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osu!Democracy

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Topic Starter
Winek
Before I start shitstorming, let me say that osu!Democracy is a new idea of beatmap ranking system. (Not the ranking criteria, I'm talking about the BNs and stuff). Our current system is pure shit, I'm gonna be blunt and I'm not even gonna restrain myself from swearing. Don't forget to read the actual thing before saying my idea is shit. (ok maybe just a bit dunt ban me pls).

Part I - Why is the current system shit?
Part II - What exactly is the general idea of osu!Democracy?
Part III - Handling BNs in osu!Democracy: point system or not?
Part IV - Voting a map, and a new kudosu system.
Part V - BN checking the map
Part VI - Ranking/Denying/Suspending
Part VII - Short resume


Part I - Why is the current system shit?



First up, let me give a resume of an average BN in our time.
Name censored. Hope you can identify yourself. And be ashamed while you're at it.



Let me just answer, honey.
FRIEND'S BEATMAP NOMINATOR
You have to rank maps, not exclude all maps except your friend's.
And yes, we're not forcing you

You can quit BNs anytime you want

But while you're in it

Do the job correctly.

BN are supposed to help mappers; not be fricken savage to them and ignore all their request.
I mean, it's okay to map your friend's map but this?

"we're not obligated"

Sincerly, quit BN. I'm probably more lazy than you, but I'm not a cunt that abuse power.

And obviously because of those stupid rules, I can't talk about my friend who got anxiety problem.

Now let's talk about the score! THE DAMN SCORE

PRO: Less of an hassle for people to check if BN are active.
CON: QUANTITY >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> QUALITY.

It is true that it's a pain in the ass to check out for every BN to see if they're still active and etc

But sincerely letting the game's quality degrade for this, no thanks

I know people that would gladly do this job, including me.

Part II - What exactly is the general idea of osu!Democracy?


BN are the only one that can judge. And that power sometime get over their head to greediness.
I want to change that-- now the community will vote for their map.

I mean, how are BN better than most average? I mean sure, they gotta have some
experience, but at this point, all they need to do is mod 3 months some map, become BN
and insert themselves in the circlejerk of BN friends.

Mappers will map their maps like the usual. Then once they're done, they can
ask for mods or votes from whoever they want.

What's a vote? It's like... someone's approval on a map.

Once a mapper get the number of vote they desire, they may put their map on the Voted Board. (i need a new name orz)

On the voting board, BNs will select the map. If it had a lot of votes, they are more enticed to select it, because a lot of people want it.

The BN will look at the map, not mod it. At least, they can mod it if they want.

Then three thing may happen: Qualification, Suspending or Denying.

Qualification: Self-defined
Suspending: The map is near ranking, but it may be a small issue that breaks the ranking criteria.
Denying: The map has been denied from rank. The mapper will receive the reason for Denying with a small note, wrote from the BN who denied.

For a ranked map, the players that will play will be able to see if there are unrankable things in the map, in case the BN did not notice. (Which should never happen.)

Part III - Handling BNs in osu!Democracy: point system or not?



Our current system involves points-- like I said, it can easily value quantity over quality.
So first resolution: Get rid of score system

This way, the QAT will no more look at the BN's score-- they will look at:
- Their activity. Inactive BN will be kicked, and have a small BN suspension of being a BN again.
- Their Rank/Denying rate. If a BN looks suspicious (denying/ranking too much map without looking at them and not leaving a real comment), the QAT will inspect them and see if these Denying are justified. If they're not, the BN will be kicked and awarded a large suspension of being a BN again.
- The map they rank. If they are suspected of being in a circlejerk (only checking friend's map), I say they should be permanently banned from being a BN.

Since BN does not need to mod the map they check, if they do so, they will gain extra credibility (For as long as it stays a quality mod), meaning the QATs can be more tolerant facing them from being inactive for a certain period.
If any BN ask to leave the group because of which ever reason, as long as they had a good reputation, they may re-join anytime. Useful for people going inactive.

Second resolution: Fuck the mod score to join the BN.

