ManuelOsuPlayer wrote:

[Taiga] wrote:

Doesn't matter how much time and effort i spend on trying to increase my raw tapping speed - it won't happen. My hand cannot handle that fast movement, nor my muscles. It is called physical disability which will hold me back from progressing at certain point.

Yes - talented people have easier time and faster progression.
Yes - any disability will make you unable to stand on same level as talented person.

What Rayne said.... tl;dr - wall of bullshit.

There is people in the world playing guitar using the foot after a hand accident and living from it. There is also people what broke a nail and leave the job.
It's easier to say genetics make him better than me. Instead say i could have worked more to get that far.

You never stop being amusing.

Keep it going bro, do you ever read wtf are you writing?

xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

[Taiga] wrote:

you never stop being amusing.

Keep it going bro, do you ever read wtf are you writing?

xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

If you are going to post in my thread can you keep it civil, please? I saw how you almost single handedly ruined the other thread linked. This is a good discussion in G&R for once and I don't need you to fuck it up by being a shitposting mongoloid.

That being said, in response to your previous post, why don't you tap+x? That type of playstyle has a far lower body load than any other style - it's the go-to for players with RSI like Azer.

[Taiga] wrote:

That sounds like an excuse. There are a lot of ways for you to reduce the rhythmic burden on your body in this game. I don't believe the limiting factor for almost anyone is the actual physical act of performing the game, barring some kind of serious physical handicap. Being able to comprehend the barrage of input demands this game throws at your brain and produce precise outputs in return is the part that separates the weak from the strong, and that's all mental. Playing this game might feel hard on your body, but that's only due to our inefficiency in creating outputs. Someone who is brand new can wear themselves out playing two star maps because they have no muscle memory or technical skill and therefore waste enormous amounts of kinetic energy.

No.

First off - my left hand is weak due several shit situations irl.

Second - I already had surgery due RSI and not made by osu! specifically but due how much time i spend on computer and how many years I work that way (including weird hand positions on keyboard). osu was just a trigger. It ended up on 7 months inactivity in osu and any rhythm game. I bet if i could do same shit for right hand, it would end same way. You don't imagine how much pain it is to not being able to move your hand properly, not being able to sleep due how much pain is produced by stupid carpal tunnel - that's why I have so much laugh at all this noobs claiming "hey, I have RSI". This stupid cunts doesn't even know how painfull it is.

Third - All tapping what i do, I use fingers, only fingers. Whenever i use wrist to "tap faster", it ends up being a nightmare for next hours. Why? Read "Second".

I am physically unable to bypass certain speed level, deal with it. Doesn't matter how much talented i could be - there is a limit where my progression stop.

Don't tell me about "excuses" because I am probably last one here who makes one.

Sounds like you got my point the wrong way.
Obviously actual physical (and mental) disabilities will make you progress slower or hinder any ability to play / obtain a certain level of speed.
I was speaking about this mystery of "natural talent" / "being born that way" so to say.

It should be common sense that you can't play well or can't play at all if you have no hands,(well maybe some people could actually do it) are severely or even slightly injured. That goes without saying.
You not being able to progress in osu!, as you said yourself, is due to you being injured and not because all other people around you are "gifted" (in the sense of talent, not related to health) or certain individuals being gifted, it's just the situation that's holding you back.

I don't really feel like believing in talent but I have to in some way
Stuff like osu!mania, where players from beatmania and other rhythm games with lanes can integrate into easily, have a much easier time and thus their talent in previous experiences bring them high up on the ranking charts. https://osu.ppy.sh/u/4477497 people like this guy are just gods and hes just that good

On the other hand, sometimes talent doesnt matter because your peripherals/setup may be shit.
I've had to use a thumb+pinky playstyle since I had a disability in ny left hand and couldnt stream with index+middle.
I slowly climbed the ranks but after I changed to this 120g mouse I couldn't even fc a 4.7* song, whoch is kinda tragic since I'm at the 21k range

I just wanted to add a little anecdote. A month or so ago I had a few friends come over. 2 of them had never heard of osu before, so I let them both play the tutorial (you, know the map the game comes with). One of my friends got like a B? I think on his first try. My other friend tried 6 times in a row and failed the song every single time. He has a reputation for being a bit of a klutz so i wasn't too surprised honestly (regardless we all laughed at him xD).

