...zzz
I think something needs to be said on this point, because this issue is really being danced around.Skylish wrote:
Speaking of the extent of fitting of patterns with music, it is not really appetizing and suitable imo. However, I am done with my concerns as yumuya is not going to change anything once he can explain his intention, although I disagree with.
Leave the things to QATs now, and I wish you good luck.
Osu's terms are based on 1:4 ratio for the purpose of simplification. This is shown by the fact that 4/4 time a tempi is listed as 1/4 in osu, since ♩♩♩♩ makes a whole beat in 4/4 (four crochet to a bar), but due to the fact that 4/4 is almost invariably used in osu for the sake of simplicity as it is the most common time signature, a beat is ♩, and thus the snap is to countable beats instead of to time signature (the opposite of the norm).Unmei Muma wrote:
you tryna tell me there's 64th triples
then yeah
BUT 96TH or 64th triplets for the music nerds
I CANNOT BELIEVE IT
Even though by waveform analysis and close listening using AV i came to the same conclusion for 64th triples, 32nd doubles should be the way to go.
your maniera is slower tho it says 120 bpm :thinikng:
Thanks for mod.iloveyou4ever wrote:
[maziari's Hell Oni]
>01:45:043 - add finisher?
>since you are mapping to the ''snare'' sound(idk if it's XDD),and you also put finisher at 01:45:476 - ,so I think you should also change 01:45:043 - to finisher too to keep the consistency.
I want to give player an irregular impression so nochanged.
>01:58:745 - add d here?
two reasons
1.to connect both the music part,since you're mapping to piano here,and there's piano here too,so I think adding d here can have a better
''connection'' of two music parts here.
2.Difficulties consistency,since like virtuoso and Inner Oni,there are notes here,and three difficulties are also mapping to the piano sound in this
music part,so I think difficulty consistency should also be put into consideration.
>hm. I think that consistency is unnecessary in difficulty above Inner Oni. Rather than that, individual sense of play should be given priority imo.
>In here, notes is placed along the drum, also in order to concentrate the player's consciousness on the outroduction, I placed a 1/1 break.
>I think sence of play is more important than accurate sound pickuping.
私は同じ考え方だ。 音楽に従うことが重要です、プレイアビリティを確保することはさらに重要です!パーカッションとピアノの両方が存在するため、妥協が必要です。 しかし、1/8のノートを返す、プレイアビリティは完全に戻ってきます。うまくいけば、同様にこのことを認識BNs。maziari1105 wrote:
Thanks for mod.iloveyou4ever wrote:
[maziari's Hell Oni]
>01:45:043 - add finisher?
>since you are mapping to the ''snare'' sound(idk if it's XDD),and you also put finisher at 01:45:476 - ,so I think you should also change 01:45:043 - to finisher too to keep the consistency.
I want to give player an irregular impression so nochanged.
>01:58:745 - add d here?
two reasons
1.to connect both the music part,since you're mapping to piano here,and there's piano here too,so I think adding d here can have a better
''connection'' of two music parts here.
2.Difficulties consistency,since like virtuoso and Inner Oni,there are notes here,and three difficulties are also mapping to the piano sound in this
music part,so I think difficulty consistency should also be put into consideration.
>hm. I think that consistency is unnecessary in difficulty above Inner Oni. Rather than that, individual sense of play should be given priority imo.
>In here, notes is placed along the drum, also in order to concentrate the player's consciousness on the outroduction, I placed a 1/1 break.
>I think sence of play is more important than accurate sound pickuping.
MOD返信ついでに、Virtuosoに対する私の所感を書いておきます。
1/8の2連打に焦点が当てられて議論をされているようなので、私もその点について書きます。
Following the reply, I'll write my feelings for "Virtuoso".
I can't write long complex sentences with my English so I'll write in Japanese. Sorry.
Please translate with excellent Google translate.