Anyone that is motivated and have a good modding quality should be eligible to join the BN.
They should not be stupid cunts as well-- selfish brats abstain.
Being a BN is about helping the mappers.
A BN should be able to answer a mapper/modder's question and answer them with their opinion and tips to map/mod better.
A BN should not base the criteria themselves 100% on their opinion, and remember that everyone got theirs-- they should never impose anything.
If a map is suspended and followed by a mod, fixed all or not, as long as it's rankable and has a good vote score, it should be ranked.
Of course, it's acceptable to suspend a map and ask for more vote score before ranking(to get more foreign opinions).
Our current system is orbiting around BN-- they choose and judge all of our map.
Whether community wants a map rankedor not, BN are the only one that can choose.
And PP farm maps should be denied tbh

And now, for the final touch.

Mod for rank should never be allowed.
Any BN who asks a mod in exchange to rank the modder's map should be suspended.
This is a really shady and down trick. Being a BN is pure benevolence, and not a job.
Although, a BN may take priority looking on a map from a modder.
But if they limit themselves to uniquely mod for ranks, then it's unacceptable.
It goes the same with votes 4 votes.
Voting is exclusively for people who wants a certain map ranked-- not to get yours ranked by trading votes.
While I can't find a working system against that, you guys get the point.
If you have a suggestion for it, leave it there!

Part IV - Voting a map, and a new kudosu system.



First, a small example here:

Example
Mapper: Will you mod my map?
Modder: Sure!
(One mod later.)

Option one
Modder: Your map is really great! I'll put a vote as well.
Mapper: Thank you!
Modder: Consider putting it in the voted board soon!
Mapper: I'll get a few more votes and get to it!

Option two
Modder: Your map has a lot of flaws, you know. There are unrankable issues!
Mapper: I'll fix them! Can you vote my map?
Modder: No, because you have to improve it first. I don't really want to play a map like this!
Mapper: /me cri

What are votes? Votes are like amapper/modder's approval on a map-- they would like/would see no problem seeing this map ranked.

Everyone can vote a map a day-- that should be the limit.
Kudosu are the only thing that could break that limit. For as how much kudosu you have, you may vote all the map you want.
Be aware that a map may be voted to a map to two times-- one from a daily vote, and another from the kudosu.
Limiting everyone to two votes will make it so that people can't vote like hellfuck on their favorite mapper.
I mean, having a lot of kudosu doesn't mean the map is good. We need lots of foreign opinion for a map to be deemed good/ready for rank.

This is the first step. People have to vote someone's map. There should be a fixated amount of votes required before it is sent in the Voted Board: for example, 20 or something. (10 opinion from mappers/modders with kudosu is pretty much big, amirite?)
Voting will allow the community to talk, not just the BN.

Part V - BN checking the map



After a map has received enough votes, a mapper may decide anytime when they think their map is ready to send it to the Voted Board. (i really need a better name orz)

The Voted Board is a place where all the mapper put their map and ask for a BN's judgement-- By judgement, I mean, is it rankable? Is it highly voted? Is it a troll beatmap? Is it a pp farm beatmap?

The BN will select any map they want from the list-- highly voted or not does not matter. A BN needs to be active, not to rank a lot of map.
They will overlook the map-- tesplay, open in editor, whatever. If they think the map is good, then it will be qualified.

Upon a map's qualification, the BN earn activity, but nothing extra. A BN that rank a lot of map is equal to a BN that disqualify/suspend a lot of map-- why? Because if there's a lot of low-voted map on the board and that a certain BN take care of it, it cleans up the Voted Board! What's wrong with that? (yeah that sounded harsh and mean sry xd)

Of course, you can't just take them all and deny them all-- you need to give your reason for denying. Not just "Unrankable, Notes all over the place, I don't like it, Shit flow". They can do a short mod as a response to denying, as when a BN deny/suspend a map, they are in the obligation to write about why they do so.

Any BN who lies in their reason for denying a map should be permanently banned from being a BN.

Let's jot down one more point.

One, mappers are limited to ONE map sent to the voted board a month-- that's 12 map a year if the mapper is pro enough. The limit will make it so there won't be some 48295729104 map request in the Voted Board, making it pretty much impossible to play.

Part VI - Ranking/Denying/Suspending


This is a short part to explain what are those three words.

