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Dg_ThePlayer wrote:
00:04:922 (4) -
I think these slider looks better like this instead of this Angle is far too steep, don't like the motion since it feels like a stop and reverse
00:21:169 (1,2,3) -
I think it's looks more "comfortable" being like this OR This I neither like the spacing nor the sharp angle nor the distancing in either of the two :c
hi
Kyshiro:
- 00:07:243 (7) - ctrl + g?
Akali:
- 00:27:137 (1,2) - I don't think both of these have the same strength in the song. Slider instead?
Rohit:
- 00:23:490 (3,4,5,6) - just personal, but considering the flow here, a couple of sliders probably fit better
Antares:
- 00:08:570 (1,3) - following your general combo-ing, you should swap NC here. You basically use 1 NC every 3 white beats: count from the start "1 2 3 1" and you'll see where you land. 00:09:564 (1) - this is not needed
- 00:12:548 (1,3) - same. 00:13:543 (1) - this is not needed btw
- 00:20:506 (1,5) - same. 00:21:501 (1) - not needed
- 00:25:811 (1,3) - same
- 00:29:790 (1,3) - same. 00:30:619 (1) - not needed
General:
- 00:09:572 - holy jesus, SB load goes up to x9.54 and keeps raising
- 00:24:816 - sb load up to x8.08
- 00:34:432 - SB load goes up to x6
Until you fix SB load I can't really help here.
Little peaks of x5.5 may be acceptable, but not whole sections having above x6. Please reduce the load.
Kyshiro:
- 00:07:243 (7) - ctrl + g?
Akali:
- 00:27:137 (1,2) - I don't think both of these have the same strength in the song. Slider instead?
Rohit:
- 00:23:490 (3,4,5,6) - just personal, but considering the flow here, a couple of sliders probably fit better
Antares:
- 00:08:570 (1,3) - following your general combo-ing, you should swap NC here. You basically use 1 NC every 3 white beats: count from the start "1 2 3 1" and you'll see where you land. 00:09:564 (1) - this is not needed
- 00:12:548 (1,3) - same. 00:13:543 (1) - this is not needed btw
- 00:20:506 (1,5) - same. 00:21:501 (1) - not needed
- 00:25:811 (1,3) - same
- 00:29:790 (1,3) - same. 00:30:619 (1) - not needed
General:
- 00:09:572 - holy jesus, SB load goes up to x9.54 and keeps raising
- 00:24:816 - sb load up to x8.08
- 00:34:432 - SB load goes up to x6
Until you fix SB load I can't really help here.
Little peaks of x5.5 may be acceptable, but not whole sections having above x6. Please reduce the load.
applied everything
https://puu.sh/sSGev/be96d34c2e.zip
https://puu.sh/sSGev/be96d34c2e.zip
ThanksMrSergio wrote:
Kyshiro:
- 00:07:243 (7) - ctrl + g? I'd rather keep it this way, if I ctrl+g this it'll ruin the flow of the stuff that comes after it
Topic Starter
ok rohit6 didn't want to change bcz he thought it plays better like this
akali changed to slider
sb fixed a little
akali changed to slider
sb fixed a little
Çaktım kudosu mapine xd
Normal:
- 00:38:079 (1,1) - maybe reduce the gap to 1/2, since it feels strange to start the spinner so late
Having a beginner in the set is frankly not needed at all. The easy is already easy enough, not to mention the song is short
Like.. seriously... 00:32:111 (1) - 10 secs of slider. Just why, it's boring as hell (nice sliderart btw)
Last time I actually get involved with a mapset with so many GDs.
Hehh...
PS: SB should be fine. I don't get any more spikes above x9 at all and it's more fluid than before.
- 00:38:079 (1,1) - maybe reduce the gap to 1/2, since it feels strange to start the spinner so late
Having a beginner in the set is frankly not needed at all. The easy is already easy enough, not to mention the song is short
Like.. seriously... 00:32:111 (1) - 10 secs of slider. Just why, it's boring as hell (nice sliderart btw)
Last time I actually get involved with a mapset with so many GDs.
Hehh...
PS: SB should be fine. I don't get any more spikes above x9 at all and it's more fluid than before.
Topic Starter
ay ya some of diffs were created in order to fill gaps, kfawys diff was actually one of first finished and it was supposed to be easy but it was too ez so had to change to beginner. i kinda personally don't think its wrong to have many gd's but each on their own i guess. you can argue its worse since diffs throughout the set might be not consistent and it would be valid point prolly.MrSergio wrote:
Having a beginner in the set is frankly not needed at all. The easy is already easy enough, not to mention the song is short
Like.. seriously... 00:32:111 (1) - 10 secs of slider. Just why, it's boring as hell (nice sliderart btw)
Last time I actually get involved with a mapset with so many GDs.
Hehh...
PS: SB should be fine. I don't get any more spikes above x9 at all and it's more fluid than before.
also im not sure if mkguh is still around so maybe i should just change for him? its not a big change anyway, idk if im allowed to tho. /me runsSonnyc wrote:
The best point I liked was the structures, and then the patterns selected to elaborate the structure. Also the selection of guest difficulty mappers was good. I've got a feeling that they weren't just randomly hired people to make a completed spread, but are selected people to fulfill the concept of your mapping.
it's a 1/2 spinner change, you surely can.
The fact about GDs is rather the concept of having a lot of them in the set, rather than the GD themselves. They are made quite well indeed, as Sonnyc said, that's also why I'm still willing to help further.
I should probably come up with a better policy and make exeptions where needed...
