Disclaimer
This proposal is not put forward against any individual.

Since BN rules are not amendable by users who are not a member of the QAT/BN teams, this proposal is worded in a way it is capable of becoming an RC.

Rule

This rule only applies to current members of QAT and BN teams. If a map of A (a member of BN/QAT) is nominated by B (another member of BN/QAT), the map in question is not rankable, unless one month has elapsed since B's nomination, to the extent that B's map is also nominated by A within one month before or after B's nomination in question. This is to prevent abuse of public power for private purposes.

Examples
1. A's map is nominated by B on 5th May. The map is rankable, until B's map is nominated by A on 7th May. Then A's map becomes unrankable until 5th June, and B's map becomes unrankable until 7th June.
2. A's map is nominated (qualified) by B on 5th May, seven days later (12th May), it is ranked. Then B's map is nominated by A on 12th May. A's map is not unrankable because it is ranked already. However, B's map becomes unrankable until 12th June.
3. A's map is nominated (qualified) by B on 5th May, then B's map is nominated (also qualified) by A on 6th May. A's and B's maps are unrankable (disqualifiable whilst they are still in the qualified section) until 5th June and 6th June respectively.
4. A's map is nominated by B on 5th May. B's map is nominated by A on 6th June. Both maps are not affected by this rule.

Rationale
The rationale is that public functions shall not be abused for private purposes. Certain extent of circle jerk is permissible, because it is deemed a reasonable exercise of power, and thereby the one month restriction.

Discuss
1. whether you agree with this proposal and the reasons for your disagreement/agreement;
2. whether you agree with the two one month restriction (there are two, one being that after circlejerk, the map becomes unrankable for a month; another being that circlejerk within one month makes the map unrankable) and the reasons for your disagreement/agreement.


EDIT: Although this proposal's fate seems to be decided, I want to defend it because it is not one that is so unreasonable:

To continue my post. (and my apology for sounding like a pompous ass as some people call me, I don't speak like this but when I write a whole post I just can't control)

Many BNs (and some members of the community) find this proposal rather irrational. Please allow me to explain. And whilst reading it, please forget that you are a BN(or QAT), but an indiscriminable member of the lot of this community. Because this proposal is not for the benefits of one particular class of people, but for the good of the general community.


Equality
Ordinary users cannot nominate maps. Some of them, who are relatively new or not famed, may struggle to find a BN to achieve their dream of ranking their first map. They may send ten inbox messages per day, for a week, until they have contacted all person capable of pushing their maps forward, and, no answer; or they may in-game PM some of the BNs, and be ignored. Some of them are lucky, or maybe their maps despite being their first ones are very good quality, they have the fortune to get a 'yes' from a BN, and that makes their day. You, indeed, have experienced this phase. Helpless, you have felt the struggle and sorrow.

BNs, in the contrary, have one button more available to them. And this button changes their fate. The nomination button. They can bubble for bubble. They can qualify for qualify. After becoming a BN, I believe few are still experiencing the struggle and sorrow I mentioned above.

I do not mean to put forward this proposal to 'punish' the BNs who nominate other BNs' maps. My intention is never any similar to this. I believe that BN's nomination power should be 'regulated'. 'Punish' is the wrong word; 'discourage' is even less accurate. Let us leave this game aside for a moment and get back to the real life. Although we all come from different countries, we share one thing: there are law which regulates people of power.
Civil servants such as policemen are binded by those law, so they are not benefitted by their privilage. They do not, simply because they have the power to arrest (and the power not to arrest), exculpate their colleagues when they have committed a crime. They are regulated by the law, and should they break them, there will be consequences. People working in the finance industry do not benefit from the information they receive from their job. They are, as well, regulated by the law, that they cannot use their confidential knowledge gained from working at the company to make a profit. They are all equal to other non-civil servants and non-bankers in the game of crime and finance. If a policeman breaks the law, he is seen to be as culpable, if not more; if a banker benefits from the confidential information he has to use it personally, the finance industry will collapse, because invertors will always be disadvantaged.

Osu! does not have such 'law' (rule in the context of a game). If we cover our eyes from this brute fact, it is not unlike we are saying "All animals are equal some are more equal than others". The purpose of this proposal is that BNs are exercising public power. As such, their private side (mapping) should not overlap with their public side (nominating). Their maps can still be nominated without being unrankable for a month, as long as they do not 'nominate for nominate'. That is, if a BN keeps his private side from his public side, he has done no wrong.


Incentive
Then some people may say 'then BNs will have no perks being BNs. They cannot bubble for bubble, it is like policemen receving no salary.' My answer to this is simple. 'Bubble for bubble' is not the only thing you get from being a BN, although it is the only public function a BN gets. A BN is more exposed to the community and therefore are more famous; is more respected because they have more power; their maps get more attention because they are known to people. I disagree with Kurai that the 'bubble ofr bubble' problem is ancient. This problem did not exist before because BATs and MATs in the past observe the convention that they should not 'bubble for bubble'. Some extent of circlejerk existed maybe because they were of the same nationality or they were good friends. But these were not matters as to their only public function -- to nominate maps. If in the past so many people were willing to become BATs and QATs, why do you think now all BNs are after the 'bubble for bubble' perk to become BNs? If so, are we not depreciating and devaluing the nature of BNs? Should BNs all about this kind of utility? Of course no. But the system apparently makes all of us think this is what BNs are all about.

Voluntary Work
Some also say BNs are voluntary workers. This does not entail that their use of power should not be regulated. Please allow me to continue to use those real life examples. Voluntary workers' power is still regulated. Even unpaid UN (United Nations) interns (they are not paid) will not be permitted to use their power to make a gain.
Moreover, the voluntary nature of BN means one very important thing. The whole job is voluntary. If one is not satisfied that his power is regulated, one will not become a BN at all. Only those who are enthusiastic enough will become BNs, or those who are satisfied that they gain fame at least from conducting their BN work, will become BNs. Is that not a better consequence? Is it not better than those BNs who work because they get utilitarian perks of making their maps ranked quicker?

