isn't that the same thing as what's uploaded on BSS with the hitsounds replaced? I think you're mistaken because your diff is in the same folder and those hitsounds got replaced for both
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Just because someone modded your map doesn't mean their points are valid!!11!1
*screams*
Skipping the wall of text and getting straight to the point, just because something is rankable, fun, and is somewhat playable doesn't mean it's a good idea to rank it. It takes a maturity level I honestly don't expect from you in order to own up to this. Have fun with your memes I guess.
Edit: For clarification by shouldn't be ranked I mean monstrata himself choosing not to rank his own map.
i mean you can play a calm part with ar10 and it'd be ok as for player, but hard part with ar9.7 is a pain in the ass.
and .3 difference makes a lots of effect
This is so subjective that it should be decided by everyone.
There's too much maps that are not played because the choosen AR is too low.
I'd say that the low AR is one of the main reason why people start playing DT or HR or don't play old maps...
You can actually turn a good map to a shitmap (and reciprocally) just by putting the wrong AR.
But the AR is never good for everyone. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Sadly, as he mentioned in the podcast, people are doing this less and less, and focusing on only the good looking and playable things that we call "meta".
on a separate note, this song has evolved into a bit of guilty pleasure for me and I hate myself for it.
I mean, I remember how much crap asphyxias kyoumei map got for using the chorus again or something at the end. He ended up DQing because of the huge amount of crap he got. However we still see this way of circumventing the 5min mark ranked quite a few times since that. I guess these things will be updated in the soon to be reworked RC, but we still need some clarification on this because rules seem to bend depending on the map when it comes to this.
Very helpful advice here my friend
Edit:
04:45:311 (1,1) - maybe make the spinner 1/8 away from the slider instead of 1/4? there's kinda a weird pause between the two as it is
btw:
imo those sliders match the music perfectly, it is well mapped, and fun to play. whats wrong
show more
Topic Starter
deetz wrote:
that's the same thing as what's uploaded on BSS with the hitsounds replaced! I think you're mistaken because your diff is in the same folder and those hitsounds got replaced for both
Stuff like this is REALLY bugging me. Monstrata said he's gonna take a look at 2 of the posts in-depth because they can be issues. For every other post, he declined every point with concrete reasoning.Noah Alcubierre wrote:
I'd have personally preferred that current mods are not simply entirely rejected in sake of defending the qualification status of the map but instead noted and considered as a real suggestion in case this map gets dq'd so the map COULD be better in a way that the community won't spam a load of "fuck you"s at the map.
Just because someone modded your map doesn't mean their points are valid!!11!1
*screams*
Honestly this is the biggest reason this map shouldn't be ranked. Even if you can provide a compelling argument otherwise, it still remains the case that this style is indistinguishable from that of a beginning mapper for the vast majority of players.Natsu wrote:
I'm wonder if this map get ranked how you'll ask to other mappers to map with quality? I'll feel bad when I ask for improvements and they link me this map as example.Monstrata wrote:
Maybe people downvoted cuz they didn't like me? or that they thought the song was too hard? You can't determine the intention for someone's 1 vote xD. Loctav currently has the most downvoted map on osu. Does that make him or the map bad? No. Some taiko BN's tell me t's actually good... but you can clearly see people DTNF'ing it with like 50 points just to downvote to spite him.
Skipping the wall of text and getting straight to the point, just because something is rankable, fun, and is somewhat playable doesn't mean it's a good idea to rank it. It takes a maturity level I honestly don't expect from you in order to own up to this. Have fun with your memes I guess.
Edit: For clarification by shouldn't be ranked I mean monstrata himself choosing not to rank his own map.
I'm just thinking that you can start mapping Tag4 and refer to this for the "the jumps are rankable" argument... Besides imo a song that's clearly below 5 minutes should not be boosted to longer duration just so you don't need to provide a full spread of difficulties.chainpullz wrote:
Honestly this is the biggest reason this map shouldn't be ranked. Even if you can provide a compelling argument otherwise, it still remains the case that this style is indistinguishable from that of a beginning mapper for the vast majority of players.Natsu wrote:
I'm wonder if this map get ranked how you'll ask to other mappers to map with quality? I'll feel bad when I ask for improvements and they link me this map as example.
