22:38 Kaito-kun: BA
22:38 Kaito-kun: NA
22:39 Minseo2000: XIANG
22:39 Minseo2000: JIAO
22:44 Minseo2000: you alive?
22:44 Kaito-kun: yes
22:44 Kaito-kun: downloading the map :^)
22:44 Minseo2000: lol
22:45 Minseo2000: oboi
22:45 Minseo2000: nuke soon
22:45 Minseo2000: gotta prepare my bomb shelters
22:46 Minseo2000: hue
22:47 Minseo2000: rip
22:47 Kaito-kun: I seriously can't find the logic behind those LN walls tbh
22:47 Minseo2000: it's to create the buildup before the bursts
22:48 Minseo2000: i am currently assuming that players who will be able to play this will be able to read the LN walls
22:49 Kaito-kun: Problem is not the difficulty behind it
22:49 Kaito-kun: it's that there's no reason for it to be there
22:49 Kaito-kun: there's not even a prolonged sound
22:50 Minseo2000: they represent the toms
22:50 Minseo2000: well
22:50 Minseo2000: which ofc doesn't last that long
22:51 Minseo2000: but in LN walls, the gaps work like SNs
22:51 Minseo2000: thus "inverse LNs"
22:51 Kaito-kun: I doubt that's rankable
22:52 Kaito-kun: closest there is atm ranked is Niv's 5K map, and it's pretty justified and defended
22:52 Minseo2000: well i'll ask about the LN walls to players/mappers more experienced with LNs
22:53 Minseo2000: but as far as I know, LNs don't necessarily need to represent a "prolonged sound"
22:53 Kaito-kun: they do need
22:54 Minseo2000: if so pretty much all heavy LN maps need to be changed
22:54 Minseo2000: which i don't think should happen
22:55 Kaito-kun: and before asking about the LN walls to experience players, if you are trying to rank this, you should first ask a trusted BN if such Inverted LNs are rankable
22:55 Kaito-kun: most LN maps have some type of defense there, atm, you have only said that "it's for buildup, and they represent X thing"
22:55 Minseo2000: i guess
22:56 Minseo2000: well
22:56 Kaito-kun: I remember Loctav saying he wouldn't let Inverted LNs get ranked too XD
22:56 Minseo2000: if i go longer with my words
22:56 Kaito-kun: but that was 2 years ago XD
22:57 Minseo2000: it's to allow a smoother difficulty progression between the normal twisty-LN+SN-thing-thing-section to the 1/8 burst
22:57 Minseo2000: and you see
22:58 Minseo2000: if I simply use SNs, it kind of breaks the noodly looks of the map (makes one side a small inverse LN and the other a simple SN stream)
22:58 Minseo2000: but mixing the two together on each hands made it way too hard for me
22:59 Minseo2000: at least
22:59 Minseo2000: so i felt that a short LN wall section like this might work
22:59 Kaito-kun: but it feels forced actually
23:00 Minseo2000: considering that the whole map is LN-based, i felt that an LN wall should not be too big of a problem (the LN walls should feel less "forced" than the 1/8 burst tbh)
23:00 Kaito-kun: there's a really big difference between 3 noodles at once and such LN wall there tho
23:01 Minseo2000: hmmm
23:01 Minseo2000: mayb3e
23:01 Minseo2000: *maybe
23:01 Kaito-kun: only problem I had with the map were 3 things:
23:02 Kaito-kun: 00:14:715 - I think this pattern here could be better
23:02 Minseo2000: i personally didn't find that big of a difference between the LN walls and the part prior
23:02 Minseo2000: hmmm
23:02 Minseo2000: that part
23:02 Kaito-kun: a bit more 2-handed would be good, but I would need more thinking before proposing anything
23:02 Minseo2000: it was the best one i could think of when i mapped it
23:03 Minseo2000: didn't want to make it too hard
23:03 Minseo2000: since the map only started and it's not yet the chorus
23:03 Minseo2000: i tried to make it as comfortable as possible as well, making it like this-ish 00:15:215 (15215|4,15298|3,15382|2,15465|1,15548|0) -
23:03 Minseo2000: 00:15:465 (15465|4,15548|3,15632|2,15715|3,15715|1,15798|0,15798|4) -
23:03 Kaito-kun: well, it may be me, but having one hand do a pattern and the other doing a different pattern isn't really what I call easy
23:04 Minseo2000: 00:15:882 (15882|2,15882|1,15965|3,15965|0,16048|4) -
23:04 Kaito-kun: hence why I propose something more 2-handed
23:04 Minseo2000: i tried to emphasize the reading requirements of LNs in this map
23:04 Minseo2000: thus pushing people to notice the connections between the notes
23:05 Minseo2000: and how they draw lines
23:05 Minseo2000: but idk that's just me
23:05 Kaito-kun: so you trying to make it harder than it should be?
