ezpp

It's a really, REALLY bad idea. SR system is already broken, It's just adding more gasoline into the fire. Mappers will start to chart differently with DT in mind, and everyone will just play these broken maps. But, hey, PP is the only reason to play this game for everyone, so the crowd is excited...

Totestrieb basically said everything.

What happened? What's changed?

HoarseFish wrote:

What happened? What's changed?

DT is no longer disregarded on mania pp computations

Ok what, where did they talk about this

Eraser wrote:

Ok what, where did they talk about this

I'm pretty sure they just did it. I never saw anything about it anywhere not on twitter or forums.

I think this is bad implemented, because people can gain easy PP in higher key (I called abnormal key for non 4K) and believe me half population people on OSU can wearing glasses because this

Honestly I think they should have at least gotten community input on this before even implementing it, or they should have at least put a discussion thread in place like they did with scorev2. By the looks of it the majority of the community isn't very happy with it.

Since DT gives a slight bonus to score, unless there is some sort of penalty for DT in pp calculations, DT scores give slightly more pp than they should.

Overall, making DT give the amount of pp that corresponds to it's star rating doesn't make the system more broken. In effect, it makes the amount of pp given for a DT play closer to the value it should give.

Full Tablet wrote:

Since DT gives a slight bonus to score, unless there is some sort of penalty for DT in pp calculations, DT scores give slightly more pp than they should.

Overall, making DT give the amount of pp that corresponds to it's star rating doesn't make the system more broken. In effect, it makes the amount of pp given for a DT play closer to the value it should give.

yea, this is correct, if 1.5x rate maps were ranked it would be as expected, however, the current ranking system doesn't really consider the case of 1.5x map ranked at all, hence, these "newly ranked maps" pretty much broke boundaries that weren't expected.

think the core problem is, however, the star rating, personally wouldn't say that it's useless, however, the rating kind of gets rather unfair and seemingly more inaccurately rated at higher densities, it's quite a sudden adjustment to what osu!mania is used to right now

think that enabling dt would definitely favor those who can vibro/jack well instead of complementing every skillset equally in terms of pp, will most likely see top 50 of osu!mania being "refreshed" with new players that are better in certain skillsets and drop those who cannot keep up. While i do not think that it'll become fairer, others may think otherwise in the future i suppose

HOLY fuck the mania rankings
damn

I don't know if I should be happy or not, but it has their own ups and downs whatsoever.

Positive side, say, your skills in some variations (either jack, streams, or vibro) just like Evening said, will be tested. It's pretty nice to see their own potential on how limit they have. And yes, it yields greater rewards when you succeed.

However, the downside is, not even close to healthy if you consider playing on a burst of speed mods. It's never getting any better if just stick only to DT and just farming pp-s and all. Plus, beatmappers will tend to get a different approach on to map songs which density and the harsh sections provided will not inflate star ratings as well. I do honestly believe that they need to correct the star rating and density for nominators to pick up maps to be ranked, as for me.

uuhhh i just got this information when my local community is on fire about this stuff
majority still consider this thing is trash and i can't argue with it. the downside is a lot more "powerful" than the upside despite how many arguments pointed at both side
(for my opinion... at least)

yeah, this is pretty fucking terrible honestly

i'm done playing the game; i expected a boost in PP to happen but i didn't think that it was gonna be stupid enough to the point where people can literally get 2K+ PP runs on songs now. game's ruined for me.

sucks really bad

All I want to say is: It's bad! It's honestly bad!!
I'm not saying the PP system, star rating system because it's all broken 2 years ago, it's not changing anything, we didn't said we need DT PP score system, or score v2 too
I thought changes like this must be go throught community argeements before let it get into score system permanently
It's now being abuse, it's not only affected PP system itself but affected all mappers (well, not all)

Why?
1. They will always think "Players will play this map with double time so I must make this patterns so easy, HP OD drain small so they're be able to pass it easier too
2.
Player A: Move this move that for easier pattern
Player B: Igrone the music, we don't need it, just move it to here then we're good
Player C: This map is totally trash, no PP, I hate it


With all that effectives, I believe not many mappers would map the map like what they want anymore, must need to neat for A,B,C so they don't hate this map etc. so the map would be no souls at all, even thought it's their maps (?). That's when I'm not mentioning the map quality.

TL;DR: It's bad! Wrong and worse than before. We need ROLLBACK.

(My apologies If I'm saying anything wrong)

DT should boost score, not allow for an additional run per chart.

What this has done is create a schism between accuracy players and speed players. Players who are capable of sharpshooting but not spraying and praying are left with the short end of the stick, and can't do anything about it. So they leave. Why should they have to play god awful sr-abused charts (fucking jumptrills mang) faster for the sake of an arbitrary value?



*not said by me

Quality over quantity, fix the core mechanics of pp yielding and star rating instead of providing newer mechanics that branch off of an unstable platform.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DCk_Meuw0A

delicious pp rain

But seriously, I don't see this being a good thing for map variety in the long run, especially if we see more Triumph and Regret-like maps while maps like Apparition get passed over. What Pope said about speed vs. accuracy is pretty spot-on too.