Ranking
Simply, qualifying a map. The BN has accepted it because the community voted for it-- they wanted the map to be ranked. If anyone plays the map and see something unrankable, they must immediately tell it! The map will be returned to the Voted Board, and put to suspended state. The mapper can fix the issue and any BN can re-rank it again. But the BN that ranked the map faultily might get punished if it was something extremely obvious. We're not asking to mod, but checking AiMod isn't hard at all.

Suspending
If a map has a small unrankable issue, such as a note out of the grid, AiMod going crazy, a bit too much kiai or something, storyboard problems, but they're minor, the map is put back to Voted Board and put in-Suspended- state for three days. Once this three day delay is over, the map will be eligible to be judged again. If the map wasn't fixed, it can be put back to suspending-- but beware, a BN could deny it simply if they have to suspend too much. In general, after suspending a map, a BN should mod the map, or at least point out the problem by posting on the beatmap's thread. A map may also be suspended due to the lack of votes.

Denying
While this reports mainly to the worse case, such as notes all over the place, PP farm map, too much unrankable issues, etc. The map will completely be removed from the Voted board, and the mapper will have to wait the cooldown before reposting the map on the Voted Board. A BN must always provide valid reason for deny. Like I said earlier, they have to jot down a few points, such as unrankable issues to fix, and stuff like that.

Part VII - Short resume



osu!Democracy will give a better link with the community, and less power to abuse from BN. It will also motivate a bit more that they don't need to mod as well-- it makes everything better, because they will be able to rank/deny faster, and mappers can expect their map to be judged a lot faster as well! We all know some maps that deserve to be ranked but sadly can't because of our actual system. With this new system, gather votes from mappers, friends, modders, and send them to the Voted board. With at least a good bunch of people voting, you can get your map easily ranked, because the BN won't be able to ignore a highly-voted map.

Do you have suggestions for this idea? Do you want me to make something clear for you? Have anything you're up against? Comment it! I'd be glad to answer.
Beware I won't answer stupid comments like "it's a bad idea" if it's not clearly supported with arguments. If you have argument, I'll fight them back. If you have no argument, I'll fight you with pictures of anime men kissing. Also remember this post is long, didn't check if every single thing made sense, if you think something is a bit crazy, tell me, I'll change it, coz yeah, as you can see, that's a beautiful wall. insert obligatory donald trump joke here
Stefan
Without to strike up with your post I can confidently say this has been suggested a lot of times in the Feature request forum, with a similar to same concept you wrote and many users agreed this very likely won't help and work well.
Sieg

Ephemeral wrote:

Changes are coming to the ranking system which will see a greater variety of maps equipped with scoreboards. Vague, but exciting. There’s not a lot more that we can say about this right now, but we’ve got something fairly big planned, and we think it will fix a lot of long-standing issues with and complaints about the ranking system as it currently stands.
Just wait a bit.
Monstrata
That's not an accurate representation of an average BN...

Also, the star priority system is very similar to the voting system you mentioned. People can star a map to have it be a higher priority on the list. The current SP system isn't practical though, and I don't see many BN's considering SP when deciding what to mod, so I don't see a voting system working either. I don't think people are more obligated to check a map just because it has more favourites.
Natsu
isn't like a fraudulent system as well, i mean i can go and ask all my friends to vote my map, If you ask me the BAT system when we actually have rules was better, but what you propose just will lower the quality of maps and in the end it will be the same.

Also your screen is really from a BN or a fake one o.O? I don't think any BN will behave like that, so I'm inclined to think it was a friend of yours being honestly.
Raiden

Natsu wrote:

isn't like a fraudulent system as well, i mean i can go and ask all my friends to vote my map, If you ask me the BAT system when we actually have rules was better, but what you propose just will lower the quality of maps and in the end it will be the same.

Also your screen is really from a BN or a fake one o.O? I don't think any BN will behave like that, so I'm inclined to think it was a friend of yours being honestly.
you can find it is from a real BN, just search through last pages of osugame xD
Natsu
wow.. well that's sad, still I don't think you should think we all are the same as him, I have 2 years helping random people with their maps and I really dont like when people generalize us in this way.