Skipping the wall of text and getting straight to the point, just because something is rankable, fun, and is somewhat playable doesn't mean it's a good idea to rank it. It takes a maturity level I honestly don't expect from you in order to own up to this. Have fun with your memes I guess.
I've played this on ht and hthr, and IMO the jumps don't feel like "tag4" jumps at all. they're fast, sure, but that's simply because of the sheer speed of the song. I think the map is overall pretty enjoyable even if it's incredibly hard
not sure if the community is ready for this type of difficulty. i mean, only a few people (perhaps) can play it
imo the map aethestically looks like someone experimented way too much and it ended up looking... kinda bad. but it looks like you tried giving the map personality or something
imo the map aethestically looks like someone experimented way too much and it ended up looking... kinda bad. but it looks like you tried giving the map personality or something
well, i'm ok with this map and its ugliness because i understand it somehow lol
but only one thing i want to argue about is an Approach Rate or AR. yeah, i've read your dialogue with broccoly about AR choice (which can be found here btw p/5253277) but you guys seemed to discuss about AR generally, not in the map's context. your map contains many overlaps and crossings and over type of stuff which is may be hard to read. for example, this pattern 02:46:793 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - . it looks like a FUCKING MESS with ar9.7. i tried it with both ARs and yeah, AR10 was the best. same thing applies to 02:55:471 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1) - and maybe a few other patterns.
you also said
and sorry for a few «strong» words, just couldn't find the other proper and emotional words
but only one thing i want to argue about is an Approach Rate or AR. yeah, i've read your dialogue with broccoly about AR choice (which can be found here btw p/5253277) but you guys seemed to discuss about AR generally, not in the map's context. your map contains many overlaps and crossings and over type of stuff which is may be hard to read. for example, this pattern 02:46:793 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - . it looks like a FUCKING MESS with ar9.7. i tried it with both ARs and yeah, AR10 was the best. same thing applies to 02:55:471 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1) - and maybe a few other patterns.
you also said
man, what fun you were talking about when a few patterns are so damn hard to read? and «i can't read it» argument is invalid as fuck because it's not about what you can read or not read, it's about what other players can read. btw there is no fun when there are some clearly unreadable moments in the map.Monstrata wrote:
like, i would play this map for fun, but the AR 10 would turn me off cuz i can't read it and neither can a lot of people
and sorry for a few «strong» words, just couldn't find the other proper and emotional words
Only a really small portion of the community can actually pass this, I can't really see how some players can enjoy these types of maps without even beeing able to play them properly, but that's not my main focus.
Putting no fail on and playing this just feels sloppy and most patterns / sliders feel off in terms of flow, I don't care if it's intended or not, I can't understand why someone would do a bad job on purpose?! Sorry to say it but estellia's joke remap felt a lot better to play simply because patterns made sense and it flowed a lot better, plus the normal sliders. I'm not saying this for the star difficulty of the map, I gave value to maps like Apparition and Time Freeze because they have perfectly sensical patterns, even though I can't pass them either, but this doesn't feel the same.
I love some of your maps Monstrata, and I rated some of them a 10 like Akaito and Hikouki Gumo or the EOS remix but based on my opinion I'd rate this map a clear 1 just like I did with the Delta triangles map, because they feel like a joke and nothing else. Just my 2 cents.
Putting no fail on and playing this just feels sloppy and most patterns / sliders feel off in terms of flow, I don't care if it's intended or not, I can't understand why someone would do a bad job on purpose?! Sorry to say it but estellia's joke remap felt a lot better to play simply because patterns made sense and it flowed a lot better, plus the normal sliders. I'm not saying this for the star difficulty of the map, I gave value to maps like Apparition and Time Freeze because they have perfectly sensical patterns, even though I can't pass them either, but this doesn't feel the same.
I love some of your maps Monstrata, and I rated some of them a 10 like Akaito and Hikouki Gumo or the EOS remix but based on my opinion I'd rate this map a clear 1 just like I did with the Delta triangles map, because they feel like a joke and nothing else. Just my 2 cents.
