehand (we want to have a bit of surprise/anticipation, right?!) then please bring that up elsewhere. This thread is not for discussing how FA/other groups should work.
And if FA won't let you in why not put in the effort to make your own group? Everything starts with effort. We aren't against seeing more interesting mapping teams forming. This used to be a more commonplace thing in the past and it resulted in really creative projects.
I posted other issues you have yet responded to about the hypocrisy with this whole thread/statement where you want the music creators permission to use their content, and we have FA which is supposed to be the sole ground for licensed mapping content, but for some reason only mapper's guild is backed up/rewarded by staff for mapping FA content instead of any regular user. Then you say yourself anyone can join it(which is untrue), making people feel like if they wait til they get into the group then they can get the rewards. Or you take a large part of the mapping community who is a fan of most of the mappers in mapper's guild due to the popularization of pishifat's "educational videos", and you ask them to map FA. Why should they when their favorite maps of the songs are already out? Not to mention many of the already FA songs that are out are borderline unmappable especially for standard, but lol.
as for the comment on other things,
So BN and QAT are part of osu!team or you could say "staff" no? but we want to pretend like all the songs being pushed as official content in osu! that isn't licensed is something osu! doesn't know about?osu!team wrote:
we have decided that all members of any osu! team involved in the ranking process (e.g. Beatmap Nominators, Quality Assurance Team, etc)
is it REALLY that hard to say that the origin of this problem is Sotarks? Isn't restricting him (again) the easiest solution?
Smug Nanachi
bor wrote:
Though it's thanks to pishi and MG we have that nice stream of great quality maps, really huge effort from them. Still I agree with the point that there is no really sense to pick music from FA if you not in MG unless you really desperate to map exact track. Not because rewards but mainly because of releases availability and support through ranking process which currently in the wild as none as for unlicensed content, wish this was on the "team" priorities radar as well as fighting with commissions.
noh3oCharles wrote:
is it REALLY that hard to say that the origin of this problem is Sotarks? Isn't restricting him (again) the easiest solution?
Yes, TOS has covered this. But there has been little, short of nuking anime episodes, that is done to combat unlicensed material. I'm rather skeptical of "many mappers" asking to use content before uploading maps. Especially when it's mp3s. Backgrounds/wallpapers there's a healthy amount of mappers who try to give credit which is good. But it's the mp3 we're more concerned about. Maps are built around the song, not the background after all. I'm also interested in why we don't have a list of "cleared" tracks then, if there are "many tracks that are cleared for use". I'm also interested why we continue to allow beatmania/konami/etc.. songs to be uploaded and ranked even though these sonds were blanket dmca'ed in the past, but this is probably something we'll want to push with a new Ranking Criteria change.peppy wrote:
Our terms of service do and always have covered this. Please take responsibility for your own actions. There are many mappers that ask before using content from others. There are many tracks we have cleared for use which aren’t necessarily listed under Featured Artists (you’d be surprised). Saying 99% of content is “unlicenced” (if you’re just looking at FA) may be correct, but I’d argue much more has been acknowledged/approved.Monstrata wrote:
long post
As we tried to make painfully obvious in the original statement, no rules have changed in terms of how we control your uploads (for now; EU rulings may change that). We can’t change rules because we work under existing obligatory laws. Do your own research and decide how you act on this online platform, plese.
Basically, what is to stop me from reporting every map currently in qualified, and claiming that the mapper does not possess a license or right to use the mp3 they uploaded for their map. If the mapper is unable to give evidence, aren't osu!staff obligated to nuke the map? Because it is therefore uploading infringing material no?
Put simply, how would uploading an unlicensed mp3 be different from uploading an unlicensed anime episode at that point. What if I had contacted Funimation and had received the rights to upload that Attack on Titan Episode 1 beatmap lol. I'm just raising this as a foil because osu!staff was certain in their decision to nuke that map (which is fair) but seems to turn a blind eye on the same thing being done if it's just an mp3.
peppy wrote:
There are many mappers that ask before using content from others.
lol okay
nice boy
> peppy create osu!
> peppy added osu!team
> osu!team added community
> "some guy" joined osu!
> "some guy" added "Beatmap Commissions"
peppy: "what the heck, I even only made a profit from donation and selling stickers"
osu!team: "wtf"
community: "lol wut"
> peppy, osu!team, community left the group
> peppy added osu!team
> osu!team added community
> "some guy" joined osu!
> "some guy" added "Beatmap Commissions"
peppy: "what the heck, I even only made a profit from donation and selling stickers"
osu!team: "wtf"
community: "lol wut"
> peppy, osu!team, community left the group
JMC wrote:
> peppy create osu!
> peppy added osu!team
> osu!team added community
> "some guy" joined osu!
> "some guy" added "Beatmap Commissions"
peppy: "what the heck, I even only made a profit from donation and selling stickers"
osu!team: "wtf"
community: "lol wut"
> peppy, osu!team, community left the group
+1
DeletedUser_7131254
osu!team wrote:
we have decided that all members of any osu! team involved in the ranking process (e.g. Beatmap Nominators, Quality Assurance Team, etc) will be explicitly forbidden from undertaking or participating in paid modding, ranking OR beatmapping commissions while they retain their role on the team.
wiki wrote:
The Beatmap Nominators, commonly abbreviated as BN, is a group in charge of beatmap nomination. As of 2014-08-22, they are no longer a part of the staff.
not bad.
Post says any osu!team, not specifically staffLavender wrote:
osu!team wrote:
we have decided that all members of any osu! team involved in the ranking process (e.g. Beatmap Nominators, Quality Assurance Team, etc) will be explicitly forbidden from undertaking or participating in paid modding, ranking OR beatmapping commissions while they retain their role on the team.wiki wrote:
The Beatmap Nominators, commonly abbreviated as BN, is a group in charge of beatmap nomination. As of 2014-08-22, they are no longer a part of the staff.
I feel like the limit for beatmap submissions (so you don't have to wait a full 4 weeks to upload another map) it should be raised to like 5 or 6 and make it lower than 10 to avoid spammers. I feel like this would be nice to have.
Love how they addressed it as casual and not pay to win, I'm not against paid mapping at all as I can see it as a profitable market but it might not have a place on osu yknow
Yeaehaaeaah, Armin. What regarding beatmap commissions said