I am Sorry
I am sorry. My apology to all BNs who are angered. My apology to all people who find this totally unreasonable. My apology for causing such drama. Many say I have the goodwill to put forward this proposal, but I am walking on the wrong route. I am sincerely sorry. I lament the inequalty between the powerful and the non-powerful. I came back as a mapper, and I reflected on how hard was it to rank my first map -- Luv Letter. I looked at what the situation is now, and couldn't believe it has not bettered, but worsened.

Now, come back to this game and QATs and BNs, you are no longer an ordinary individual out of the lot of this game. You are privileged. You are authoritative. And then think back how hard you ranked your first map. Do you think something needs to be changed? Do you think the inequality is sort of the source of discouragement to new mappers like you once were? Does power have to have an limit smoewhere? I understand that this proposal is soon to be repealed. But think again what we should do now.

no more sotarks maps aww man

glad i didn't get accepted :hyperdab:

edit : actually, two weeks seems fine. if people want to speedrank weeb songs then circlejerk seems good

Isnt it easier to just force people to not nominate maps of the same users more than once per month?

hi-mei wrote:

Isnt it easier to just force people to not nominate maps of the same users more than once per month?

the purpose of this proposal is not to limit how many maps one can rank per month, but to limit the arbitrary abuse of power.
And apparently, the QAT and BNs are not doing anything to prevent that. I guess there should be one person to speak out and see if people agree.

Everyone will be in support of this because circle jerking seems unfair, until they get bn k_hand

I understand your frustration but what you get out of the mapping scene is what you put into it and BNs tend to put a lot into it. So, they can get something out of it too. I mean it wouldn't really be a huge deal if such a thing was implemented but I really don't see the point. Adding an arbitrary delay does nothing to actually fix a problem (if there is one)

obviously im biased as a BN

EDIT - biggest problem I have with the proposal is that the 'issue' with 'circkejerking' is that time spent nominating a bns map could be spent nominating a non-bn map. But this proposal doesn't actually do anything about that. the BN will still be nominating another bns map, just at a delay. So all this proposal does it make it look fair on the surface, while actually just wasting everyones time.

I see how you're trying to discourage blatant b4bs here but this is actually just placing an unneeded burden on bns who use m4m as a way of getting mods. If 2 bns m4m, chances are that since they're bns theyre going to have a solid understanding of mapping and good mapping skills to support that. So even if both maps being nominated are perfectly okay, you're really just holding these maps back from getting ranked for pretty much no reason.

I think something should be done about a guaranteed exchange of bubbles, because no bn should be pressured to nominate anything they don't want to. There are far better ways to handle this, such as
- restricting nominations between nominator A & B for 1 month or so, after they nominate eachother maps
- moderating how many bn maps vs. non bn maps a bn mods
- etc.

Sure you can call me biased because I'm a bn lol, but right now your propositon just causes unfairness in the ranking process.

If I'm reading this correctly, on top of it not truly fixing any apparent unfairness that may happen - this could be easily evaded

Like, instead of just A and B you could have A nominates C, B nominates A, C nominates B. The bigger that circle gets, the harder it'd be to keep track of, or just even do accidentally on the BN's end.

While I can see where it's coming from, I don't think this proposal as it is would really, genuinely, help.

bandaids can't fix a broken leg

can you save this proposal for next year, i just joined

on a more serious note, what is this proposal trying to solve?

i think 1 month is too much

"circlejerking" isnt a problem at all for a number of reasons:

1. the job of bng is to push forward quality mapsets, and bn's are typically really good at making quality mapsets, so bn's pushing each other's maps is good for the game
2. bn's get literally nothing for all the volunteer work they do to promote quality content to the ranked section, b4b'ing is the only thing close to an incentive they have for being in the bng (but again, most don't need that anyway bc their maps are usually easy to rank whether they're bn or not)
3. as an extension of the first point, it typically doesn't take very long to check a set made by a bn. it's usually really easy for a bn to fit a b4b icon into their schedule without it being detrimental to the rest of their bn work

what is there to even worry about?

"bn's only rank each other's maps"
you can take a look at qualified section at any point in time and there's always more non-bn sets there than there are bn sets.

"bn's are circlejerking shitty maps to rank"
bn maps can be vetted by community just the same as other mappers' maps, maybe start pushing back against them in qualified if you think their maps are so shitty

"new mappers can't get their maps ranked at all"
first of all, this isn't true, as shown by the massive list of rookies mca just put out. and bn's were all once new mappers, too, and they didn't have such issue. maybe those new mappers that can't rank their maps should put more work in to contributing to the community instead of bitching on reddit/modhelp/twitter/wherever. a big part of the ranking process is becoming someone who people will actually want to help, and most people don't want to help idiots that whine about circlejerking all the time.


even if circlejerking is an issue, your proposal is nonsense:

1. such a system effectively results in bn's losing out on potential bn's for their own sets. why would anyone ever want to be a bn when it makes their maps harder to get ranked
2. it's virtually impossible for higherups to ensure people are obeying the rules. bn's pump out a lot of maps, and with each map creating a wait time, qat would be spending countless hours tracking wait times and scouring qualified. they also have no incentive to do this, since qat also "benefit from circlejerking". this is a massive, unproductive workload for people that have far better things to do with their time.
3. arbitrary wait times only delay issues instead of fixing them, bn's can always just wait out the time period to circlejerk, or even just extend their circlejerk as large as they need so they don't get flagged by the system as circlejerking

trying to stop people from doing the only thing that makes their countless hours of volunteer work remotely worth the effort is rly, rly stupid

Your heart is in a good place. I like that you want to encourage the BNG to reach out and look for more maps to nominate outside of their social circle.
However, the problem here is that you're trying to encourage them to do so by disincentivizing ranking other nominators' maps in general, since this proposal would then cause them to lose one potential nominator on any given map they have ready to rank.