まず、Virtuosoの全体の構成について。
言うまでも無く、この譜面はピアノに重きを置いて音取りがされており、ドラムの打楽器的なリズムを取り入れることでより演奏感を得た譜面になっています。
また、サビでは同じメロディを刻みながらも違ったリズムを刻める、この曲だからこそ出来る楽しさを持つ譜面になっています。
件の1/8について、原作のBMSでは所謂ズレ配置といったものになっており、譜面の最大の個性となっていると思います。
たしかに太鼓は打楽器で、私も打楽器のリズムを取った場合の方が気持ちが良いことが多いと思いますが、Virtuosoにおいてはそうではないと思います。
ピアノのズレた音に合わせたズレ配置というのはこの曲でしか出来ないことであり、それを大音符の1/2や1/4の複合などの没個性的な配置で埋めるというのは、楽しさを捨てることに他なりません。
正確な音取りを求めて、1/16, 1/12, 1/6や、単音を入り混ぜたパターン、黄色戦の上から始まるパターン等が挙げられていますが、どれもプレイ感を感じられないパターンだと思います。
まず視覚的な面において、1/16, 1/12は視認しづらいことこの上ありません。1/6については音に合ってすらいません。
単音や黄色線の上から始まるパターン、これは実際にプレイした上で言っているのでしょうか。私にはプレイし辛くてたまりません。
たしかに音取りは大切ですが、私は、それは譜面を楽しませる上での一つの手段に過ぎないと思っています。
音を拾えば演奏感が得られ、プレイ感が高まり楽しい譜面になる可能性が高いでしょうが、音を拾ったからといって楽しい譜面になるとは限りません。
プレイ感が全ての上にあり、その中に音取りがあるに過ぎません。
明らかに音から外れている配置は、プレイ感を損ね楽しく無い譜面になる可能性が高まりますが、プレイ中にプレイヤーが意識できない程細かい音取りはマッパーの自己満足に過ぎません。
そういった考えの上で、Virtuosoの1/8は「視覚面」「演奏感」「MANIERAという曲の特徴であるところのズレ配置」を感じられる最良の配置だと思います。
これよりノーツ数が少なくても多くても、間隔が狭くても広くても、視覚的、又はプレイ時の演奏感が失われると思います。
長い文章、失礼しました。
[ Eon Fox ] wrote:
The words of Eon FoxI think something needs to be said on this point, because this issue is really being danced around.Skylish wrote:
Speaking of the extent of fitting of patterns with music, it is not really appetizing and suitable imo. However, I am done with my concerns as yumuya is not going to change anything once he can explain his intention, although I disagree with.
Leave the things to QATs now, and I wish you good luck.
No matter who is looking at Virtuoso, the objections almost always are concerning the 1/8 doublets. There's one problem, however. Whenever I see BNs and QATs trying to justify their raised concerns, it seems like a lot of the time that the only real argument that is being pushed is simply that 1/8 doublets aren't common in Taiko.
That doesn't feel like an actually rational and/or valid reasoning, because not terribly long ago, 1/4 and 1/6 being in the same stream was viewed as verboten. True, Taiko is a mode that doesn't need excessive evolution, but this isn't something new or even that extreme, since both RoR's and FoTS' Tatsujins use it (the latter VERY questionably).
Now, I have taken the liberty of looking at a direct MIDI version of Maniera, and to be frankly honest, it's actually 1/8 triplets being played on the piano, and they are most certainly not grace notes, as they are actually supposed to be... *drumroll*... a 1/8 triplet followed by 1/8 duplets (as _yu had correctly done at the measures 27 and 28) and, shortly afterward, a long stream of 1/8 triplets that is followed by 1/8 duplets. Seeing as how 1/8 duplets rustled some jimmies already, I can't imagine you'd want to have 1/8 triplets.
Now, you might be wondering just how I know this is 1/8 and not 1/6. Simply put, it wouldn't snap correctly to the notes at 1/6. The patterns for both I can give full detail of B:S:T and note plus octaves upon request. It appears that yu actually went for the simplified route and left out the highest note for each. So if anyone still wants to stand by the notion that _yu's decision to map the 1/8 triples is in question regarding its validity, I will be more than happy to thoroughly ream your argument apart by providing extensive evidence that is in _yu's favour.
EDIT: Pics of MIDI, at the request of Chromoxx.Pattern I: Pattern II:
Taiko is a rhythm game, not a sequencer imo.Skylish wrote:
Taiko is more like a base matching with the music, rather than just a game mode fitting players' common senses and expectations.
deleted it by raiden's veto_yu68 wrote:
update: added 1/8 doublets at 00:36:423 - and 00:36:568 - based on some people's post.
Thanks mod :3Nardoxyribonucleic wrote:
Here is the follow-through mod for the whole set after the heated discussion.