Anyways really disappointing of him, even he is a new BN.
Asaiga
is it me or I feel like the op is trying to work the BNs to death? with salt.
I mean, if you ctrl+f and type ''BN'' in =w=
Spayyce

Asaiga wrote:

is it me or I feel like the op is trying to work the BNs to death? with salt.
I mean, if you ctrl+f and type ''BN'' in =w=
Well I believe his issue is that he feels no BN's respond actively to mods and either masquerade themselves as full of requests with false intentions (aka they dont want to mod) or they join BN to circlejerk or they just join as some kind of status symbol.
Stjpa

-Space- wrote:

Asaiga wrote:

is it me or I feel like the op is trying to work the BNs to death? with salt.
I mean, if you ctrl+f and type ''BN'' in =w=
Well I believe his issue is that he feels no BN's respond actively to mods and either masquerade themselves as full of requests with false intentions (aka they dont want to mod) or they join BN to circlejerk or they just join as some kind of status symbol.
We usually get between 2-5 requests a day, and doing 2 mods a day is already tough for the average person that goes to school / work etc. So it's ok that some are quite busy. Also, there aren't even three BNs who are circlejerkers at all, since the new BN batch everything got way better, but seems like it's still not good enough.
I Must Decrease
I'm not ashamed because that's not how I operate. You seem to be taking a statement at face value rather than realizing I was speaking in general that it is a fact that the system allows that to happen should the BN wish. In addition, by no means does the average BN behave in the way I hypothetically described. Do yourself a favor and stop believing blatantly out of context screencaps of a conversation you were not a part of.

I'll read the rest of this later.
Monstrata
Can we not complain about a "lack of BN activity" when there are over 42 maps in qualified? 42 maps is the ideal number. Ideally, maps will take 7 days to go from qualified to ranked, and the current system allows 6 maps to be ranked per day. We are currently over that threshold, which means the BN group as a whole is pushing forward more maps than the system expects. As a result, maps are taking up to 12 days to go from qualified to ranked.

With an expanding community, perhaps it's time to expand the limit to maybe 7 maps a day being qualified. But do note that BN's as a group are currently working at a rate that exceeds the qualification system's expectations.
Ephemeral
You'll be pleased to note that a lot of the concepts (note: concepts) briefly mentioned in the OP are also being applied to the forthcoming system mentioned in the last dev-meeting notes in some fashion or another. Specifically, the notion of the community having a direct vehicle towards giving a map a scoreboard-like status.

However, I'd like to point out that the BN group functions purely on volunteer work, and are not expected (and especially not obligated) to check every request they receive. While it is troubling that the system has traditionally inclined itself to certain mappers or mapping groups receiving more coverage over the years due to their palatability (or sheer ease of use), this sort of effect would manifest itself in any community oriented system as well. To put it bluntly, if you have a reputation for producing work that requires minimal amounts of effort to fix or get into a rankable state, you're far more likely to get the interest of someone who has to spend hours of their lives assessing it.

To my knowledge (granted, this may be incorrect as I am not hugely familiar with the internal systems behind it all), the score system for BNs is essentially an aggregate total of basically the same three metrics you mentioned - mainly activity, and their ranking vs/ unranking rate.

The issue with m4m or m4r type behavior is that fundamentally, the BN is taking a significant amount of time out of their day to do something for someone else. It is not at all unreasonable for them to want a similar level of effort invested into their own personal projects by a person receiving their services as well. Obviously, we don't encourage this sort of thing, but it is again, a natural consequence of a primarily volunteer operated group existing.

In any case, the future system (which optimistically, will be introduced before the end of the month - details to come) will address pretty much all of the points here, and I fully expect that a vast majority of people will be happy with it. I hate to be so vague about things, but we're still fleshing some stuff out internally, and I'd rather not get into particulars which may be subject to change.
Vira Lillie
need
dZark
Nice idea!
Arusamour
l m a o

DIE



wow man i love the idea hahaaaahhahahahahahah
Topic Starter
Winek
ffffs can you guys not post 15 stuff while im at school

Well anyway, I'm very satisfied from Ephemerald's answer.

Asaiga wrote:

is it me or I feel like the op is trying to work the BNs to death? with salt.
I mean, if you ctrl+f and type ''BN'' in =w=
No. The system I placed is extremely easy-- checking a map ready for ranking/denying would take not even 5-10 minutes a day.