If we wish to encourage people to nominate maps not based on who mapped them, but based on the merit of the map, this is focusing on the wrong thing, and it is the wrong direction to go. All I can see this doing is penalizing active nominators by preventing them from nominating maps that may very well deserve nomination, and penalizing active BN/mappers by discouraging BNs from taking their requests.

Penalizing bns for nominating appropriate for ranked sets seems a bit unfair. Also I'll remind that if you feel someone from bng\qat is abusing something you can report it here.

The relationship between the growth of non-bn maps nominated and restricting BNs to nominate other bns' needs to be substantiated. If bns are restricted to nominate their fellows' maps, will they then, really nominate more non-bn maps? Maybe no. In my opinion, bns should be encouraged to check, nominate or just put more effort more non-bn maps instead of being confined by this demoralizing restricting frame.


Additionally, it is betraying the idea of the entire modding ecosystem to define a map questionable/not able to be qualified just by who nominated it. Whether the map is qualified for being ranked should be oriented at the content of the map itself, I mean, from a more technical perspective.


Circle-jerk does only happen amongst BNs, but the whole community. From post above, there are some ideas on setting restrictions on the proportion of non-bn maps nominated. However, even if such restriction is implemented, there will always be alternative solutions: BNs could find their close non-bn friends to play the non-bn roles.

Most importantly, in this proposal, circle-jerk was pre-defiend as an abuse of power, which needs more elaboration and reasoning as well. Not all the people agree with that, as some posts in this thread have aready illustrated.

Hi, I have one word for this proposal, and that word is:

absolutely not what the fuck

I'm actually in full support of this! Except instead of a 1 month cool down I feel 24 hours is a bit more justified. Agree with everything else though!

Instead of trying to prevent people to act one way, it would probably be more efficient to encourage them to do the opposite. For example: encourage people to mod maps regardless of who the mapper is by making it more rewarding (iirc peppy planned to have an algorithm that chose a map to mod for you, and if you modded it, you got more kudosu. Of course no one really cares about kudosu nowadays, but that does not mean that this system could not be improved to fit our current needs).

This problem is ancient, it already existed when I joined the game back in 2009, and I don't think, from my experience, that it is possible to stop people from favouring their friends or using their nomination priviledges for their own benefit. Just make it worth for people to mod/nominate maps, regardless of who the mapper is, and you'll already have an improvement.

bringing incentives for people to rank non bn maps instead wpuld be a better option than punishing bns for nominating bn maps

yehaj agree with Mr. Omar.

Monstrata wrote:

I'm actually in full support of this! Except instead of a 1 month cool down I feel 24 hours is a bit more justified. Agree with everything else though!

I personally would prefer 25 hours since that's much closer to the natural sedated human's circadian rhythm thanks
reason? - osu is a game unaffected by daylight so its circadian rhythm would be 25h if it were a human

UndeadCapulet wrote:

"circlejerking" isnt a problem at all for a number of reasons:

1. the job of bng is to push forward quality mapsets, and bn's are typically really good at making quality mapsets, so bn's pushing each other's maps is good for the game
2. bn's get literally nothing for all the volunteer work they do to promote quality content to the ranked section, b4b'ing is the only thing close to an incentive they have for being in the bng (but again, most don't need that anyway bc their maps are usually easy to rank whether they're bn or not)
3. as an extension of the first point, it typically doesn't take very long to check a set made by a bn. it's usually really easy for a bn to fit a b4b icon into their schedule without it being detrimental to the rest of their bn work

what is there to even worry about?

"bn's only rank each other's maps"
you can take a look at qualified section at any point in time and there's always more non-bn sets there than there are bn sets.

"bn's are circlejerking shitty maps to rank"
bn maps can be vetted by community just the same as other mappers' maps, maybe start pushing back against them in qualified if you think their maps are so shitty

"new mappers can't get their maps ranked at all"
first of all, this isn't true, as shown by the massive list of rookies mca just put out. and bn's were all once new mappers, too, and they didn't have such issue. maybe those new mappers that can't rank their maps should put more work in to contributing to the community instead of bitching on reddit/modhelp/twitter/wherever. a big part of the ranking process is becoming someone who people will actually want to help, and most people don't want to help idiots that whine about circlejerking all the time.


even if circlejerking is an issue, your proposal is nonsense:

1. such a system effectively results in bn's losing out on potential bn's for their own sets. why would anyone ever want to be a bn when it makes their maps harder to get ranked
2. it's virtually impossible for higherups to ensure people are obeying the rules. bn's pump out a lot of maps, and with each map creating a wait time, qat would be spending countless hours tracking wait times and scouring qualified. they also have no incentive to do this, since qat also "benefit from circlejerking". this is a massive, unproductive workload for people that have far better things to do with their time.
3. arbitrary wait times only delay issues instead of fixing them, bn's can always just wait out the time period to circlejerk, or even just extend their circlejerk as large as they need so they don't get flagged by the system as circlejerking

trying to stop people from doing the only thing that makes their countless hours of volunteer work remotely worth the effort is rly, rly stupid

Agree

UndeadCapulet wrote:

"bn's are circlejerking shitty maps to rank"
bn maps can be vetted by community just the same as other mappers' maps, maybe start pushing back against them in qualified if you think their maps are so shitty

Three of the most downvoted maps in osu! history were mapped by a BN and ranked within the same month two weeks of each other this year. Do you really think there were no community push back for those maps? While I'm not here to argue if those maps belong in the ranked section or not, it's clear that what the community thinks doesn't actually matter in many cases.