It's gonna be interesting to see old 4k songs feel like Blastix Riotz or Japanese Transformation 403 FORBIDDEN though

doesnt really bother me too much, everyone will get used to it eventually and it promotes improvement - regardless of how unnecessary it might seem

As one of the top-50 players, I have a bit different opinion to many others here.

The star rating is a bit broken, yes. The pp system is a bit broken, I can agree with that.
However, the very first reason we use the pp system is to measure the player's ability - then it makes good sense to give higher pp to DT plays over nomod ones for the same map, considering the actual difficulty of playing (SR goes up by 1.5~2.0, and it's actually usually harder than other nomod maps with similar SR)
And seeing that super players pass literally any mania map with DT (even Ascension to Heaven and TLDNR got DT passes), being seemingly unplayable is not an issue - they just play and take their score and pp, and they deserve the pp because they have the ability to do so.

For those who got discouraged due to the pp inflation, it will take some time to accept it, but IMHO, many players will eventually settle with a few "everyone's DT maps" like the standard players did (I'm not degrading them; they - and I - have their own playing styles and enjoy the game even though many of them cannot do the DT farms) and the ranking will stabilize at the point.

On the mapping side, I'm a newbie in the area but I see the point of Kyoka (and other mappers, not here).
Definitely, mapping in favor of DT is a bad thing (some of it is already done in std). However, just like lots of std mappers just don't bother with pp mapping (including DT-favor mapping), many mania mappers will just map as they did till now. And again, super players will pass non-DT-mapped maps with DT anyway, so DT mapping would not be something to consider as a mapper.
But yes, some modders will still want easier DT maps. Rejecting them is up to the mappers, and I hope they do so.

TL;DR -
1) As a player, the thing is not too bad, and it can differentiate top players' abilities to hard maps using pp.
2) For the mapping community, some care will be needed, but (hopefully) it will not be a disaster as many think.

Bubbler wrote:

As one of the top-50 players, I have a bit different opinion to many others here.

The star rating is a bit broken, yes. The pp system is a bit broken, I can agree with that.
However, the very first reason we use the pp system is to measure the player's ability - then it makes good sense to give higher pp to DT plays over nomod ones for the same map, considering the actual difficulty of playing (SR goes up by 1.5~2.0, and it's actually usually harder than other nomod maps with similar SR)
And seeing that super players pass literally any mania map with DT (even Ascension to Heaven and TLDNR got DT passes), being seemingly unplayable is not an issue - they just play and take their score and pp, and they deserve the pp because they have the ability to do so.

For those who got discouraged due to the pp inflation, it will take some time to accept it, but IMHO, many players will eventually settle with a few "everyone's DT maps" like the standard players did (I'm not degrading them; they - and I - have their own playing styles and enjoy the game even though many of them cannot do the DT farms) and the ranking will stabilize at the point.

On the mapping side, I'm a newbie in the area but I see the point of Kyoka (and other mappers, not here).
Definitely, mapping in favor of DT is a bad thing (some of it is already done in std). However, just like lots of std mappers just don't bother with pp mapping (including DT-favor mapping), many mania mappers will just map as they did till now. And again, super players will pass non-DT-mapped maps with DT anyway, so DT mapping would not be something to consider as a mapper.
But yes, some modders will still want easier DT maps. Rejecting them is up to the mappers, and I hope they do so.

a.) PP system is not a bit broken, it's horribly broken. This is due in part that the SR system is horribly broken. SR can be horribly very easily manipulated to produce grossly inaccurate values and PP is directly affected by it.

b.) Your "very first reason" to measure a player's ability is flawed in the fact that it cannot accurately measure player ability on a per-player basis, and osu! has clearly indicated that it assumes keymodes to be separate in play (otherwise, there would not be two MWCs in the first place).

c.) It's discouraging because it's encouraging people to mindlessly smash their keyboards on high-SR/low-diff proportioned maps (your traditional PP maps) and is giving them a false reward for doing well on things that are "hard." Maps that are incomprehensibly difficult yet don't yield high-SRs are going to be avoided and that alone showcases the flaw of the star rating system: people can play one map at the star rating and get an extremely good score, and then play another map at the same rating and get a terrible score. What do you think people are going to go and do right now? They're going to play all of the maps that traditionally yield high star-ratings based off of tiny spikes if they can't handle the majority of maps that proportionally increase in difficulty, and those who are extremely skilled are going to go for the maps that have the easiest patterns to spam/cheat because they can maintain accuracy/combo in the first place.

d.) When you go for rank, you're going for showcasing your work to the community. If the community gets the impression that this increase in PP because of the DT mod is alright, they're going to naturally get pissed off when they can't benefit from it. People bitch about things like mini-jacks into well-accented triples/quads already when they're completely fair, because it's "not comfortable".

EDIT: personal note - you can kiss all of the improvements in mapping meta over the past 1.5 years that have helped to diversify the game goodbye, all anyone wants now is to get their fix so they can watch that arbitrary number climb. Nothing else matters right now.

this was coming regardless of how much you want to push it away. evening was right; new players will rise to the top and the older ones will either need to adapt or just accept pp favours specific skillsets. Being able to get great accuracy on easy charts is one thing, but being able to demolish those same charts on 1.5x speed is another