The fact about GDs is rather the concept of having a lot of them in the set, rather than the GD themselves. They are made quite well indeed, as Sonnyc said, that's also why I'm still willing to help further.
I should probably come up with a better policy and make exeptions where needed...
alright then
whoops, looks like MrSergio dropped an icon.
Bubble'ım patladığından beri bubble görmüyordum.TİŞİKKİRLİR DİRAİMUR
zigizigiefe wrote:
Bubble'ım patladığından beri bubble görmüyordum.TİŞİKKİRLİR DİRAİMUR
LOL!
Sorry for being harsh, but the Beginner difficulty is just bad.
It ignores the song completely with its rhythm. It's so undermapped that nobody who joins this game (target audience for this difficulty) will even understand how it's related to the music. 00:08:238 (1) - 00:12:217 (3) - 00:16:196 (1) - 00:20:174 (3,4) - Those sliders hint that it's supposed to follow the melody, the rest of the map ignores the melody completely though or simplifies it so hard that any relation to the music isn't noticable by anyone without mapping experience.
The intensity of the map itself is unrelated to the song's intensity. When the song gets more intense, the mapping should get more intense too, this applies for all level of difficulties. In this map, the intense buildup section of the song is followed with an extremely long slider, so all kind of rhythm emphasis is lost for this section. Due to the extremely low density of the map, it is not even possible to follow the song's intensity correctly anyway, but that's another topic.
The spacing of 0.4x is just way too low. This completely ignores the concept of time-distance-equality, because the players have to slow down to less than half of the movement speed when transitioning from a slider to the next object. Moreover, it makes the map look like a giant chain of objects. The stacks don't help with that, either. If you already use such an incredibly low density (which doesn't work, for above mentioned reasons), then atleast spread the objects further out to create movement emphasis, more interesting patterns and use more of the playfield.
There is a reason why osu! starts with 'Easy' or 'Normal' difficulty levels that are pretty difficult to get into for some people compared to other games. This is a rhythm game and even the easiest maps should meet the required quality standards (following the song well, changing intensity based on the song etc). This one doesn't and should be removed entirely from the mapset, no offense to Krfawy.
It ignores the song completely with its rhythm. It's so undermapped that nobody who joins this game (target audience for this difficulty) will even understand how it's related to the music. 00:08:238 (1) - 00:12:217 (3) - 00:16:196 (1) - 00:20:174 (3,4) - Those sliders hint that it's supposed to follow the melody, the rest of the map ignores the melody completely though or simplifies it so hard that any relation to the music isn't noticable by anyone without mapping experience.
The intensity of the map itself is unrelated to the song's intensity. When the song gets more intense, the mapping should get more intense too, this applies for all level of difficulties. In this map, the intense buildup section of the song is followed with an extremely long slider, so all kind of rhythm emphasis is lost for this section. Due to the extremely low density of the map, it is not even possible to follow the song's intensity correctly anyway, but that's another topic.
The spacing of 0.4x is just way too low. This completely ignores the concept of time-distance-equality, because the players have to slow down to less than half of the movement speed when transitioning from a slider to the next object. Moreover, it makes the map look like a giant chain of objects. The stacks don't help with that, either. If you already use such an incredibly low density (which doesn't work, for above mentioned reasons), then atleast spread the objects further out to create movement emphasis, more interesting patterns and use more of the playfield.
There is a reason why osu! starts with 'Easy' or 'Normal' difficulty levels that are pretty difficult to get into for some people compared to other games. This is a rhythm game and even the easiest maps should meet the required quality standards (following the song well, changing intensity based on the song etc). This one doesn't and should be removed entirely from the mapset, no offense to Krfawy.
Topic Starter
thanks for your input but i'll kindly have to disagree with "should be removed from the mapset", will still wait the word from krfawy though before my final decision though.Desperate-kun wrote:
Sorry for being harsh, but the Beginner difficulty is just bad.
It ignores the song completely with its rhythm. It's so undermapped that nobody who joins this game (target audience for this difficulty) will even understand how it's related to the music. 00:08:238 (1) - 00:12:217 (3) - 00:16:196 (1) - 00:20:174 (3,4) - Those sliders hint that it's supposed to follow the melody, the rest of the map ignores the melody completely though or simplifies it so hard that any relation to the music isn't noticable by anyone without mapping experience. i'll have to disagree, krfawy has mapped to the melody on background which are far less dense than main melody, i'm not sure about "isn't noticable anyone without mapping experience" i think its too early to say that without seeing players play first.
The intensity of the map itself is unrelated to the song's intensity. When the song gets more intense, the mapping should get more intense too, this applies for all level of difficulties. In this map, the intense buildup section of the song is followed with an extremely long slider, so all kind of rhythm emphasis is lost for this section. Due to the extremely low density of the map, it is not even possible to follow the song's intensity correctly anyway, but that's another topic. kinda agree about intensity, however in this scenario its clear that sliders are far harder than multiple notes/shorter sliders because of how map is designed, sliders are far hard beacuse of how fast they are compared to the spacing. and i also believe that sliders follow the melody pretty well with shapes they represent.
The spacing of 0.4x is just way too low. This completely ignores the concept of time-distance-equality, because the players have to slow down to less than half of the movement speed when transitioning from a slider to the next object. Moreover, it makes the map look like a giant chain of objects. The stacks don't help with that, either. If you already use such an incredibly low density (which doesn't work, for above mentioned reasons), then atleast spread the objects further out to create movement emphasis, more interesting patterns and use more of the playfield. can't really disagree much here, but i think its still kinda debatable, let's see what krfawy has to say about this. on the side note however, its possible to argue this map focuses on sliders and slider patterns instead of emphasis through movement between objects.