As for the proposal itself, I agree with what Kurai said; there's really not much for a BN to gain modding non-BN maps outside of keeping their BN status and padding mods so they can get a nomination for their map (outside of personal gratification anyway), so some incentive for modding more non-BN maps would probably be the better solution (A bonus for helping/pushing new mappers for rank, gaining more "reward" for modding maps made by different mappers over maps by the same mapper, or something like that).

Edit: Best Friends was ranked in April apparently ops.

The thing is even BNs known for circlejerking or whatever tend to nominate more non bn maps than bn maps anyway. Without any specific stats this is all just assumptions.

The entire system is a mess, why not let any mapper to love their own sets?, No pp, only rank list by map, all people playing for fun.

I support this proposal, the problem exist, no one will hide the sun with a finger.

Maybe the restrictions described here will help to avoid the abuse, or will not.
It require to do a simulation to know the possible result, and not assume that it will works or not (I say it because UC saying that delay time does not work with not proofs... Usually in dynamic systems, delays are very very relevant)

CXu wrote:

Three of the most downvoted maps in osu! history were mapped by a BN and ranked within the same month two weeks of each other this year. Do you really think there were no community push back for those maps? While I'm not here to argue if those maps belong in the ranked section or not, it's clear that what the community thinks doesn't actually matter in many cases.

.

its not really the community that's downvote spamming maps, usually there is a big mapper drama and it tends to make the one map related to the drama receive a bunch of downvotes. Also even if it wasn't related to drama it wouldn't be a testament to this proposal seeing how many more of these maps being proposed to be unrankable have no issues in user rating.

UndeadCapulet wrote:

"circlejerking" isnt a problem at all for a number of reasons:

1. the job of bng is to push forward quality mapsets, and bn's are typically really good at making quality mapsets, so bn's pushing each other's maps is good for the game
2. bn's get literally nothing for all the volunteer work they do to promote quality content to the ranked section, b4b'ing is the only thing close to an incentive they have for being in the bng (but again, most don't need that anyway bc their maps are usually easy to rank whether they're bn or not)
3. as an extension of the first point, it typically doesn't take very long to check a set made by a bn. it's usually really easy for a bn to fit a b4b icon into their schedule without it being detrimental to the rest of their bn work

what is there to even worry about?

"bn's only rank each other's maps"
you can take a look at qualified section at any point in time and there's always more non-bn sets there than there are bn sets.

"bn's are circlejerking shitty maps to rank"
bn maps can be vetted by community just the same as other mappers' maps, maybe start pushing back against them in qualified if you think their maps are so shitty

"new mappers can't get their maps ranked at all"
first of all, this isn't true, as shown by the massive list of rookies mca just put out. and bn's were all once new mappers, too, and they didn't have such issue. maybe those new mappers that can't rank their maps should put more work in to contributing to the community instead of bitching on reddit/modhelp/twitter/wherever. a big part of the ranking process is becoming someone who people will actually want to help, and most people don't want to help idiots that whine about circlejerking all the time.


even if circlejerking is an issue, your proposal is nonsense:

1. such a system effectively results in bn's losing out on potential bn's for their own sets. why would anyone ever want to be a bn when it makes their maps harder to get ranked
2. it's virtually impossible for higherups to ensure people are obeying the rules. bn's pump out a lot of maps, and with each map creating a wait time, qat would be spending countless hours tracking wait times and scouring qualified. they also have no incentive to do this, since qat also "benefit from circlejerking". this is a massive, unproductive workload for people that have far better things to do with their time.
3. arbitrary wait times only delay issues instead of fixing them, bn's can always just wait out the time period to circlejerk, or even just extend their circlejerk as large as they need so they don't get flagged by the system as circlejerking

trying to stop people from doing the only thing that makes their countless hours of volunteer work remotely worth the effort is rly, rly stupid

As much as I agree but:

"bn's are circlejerking shitty maps to rank"
bn maps can be vetted by community just the same as other mappers' maps, maybe start pushing back against them in qualified if you think their maps are so shitty

This is the real reason why bn circlejerk or just friend nominating is a problem, they look past the quality of the map and simply nominate it. There of course is no proof for that but it's fairly obvious in some cases. You know that vetted by community is not a thing though, the community has 0 vote and for such cases we're on the mercy of qat being brave enough to step in.

I feel like there should be some sort of a rule in which a mapper can't get any same bn from a previous map of his that got ranked. For example: Lasse and Mir nominate a map from pishifat. Next map they can't nominate it and it gets nominated by lets say -mo- and mao. 3rd map lasse and mir have right to nominate the map. This suggestion is to ensure that mapper's maps are checked by a wider community. It may more easily lead to BNs with no affiliation to the mapper, without any bias, judge the map and push it for ranked.

To me it doesn't make any sense to just keep calling one guy for each of your maps that will nominate no matter what cus they're friends. BNs can not get in trouble for that unless they confess or leak somehow which is the source of the problem. It could also be that they're just unconsciously biased, being unable to spot issues within the map.

lol what?

bor wrote:

CXu wrote:

Three of the most downvoted maps in osu! history were mapped by a BN and ranked within the same month two weeks of each other this year. Do you really think there were no community push back for those maps? While I'm not here to argue if those maps belong in the ranked section or not, it's clear that what the community thinks doesn't actually matter in many cases.

.

its not really the community that's downvote spamming maps, usually there is a big mapper drama and it tends to make the one map related to the drama receive a bunch of downvotes. Also even if it wasn't related to drama it wouldn't be a testament to this proposal seeing how many more of these maps being proposed to be unrankable have no issues in user rating.

If not part of the community, who is downvoting? Dismissing part of the community because "mapper drama" is what I mean by the fact that it doesn't actually matter what they think. Not everyone in a community will agree on something, but it should be pretty clear which part of the community holds more power in the discussion around those particular maps.