But I've been exposed to rhythm analyzing for years through choir and piano, and my other friend who did well also was in a band for some time. My friend who failed miserably has never touched an instrument in his life. Also I recently learned a old high school friend of mine who plays this game is around like rank 10k, and he's been in band since like 6th grade. I truly think osu comes easier to those who have a good sense of rhythm. Or it might just be those who studied music in some way are just more inclined to enjoy osu, and therefore do better (i do believe you do better at things you enjoy).

In any case, now that I have a great tablet and keypad, I can't blame my screw ups on a lack of "proper peripherals"...

I also kind of disagree with what the OP in the thread that was linked is saying, I think his metrics are just plain wrong... It's kind of crazy to me that he'd have the audacity to call someone under 5k "untalented".

Talent it's there. https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime
The average it's around 215ms. My average after 10 trys it's 470. I have S scores fc at AR10'4 3*. If i had lower reaction time, play high AR would be much easier and wouldn't need spam high AR for really long time until learning new ways to play it.
I can remember be at rank 55k with 15k plays and get rekt for everysingle player around 400k with really low time played at any AR10 map.
I can't improve my reaction time, but i can learn to predict beats, improve eyes speed, fingers speed, information processed...

For sure talents make difference but my fingers get much faster than if i had 150ms reaction time instead almost 500ms. What was a handicap and still being give me tons of advantage now playing high bpm stuff, compared to what i could do if i had a normal reaction time. Like if i had only 1 finger on my hand i probably will be singletapping streams right now, making 300 bpm singletap maps boring and easy.
So i think you can compensate your handicaps making others skills improve to the next level.
A good example of what I'm saying: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien ... 88959.html
There is nothing what can stop you if you're motivated and you have the right mindset.

"Do you believe in gravity?"

Talent doesn't matter.

Talent only matters when you compare yourself to others which you shouldn't be doing anyway.

Do what you want in life regardless on whether you are good at it or not.

You don't need talent to "enjoy game" or to experience the journey of challenging yourself to become the best you can be.

Obviously talent exists, but you can still get gud by trying hard. It can take way longer for untalented person to get same results as talented tho.

ManuelOsuPlayer wrote:

Talent it's there. https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime
The average it's around 215ms. My average after 10 trys it's 470. I have S scores fc at AR10'4 3*. If i had lower reaction time, play high AR would be much easier and wouldn't need spam high AR for really long time until learning new ways to play it.
I can remember be at rank 55k with 15k plays and get rekt for everysingle player around 400k with really low time played at any AR10 map.
I can't improve my reaction time, but i can learn to predict beats, improve eyes speed, fingers speed, information processed...

For sure talents make difference but my fingers get much faster than if i had 150ms reaction time instead almost 500ms. What was a handicap and still being give me tons of advantage now playing high bpm stuff, compared to what i could do if i had a normal reaction time. Like if i had only 1 finger on my hand i probably will be singletapping streams right now, making 300 bpm singletap maps boring and easy.
So i think you can compensate your handicaps making others skills improve to the next level.
A good example of what I'm saying: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien ... 88959.html
There is nothing what can stop you if you're motivated and you have the right mindset.

You do not stop to amaze me.

I saw how you almost single handedly ruined the other thread linked.

Railey2 and me have different opinion about this.
Other thread was fired up discussion.