There is a reason why osu! starts with 'Easy' or 'Normal' difficulty levels that are pretty difficult to get into for some people compared to other games. This is a rhythm game and even the easiest maps should meet the required quality standards (following the song well, changing intensity based on the song etc). This one doesn't and should be removed entirely from the mapset, no offense to Krfawy. i thought quality was pretty ok, it just doesn't follow the song traditional ways and im not sure if it's necessarily a bad thing because almost every easy diffs on sets are same anyway, it wouldn't be much different than other easy/beginner diffs if he had done a traditional one, i think in this scenario where we already have lots of easy/beginner diffs that does the same thing, variety is a good thing.
wowww interesting stuff here
My opinion is that Krfawy's diff is fine, I do think the sliders might be a little fast for the spacing used throughout the map, but nothing too out of the ordinary. Removing the diff in it's entirety seems unnecessary, though I have some small recommendations to make the map fit the idea of a starter's difficulty a bit better:
My opinion is that Krfawy's diff is fine, I do think the sliders might be a little fast for the spacing used throughout the map, but nothing too out of the ordinary. Removing the diff in it's entirety seems unnecessary, though I have some small recommendations to make the map fit the idea of a starter's difficulty a bit better:
- 00:08:238 (1) - Make the slider path clearer. As it is right now it's likely confusing for a new player because 1/4th of the slider covers itself in an up/down motion.
- Consider unstacking 00:25:148 (2) - and 00:29:127 (5) - , stacks usually aren't a good idea in easy diffs, new players usually have a very vague concept of rhythm and stacking 3 notes on top of each other usually will lead to the player getting confused and mashing the keys (ya i speak from experience)
As far as I fully understand the point of view that my Beginner difficulty is not that dense, the theory of it ignoring the rhythm is at least contrived and as abstract as an idea of "Krfawy" changing his nickname to "Krwawy".
Firstly, the map is rhythmical as it stresses all the kicks and sounds needed in a pretty obvious and noob-friendly way. Sure, I can agree on the fact it ommits some sounds but still it's done in a regular fashion to make a more fun gameplay just like here: 00:08:238 (1) - it ignores the drumy-clappy like sound on 00:09:233 - but the structure is still straightforward for the newest players and it keeps the rhythm going.
Secondly, the technicality of the song should not allow using the higher spacing with this pace of the song. The actual spacing creates chains, right, and what is wrong with them? They are perfectly visible and catchable and achievable for the audience targeted. Using anything above the digit 0.8 would result in making the spacing a regular jump training for the beginners and now pardon me but the jump trainings are avaiable in Advanced+ diffs and not in the easiest ones. As you said, there is a theory behind making easies and it surely exists but is not used anymore as people think that using relatively high spacing for 1/1 notes like *THIS* for this particular song in the easiest diff is easy enough for the easy playerbase. No, Despie, it is not. That will rather cause people come down with RSI or cancer due to the unrealistically dramatic distances and awful designs.
I am more than sure that I've worded myself in an approachable and so have I mapped my map in that fashion as well. However, if my rejection is going to only slow down the ranking process of the map as you, Desp, are going to veto the map, then I will be more than willing to get my difficulty removed from the set but only if you are going to renominate the map as I am sure that my difficulty being the easiest one is your only concer here and the rest of the set is brilliant in your opinion. If not, I won't agree on removing my difficulty.
EDIT: O Voli's mod here, let me see what you've just written here. XD
00:08:238 (1) - The slider's anchors may be misleading but that's all to be said. The Sliderpath is straighforward for the noobs as I've tested it a few times and I haven't heard any negative remarks about it. *THIS* particular person said the diff was finally the first one that was readable with all sliders and even with the stacks included and even with the actual AR settings, so I believe I don't have to change anything so far. ;3;
Firstly, the map is rhythmical as it stresses all the kicks and sounds needed in a pretty obvious and noob-friendly way. Sure, I can agree on the fact it ommits some sounds but still it's done in a regular fashion to make a more fun gameplay just like here: 00:08:238 (1) - it ignores the drumy-clappy like sound on 00:09:233 - but the structure is still straightforward for the newest players and it keeps the rhythm going.
Secondly, the technicality of the song should not allow using the higher spacing with this pace of the song. The actual spacing creates chains, right, and what is wrong with them? They are perfectly visible and catchable and achievable for the audience targeted. Using anything above the digit 0.8 would result in making the spacing a regular jump training for the beginners and now pardon me but the jump trainings are avaiable in Advanced+ diffs and not in the easiest ones. As you said, there is a theory behind making easies and it surely exists but is not used anymore as people think that using relatively high spacing for 1/1 notes like *THIS* for this particular song in the easiest diff is easy enough for the easy playerbase. No, Despie, it is not. That will rather cause people come down with RSI or cancer due to the unrealistically dramatic distances and awful designs.
I am more than sure that I've worded myself in an approachable and so have I mapped my map in that fashion as well. However, if my rejection is going to only slow down the ranking process of the map as you, Desp, are going to veto the map, then I will be more than willing to get my difficulty removed from the set but only if you are going to renominate the map as I am sure that my difficulty being the easiest one is your only concer here and the rest of the set is brilliant in your opinion. If not, I won't agree on removing my difficulty.
EDIT: O Voli's mod here, let me see what you've just written here. XD
00:08:238 (1) - The slider's anchors may be misleading but that's all to be said. The Sliderpath is straighforward for the noobs as I've tested it a few times and I haven't heard any negative remarks about it. *THIS* particular person said the diff was finally the first one that was readable with all sliders and even with the stacks included and even with the actual AR settings, so I believe I don't have to change anything so far. ;3;
What's the problem with the beginner exactly? In my opinion, the rhythms used fit this song perfectly..