Also, I was responding directly to the one point UndeadCapulet made about "bn's circlejerking shitty maps" (that I quoted); my opinion on the proposal itself is the 2nd paragraph in my post.

that whole friend nominating thing has 2 issues.
first:
it isn't actually true for every map. believe me, i've tried getting all of my friends to nominate retarded meme maps and they don't.
second:
if bns nominate "objectively terrible" maps because it's b4b or whatever, they do get punished. see: pp compilation, absolute soul etc.

i know it hurts but if you can't rank maps with the 70+ bns we have currently there's something wrong with your maps, not the system

There are 2 problems I see.

1. BNs could use more time for newer mappers.

Right now the time is not used equally at all, and I think they should have the same chance of getting BN check as the popular mapper or other BNs.
Yes many rookie mappers are getting checks but not nearly as much as other "relevant" people. They will not learn if you "don't have time right now" and then go and check another easy to rank set from <insert popular name here>. If you applied to BNG for b4bs and with the mind to push your maps forward then you should reconsider.

2. Maps from popular mappers are not getting equal treatment modding wise.

There are many maps from rookies that get mods on things that popular maps don't, mostly emphasis, angles and jump spikes.
I have seen same stuff in popular maps but the mappers can get away with a lot by just saying "it's fine" and it gets resolved.
Newer mappers have to explain a lot, and their maps get overmodded too because there is the bias that their map is just not so good.

That leads to maps from popular mappers being undermodded, I have not seen missing hitsounds in rookie's ranked map yet I think, but I have seen a few popular mappers' maps ranked with missing hitsounds, why did that not come through? Meanwhile myself and some other people I knew have been checked for hitsounds countless times to ENSURE it's perfect which is GOOD, but you should put the same effort in popular mappers' maps. They also need modding, even if the set is very good, they should be modded more, treat people equally.


Generally while newer mapper are getting visibility, many of them don't or they do it few times A YEAR. Yeah that is true, it's not like you, they can't chat up a BN and expect them to check something, not even if they ask for a check in a MONTH IN ADVANCE, literally anytime in a month is fine, just take 10 minutes and look at the map and help me. But "full on requests" "no time". This is just simply not true and while I understand that BNs work a lot, I don't see how you can't spend those minutes to check someone's map.
Also let's face it, you check a map that is just a basic tv size anime and you will not get impressed and not care, but you could rank the same map if it was from a popular mapper.



UndeadCapulet -> trying to stop people from doing the only thing that makes their countless hours of volunteer work remotely worth the effort is rly, rly stupid

You volunteer for said work, if you expect something should be given to you in return then you are in the wrong mind, you literally have big power.
Use it to promote new mappers instead of spending time on "bns pumping out lots of maps", trust me, other people are also pumping out lots of maps, why do they not deserve the same chance to get a check from a BNG member, because they are more troublesome to rank? So what, it's the job you volunteered for, you did not volunteer to rank popular maps only and get your maps forward. There are lots of good maps not going forward because of lack of visibility.

But I do agree on the proposal being a bit nonsensic, since it will just stop good maps flowing out (although they should be checked more as I mentioned earlier). The incentive should be spending more time on rookies than just popular mappers, stopping people from nominating popular mappers or same people maps will not do any good.

Maridius said "This is the real reason why bn circlejerk or just friend nominating is a problem, they look past the quality of the map and simply nominate it. "
This is very true. I wish there was more clarity brought to this point, rookies maps get stuff in their maps modded that popular mappers don't because of the bias. Emphasis and Spacing issues are often also ignored in popular maps meanwhile rookie maps have tons of mods for that.

Think of a proposal of how to get BNG to check more of the rookie maps instead of clinging on to easy to rank mapsets.
Alo I have no idea who checks what maps etc so it's not personal against anyone.

I have no good solution for how to make this work, but I know my goal with joining BNG is to help rookies get out there. I've been in their place and I know the grim reality of their situation. Same guys you ask to check the map saying they have no time or full on schedules but they rank maps from same person 2-3 times a month, that does not imply you don't have the time, you just prefer to rank a map that is easy to rank.

How many times have we seen countless BNs in one mapset modding, it's enough with 2, you can go check other maps, that did not get a BN for months yet. Maybe it's not as interesting, maybe the mapper is not your friend, but is it not what you actually volunteered for. No one else has the power to help the people that have no exposure, only you as a BNG member. Please spend more time on rookie mappers, the popular mappers will find a BN ANYWAY in a matter of hours.

One solution could be giving BNG some kind of "reward" for actually spending time and quality modding. Ranking an easy set is nothing difficult, you go in and mod few things but they don't take you lots of time. Why not give the members that spend time and work to help the mappers that need it something back?

Also like someone else said, instead of blocking some way to act, encourage to do something else. That I hope will work, and I hope someone very smart will find a good solution soon. Make it worth for people to mod/nominate regardless of who the mapper is.

Or I don't know maybe make some kind of queue? A group of BN's could put maps they check in a queue instead of qualifying it or modding, they could just quickly check the map, and if the map passes some kind of quality check it could go to a queue in which BNG members are modding the maps in order, that's in addition to normal modding and qualifying, this could switch some of the work time to focusing on the queued maps, as all of them would be quickly checked first to ensure they meet some kind of quality.

1. You have a map and you get mods for it, you hitsound it and basically have a mapset "done". How good it is, you don't know yet.

2. You ask a BN to check for queue and if the BN deems it worthy he doesn't have to mod or bubble or anything, he can just put the map in some kind of "queue" that would have maps in some kind of order, so BNs can just go to the forum and see the maps, and let's say the first 5 maps have priority so they get modded before other stuff.