Talent obviously exists for osu!, I think if anyone tries hard enough with the right mindset and intelligence, they could be very proficient at, say, an HD+HR modset, but for high tier DT, you need some sort of talent or capability for speed. Not everyone is capable of accurately streaming 270bpm deathstreams like Gayz, our bodies are built differently. Also, time is a factor, because even with the combination of hard work and time, by the time you reach the meta level today, it's gonna be completely below what it would be 2 years from now, and talent can greatly accelerate the process.

The problem with Railey2's thread though is that there's no accurate way of measuring your capability. When I think of talent, I don't think of someone that's a "natural", because other games you've played before osu! can heavily influence that, which is what Railey2's thread is focusing on. Only you can determine whether or not you can become a pro, not someone else.

NixXSkate wrote:

but for high tier DT, you need some sort of talent or capability for speed. Not everyone is capable of accurately streaming 270bpm deathstreams like Gayz, our bodies are built differently.

Everyone's capable of inaccurately doing it tbh

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

NixXSkate wrote:

but for high tier DT, you need some sort of talent or capability for speed. Not everyone is capable of accurately streaming 270bpm deathstreams like Gayz, our bodies are built differently.

Everyone's capable of inaccurately doing it tbh

VALLISTA DT huh? Yeah I can see someone like you saying that.
I'm constantly improving, but to improve my speed, it takes so much training, that energy could be focused elsewhere, like aiming or hitting more accurately. The fact that I have no talent for speed is probably why I went from top 500 to decayed oblivion, not because I'm bad at speed, but because it requires so much attention over other things to improve it.

Rayne wrote:

TL;DR
Talent doesn't exist.

Implying that I can become the next Mozart?
Implying that I can run as fast as Usain Bolt?
Implying that everyone could've become a top100 player, but we decided not to :-)

NixXSkate wrote:

VALLISTA DT huh? Yeah I can see someone like you saying that.
I'm constantly improving, but to improve my speed, it takes so much training, that energy could be focused elsewhere, like aiming or hitting more accurately. The fact that I have no talent for speed is probably why I went from top 500 to decayed oblivion, not because I'm bad at speed, but because it requires so much attention over other things to improve it.

Vallista DT isn't anywhere as impressive imo compared to my 0 misses on things like tower of heaven, ojamajo de ban ban, or my fc of black apple. Those are underrated. Imo anyone can decide to spent hours a day everyday in order to get faster and more stamina like going to the gym; it's not hard, just demanding and in need of consistency. There's no talent to that aspect per se.

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

NixXSkate wrote:

VALLISTA DT huh? Yeah I can see someone like you saying that.
I'm constantly improving, but to improve my speed, it takes so much training, that energy could be focused elsewhere, like aiming or hitting more accurately. The fact that I have no talent for speed is probably why I went from top 500 to decayed oblivion, not because I'm bad at speed, but because it requires so much attention over other things to improve it.

Vallista DT isn't anywhere as impressive imo compared to my 0 misses on things like tower of heaven, ojamajo de ban ban, or my fc of black apple. Those are underrated. Imo anyone can decide to spent hours a day everyday in order to get faster and more stamina like going to the gym; it's not hard, just demanding and in need of consistency. There's no talent to that aspect per se.

What if I practice as much as you and I can't even pass those maps? Isn't it talent that helped you improving faster?

Then you clearly didn't actually do that or didn't play the right things.

Nattsun wrote:

Rayne wrote:

TL;DR
Talent doesn't exist.

Implying that I can become the next Mozart?
Implying that I can run as fast as Usain Bolt?
Implying that everyone could've become a top100 player, but we decided not to :-)

Is entirely your fault you're not Mozart/Einstein/Cookiezi, you just didn't try hard enough/practice the right way :^)

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

Then you clearly didn't actually do that or didn't play the right things.

You don't seem to understand that our fingers move differently; the reason you're talking like this is because you had no problem improving your streaming. Talent doesn't mean you just hop in the game deathstreaming 300bpm. You're pretty funny if you think that just because you personally were able to improve so fast that other people can. No sentience. You can argue all you want that I'm not practicing right, our fingers and forearms aren't built the same. It's more than just talent, it's physical differences.