23:05 Minseo2000: not necessarily
23:05 Minseo2000: finger-wise it should be easier
23:05 Minseo2000: since they are connected and all, it pretty much feels like a bit harder roll
23:06 Kaito-kun: but it doesn't really play like one
23:06 Kaito-kun: which beats the purpose of the placement
23:07 Minseo2000: hmmm
23:08 Minseo2000: not sure if i can find a better pattern for this part
23:08 Minseo2000: a suggestion might be nice
23:08 Minseo2000: well the previous was my defense for the current pattern
23:08 Kaito-kun: gimme a sec, let me see if I can think something on the spot
23:08 Minseo2000: if you find that there can be a better pattern then i will try it
23:09 Minseo2000: there's always room for improvement
23:09 Minseo2000: (quite alot tbh)
23:09 Kaito-kun: you want to keep the jumptrill-like pattern of the LNs, right?
23:09 Minseo2000: not really
23:10 Minseo2000: the current pattern is just like so to make that roll-like pattern that i highlighted
23:10 Kaito-kun: something in-between: 00:18:548 - missing note or you ignored it on purpose?
23:11 Minseo2000: it's a highhat there
23:11 Minseo2000: *hihat
23:11 Minseo2000: if you're talking about 00:18:715 - , it's the one extra LN
23:12 Kaito-kun: idk the story between Prot, you and the hihats
23:12 Kaito-kun: in case you were saying like I knew XD
23:12 Minseo2000: that's in yakusoku
23:12 Kaito-kun: o lol
23:12 Minseo2000: no in that
23:12 Minseo2000: basically
23:12 Minseo2000: we were arguing
23:12 Minseo2000: whether a sound was a hat or a kick
23:12 Minseo2000: lol
23:12 Kaito-kun:  lmao
23:12 Minseo2000: nothing complicated
23:13 Minseo2000: it's just a funny joke now
23:13 Minseo2000: i think
23:14 Kaito-kun: going back to the pattern, have you tried making the LNs the actual vocal length just for that section?
23:15 Minseo2000: did once
23:15 Minseo2000: turned out
23:15 Minseo2000: pretty uncomfortable
23:15 Minseo2000: but then throughout the whole map most of the LNs were extended for longer than the actual original sound is
23:16 Kaito-kun: but the whole map is technical in it's own way
23:16 Kaito-kun: can't agree with that LN usage, but I digress in that case
23:17 Minseo2000: the extended LNs kinda make a double note for each vocal
23:17 Kaito-kun: here, it's more speed-based than technical
23:17 Minseo2000: well
23:17 Minseo2000: a 1.5-chord?
23:17 Kaito-kun: http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/7130934
23:17 Minseo2000: idk how i'll call it
23:17 Kaito-kun: just a pretty random idea making the LNs shorter
23:18 Kaito-kun: only thing I actually consider pretty good is the 4 final LNs
23:18 Minseo2000: hmmm
23:18 Kaito-kun: haven't played it tho, so Idk if it's comfortable
23:19 Minseo2000: it doesn't look very comfortable to me
23:19 Minseo2000: lemme try tho
23:19 Kaito-kun: http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/7130953 This is the only section I can assure it's comfortable actually
23:20 Kaito-kun: since it transitions from a LN-note jumptrill to a burst which is most likely played the same way lol
23:20 Minseo2000: but i feel that it kinda breaks the concept of the map
23:20 Minseo2000: by suddenly reducing the lengths of the LNs
23:21 Minseo2000: ok
23:21 Minseo2000: just tried it
23:21 Minseo2000: in terms of comfort, it seems fine
23:21 Minseo2000: but it felt quite underwhelming
23:21 Minseo2000: compared to what was before
23:21 Kaito-kun: well, maybe use that pattern and go from there
23:22 Kaito-kun: since for me it's fine, but I'm sure you can add your retarded touch that makes your maps so trigger-ish for me :^)
23:22 Minseo2000: not sure if i can go from this pattern without making a crap ton of trills
23:22 Minseo2000: lemme try adapting the old pattern to this one
23:23 Kaito-kun: maybe you can take the extended LNs you had, and center them only on the 3 middle lanes
23:24 Minseo2000: http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/7130975
23:24 Minseo2000: smth like that maybe
23:24 Kaito-kun: since such patterns would be played almost equally no matter the playstyle (3+2, 2+3 or 2-space-2)
23:25 Kaito-kun: practically my idea, just make the LNs and the notes change columns XD
23:25 Minseo2000: pretty much
23:25 Kaito-kun: let me see if I can make something real quick
23:25 Minseo2000: like i said
23:25 Minseo2000: adapt the old one to yours
23:25 Minseo2000: :P