3. The maps already in there can be picked by any BN for check in the next few days and the map is then "taken" so to speak, to ensure BNs are checking more maps than just the ones they like everytime.

4. The map gets modded by the BN and you work together to make the map suitable for ranking quality wise.

That could be a core idea for a good form. BNs could get some kind of reward from participating in said queue and it would ensure more maps from different mappers are getting ranked, I don't think popular mappers that get mods and bns would bother having their maps put there, the queue system would also ensure everyone gets equal chance regardless of who they are.

Wowza polack that's a big wall of text.

I just came here to say this is a terrible idea and you probably shoulda ran it by some people before unleashing it upon the masses to argue and tussle about on.

Oh and circlejerking isn't an issue lmao. Bigger problem is speedranking and the lack of quality that is drawn from it. That's already handled on a case by case basis though.

Yeah the circlejerk is not the problem, the problem is the same people speedranking stuff because the quality suffers from it as I said, stuff that is modded in rookie maps is not modded in those maps.

People talking about giving an incentive to bubbling newer mapper's stuff, and I agree. We shouldn't punish BN's for B4B, but rather reward them for bubbling maps from mappers with little to no ranked maps.

I was thinking we could make a leaderboard for BNs. Not like the spreadsheet thing from the BAT days, as I don't believe you should be penalized for making mistakes when you bubble/qualify a set. BNs are humans like the rest of us, and everyone makes mistakes. It's also a video game, people take this way too seriously sometimes.

The incentive for playing this game is just having fun, which for most people is seeing their rank improve. For mappers, I would say ranking a map is a reward because you expose your content for tens of thousands to see/play. Meanwhile, what is the reward for being a BN? When you download a map, there is nowhere to see who nominated the set (unless mapper puts in the description). Until recently, BNs didn't even have a tag on their profile. As a BN, you are pushing other people's sets to ranked, with basically no reward, even mentally.

I'd love for someone more knowledgeable on this, as I'm not sure why the system is as it is. What was the point of keeping BN stuff hush-hush? Knowing someone's a BN, and being able to know how good of a BN they are sounds interesting to me, and I think a lot of mappers would think so as well.

Having the BAT spreadsheet was stressful, because it made it like work, where if you messed up, there were consequences (e.g. getting removed from BAT). If we made it a leaderboard style thing, if implemented properly I think it would make it so BNs strive to try and get into the top "ranks". It could have a positive-only score system, where you get a base amount of points for nominating any map, and more points for doing certain things, like nominating a newer mapper's map, or nominating an artist not mapped/ranked in the game yet. (Obviously I haven't made a system for this cuz it's just an idea)

The intention for this is to make being a BN fun, with the leaderboard being the incentivize to strive to improve vs other BNs, while a positive points system would incentvize themi do things that they normally wouldn't do (check newer mapper sets, bubble unconventional maps, maps above 7* that arent just PP jumps)

I'd love to know what people think about something like this, because I think it could work *if* implemented well.

Shiguma wrote:

People talking about giving an incentive to bubbling newer mapper's stuff, and I agree. We shouldn't punish BN's for B4B, but rather reward them for bubbling maps from mappers with little to no ranked maps.

I was thinking we could make a leaderboard for BNs. Not like the spreadsheet thing from the BAT days, as I don't believe you should be penalized for making mistakes when you bubble/qualify a set. BNs are humans like the rest of us, and everyone makes mistakes. It's also a video game, people take this way too seriously sometimes.

The incentive for playing this game is just having fun, which for most people is seeing their rank improve. For mappers, I would say ranking a map is a reward because you expose your content for tens of thousands to see/play. Meanwhile, what is the reward for being a BN? When you download a map, there is nowhere to see who nominated the set (unless mapper puts in the description). Until recently, BNs didn't even have a tag on their profile. As a BN, you are pushing other people's sets to ranked, with basically no reward, even mentally.

I'd love for someone more knowledgeable on this, as I'm not sure why the system is as it is. What was the point of keeping BN stuff hush-hush? Knowing someone's a BN, and being able to know how good of a BN they are sounds interesting to me, and I think a lot of mappers would think so as well.

Having the BAT spreadsheet was stressful, because it made it like work, where if you messed up, there were consequences (e.g. getting removed from BAT). If we made it a leaderboard style thing, if implemented properly I think it would make it so BNs strive to try and get into the top "ranks". It could have a positive-only score system, where you get a base amount of points for nominating any map, and more points for doing certain things, like nominating a newer mapper's map, or nominating an artist not mapped/ranked in the game yet. (Obviously I haven't made a system for this cuz it's just an idea)

The intention for this is to make being a BN fun, with the leaderboard being the incentivize to strive to improve vs other BNs, while a positive points system would incentvize themi do things that they normally wouldn't do (check newer mapper sets, bubble unconventional maps, maps above 7* that arent just PP jumps)

I'd love to know what people think about something like this, because I think it could work *if* implemented well.

I don't have much to say to this, encouraging is almost always better than restricting something, agree to this

What I take from this thread:

Mishima Yurara wrote:

bringing incentives for people to rank non bn maps instead wpuld be a better option than punishing bns for nominating bn maps

MaridiuS wrote:

This is the real reason why bn circlejerk or just friend nominating is a problem, they look past the quality of the map and simply nominate it.

Shiguma wrote:

People talking about giving an incentive to bubbling newer mapper's stuff, and I agree. We shouldn't punish BN's for B4B, but rather reward them for bubbling maps from mappers with little to no ranked maps.

So there are two problems.

1. It is difficult for new mappers to get mods from qualified people, and push their maps towards ranking.

The proposal you came up with is IMO the wrong way to go about it because:

1. Rewards for doing good stuff creates a positive feedback-loop which incentivices people to do more of the good stuff.
2. Punishments for doing bad stuff creates a negative feedback-loop which incentivices people to do less of the bad stuff.