Yes everyone can death stream 300bpm given enough time and effort, is everyone the same in terms of efficiently using that said time? No

NixXSkate wrote:

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

Then you clearly didn't actually do that or didn't play the right things.

You don't seem to understand that our fingers move differently; the reason you're talking like this is because you had no problem improving your streaming. Talent doesn't mean you just hop in the game deathstreaming 300bpm. You're pretty funny if you think that just because you personally were able to improve so fast that other people can. No sentience. You can argue all you want that I'm not practicing right, our fingers and forearms aren't built the same. It's more than just talent, it's physical differences.

But you're seeming to imply that it's going to be impossible for you to do that no matter how long you take, which I think is frankly wrong.

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

But you're seeming to imply that it's going to be impossible for you to do that no matter how long you take, which I think is frankly wrong.

NixXSkate wrote:

I'm constantly improving, but to improve my speed, it takes so much training, that energy could be focused elsewhere, like aiming or hitting more accurately. The fact that I have no talent for speed is probably why I went from top 500 to decayed oblivion, not because I'm bad at speed, but because it requires so much attention over other things to improve it.

I'm not implying that it's impossible for me to ever to FC 270bpm deathstreams, I'm saying that practicing to do so for me would take such a massive amount of time and focus over every other aspect of the game that it's not practical. (Although accurately streaming 270bpm deathstreams like Gayz? Extremely doubtful that it could happen in my lifetime.)

Then aren't you agreeing with me when I say it's possible to do with that dedication?

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

Then aren't you agreeing with me when I say it's possible to do with that dedication?

Sure, but having to practice something exclusively 3+ years in comparison to someone that has talent for it is obviously a severe handicap on to how well you can play with time. Time is a huge factor until the human limit is reached in this game. When you say anyone can do it, it means they might have to practice for years and weaken other potential skills or specialties in order to do so.

If I took all the years of practice and somehow manage to get to your level now, how much could you have surpassed me if you cared to practice it as well? Or in other aspects of the game? It's unfair to assume you can just out-practice everyone when there's plenty of others that care too. Some with talent.

I think you're under the assumption that it only matters in relation to other people or in competition with other people, which I'm not thinking about overall. They're irrelevant and in no way does their ability actually affect the way you play at all. If you ignore the fact that other people who don't necessarily matter exist, then you have enough time because you're only in competition with yourself.

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

But you're seeming to imply that it's going to be impossible for you to do that no matter how long you take, which I think is frankly wrong.

Our bodies have different physical limits. There is a reason why only the ones who are blessed with good genetics can become body builders. Their physical limits are higher than everyone elses. This only counts if we assume noone takes roids.

Same goes for osu! we have different physical limits, be it streamspeed or stamina. On top of that, reaction time can't be improved, you either have a fast reaction time or you don't. This is why I claim talent matters and exists. Of course, I could pump a truckload of time and do the same shit as you, but if you have to invest less time and get better results it means you are more talented.

@b1rd I played the guitar for years, why am I not as good as Jimmy Hendrix :^)

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

I think you're under the assumption that it only matters in relation to other people or in competition with other people, which I'm not thinking about overall. They're irrelevant and in no way does their ability actually affect the way you play at all. If you ignore the fact that other people who don't necessarily matter exist, then you have enough time because you're only in competition with yourself.

If you're only going to care about the ability of yourself, then there's no point in being in a thread about talent, because talent is relative to others.

And I think a thread about talent is unnecessary because I don't think anyone should focus on the concept of it. If it exists, there's nothing you can do about it but work harder. If it doesn't exist, then just work harder.

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

And I think a thread about talent is unnecessary because I don't think anyone should focus on the concept of it. If it exists, there's nothing you can do about it but work harder. If it doesn't exist, then just work harder.