00:00:281 (1,2,3,4) - I think we can agree on that this part suits the music good for this level.
00:08:238 (1,2,3) - This follows the long instrument sound
00:16:196 (1,2,3) - So does this
00:22:164 (4) - and this
00:24:153 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - I also think the rhythm change here fits perfectly because the song changes
00:32:111 (1) - And this is a really creative attempt.
so, what again makes this beginner so bad it needs to be deleted? the distance snap can't really be a problem either, of course you need to follow the slider a bit faster, but i still think that doesn't make the map needing to be deleted..
00:00:281 (1,2,3,4) - I think we can agree on that this part suits the music good for this level.
00:08:238 (1,2,3) - This follows the long instrument sound
00:16:196 (1,2,3) - So does this
00:22:164 (4) - and this
00:24:153 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - I also think the rhythm change here fits perfectly because the song changes
00:32:111 (1) - And this is a really creative attempt.
so, what again makes this beginner so bad it needs to be deleted? the distance snap can't really be a problem either, of course you need to follow the slider a bit faster, but i still think that doesn't make the map needing to be deleted..
How is your username related to this topic?Krfawy wrote:
As far as I fully understand the point of view that my Beginner difficulty is not that dense, the theory of it ignoring the rhythm is at least contrived and as abstract as an idea of "Krfawy" changing his nickname to "Krwawy".
It is 'rhythmical' as in, it follows the song in a so extremely simplified form that it's hard to see what is being followed. Also, our defintions of 'fun' seem to differ here, not sure what's fun about rhythms that sacrifice any rhythm emphasis for having only 3/1-based rhythms everywhere.Krfawy wrote:
Firstly, the map is rhythmical as it stresses all the kicks and sounds needed in a pretty obvious and noob-friendly way. Sure, I can agree on the fact it ommits some sounds but still it's done in a regular fashion to make a more fun gameplay just like here: 00:08:238 (1) - it ignores the drumy-clappy like sound on 00:09:233 - but the structure is still straightforward for the newest players and it keeps the rhythm going.
The problem is that, as I already said clearly in my previous post, the time distance equality gets lost in terms of movement speed and the players have to slow down significantly between sliders to a speed that is almost null. The map is most likely playable for newbies but not because the concept is good but because it's so easy that my grandmother could play this. That doesn't make it a good map, though.Krfawy wrote:
Secondly, the technicality of the song should not allow using the higher spacing with this pace of the song. The actual spacing creates chains, right, and what is wrong with them? They are perfectly visible and catchable and achievable for the audience targeted.
I will just ignore what you said here, because it seems like you are not taking yourself serious at all and honestly I don't know what to reply to this. If you seriously think people get RSI from playing Easies then idk. A high visual gap is only a "jump" when the players need to significantly speed up to hit the next note. Having a high visual spacing between notes that are extremely far away is NOT a jump.Krfawy wrote:
Using anything above the digit 0.8 would result in making the spacing a regular jump training for the beginners and now pardon me but the jump trainings are avaiable in Advanced+ diffs and not in the easiest ones. As you said, there is a theory behind making easies and it surely exists but is not used anymore as people think that using relatively high spacing for 1/1 notes like *THIS* for this particular song in the easiest diff is easy enough for the easy playerbase. No, Despie, it is not. That will rather cause people come down with RSI or cancer due to the unrealistically dramatic distances and awful designs.
I am not going to renominate this regardless of what your decisions will be and you won't force me to.Krfawy wrote:
I am more than sure that I've worded myself in an approachable and so have I mapped my map in that fashion as well. However, if my rejection is going to only slow down the ranking process of the map as you, Desp, are going to veto the map, then I will be more than willing to get my difficulty removed from the set but only if you are going to renominate the map as I am sure that my difficulty being the easiest one is your only concer here and the rest of the set is brilliant in your opinion. If not, I won't agree on removing my difficulty.
Your attitude is pretty bad, because you are arguing against my concerns with unreasonable and laughable statements (like the RSI), not giving actual reasons why mapped the difficulty like this. I agree there could be some easier Easy difficulties ranked to help beginners get into the game, but reducing a song so extremely is not a way to go, because it makes the relation to the song less and less obvious. Even in the context of having such a difficulty level, your difficulty is badly executed like I explained above and I won't let this get ranked, there is not a single reasonable aspect about it besides the slider art.
Sorry Desperate, but I have to make a case in favour of Krfawy's.
First of all, I don't think you understand that games like this with simplified rhythms can actually be quite fun. I myself found this difficulty extremely fun whilst reverting back to my original trackpad settings, I even have a replay here of which I used my default pad settings to play it, and was quite fun.
If you watched (but you don't need to since the point will still stand), then you'll realise that having the small spacing between notes but the slider speed at a faster value like this is actually quite helpful. When you need to do a full swipe movement to move between any note or slider tick, having notes with extra time between them gives a lot of breathing space between the more hectic sliders, and on the sliders themselves, the slider ticks and length are reasonable so that any swipe movements can go from one tick to the next, with the current 3/1 sliders being a reasonable challenge to aim on. This is why I believe the simplified rhythms are quite good, since they actually do contribute to a fairness for a small minority of players who don't actually get to enjoy many maps due to their own hardware limitations.
I don't see what else to say except this kinda difficulty is just what exactly I would've *wanted* to play more of when I began, seeing as I couldn't pass 1 star maps for about three to four days, and every time difficulties like these get removed for being too slow or easy, it just ruins the entire game for the *actual* newbies or just disadvantaged players.