23:26 Kaito-kun: well, it actually looks nicer
23:26 Kaito-kun: dunno how it plays tho, let me see
23:26 Minseo2000: hmmm
23:26 Minseo2000: lemme swap some LN positions first
23:26 Minseo2000: to keep them all on the middle fingers
23:27 Minseo2000: http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/7130986 basically this
23:27 Kaito-kun: well, using the columns 1, 3 and 5 can also be a good idea
23:27 Kaito-kun: let's see that pattern
23:28 Minseo2000: makes the LNs make a nice little cover for the SN :P
23:30 Kaito-kun: well, it plays and looks better tbh
23:31 Kaito-kun: so, at least that's one thing somewhat solved from the map
23:31 Minseo2000: yup
23:31 Kaito-kun: 2nd is the LN wall, which I seriously doubt it's even rankable
23:31 Minseo2000: if LN walls are unrankable i'll give up ranking :D
23:32 Kaito-kun: going out of the discussion wheter it fits or not, I don't think such type of inverted LNs are currently rankable
23:32 Minseo2000: cuz my other map, AXION, has more (and harder) LN walls
23:32 Minseo2000: but i've been seeing quite a few inverted LNs around recently
23:32 Minseo2000: so i am currently assuming that it is
23:33 Minseo2000: and the RC itself does not explicitly say anything about LN walls
23:33 Kaito-kun: like?
23:33 Kaito-kun: only inverted LNs I can think of are Niv's 5K map (dunno the name)
23:33 Minseo2000: there's that dragonforce stuff
23:33 Kaito-kun: oh found it
23:33 *Kaito-kun is listening to [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/962352 Renard vs Kitsune^2 - The Castle]
23:33 Minseo2000: two of them
23:33 Kaito-kun: this map which has pretty justified LN walls
23:34 Kaito-kun: The Warrior Inside?
23:34 Minseo2000: and symphony of the night
23:34 Minseo2000: they both have inverted LNs
23:34 Kaito-kun: let me see
23:34 Minseo2000: i iirc kawawa's ultimate fate had inverted LNs
23:35 Minseo2000: jinjin's pi map has inverted LNs
23:35 Kaito-kun: I wouldn't take Kawawa as an example tbh XD
23:36 Minseo2000: well we're only looking for ranked LN walls
23:37 Kaito-kun: actually, I have actually forgotten about Jejjin's pi map
23:37 Minseo2000: and the LNs there last longer than the actual piano sound too
23:38 Minseo2000: so there goes the "LNs have to represent a prolonged sound" thing
23:38 Kaito-kun: I still thing that they should represent a prolonged sound
23:39 Kaito-kun: tho it does break my argument that LN walls are unrankable
23:39 Minseo2000: LNs are more accepted nowadays
23:40 Minseo2000: which i support
23:40 Kaito-kun: oh well, I'll just leave that part as it is, but seriously go ask a trusted BN (Prot doesn't count considering her low knowledge of high difficulty maps)
23:40 Kaito-kun: never being too careful
23:40 Minseo2000: yup
23:40 Minseo2000: i'll try asking ppl like archer first tho
23:40 Minseo2000: cuz rankability aside
23:40 Minseo2000: i don't want bad LNs
23:41 Kaito-kun: I support LN maps, but only if it's in the type of things like Chiptune music, where most sounds are prolonged-ish and have room for some forcing for better playability
23:42 Kaito-kun: (ofc, not stating only Chiptune should be LN-based, just using as example)
23:42 Minseo2000: LNs do go well with chiptune
23:42 Minseo2000: depends on the song
23:42 Minseo2000: and the mapper
23:42 Minseo2000: but not always
23:42 *Minseo2000 shrugs
23:43 Kaito-kun: well, it's not the Chiptune's fault the mapper is shit :^)
23:43 Minseo2000: xd
23:43 Minseo2000: brb mapping chiptune :^)
23:44 Kaito-kun: I plan on mapping some LN maps (Chiptune ofc, because it's <3)
23:45 Kaito-kun: well, to finish going with this
23:46 Kaito-kun: the last part of the bursts
23:46 Minseo2000: ye
23:46 Kaito-kun: and yes, I know you have thought a lot about it lol
23:46 Kaito-kun: but it's still triggerish :^D
23:46 Minseo2000: still mashy :^)
23:46 Kaito-kun: more like assured misses :^)
23:47 Minseo2000: give me better pattern pls :c
23:47 Kaito-kun: thinking of it atm
23:47 Kaito-kun: just jumptrill it :^)
23:47 Kaito-kun: I mean, what could go wrong? :^)
23:47 Minseo2000: should i nudge a LN or two and call it good :^)
23:48 Kaito-kun: make that burst LN-only then :^)
23:48 Minseo2000: right :^)
23:48 Kaito-kun: if you going with LN walls, go all the way through :^)
23:48 Minseo2000: inverting notes :^)
23:48 Minseo2000: hmmm
23:48 Minseo2000: actually
23:48 Minseo2000: should I?