- [Futsuu]
- 01:12:300 - consider adding k here to make this part more interesting to play ? This would also result in a better spread with Muzukashii. added
- [Muzukashii]
- 00:49:512 - maybe add d here to cohere with the pattern length at 00:44:609 (2,1,2,3,1,2,1) - ? added
- [Oni]
- 00:24:849 (1,1) - swapping these notes to k d would help reflect the pitch decrease of piano there. changed only 00:24:849 (1) - to k in order to emphasize 00:25:137 -
- 00:33:070 (1) - changing this note to d would fit the sudden pitch drop well. i would keep in order to make ease of playing next 1/4
- 01:14:175 (2,3,4,5,1,1,2,3) - similar to 00:24:849 - , maybe try k d k k d d k k here ? changed
- [Virtuoso]
After some further considerations, I think you may keep the 1/8 doublets to decorate the scattered background piano although there exists possible alternatives like consecutive 1/2 big notes or longer 1/4 streams.You may call me back after that~
- 00:33:070 (300,301) - similar to Oni, you may change both notes to d with respect to the pitch of piano. same as oni, i'd keep it for ease of playing
- 00:56:868 - this note could be k to serve as an increase in kat density starting from 00:54:272 - . It would be less repetitive compared to 00:55:570 (512,513,514,515,516,517) - as well. changed
- 01:00:089 (544) - maybe delete this note as mentioned in Ono's post ? This would emphasize the cymbals occurring at 00:59:897 (543,545) - nicely. considering the flow, i think it's better to follow the piano rather than the cymbal (since 00:58:383 (531,532) - 00:59:248 (538,539) - etc are following piano)
Nardoxyribonucleic wrote:
- [maziari's Hell Oni]
- 00:15:258 - pattern inconsistency with 00:39:488 -
>changed 00:39:488: to same rhythm as 00:15:258: .- 00:25:570 (193,194,195,196) - I think this 1/6 pattern is really questionable as the background piano is clearly 1/4. Please consider replacing this with 1/4 kdk so that the piano could be followed in a more appropriate way.
>Surely each sound is 1/4, but if listen as a continuous sound, this sounds like a glissando. So to express it, 1/6 is necessary imo.- 01:10:713 (536,537,538,539,540,541,542,543,544) - similar to ^ , replacing these 1/6 notes with 1/4 kkd would be fine here.
>01:11:867: ~ is climax part, so I raised before there density the most intelligent means of excitement, also to distinguish the rhythm with 01:11:434 (549,550,551,552,553,554,555,556,557,558,559):, I think this 1/6 is necessary.- From 01:42:735 to 01:49:658 - would you mind justifying the use of 1/2 + 1/4 patterns in this session ? I think they should be mapped with 1/3 ones to respect the background music.
>In this difficulty, I picked up sound percussion rhythm mainly. This is consistent. So suddenly picking up the sound of a only piano by ignoring the percussion rhythm is unnatural imo. Also since the flow to here has been raised by the percussion rhythm, so connecting percussion rhythm is natural.
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Thanks for the mod ^^Nardoxyribonucleic wrote:
Here is the follow-through mod for the whole set after the heated discussion.
- [Vulkin's Kantan]
You may call me back after that~
- 00:42:734 and 00:43:022 - consider adding k here for a more balanced spread ? Currently its gap with Futsuu is rather big due to the dense 1/1 arrangements in Futsuu. Added
- 00:45:041 (62) - you may move this note to 00:44:464 - and change to d if you apply ^ for pattern variety. Then you can add finish at 00:45:331 (63) - for better emphasis.Changed, although i changed some previous notes, because although i like variety, note position consistency is something that i would like for it to remain.
- 00:47:349 and 00:47:637 - same as 00:42:734 - ^
- 00:49:657 (72) - similar to 00:45:041 (62) - , you may move this note to 00:49:080 - and add finish at 00:49:946 (73) - Done
- 01:06:386 and 01:06:675 - similar to 00:42:734 - , adding d here would help reduce the gap. Added in other places but on the same section
- 01:14:751 and 01:15:040 - same as ^Added
- 01:18:213 and 01:18:501 - similar to ^ , adding k at these spots would work well. Added, i hope they wont be nuisance for lack of break though o-o
- 01:23:694 and 01:23:982 - same as 01:06:386 - I added something at 01:26:001 - & 01:26:290 - so it maintains consistency (same piano pattern), and deleted 01:27:444 - 01:28:598 - to give a break accordingly
- 01:53:408 - same as 00:42:734 - added
osu file format v14
[General]
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Title:MANIERA
TitleUnicode:MANIERA
Artist:D(ABE3)
ArtistUnicode:D(ABE3)
Creator:_yu68
Version:Vulkin's Kantan
Source:BMS
Tags:abe yuta vulkin mrriichi maziari1105 maziari bof2011 dwmω encore piano
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I disagree.Skylish wrote:
Firstly, I would like to clarify that: I am not aiming at popping any 1/8 doublets since they are uncommon, it's not my target at all. My focus is always on the usage and and matches of notes with music.