First of all, I don't think you understand that games like this with simplified rhythms can actually be quite fun. I myself found this difficulty extremely fun whilst reverting back to my original trackpad settings, I even have a replay here of which I used my default pad settings to play it, and was quite fun.
If you watched (but you don't need to since the point will still stand), then you'll realise that having the small spacing between notes but the slider speed at a faster value like this is actually quite helpful. When you need to do a full swipe movement to move between any note or slider tick, having notes with extra time between them gives a lot of breathing space between the more hectic sliders, and on the sliders themselves, the slider ticks and length are reasonable so that any swipe movements can go from one tick to the next, with the current 3/1 sliders being a reasonable challenge to aim on. This is why I believe the simplified rhythms are quite good, since they actually do contribute to a fairness for a small minority of players who don't actually get to enjoy many maps due to their own hardware limitations.
I don't see what else to say except this kinda difficulty is just what exactly I would've *wanted* to play more of when I began, seeing as I couldn't pass 1 star maps for about three to four days, and every time difficulties like these get removed for being too slow or easy, it just ruins the entire game for the *actual* newbies or just disadvantaged players.
my 2c
the main problem i think is that the difficulty could fit on to any song with a waltz metronome
current spacing just leaves you on top of the next note waiting for an approachcircle for a whole second whereas i'd argue that there are more intuitive ways of introducing beginners to the game other by "you got to slow down after everything you hit"
it just doesn't seem intuitive to go over twice as fast on sliders than between every other object
00:41:063 (1,1) - these also feel extremely forced after that really long slider especially since there's really clear and distinct 1/1 soudns audible and you map like one of them because it lands on a downbeat or something
also the sb flickers really weirdly at 00:45:042 - is that intentional lol
the main problem i think is that the difficulty could fit on to any song with a waltz metronome
current spacing just leaves you on top of the next note waiting for an approachcircle for a whole second whereas i'd argue that there are more intuitive ways of introducing beginners to the game other by "you got to slow down after everything you hit"
it just doesn't seem intuitive to go over twice as fast on sliders than between every other object
00:41:063 (1,1) - these also feel extremely forced after that really long slider especially since there's really clear and distinct 1/1 soudns audible and you map like one of them because it lands on a downbeat or something
also the sb flickers really weirdly at 00:45:042 - is that intentional lol
Topic Starter
nop talked with kirby and kirby fixed.Okorin wrote:
also the sb flickers really weirdly at 00:45:042 - is that intentional lol
I've checked the map in detail again, and I've come to the conclusion that there is really no problem with the map. I have also discussed with Desperate-kun, so there's that.
Yes, one might argue about the Beginner being not dense enough at spots, where there could be more objects placed but is that a problem, if the mapper decides to follow the whole part with a slider, which covers it in a new way? I don't think so. This is additionally a very creative solution, to let the player experience a new way of playing an "Easy"-Difficulty. He can train to follow a slider intensely - which can also be beneficial for maps which contain similar cases.
The problem about not having too much spacing between the objects should not be an issue at all for beginner players. We can gladly ask player to play this difficulty - I'm pretty sure that there won't be any problems to play it, as it will be clear what exactly needs to be clicked - this furthermore is another reason why the rhythm should be kept simple.
Then there's the problem with the map not following the song properly and I'm sorry, but this is definitely not the case here. It follows the instruments just fine - I don't really see where the argument of simplifying rhythm comes from to be honest, because isn't the aim of an Easy difficulty to have begnner-friendly rhythm, so they don't get confused?
That's the reason why I've decided to re-check this mapset in future, so it can be rebubbled again. Holding a veto against this seems definitely not like the right choice in this case.
Yes, one might argue about the Beginner being not dense enough at spots, where there could be more objects placed but is that a problem, if the mapper decides to follow the whole part with a slider, which covers it in a new way? I don't think so. This is additionally a very creative solution, to let the player experience a new way of playing an "Easy"-Difficulty. He can train to follow a slider intensely - which can also be beneficial for maps which contain similar cases.
The problem about not having too much spacing between the objects should not be an issue at all for beginner players. We can gladly ask player to play this difficulty - I'm pretty sure that there won't be any problems to play it, as it will be clear what exactly needs to be clicked - this furthermore is another reason why the rhythm should be kept simple.
Then there's the problem with the map not following the song properly and I'm sorry, but this is definitely not the case here. It follows the instruments just fine - I don't really see where the argument of simplifying rhythm comes from to be honest, because isn't the aim of an Easy difficulty to have begnner-friendly rhythm, so they don't get confused?
That's the reason why I've decided to re-check this mapset in future, so it can be rebubbled again. Holding a veto against this seems definitely not like the right choice in this case.
Why a Light Insane map have in the final of song changes in SV of x1,50 and then x2,00?
Beautiful in Editor, but Terrible and Horrible play this, totally unpredictable, the same in the middle of music, if you want to change the SV, change in max 1,5
Beautiful in Editor, but Terrible and Horrible play this, totally unpredictable, the same in the middle of music, if you want to change the SV, change in max 1,5
honestly, I can't see how it plays "terrible and horrible", because it seems perfectly fine for me, in middle part 1/2 gaps between sliders are making htting it trivial, so I decided to keep it
after discussing with diri. we changed finale to 1.25x-1.0x.-0.75x though to better express music
thanks for your time!
after discussing with diri. we changed finale to 1.25x-1.0x.-0.75x though to better express music
thanks for your time!
well, I guess I was too prone to accept this since I considered my opinion to be not so relevant (oh, looks like I'm apparently someone whose opinion is actually valuable in this context tho. I didn't know this :^) )MrSergio wrote:
Having a beginner in the set is frankly not needed at all. The easy is already easy enough, not to mention the song is short
Like.. seriously... 00:32:111 (1) - 10 secs of slider. Just why, it's boring as hell
Apart from that ^ , I do see the Beginner as pointless in the set tho and I told you at least a couple of times already.