Natsu wrote:

wow.. well that's sad, still I don't think you should think we all are the same as him, I have 2 years helping random people with their maps and I really dont like when people generalize us in this way.

Anyways really disappointing of him, even he is a new BN.
Not all BN are like this. Sorry for generalizing tho. I'm kinda sick of the current system, so yeah. And seeing that really made me puke it all out. Again, sorry for the heavy generalization. Also, it won't lower the quality of the maps at all-- (good) friends should know when your map is ready to be ranked, and of course, there's a BN on the tail that will judge if it would need some more effort on it.

Monstrata wrote:

That's not an accurate representation of an average BN...

Also, the star priority system is very similar to the voting system you mentioned. People can star a map to have it be a higher priority on the list. The current SP system isn't practical though, and I don't see many BN's considering SP when deciding what to mod, so I don't see a voting system working either. I don't think people are more obligated to check a map just because it has more favourites.
Our current system is like "You need 12 SP to have a mod" and that's it. It barely even matter at this point-- I've seen +130 SP map that took a large time to get ranked, and other +12 maps that got ranked easily.

Stefan wrote:

Without to strike up with your post I can confidently say this has been suggested a lot of times in the Feature request forum, with a similar to same concept you wrote and many users agreed this very likely won't help and work well.
How?

And for the final sauce...

Xexxar wrote:

I'm not ashamed because that's not how I operate. You seem to be taking a statement at face value rather than realizing I was speaking in general that it is a fact that the system allows that to happen should the BN wish. In addition, by no means does the average BN behave in the way I hypothetically described. Do yourself a favor and stop believing blatantly out of context screencaps of a conversation you were not a part of.

I'll read the rest of this later.
Kekekek.
I've read the whole discussion, btw. Your way of operating as a BN is forcing your opinion on someone and asking for them to change/justify everything that you think is wrong in the map-- if they don't, no bubble. Ever thought of something called mapping style? That's a thing that makes your map unique. Didn't you say you bubbled zero map? Smh. Even if they don't behave all like you, (again sorry for generalizing), I still think too much power is lent to BN and none to the community. And seriously, for a BN to "Like only friend's map" that's a terrible excuse for being in a circlejerk. And yes, it's a fact you can do what you want while BN, but I think it's a fact you're acting like a real jerk like this, and that's right what I want to say. You're awful. The end.


As a final touch


Ephemeral's answer very satisfied me. I'll look forward to a system with better BN and hopefully never meet such awful problems like that again. Even if it's "vague", it satisfies me a lot to know that Ephemeral thinks this idea is ok. For now, discussion here can be closed if you guys want, but I'm always ready to debate against anyone for xxx reason smh.
Stjpa

Winek wrote:

No. The system I placed is extremely easy-- checking a map ready for ranking/denying would take not even 5-10 minutes a day.
Please what? I hope you are kidding. Like that the quality of the ranked sections would get thousand times WORSE, did you ever think about it? That's less drain time than a set has with all diffs together lol. Also, normal modding and not just checking for unrankable things is highly recommended because there can be any other flaws that can take down the quality of a map drastically.

Winek wrote:

Our current system is like "You need 12 SP to have a mod" and that's it. It barely even matter at this point-- I've seen +130 SP map that took a large time to get ranked, and other +12 maps that got ranked easily.
Because most maps with high SP are either extremely bad or have a lot of stars thrown on it.


Anyway, let's see how the system will be "improved" (using " because it's in the sky if it's really better), looking forward to it.
chainpullz
I think xexxar is doing a fine job as a BN atm. Sometimes life gets busy and BN-quality mods take more time than you might think. Having been in a similar position myself for other sites in the past it is your job to only approve content that lives up to your own quality standards.

The reality is that any formal criteria will either be restrictive/unrestrictive to a fault. You cannot account for every odd case with a set of rules and yesterday's masterpiece is today's garbage.

The BN system exists to cohabitate with the ranking criteria to make up for these two failings otherwise we'd just code up a better aimod and call it a day.

If Xexxar does not support certain mapping styles because he does not believe them to live up to his standards then that mapper will simply have to catch the attention of a BN that sees things differently.