Sure, I'm going to continue to improve myself and continue to derank into oblivion, but that's not what this thread is about. It's silly to think talent doesn't exist in this game.

I think it's silly to dwell on that fact and "accept your fate" or whatever. Anytime I see this it's just people wanting excuses for not being as good as whocares. It doesn't make any sense to debate whether or not talent exists because there's nothing anyone can do to affect talent itself.

NixXSkate wrote:

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

And I think a thread about talent is unnecessary because I don't think anyone should focus on the concept of it. If it exists, there's nothing you can do about it but work harder. If it doesn't exist, then just work harder.

Sure, I'm going to continue to improve myself and continue to derank into oblivion, but that's not what this thread is about. It's silly to think talent doesn't exist in this game.

It's silly to deny the fact that talent doesn't exist, but it's worse to give up because you know you don't have it. I get Yuudachi-kuns point, he is not even wrong, but talent matters, that's why you should only focus on yourself and don't compare yourself to others who are just doing better with less effort.

I think it's silly that someone with talent is talking about accepting fate to someone who's played this game for years.
Believe me, I want to prove myself wrong and be a top player, and I'll continue to practice this game as I always have until my life has too many other priorities.

NixXSkate wrote:

I think it's silly that someone with talent is talking about accepting fate to someone who's played this game for years.
Believe me, I want to prove myself wrong and be a top player, and I'll continue to practice this game as I always have until my life has too many other priorities.

If I had talent, I would be as fast as XII or have more accuracy like mithew - instead I had to play 240-300 bpm for 3-4 hours straight everyday for 5 months following a break from an 8th month period of play where all I did was play for fcs for 3 hours a day everyday without missing a single day.

That's why I believe talent is overestimated. I didn't even bother to get to fail a mendes DT fc at the ending stream until I decided to play the deceit/violation 8 times in a row the day prior. That was painful. In a sense, I'm just the result of your previous mention of "Abandoning everything else to only train one thing."

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

NixXSkate wrote:

I think it's silly that someone with talent is talking about accepting fate to someone who's played this game for years.
Believe me, I want to prove myself wrong and be a top player, and I'll continue to practice this game as I always have until my life has too many other priorities.

If I had talent, I would be as fast as XII or have more accuracy like mithew - instead I had to play 240-300 bpm for 3-4 hours straight everyday for 5 months following a break from an 8th month period of play where all I did was play for fcs for 3 hours a day everyday without missing a single day.

That's why I believe talent is overestimated. I didn't even bother to get to fail a mendes DT fc at the ending stream until I decided to play the deceit/violation 8 times in a row the day prior. That was painful. In a sense, I'm just the result of your previous mention of "Abandoning everything else to only train one thing."

Yes, talent is relative. Even with all that practice, you improved way faster than I would, and you probably had a better starting position. You're probably top 20 in the world for speed/stamina, that's a pretty big deal for 5 months of practice, and it shows the power of putting in hard work with some existing talent. (I don't know how often XII or mithew practice, but again, talent doesn't have to be natural talent.) I'm not doubting at all you put in a great deal of hard work, just don't expect all intelligent players to have the same results with the same amount of practice, because there's a >90% chance the results wouldn't be as good as yours.
I practiced spinning back in the day like mad and I never became that notable at it.

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

And I think a thread about talent is unnecessary because I don't think anyone should focus on the concept of it. If it exists, there's nothing you can do about it but work harder. If it doesn't exist, then just work harder.

Pretty much this.
Noone knows if talent exists or not. There are hundreds of studies about genes vs environmental influences / practice and we will probably never be able to tell exactly if talent exists or not.

Even so, why would you talent to exist that badly? The concept of it promotes lazy attitudes and excuses as I mentioned before.
I guess people find solace in the thought that they did the best they could, which most of the time isn't true, and then will just blame it on talent and be done with it.


