But that's a wrong assessment - you don't have to play DT to be considered better in actuality, only to have more pp - which isn't necessary to enjoying the game in the first place.
Yeah, thats "right" but hey, the point of having the leaderboards/rankings is for something, despite the fact that I can be considered better at X skillset even tho the system doesnt tell that to anyone. Whatever, you get meYuudachi-kun wrote:
But that's a wrong assessment - you don't have to play DT to be considered better in actuality, only to have more pp - which isn't necessary to enjoying the game in the first place.
But you're allowed nomod/DT scores now on the scoreboards right? The same as it's always been - people can play whatever but you can see thier DT scores now.juankristal wrote:
Yeah, thats "right" but hey, the point of having the leaderboards/rankings is for something, despite the fact that I can be considered better at X skillset even tho the system doesnt tell that to anyone. Whatever, you get meYuudachi-kun wrote:
But that's a wrong assessment - you don't have to play DT to be considered better in actuality, only to have more pp - which isn't necessary to enjoying the game in the first place.
I have to say, prior to this update, what you are saying about DT was pretty much replaced with 7k which I think is even worse from a competitive stand point. I'm sure you don't disagree that the previous system was flawed, though.juankristal wrote:
Yuudachi-kun wrote:
I dont want to play anymore because I have to play DT in order to be considered "better", I think the system now leads you into the wrong path. And I dont want to rank any maps either because it would be just ranking the map in a 1.5x version no matter the circustances and I find that pretty demotivating.
There is no reason to just play nomod anymore so yeah, that doesnt help. I used to have fun trying to beat my friends scores on maps but now is just the same in 1.5x speed. That kind of gamestyle is in my eyes just flat out boring.
You can't really compare mania to other modes. It's very different in terms of the PP system in where it gives no combo bonus or anything of the sort it relies solely on accuracy. Also I really don't think mania should have an AR. It seems pretty pointless and wouldn't be comfortable for many players. DT is there to speed up the map itself not the scroll speed. And in turn DT does take a lot of skill In mania, no matter how you look at kt there is skill that goes into it you can't just smash your keyboard at 300bpm expecting to pass. Sure at higher difficulties you smash your keyboard at points, but everything else takes a lot of skill. Also EZ only affect CTB and Standard in reading ability at higher density maps. So it's pretty irrelevant to bring up in mania as again it's a different mode completely. A 6 star standard gives different pp than a 6 star in taiko and CTB with DT so your last point doesn't make much sense either. Scroll speed was never the most difficult part of mania and that's why it has no modifier in the PP systemHe Ang Erika wrote:
The idea and purpose is good, but the metrics is poor. 2.5k pp for non-FC play is a little too much. It should be more tame :O
I do have a concern about DT in Mania. In other modes you are either forced to play with godly reaction on DT alone, or have your screen clustered with hit-objects on EZ DT. Unlike all other modes, the scroll speed in Mania can be adjusted regardless of the maps to suit the reading abilities of the player. It's akin to warping an AR11 DT map into an AR8 DT map but it gives the same pp regardless. So DT in Mania should not give as much pp other modes, because the players have the choice to play in their comfort zones of reading.
:O
??????He Ang Erika wrote:
All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.
Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).
So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.
Definitely a step in the right direction, though I think reducing the exponential curve of SR is also integral to band-aiding the PP formula for now. I feel that 850K should achieve about 75% of the maximum StrainBase (not directly PP, but it's a very major component of it anyway) and 925K for 90%.abraker wrote:
A step in the right direction, but tripped over its own feet and needs to get up. We also saw this bump from a mile away when we asked for this on the Feature Request subforum. Obviously the next step is to fix SR, but I don't that will come soon enough. Imo, the quick fix to this is to just make the score to pp curve steeper for now. While it won't fix underrated/overrated maps, it should fix players getting huge pp with unacceptable acc.
This leads to the following question(s):
Around what score/% would it be reasonable to achieve about 3/4 or of max pp on a map and 9/10 of max pp on a map?
Excuse me as I go shoot myself in the face because this is one of the dumbest things I have ever heardHe Ang Erika wrote:
All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.
Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).
So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.
You can just change scroll speed to 1 and profit? I dont think the AR thing makes sense in general, in mania you manipulate the scroll of stuff in nomod so it should give more PP if you use 40 scroll speed with you arguments.He Ang Erika wrote:
All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.
Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).
So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.
try out mania man !He Ang Erika wrote:
All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.
Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).
So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.
I don't see why you keep comparing mania to other modes...it isn't the same at all. If I were to compare Taiko to CTB then HDFL shouldn't be readable on CTB because in Taiko its impossible to read as all the objects are hidden. And how about combo bomus? Shouldn't CTB stop it's combo bonus at 200 like taiko? See what I mean it's really not relevant at all. These are different modes with different scoring and pp is calculated differently across all modes. Sure to players new to mania it seems like it's broken being able to change scroll speed but when you get to playing it you will notice it changes nothing about how you play. In lots of situations lower scroll makes it impossible to read patterns where higher scroll makes it easier as you just rely on reactions. If changing the scroll speed makes mania so easy then you should have no problem playing it right?He Ang Erika wrote:
All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.
Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).
So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.
jesus christ dude he has a familymoni wrote:
try out mania man !
Whoa dude nice joke you really got us there!He Ang Erika wrote:
All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.
Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).
So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.