And in general, I don't think it's appropriate to use a negative feedback-loop here, as modding a friend's map is still modding. And friends are what get a lot of people into the mapping-scene and keep them there (me included). Implementing this would discourage modding, which most of us should be able to agree on IS bad. Instead we should use a positive loop to reward modders for modding "unknown" maps. If implemented well, this would encourage more modding for newer mappers, but BN's could still do M4M's without getting discouraged.


2. Maps which are broadly considered "sub-par" are getting ranked.

These two are totally separate and should have two DIFFERENT solutions. Using one as an argument for the other is just ... wrong

Just a quick thought, a solution for this problem could come in form of a threshhold, let's say 20-30 % downvotes after the first 50 favorites, or something along those lines. But remember, this is totally separate problem.



TLDR: I think this is the wrong way to go about it. We should instead be figuring out a way to create a system which rewards modders for modding "unknown" maps

(I'm adding the quotation-marks because the "unknown" can be interpreted in a lot of ways, and should IMO be discussed.)

A way to encourage BNs to rank non-BN maps instead of circlejerking can be something to do with points and kudosu.


For instance;

1. Nominating a BN map only gives you 50-70% of the points you normally get and only 1 kudosu.
2. Nominating a non-BN map gives you 100% of the points you normally get and 2 kudosu.

This way if BNs circlejerk too much they won't get enough points to be considered active (by the BN system they have).


Something like this would seem more realistic.

-Tochi wrote:

A way to encourage BNs to rank non-BN maps instead of circlejerking can be something to do with points and kudosu.


For instance;

1. Nominating a BN map only gives you 50-70% of the points you normally get and only 1 kudosu.
   
2. Nominating a non-BN map gives you 100% of the points you normally get and 2 kudosu.

This way if BNs circlejerk too much they won't get enough points to be considered active (by the BN system they have).

Or instead, incentivize? This gives the same result but without shitting on BN's:

1. Up the values you need normally --> higher threshhold for active
2. Nominating a BN map gives normal points
3. Nominating a non-BN map gives you an added bonus of +25% points

Idk about the kudosu thing though

-Tochi wrote:

A way to encourage BNs to rank non-BN maps instead of circlejerking can be something to do with points and kudosu.


For instance;

1. Nominating a BN map only gives you 50-70% of the points you normally get and only 1 kudosu.
   
2. Nominating a non-BN map gives you 100% of the points you normally get and 2 kudosu.

This way if BNs circlejerk too much they won't get enough points to be considered active (by the BN system they have).


Something like this would seem more realistic.

what about a bn's who doesn't have a ranked map, he could be even penalized as a "unknown mapper" for just being a bn. there is any criteria like having a ranked map to join the bng.
for example, you can take AyanokoRin who is a bn that doesn't even have a ranked map, and can get penalized as a unknown mapper for being part of the bng

Leave this to the QAT, they are reliable enough to make appropriate steps to call a halt for circlejerks.

Stefan wrote:

Leave this to the QAT, they are reliable enough to make appropriate steps to call a halt for circlejerks.

yikes

--

On a more serious note:

UC makes good points except for this:

UndeadCapulet wrote:

"bn's are circlejerking shitty maps to rank"
bn maps can be vetted by community just the same as other mappers' maps, maybe start pushing back against them in qualified if you think their maps are so shitty

If you look at the target of the community's love lately, Sotarks maps have gotten walls and walls of distaste, some with good explanations, some with pure anger, etc etc. In the vast majority of these cases, the concerns are waved off very easily with an "it's fine" or "i prefer it this way". This isn't just Sotarks though, most mappers who are prolific enough have done this too. The community word is not weighted nearly as heavily as that of a BN or QAT. We hold power in our title and we're elevated users because of that. I was a BN in 2016, kicked from BN, and now I've rejoined, so I know both sides of this coin very well. From recent times, it is very clear to see community pushback is NOT working, and with the power that some nominators have within their own personal groups, the community will likely never have power over them.

BN should be allowed to rank/bubble only 1 BN's map each month

and BN must push if not bubble or rank 3 maps of a non BN mapper per month minimum or get a warning of getting kicked out of BNG if he did likewise for 2 months without a justification or why not out of the Whole Game (Ban) or Something like that

or just make any mapper a BN and here we are the problem fixed ...

I support the ideas behind the proposal but I don't think this can prevent such thing from happening, because potential bad bns can still circle jerk in a circle with more than 3 vertexes

This proposal is put forward for two purposes. The first one is plainly obvious, that this proposal be passed. And it is extremely unlikely so.
The second one is rather implicit, that it allows the community a chance to voice out whether circle jerk is a problem and why is that. Although not everyone is in unison in this matter, many have lamented the flaw of the system and place their trust onto the managers of the game. These opinions are not to be ignored or neglected. QATs and the managers of this game are expected to do something about it, and should do something about it.

Regarding the first purpose. I see there are quite a lot of people strongly against this proposal, whilst few are in favour of it. I guess this unpopular proposal will not pass. Nonetheless, I would still like to refute some invalid arguments (such as that one should not be discouraged to nominate a map; if circle jerk is banned, there will be no incentive to be BN etc) yet endorsed by the majority later today. Meanwhile, there are quite a lot of intelligent arguments against this proposal, notably the one about a larger circle jerk. I am thinking of a way to amend this proposal to prevent this problem.

Regarding the second purpose. This proposal aside, the general community (excluding some BNs who are of different opinions) has expressed their concern about the repercussions of circle jerk for the ranking ecosystem. If you a QAT, by now you should know that some actions are to be taken in tackling this problem.