My reasons are mainly that 1) it is hella boring with that 10 secs sliderart and 2) it ignores a lot, and I mean A LOT, of rhythms in the song. At this point it is like normally clicking at random since the pauses between each click is huge. You barely have any resilient trace of ~rhythm~.
It is ok to make something easy for new players, but this is already a 40 sec song and you pretend to even simplify this more than what is actually needed.
Unless our new players are really at such level to require something like this, obviously.
Perfect for me when I started, would love to have more way simplified maps like thisMrSergio wrote:
Unless our new players are really at such level to require something like this, obviously.
Topic Starter
i had tries playing osu with trackpad sometime, and surprisingly enough i couldnt really pass most easy difficulties in sets since i dont really know how to use trackpad in osu, and i did use trackpad before in my life for other stuff so its not like i have 0 knowledge of it.
considering someone who isnt too familiar with computers and wanted to play osu, most easy diffs are actually too hard for them and i believe that is where krfawys beginner is necessary.i also dont really believw the map doesnt hinders the sets quality by any means whatsoever.
considering someone who isnt too familiar with computers and wanted to play osu, most easy diffs are actually too hard for them and i believe that is where krfawys beginner is necessary.i also dont really believw the map doesnt hinders the sets quality by any means whatsoever.
I wanted to wait for a proper reply from Krfawy, but might as well throw this in here now.
I know that a lot of beginners struggle with the Easys we have, that's no question. But you'll find this situation in nearly every rhythm game and there is a simple reason: Reducing the difficulty too much will result in rhythmic simplifications to such an extent that the relation to the music is ruined, which goes against the concept of a rhythm game. If you are making a platformer game you can create a tutorial stage as easy as you want because you are the one who fully decides about the concept of the stage, how many obstacles there are etc. But for a rhythm game you are bound to what the song provides, and this doesn't only have an upper limit but also a lower limit, because there's a line (that has been crossed here) where the rhythms become unidentifiable.
It's nice that you are having contact to newbies and ask them how easy it is for them to get into the game and how well they play certain things. Have you ever asked them though, how much do they feel that osu! maps relate to the actual song? Most people I've talked to, especially those with some musical knowledge who aren't satisfied with simply 'doing well-timed clicks to the beat', don't get how most modern Easys relate to the song at all. I've had people literally asking me what about osu! is supposed to be a rhythm game. And this map is a very extreme case of this issue.
Now, I didn't point out specific rhythms where I see those issues before, because it basically applies to the whole map. However, I will do this now, to make my point more clear. I really don't want to create any confusion with what I am saying here. With the conception in mind, that the whole map is supposed to follow the melody (which I can see only because I have some experience in mapping, I highly doubt newbies will be able to see this):
00:00:281 (1,2,3,4) - In this part of the song, there is clear emphasis on the switch between strings and the other melody instrument. The repeated sliders go well with the soft instrument, but then the strings have a much more dense, strong rhythm that puts emphasis on much more than just 00:03:265 (2,4) - these beats.
00:08:238 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - The long sliders fit well to the long melody notes in the music in theory, however (again, due to the extreme rhythmic simplicity) the same rhythm is used multiple times in a row, while the music is so different each time. 00:10:227 - has no sound, 00:14:206 - has a sound, 00:18:185 - has no sound again (from the melody). What the melody does, also in terms of how strong certain notes are played, is different in each measure here, however it's all mapped with the same, monotonous rhythms.
00:24:153 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - Once again, 00:24:153 (1,2,3) - actually fits the melody quite well, because there is very strong emphasis on those beats here, but between those objects 00:26:143 (3,4) - the instrument clearly builds up in intensity to lead back into 00:28:132 - to repeat the rhythm again. Having more density in between those objects would ressemble the song better, but as it is now it's all just 3/1-rhythms without much emphasis at all.
00:32:111 (1,1) - And yes, I still stand by my point that the long slider is out of place if it covers the most intense section of the song completely. Not clicking at all throughout this whole section takes away all kind of rhythm emphasis from this section, where it's probably needed the most. About the last note, Okorin already explained that there are equally important beats around it.
So yeah, I hope this can serve as a better explanation why I disagree with the rhythm this map uses.
Now, to talk about the spacing again. No matter what way you put it, 0.4x DS in this case is so low that there is almost no movement required for the timeframe of almost a whole second (gap between two of the beats followed). It makes no sense in the context of a map because almost no movement means basically no emphasis through movement. All of the objects in the map might as well be stacked and it would make no difference gameplay wise (not counting readability). Saying that a higher spacing would be too difficult to play for newbies is unreasonable, because the sliders themselves are significantly faster and require more precision during their timeframe (due to sliderticks having to be aimed, etc.). Krfawy, you basically said that players can aim the sliders well, even on this realatively high speed (which is true) but if the spacing were higher they couldn't aim the circles? It makes no sense.
I hope my points are a bit more clear now, since people also requested me to point out examples. Here we go.