Speaking back to the screenshots you provided before, thanks for providing the MIDI source of Maniera which is utterly supporting my points of view in Virtuoso actually. I am pretty confident that the current usage of 1/8 doublets are mis-matched as you can see the starting points of them (Measure 27/28). It is incomprehensible for me to understand.
Taiko is more like a base matching with the music, rather than just a game mode fitting players' common senses and expectations.
そして私はあなたに尋ねる、それらを返す。 私を含め何人かが、1/8ダブレットの存在のために実質的な証拠を与えました。 SkylishとRaidenはここで間違いがあります。 あなたはそれらの1/8ダブレットなしManieraをランク付けした場合には、マッパーとして、そして太鼓コミュニティにあなたに大きな害になります!_yu68 wrote:
deleted it by raiden's veto_yu68 wrote:
update: added 1/8 doublets at 00:36:423 - and 00:36:568 - based on some people's post.
I'm understanding it.[ Eon Fox ] wrote:
そして私はあなたに尋ねる、それらを返す。 私を含め何人かが、1/8ダブレットの存在のために実質的な証拠を与えました。 SkylishとRaidenはここで間違いがあります。 あなたはそれらの1/8ダブレットなしManieraをランク付けした場合には、マッパーとして、そして太鼓コミュニティにあなたに大きな害になります!
私はSuronoやTatsukeがそれを指名してくれると喜んでいると確信しています。 どちらもBNであり、どちらもVirtuosoのようであり、両方ともRaidenよりも説得しやすい。 私はTatsukeをお勧めします。彼は1/8ダブレットの決定をサポートしているだけでなく、マップも好きです。_yu68 wrote:
I'm understanding it.[ Eon Fox ] wrote:
そして私はあなたに尋ねる、それらを返す。 私を含め何人かが、1/8ダブレットの存在のために実質的な証拠を与えました。 SkylishとRaidenはここで間違いがあります。 あなたはそれらの1/8ダブレットなしManieraをランク付けした場合には、マッパーとして、そして太鼓コミュニティにあなたに大きな害になります!
However, in order to re-add 1/8 doublets, I need to find a nominator who agree it.
No change for now. Sorry.
I guess they don't have time to recheck it.[ Eon Fox ] wrote:
私はSuronoやTatsukeがそれを指名してくれると喜んでいると確信しています。 どちらもBNであり、どちらもVirtuosoのようであり、両方ともRaidenよりも説得しやすい。 私はTatsukeをお勧めします。彼は1/8ダブレットの決定をサポートしているだけでなく、マップも好きです。
no changeNardoxyribonucleic wrote:
- [Mrriichi's Inner Oni]
You may call me back after that~
- 00:02:061 - I think you need to lower the hitsound volume to about 45% so that the soft background beats would not be overemphasized.
- 00:02:782 - you may add a green line here with 90% volume for the drums.
no change because same reason as this
私はTasukeと話しただけで、彼は1/8ダブレットが返されたら彼がマップを指名する意思があると述べた。_yu68 wrote:
I guess they don't have time to recheck it.[ Eon Fox ] wrote:
私はSuronoやTatsukeがそれを指名してくれると喜んでいると確信しています。 どちらもBNであり、どちらもVirtuosoのようであり、両方ともRaidenよりも説得しやすい。 私はTatsukeをお勧めします。彼は1/8ダブレットの決定をサポートしているだけでなく、マップも好きです。
fixed.yuzu__rinrin wrote:
Kantan
00:49:368 (72,73) - Concurrent object, fix please. W
sorry for doing that ;_;yuzu__rinrin wrote:
Kantan
00:49:368 (72,73) - Concurrent object, fix please. W
Thank you!Arrival wrote:
Rechecked everything let's go ahead already
Please leave that to me. I will recheck it as soon as possible._yu68 wrote:
I'm waiting for the answer to my question from Nardo. (About whether notes can be added to 00:36:423 - and 00:36:568 - )