As Monstrata pointed out there are already more maps than what the system can support being qualified. This naturally means one of two things: quality standards need to be further raised such that the ~42 highest quality maps are qualified at any one point or the system needs to be changed to accommodate the inflow of maps adhering to the current quality standards.

Tbh though there's actually nothing wrong with maps simply not getting ranked. If they are good maps people will still find them, play them, and enjoy them. Not everyone is obsessed with having Internet epeen rankings associated with everything they do.
peppy
We already have a system planned to replace nominators. Yes it will take time because no one is working on it right now. Get on the dev discord and help out if you have development skills. Words (posts like this) unfortunately do not help.
Topic Starter
Winek

Stjpa wrote:

Please what? I hope you are kidding. Like that the quality of the ranked sections would get thousand times WORSE, did you ever think about it? That's less drain time than a set has with all diffs together lol. Also, normal modding and not just checking for unrankable things is highly recommended because there can be any other flaws that can take down the quality of a map drastically.
I ain't kidding-- BN are too powerful nowaday. I don't see how it will decrease at all-- good maps are voted up and BN check them then rank them. How is that complicated? How will that reduce the quality? Also, when I say checking a map if it's ready, it doesn't mean ignore everything and looks at AiMod, the BN will do an overall judgement, and can suspend the map if they think it could be improved.

Stjpa wrote:

Because most maps with high SP are either extremely bad or have a lot of stars thrown on it.
Anyway, let's see how the system will be "improved" (using " because it's in the sky if it's really better), looking forward to it.
So because of a generalization, we should ignore them? Thanks for answering my question! You heard, BN! Ignore map with high SP!

chainpullz wrote:

Tbh though there's actually nothing wrong with maps simply not getting ranked. If they are good maps people will still find them, play them, and enjoy them. Not everyone is obsessed with having Internet epeen rankings associated with everything they do.
That's actually a marvelous idea, why aren't we just ranking no maps? That would be perfect, amirite? Like, zero maps.

Either way, as peppy himself said, it doesn't matter how much you cry at me, I stll think this system is pure shit and let the BN abuse too much of their power. I know post like this won't help, but I wanted to let people know my opinion as well on most of what I see in BN. If I had some dev skills, I'd try to help... q.q

Anyway. You guys can lock this thread and send it to junkyard, that way, less salty BN will come crap after me.
yes, I know I'm rude I'm pissed off atm because irl stuff
Winnie
I remember when Kocari spent his last 3 years learning and guiding new mappers. Now it's time for me to take over and fuck over everyone 8-)
I Must Decrease

Winek wrote:

Xexxar wrote:

I'm not ashamed because that's not how I operate. You seem to be taking a statement at face value rather than realizing I was speaking in general that it is a fact that the system allows that to happen should the BN wish. In addition, by no means does the average BN behave in the way I hypothetically described. Do yourself a favor and stop believing blatantly out of context screencaps of a conversation you were not a part of.
I'll read the rest of this later.

Kekekek.
I've read the whole discussion, btw. Your way of operating as a BN is forcing your opinion on someone and asking for them to change/justify everything that you think is wrong in the map-- if they don't, no bubble. Ever thought of something called mapping style? That's a thing that makes your map unique. Didn't you say you bubbled zero map? Smh. Even if they don't behave all like you, (again sorry for generalizing), I still think too much power is lent to BN and none to the community. And seriously, for a BN to "Like only friend's map" that's a terrible excuse for being in a circlejerk. And yes, it's a fact you can do what you want while BN, but I think it's a fact you're acting like a real jerk like this, and that's right what I want to say. You're awful. The end.


I ask for people to defend their placement and decisions. A map should have logic and reasoning behind a design because that's what makes them proper. Obviously if you're going to do something I don't think is correct I want to know why you're doing it. If you tell me that it's fine and there are no problems, I am not going to rank your set. My goal as a beatmap nominator is to help improve the quality of your map and promote it for rank. If you believe your map is without faults and you cannot even formulate a reason for your design you're likely wrong.
Stefan
Pretty much everything important has been said. If you feel dedicated to help, follow peppy's post. Locking this.
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