I know that a lot of beginners struggle with the Easys we have, that's no question. But you'll find this situation in nearly every rhythm game and there is a simple reason: Reducing the difficulty too much will result in rhythmic simplifications to such an extent that the relation to the music is ruined, which goes against the concept of a rhythm game. If you are making a platformer game you can create a tutorial stage as easy as you want because you are the one who fully decides about the concept of the stage, how many obstacles there are etc. But for a rhythm game you are bound to what the song provides, and this doesn't only have an upper limit but also a lower limit, because there's a line (that has been crossed here) where the rhythms become unidentifiable.
It's nice that you are having contact to newbies and ask them how easy it is for them to get into the game and how well they play certain things. Have you ever asked them though, how much do they feel that osu! maps relate to the actual song? Most people I've talked to, especially those with some musical knowledge who aren't satisfied with simply 'doing well-timed clicks to the beat', don't get how most modern Easys relate to the song at all. I've had people literally asking me what about osu! is supposed to be a rhythm game. And this map is a very extreme case of this issue.
Now, I didn't point out specific rhythms where I see those issues before, because it basically applies to the whole map. However, I will do this now, to make my point more clear. I really don't want to create any confusion with what I am saying here. With the conception in mind, that the whole map is supposed to follow the melody (which I can see only because I have some experience in mapping, I highly doubt newbies will be able to see this):
00:00:281 (1,2,3,4) - In this part of the song, there is clear emphasis on the switch between strings and the other melody instrument. The repeated sliders go well with the soft instrument, but then the strings have a much more dense, strong rhythm that puts emphasis on much more than just 00:03:265 (2,4) - these beats.
00:08:238 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - The long sliders fit well to the long melody notes in the music in theory, however (again, due to the extreme rhythmic simplicity) the same rhythm is used multiple times in a row, while the music is so different each time. 00:10:227 - has no sound, 00:14:206 - has a sound, 00:18:185 - has no sound again (from the melody). What the melody does, also in terms of how strong certain notes are played, is different in each measure here, however it's all mapped with the same, monotonous rhythms.
00:24:153 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - Once again, 00:24:153 (1,2,3) - actually fits the melody quite well, because there is very strong emphasis on those beats here, but between those objects 00:26:143 (3,4) - the instrument clearly builds up in intensity to lead back into 00:28:132 - to repeat the rhythm again. Having more density in between those objects would ressemble the song better, but as it is now it's all just 3/1-rhythms without much emphasis at all.
00:32:111 (1,1) - And yes, I still stand by my point that the long slider is out of place if it covers the most intense section of the song completely. Not clicking at all throughout this whole section takes away all kind of rhythm emphasis from this section, where it's probably needed the most. About the last note, Okorin already explained that there are equally important beats around it.
So yeah, I hope this can serve as a better explanation why I disagree with the rhythm this map uses.
Now, to talk about the spacing again. No matter what way you put it, 0.4x DS in this case is so low that there is almost no movement required for the timeframe of almost a whole second (gap between two of the beats followed). It makes no sense in the context of a map because almost no movement means basically no emphasis through movement. All of the objects in the map might as well be stacked and it would make no difference gameplay wise (not counting readability). Saying that a higher spacing would be too difficult to play for newbies is unreasonable, because the sliders themselves are significantly faster and require more precision during their timeframe (due to sliderticks having to be aimed, etc.). Krfawy, you basically said that players can aim the sliders well, even on this realatively high speed (which is true) but if the spacing were higher they couldn't aim the circles? It makes no sense.
I hope my points are a bit more clear now, since people also requested me to point out examples. Here we go.
My statement was clearly implying sarcasm. This sort of rhythms can't be called rhythms anymore considering how clicks are spaced apart lol.Arphimigon wrote:
Perfect for me when I started, would love to have more way simplified maps like thisMrSergio wrote:
Unless our new players are really at such level to require something like this, obviously.
A song is made by pauses between notes, but if such pauses are too long it will be just a bunch of notes played from time to time. That's not a song anymore imo and therefore a map is not possible on it.
Please don't come up with excuses as "when I tried to play with trackpad" or "when I was a newbie..." because I bet you don't remember exactly and as Desp said, even if you do remember you probably couldn't analyze things properly at the time.
Also, notice this is not a personal attack towards anyone. I (or we) just want to make sense out of it, if I can say it that way...
#m0d
Topic Starter
Finally done with that piece of worthless junk. Crap, Krfawy, when you started making things like Kac (TV Size) and Prologue, I actually started getting my hopes up that you were finally going to break out of your terrible Slut Off and Caged Heart stage and start cranking out truly admirable maps. Even though Wiosna raised a red flag or two, I still had high hopes. And then this self-indulgent pretentious abomination gets vomitted onto the site. This is not only your worst map, but possibly the worst map I have ever seen. Why? Others were bad as satire, ignorance, age, or inexperience. You qualify for none of these categories, you have no excuse. Believe me, I have nothing against Instrumental Songs, be it piano, guitar, or flute. And I have no problem with someone in the osu community championing the genre as a flagship of broadening horizons. What I do have a problem with is that you, the person championing it, have absolutely no respect for the music or its structure. At the slightest strum of a guitar or hit of a snare drum, you are more than happy to start disregarding the music and just throwing ugly and pointless anti-jumps where you just make the distance and position anywhere you feel like, no matter how awful the end result is. This vulgar excuse for a map reeks of every stupid and arrogant Krfawism the community has had to bear witness to: Extreme anti-jumps with no musical reasoning, sky low DS at all times, streams that just not decide to jump to some random part of the playing field with no warning because you didn't map streams, buckshot spread patterns with no cohesive structure, no streams that space out to absurd degrees because again, they don't exist, rampant abuse of no SV changes and no BPM modification to cover up lazy mapping, slider anti-jumps that clearly are just cases of Ctrl+H and Ctrl+J abuse, and worst of all, using the music genre as your own little shield to justify every little moment of "I map like this because fuck you, I'm Krfawy" you can stuff in your pathetic and self-subservient maps. Stop using songs as canvases for your abhorrent "artistry", stop using your cult of personality to force your lazy work on others, and stop thinking that maps are good just because a computer designed to perfectly perform with flaw can manage to beat it.