Whoever brought up Mozart or other musical artists. Mozart already took lessons in several aspects of music when he was like 5 years old from a professional musician ( his dad ) and probably watched him play for way longer. There's a very strong possibility that this might be the reason for his success and not just some born natural talent.



There's no reason to think about concepts like talent unless you're looking for excuses or solace, a solution why you aren't where you want to be.
And yes, there is something like "efficiently" spending your time learning something, yet you can do something for years in your life and never get really better at it.

Drawing is a prime example. Many people are drawing for several years but are still floating at a level of someone who invested around a year really learning drawing simply because they never bothered to push their knowledge and learn about all the other things that make you better at it.

When you just casually play games, or osu, and you just play casually, have no ->real<- intentions of getting better then you will probably only improve on a small scale. Which is fine. Noone says you have to be good at something to be happy with where you're at, but saying you aren't top100 / pro artist because you lack talent imo is just a wrong thing to do.


I don't doubt people would really like to be good at something, but I do believe that most people really don't like to invest the time.



You'd be better off just forgetting about things like talent because whether it exists or not you can't influence it anyway, yet people are so passionate about its existence. I wonder why that is?

Rayne wrote:

You'd be better off just forgetting about things like talent because whether it exists or not you can't influence it anyway, yet people are so passionate about its existence. I wonder why that is?

Because of people like you who think players are bad simply because they're lazier than the other person. Because of people like me who practiced streaming for years to go from abysmal level to mediocre, for you to then walk in and suggest that talent doesn't exist is kinda infuriating. You discredit the work of the untalented that don't give up by doing that. You act like I want talent to exist, why the fuck would I want that? I just acknowledge it exists and continue to play anyway.

NixXSkate wrote:

Rayne wrote:

You'd be better off just forgetting about things like talent because whether it exists or not you can't influence it anyway, yet people are so passionate about its existence. I wonder why that is?

Because of people like you who think players are bad simply because they're lazier than the other person. Because of people like me who practiced streaming for years to go from abysmal level to mediocre, for you to then walk in and suggest that talent doesn't exist is kinda infuriating. You discredit the work of the untalented that don't give up by doing that. You act like I want talent to exist, why the fuck would I want that? I just acknowledge it exists and continue to play anyway.

^ This, it's just a fact that everyone is different. Improving at a slower rate doesn't mean that person is lazy and/or is practising in a wrong way. Do you really think that everyone who gets music education since 5 years old can become the new mozart or everyone who practices sprinting their entire life can compete with Usain Bolt? Of course you shouldn't let the concept of talent stop you from practising and improving but it's bs to claim it doesn't exist when there are people practising for years or even their entire life that will never reach the very top.

ManuelOsuPlayer wrote:

Talent it's there. https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime
The average it's around 215ms. My average after 10 trys it's 470. I have S scores fc at AR10'4 3*.

Got 200 ms avg 1st try, 180ms avg 2nd try. So does this mean i'm guaranteed top 100 within the next year?????







But seriously did you look at the chart that's on the link you posted? The average is 281ms, not 215. Anyways color contrast tests in general are not a good measurement of reaction times for quite a few reasons. In any case it's a pretty poor excuse in regards to osu.

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

there's nothing anyone can do to affect talent itself.

What if there was? Then, all you would need to do is quantify what the source is to be able to improve "talent".

But, then again, the whole reason this is so debatable is because talent is supposedly unquantifiable in the first place...

SirOxorsid wrote:

ManuelOsuPlayer wrote:

Talent it's there. https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime
The average it's around 215ms. My average after 10 trys it's 470. I have S scores fc at AR10'4 3*.

Got 200 ms avg 1st try, 180ms avg 2nd try. So does this mean i'm guaranteed top 100 within the next year?????







But seriously did you look at the chart that's on the link you posted? The average is 281ms, not 215. Anyways color contrast tests in general are not a good measurement of reaction times for quite a few reasons. In any case it's a pretty poor excuse in regards to osu.

Wtf is with your reaction times lmao... Mine is 250-300.