23:48 Kaito-kun: inb4 inverting rank :^)
23:49 Kaito-kun: o god, you actually thinking about it?
23:49 Minseo2000: but then the SR will inflate alot if i make them inverted
23:49 Kaito-kun: how about you stop thinking for a second :^)
23:49 Minseo2000: sure :^)
23:49 *Minseo2000 proceeds to randomly place notes mindlessly
23:53 Kaito-kun: you trying to get the heart or the nuke icon? :^)
23:54 Minseo2000: the nuke :^)
23:54 Minseo2000: jkjk
23:57 Kaito-kun: aaaaaaaaa
23:57 Kaito-kun: can't think of anything atm
23:57 Minseo2000: lol
23:57 Minseo2000: same
23:57 Kaito-kun: tho I know the reason why it plays so uncomfortable
23:57 Minseo2000: other than making it inverted
23:57 *Minseo2000 runs
23:57 Kaito-kun: http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/7131109
23:58 Kaito-kun: those 4 notes are the reason pattern's shit :^)
23:58 Kaito-kun: 00:27:590 (27590|0,27673|0) - 
23:58 Kaito-kun: forgot these 2 :^)
00:00 Kaito-kun: only thing I can think of is going full retard and making those 5 jumps into a jumptrill to make it a justified "fuck you and your acc" pattern :^D
00:01 Minseo2000: http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/7131125 :^D
00:02 Kaito-kun: if I see that when I update this map, I'm getting a ticket straight to China :^D
00:03 Kaito-kun: actually, about that burst, maybe ask Parachor
00:03 Minseo2000: http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/7131134 then just this maybe
00:04 Minseo2000: but idk
00:04 Minseo2000: it feels harder
00:04 Kaito-kun: that was my idea actually :^D
00:04 Minseo2000: still FC'able
00:04 Kaito-kun: problem is not that the trill is 180BPM 1/8
00:04 Kaito-kun: I mean, it'
00:05 Kaito-kun: it's Blastix Riotz without the Riotz
00:05 Minseo2000: ok
00:05 Kaito-kun: problem comes from the burst-jumptrill-burst transition
00:05 Minseo2000: it's not really hard after trying a few times
00:05 Minseo2000: i'll keep it that way for now
00:05 Minseo2000: and see if better patterns can be made
00:06 Kaito-kun: well, that's about it about the map actually
00:06 Kaito-kun: I fucked up the rest of the map because I suck at LNs on 5k :^D
00:07 Minseo2000: rip kaito
00:07 Kaito-kun: so, the first section is already decent-ish imo
00:07 Kaito-kun: the LN wall, ask some experts to make it as less frustrating as possible to play, if you indeed keep it that way
00:08 Kaito-kun: also don't forget to ask knowledgeable BNs about it's rankability, just in case
00:08 Kaito-kun: and the burst, I really can't think of anything other than that jumptrill, so I guess it's a stalemate
00:09 Minseo2000: i guess
00:09 Minseo2000: i'll edit the LN walls for better comfort rn
00:09 Kaito-kun: rest of the map is, well, not really what I would call good mapping, but it is indeed entertaining to play
00:09 Minseo2000: o wao look at the SR drop
00:10 Kaito-kun: so, you giving me kds or what? :^)
00:10 *Kaito-kun goes full Prot
00:11 Minseo2000: ye
00:11 Minseo2000: post log pls