No, I do play with trackpad and these kind of easier difficulties are great for it.MrSergio wrote:
Please don't come up with excuses as "when I tried to play with trackpad" or "when I was a newbie..." because I bet you don't remember exactly and as Desp said, even if you do remember you probably couldn't analyze things properly at the time.
And I may not remember exactly what it was like to be new, but I do have many new players as friends and I play many easy maps myself. Now I can analyze them now and still have this position, my points still stay the same.
My replay says otherwise, had just as much trouble on the circles as the slidersDesperate wrote:
Krfawy, you basically said that players can aim the sliders well, even on this realatively high speed (which is true) but if the spacing were higher they couldn't aim the circles? It makes no sense.
Simplified rhythm isn't "non rhythm game" like, it's a simple difficulty for a game. It still has a rhythm, and even yet, the rhythm exists.
Oh geez... 
I certainly hope this situation isn't going to get any worse. While there are lots of controversy for Extra difficulties and the like, it's certainly unconventional to see so much attention set on a Beginner difficulty either. I know there are concerns about whether the difficulty, or lack thereof, in a map and whether it's trivial, but perhaps there could be improvements or at least a compromise that can make it work.
I don't think there really the one correct assessment of what a beginner should or should not expect aside from the standard mapset conventions we have existing. We could theorize or think about how the ideal newbie is going to play osu!, but we're going to have our own subjective views on it. My personal viewpoint, if it helps to improve everyone's perspectives, is that 181 BPM is on the upper echelon of speed, and while having constant 1/1 notes does follow Easy difficulty conventions, it can be a bit challenging for a player to try keeping up. So I can see that the Beginner difficulty has value in that the notes are spaced as if it's 90 BPM 1/1, though I do agree that the spacing could be increased a bit more, or perhaps a few more notes could be added. My perspective is based on the rhythms of DDR games though, and the Beginner difficulty generally follows that well, as the empty beats help give a player time to react, whereas the Easy difficulty is not as forgiving. Though one could say that the sliders may help with that reaction too, but I guess this is where hypothetical situations and theorycrafting reach imaginative levels.
But either way, it's going to be really difficult to contend for arguments like how beginner players are going to respond to this, since things can vary. I think, really, it's best for Krfawy to come by and discuss with Desperate's points he brought up and either agree, respectfully disagree, or work out a compromise between the two. The better matter would be addressing these concerns, and if in disagreement, why so.
With this much discussion, you can certainly see that there's a bit of tension and frustration in the room. While I don't think it's right for diri to make a meme post (albeit it gives me chuckles), I think we can all see as to why there's this kind of eggpain here. After all, the natural inclination would be to think, "Why focus so much attention on this? It's just a beginner difficulty, for crying out loud!". Though it's nice to see there be consideration for beginner players too.
I say just wait for what Krfawy has to say, and we all take it easy and see where we can go from there. Just relax and enjoy how cute and moe Granat-chan is. <3
I certainly hope this situation isn't going to get any worse. While there are lots of controversy for Extra difficulties and the like, it's certainly unconventional to see so much attention set on a Beginner difficulty either. I know there are concerns about whether the difficulty, or lack thereof, in a map and whether it's trivial, but perhaps there could be improvements or at least a compromise that can make it work.I don't think there really the one correct assessment of what a beginner should or should not expect aside from the standard mapset conventions we have existing. We could theorize or think about how the ideal newbie is going to play osu!, but we're going to have our own subjective views on it. My personal viewpoint, if it helps to improve everyone's perspectives, is that 181 BPM is on the upper echelon of speed, and while having constant 1/1 notes does follow Easy difficulty conventions, it can be a bit challenging for a player to try keeping up. So I can see that the Beginner difficulty has value in that the notes are spaced as if it's 90 BPM 1/1, though I do agree that the spacing could be increased a bit more, or perhaps a few more notes could be added. My perspective is based on the rhythms of DDR games though, and the Beginner difficulty generally follows that well, as the empty beats help give a player time to react, whereas the Easy difficulty is not as forgiving. Though one could say that the sliders may help with that reaction too, but I guess this is where hypothetical situations and theorycrafting reach imaginative levels.
But either way, it's going to be really difficult to contend for arguments like how beginner players are going to respond to this, since things can vary. I think, really, it's best for Krfawy to come by and discuss with Desperate's points he brought up and either agree, respectfully disagree, or work out a compromise between the two. The better matter would be addressing these concerns, and if in disagreement, why so.
With this much discussion, you can certainly see that there's a bit of tension and frustration in the room. While I don't think it's right for diri to make a meme post (albeit it gives me chuckles), I think we can all see as to why there's this kind of eggpain here. After all, the natural inclination would be to think, "Why focus so much attention on this? It's just a beginner difficulty, for crying out loud!". Though it's nice to see there be consideration for beginner players too.
I say just wait for what Krfawy has to say, and we all take it easy and see where we can go from there. Just relax and enjoy how cute and moe Granat-chan is. <3
Best said by the one and only Kirby
Topic Starter
ya, by no means my post was directed to anyone here, i was merely trying to chill the mood. if someone is offended from it feel free to remove/edit the post, but i personally think its pretty funny /me runs