To continue my post. (and my apology for sounding like a pompous ass as some people call me, I don't speak like this but when I write a proper post I just can't control)

Many BNs (and some members of the community) find this proposal rather irrational. Please allow me to explain. And whilst reading it, please forget that you are a BN(or QAT), but an indiscriminable member of the lot of this community. Because this proposal is not for the benefits of one particular class of people, but for the good of the general community.


Equality
Ordinary users cannot nominate maps. Some of them, who are relatively new or not famed, may struggle to find a BN to achieve their dream of ranking their first map. They may send ten inbox messages per day, for a week, until they have contacted all person capable of pushing their maps forward, and, no answer; or they may in-game PM some of the BNs, and be ignored. Some of them are lucky, or maybe their maps despite being their first ones are very good quality, they have the fortune to get a 'yes' from a BN, and that makes their day. You, indeed, have experienced this phase. Helpless, you have felt the struggle and sorrow.

BNs, in the contrary, have one button more available to them. And this button changes their fate. The nomination button. They can bubble for bubble. They can qualify for qualify. After becoming a BN, I believe few are still experiencing the struggle and sorrow I mentioned above.

I do not mean to put forward this proposal to 'punish' the BNs who nominate other BNs' maps. My intention is never any similar to this. I believe that BN's nomination power should be 'regulated'. 'Punish' is the wrong word; 'discourage' is even less accurate. Let us leave this game aside for a moment and get back to the real life. Although we all come from different countries, we share one thing: there are law which regulates people of power.
Civil servants such as policemen are binded by those law, so they are not benefitted by their privilage. They do not, simply because they have the power to arrest (and the power not to arrest), exculpate their colleagues when they have committed a crime. They are regulated by the law, and should they break them, there will be consequences. People working in the finance industry do not benefit from the information they receive from their job. They are, as well, regulated by the law, that they cannot use their confidential knowledge gained from working at the company to make a profit. They are all equal to other non-civil servants and non-bankers in the game of crime and finance. If a policeman breaks the law, he is seen to be as culpable, if not more; if a banker benefits from the confidential information he has to use it personally, the finance industry will collapse, because invertors will always be disadvantaged.

Osu! does not have such 'law' (rule in the context of a game). If we cover our eyes from this brute fact, it is not unlike we are saying "All animals are equal but some are more equal than others". The purpose of this proposal is that BNs are exercising public power and such power has to have an limit that it does not benefit them personally. As such, their private side (mapping) should not overlap with their public side (nominating). Their maps can still be nominated without being unrankable for a month, as long as they do not 'nominate for nominate'. That is, if a BN keeps his private side from his public side, he has done no wrong.


Incentive
Then some people may say 'then BNs will have no perks being BNs. They cannot bubble for bubble, it is like policemen receving no salary.' My answer to this is simple. 'Bubble for bubble' is not the only thing you get from being a BN, although it is the only public function a BN gets. A BN is more exposed to the community and therefore are more famous; is more respected because they have more power; their maps get more attention because they are known to people. I disagree with Kurai that the 'bubble for bubble' problem is ancient. This problem did not exist before because BATs and MATs in the past observed the convention that they should not 'bubble for bubble'. Some extent of circlejerk existed maybe because they were of the same nationality or they were good friends. But these were not matters as to their only public function -- to nominate maps for their maps being nominated. If in the past so many people were willing to become BATs and QATs, why do you think now all BNs are after the 'bubble for bubble' perk to become BNs? If so, are we not depreciating and devaluing the nature of BNs? Should BNs all about this kind of utility? Of course no. But the system apparently makes all of us think this is what BNs are all about.

Voluntary Work
Some also say BNs are voluntary workers. This does not entail that their use of power should not be regulated. Please allow me to continue to use those real life examples. Voluntary workers' power is still regulated. Even unpaid UN (United Nations) interns (they are not paid) will not be permitted to use their power to make a gain.
Moreover, the voluntary nature of BN means one very important thing. The whole job is voluntary. If one is not satisfied that his power is regulated, one will not become a BN at all. Only those who are enthusiastic enough will become BNs, or those who are satisfied that they gain fame at least from conducting their BN work, will become BNs. Is that not a better consequence? Is it not better than those BNs who work because they get utilitarian perks of making their maps ranked quicker?

I am Sorry
I am sorry. My apology to all BNs who are angered. My apology to all people who find this totally unreasonable. My apology for causing such drama. Many say I have the goodwill to put forward this proposal, but then say I am walking on the wrong route. I am sincerely sorry. I lament the inequalty between the powerful and the powerless. I came back as a mapper, and I reflected on how hard was it to rank my first map -- Luv Letter. I looked at what the situation is now, and couldn't believe it has not bettered, but worsened.

Now, come back to this game and QATs and BNs, you are no longer an ordinary individual out of the lot of this game. You are privileged. You are authoritative. And then think back how hard you ranked your first map. Do you think something needs to be changed? Do you think the inequality is sort of the source of discouragement to new mappers like you once were? Does power have to have an limit smoewhere? I understand that this proposal is soon to be repealed. But think again what we should do now. The problem does not only exist in that new mappers do not get enough attention, it also exists in that bubble for bubble is an improper use of power. If we do not solve this problem, less famed mappers will always receive significantly less attention no matter how much incentives you give to nominating non-BNs' maps because bubble for bubble is too perky than any reasonable incentive you can imagine to outweight this problem. On the other hand, mappers who are not BNs will be discouraged by inequaliy. This is a game. Make it fun.

Stefan wrote:

Leave this to the QAT, they are reliable enough to make appropriate steps to call a halt for circlejerks.

We could use some healthy discussion from the community anyway. Discussion helps bring attention to the problem, and it helps to form a general opinion.

archiving thread

as other users have explained, a rule like this isn't necessary. bns can and always have been able to do pretty much whatever they want with their permissions, so long as that doesn't involve promoting maps with problems. extreme cases of behavioral issues, including those related to "circlejerking", are dealt with on a case by case basis