By this logic, why am i not a top tier player?????? :thinking:He Ang Erika wrote:
All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now.
Nice baitHe Ang Erika wrote:
All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.
Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).
So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.
n1He Ang Erika wrote:
All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.
Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).
So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.
can't tell if serious or actually stupidHe Ang Erika wrote:
All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.
Yetified wrote:
can't tell if serious or actually stupidHe Ang Erika wrote:
All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.
we should swap namesHe Ang Erika wrote:
All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.
Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).
So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.
Btw Taiko point combo bonus stops at 100 not 200. Kinda similar to how Mania score V2 stopped the combo bonus at 400.Cawub wrote:
And how about combo bomus? Shouldn't CTB stop it's combo bonus at 200 like taiko?
He Ang Erika wrote:
All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.
Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).
So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.
Can we direct our attention to thisShoegazer wrote:
Definitely a step in the right direction, though I think reducing the exponential curve of SR is also integral to band-aiding the PP formula for now. I feel that 850K should achieve about 75% of the maximum StrainBase (not directly PP, but it's a very major component of it anyway) and 925K for 90%.abraker wrote:
A step in the right direction, but tripped over its own feet and needs to get up. We also saw this bump from a mile away when we asked for this on the Feature Request subforum. Obviously the next step is to fix SR, but I don't that will come soon enough. Imo, the quick fix to this is to just make the score to pp curve steeper for now. While it won't fix underrated/overrated maps, it should fix players getting huge pp with unacceptable acc.
This leads to the following question(s):
Around what score/% would it be reasonable to achieve about 3/4 or of max pp on a map and 9/10 of max pp on a map?
(I'm currently fiddling with some numbers to properly scale StrainBase vs. SR and also StrainBase% and score, it looks fine for now but I probably need some practical tests first too)
StrainBase% vs Score formula should be dependent on the map.Shoegazer wrote:
Definitely a step in the right direction, though I think reducing the exponential curve of SR is also integral to band-aiding the PP formula for now. I feel that 850K should achieve about 75% of the maximum StrainBase (not directly PP, but it's a very major component of it anyway) and 925K for 90%.abraker wrote:
A step in the right direction, but tripped over its own feet and needs to get up. We also saw this bump from a mile away when we asked for this on the Feature Request subforum. Obviously the next step is to fix SR, but I don't that will come soon enough. Imo, the quick fix to this is to just make the score to pp curve steeper for now. While it won't fix underrated/overrated maps, it should fix players getting huge pp with unacceptable acc.
This leads to the following question(s):
Around what score/% would it be reasonable to achieve about 3/4 or of max pp on a map and 9/10 of max pp on a map?
(I'm currently fiddling with some numbers to properly scale StrainBase vs. SR and also StrainBase% and score, it looks fine for now but I probably need some practical tests first too)
This is actually the most effective and sensible way to go at it and should be implemented immediately are u guys memeingHe Ang Erika wrote:
All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.
Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).
So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.
Erlkonig wrote:
This is actually the most effective and sensible way to go at it and should be implemented immediately are u guys memeingHe Ang Erika wrote:
All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.
Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).
So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.
That's the best way to go if SR isn't fixed, yeah. I assumed that the spikiness will be accommodated for in a future revision of SR and the PP formula will be modified in response to that, which is why I didn't consider it.Full Tablet wrote:
For example:
Map A: A Marathon map that is relatively easy for the most part, except for 4 hard sections that have about 10% of the notes in total.
Map B: A cut of the previous map, only taking one of the hard sections.
Because most of Map A is easy, it's easy to get a relatively high score (~900k), but getting more than that requires much more skill, since it requires playing the hard parts properly; getting a near-perfect score is very hard.
In Map B, getting 900K requires considerably more skill than in map A (no easy parts to get easy score on), but getting a near-perfect score is slightly easier than in Map A. Getting a very low score shouldn't be rated high, since the map is so short it's likely to hit a relatively big portion of the notes by lucky mashing.
The score vs pp curve of the maps could look like this:
Full Tablet wrote:
StrainBase% vs Score formula should be dependent on the map.Shoegazer wrote:
Definitely a step in the right direction, though I think reducing the exponential curve of SR is also integral to band-aiding the PP formula for now. I feel that 850K should achieve about 75% of the maximum StrainBase (not directly PP, but it's a very major component of it anyway) and 925K for 90%.
(I'm currently fiddling with some numbers to properly scale StrainBase vs. SR and also StrainBase% and score, it looks fine for now but I probably need some practical tests first too)
For example:
Map A: A Marathon map that is relatively easy for the most part, except for 4 hard sections that have about 10% of the notes in total.
Map B: A cut of the previous map, only taking one of the hard sections.
Because most of Map A is easy, it's easy to get a relatively high score (~900k), but getting more than that requires much more skill, since it requires playing the hard parts properly; getting a near-perfect score is very hard.
In Map B, getting 900K requires considerably more skill than in map A (no easy parts to get easy score on), but getting a near-perfect score is slightly easier than in Map A. Getting a very low score shouldn't be rated high, since the map is so short it's likely to hit a relatively big portion of the notes by lucky mashing.
The score vs pp curve of the maps could look like this:
I love youRedon wrote:
You guys all seem to assume there are people in charge of mania development who are interested in putting actual effort into improving the mode in ways that don't involve porting over ideas from standard
why isn't this thread closed alreadyHe Ang Erika wrote:
All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.
Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).
So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.