Let's summarize it:
- Editing the Mp3 file to reach the five minute mark is rankable and never have been a problem before. If you disagree with this, please participate here to discuss out this and refrain to post here about the lenght, this thread is to improve the beatmap and not argue about a potential unrankable point - which is a general thing and not related to the beatmap itself.
- Spinners aren't added into the Drain time on the website so you need to check the beatmap at in-game - which shows exactly 5:00.
- Original Song is 4:46 long but mapper extended it at the begin,
Reference to the extend: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdwT5JlH8gM - Shitting on the mapper and his work won't bring you anywhere, don't try it and post if you have something important to say.
00:27:409 (1) - http://puu.sh/pPXOn/56248ba69f.jpg this slider looks like it plays terrible, and the slider ticks don't make up for what you removed from the song by having this slider here.
But it's mainly the second half of the slider that feels over extended, http://puu.sh/pPXRP/f890f0e857.jpg
You could make the slide a repeating slider and keep it "ugly"
I also feel like if you want to ignore them a little bit but making such a slider, could use a technique for staccato and make a gap in between the music
http://puu.sh/pPY2K/7c3d9f3108.jpg
Same as above applies to this slider 01:33:991 (1) -
I also think the sliders should be a bit more consistent to the music, it really does looks random, but the music is the same, its not like the slider should change shape every single time.. the music does repeat its self, actually so does the lyrics.. quite a bit actually, i think that itself calls for consistency (yeah the sliders being ugly is consistent) but it could be more consistent..
you could map 01:06:090 (1) - all the spinners similar to this, think it would be much more interesting to map the break down rather than provide a spinning feel when playing it.
I have to work now.. but i can look more in depth when i get home and try to help.. hope could help at all ;w;
(if you have already replied to any of this i am also sorry because i havn't been able to 100% keep up with the thread)
have a nice day/evening
But it's mainly the second half of the slider that feels over extended, http://puu.sh/pPXRP/f890f0e857.jpg
You could make the slide a repeating slider and keep it "ugly"
I also feel like if you want to ignore them a little bit but making such a slider, could use a technique for staccato and make a gap in between the music
http://puu.sh/pPY2K/7c3d9f3108.jpg
Same as above applies to this slider 01:33:991 (1) -
I also think the sliders should be a bit more consistent to the music, it really does looks random, but the music is the same, its not like the slider should change shape every single time.. the music does repeat its self, actually so does the lyrics.. quite a bit actually, i think that itself calls for consistency (yeah the sliders being ugly is consistent) but it could be more consistent..
you could map 01:06:090 (1) - all the spinners similar to this, think it would be much more interesting to map the break down rather than provide a spinning feel when playing it.
I have to work now.. but i can look more in depth when i get home and try to help.. hope could help at all ;w;
(if you have already replied to any of this i am also sorry because i havn't been able to 100% keep up with the thread)
have a nice day/evening
Okay
First, increase the OD to 9.6
It's currently OD 9.4, which allows Notelocking to happen for maps over BPM of 282,50 (refer to t/334458)
Some parts are 286 BPM. If you set OD to 9.5, BPM of 285 is fine, but 286 is barely out
9.6 would make much more sense (and playability, 9.6 isn't that much harder than 9.4)
[Diff]
00:17:766 (1,2,3,4) - You are aiming at ugly, so why is this perfectly symmetrical...
00:26:553 (1,2,3,4) - Why not make all of these sliders slightly increase in SV? The music gets much more intense, and deservse those changes
00:27:409 (1) - Keeping your mindset, this slider is way too pretty. A blanket? Oh hell no (talking about the end with the red node above it), try something as ugly as this (also gives better flow to the next slider, so yey)
00:32:760 (3,1) - This jump is absolutely nuts. (3) has a reverse at the red tick, so the earliest you can let go of this is after that point. This gives less than 1/2 (at 280 BPM) to hit the slider which moves at high speed, back to (3)
00:34:903 - I swear I can hear some sounds here...
00:39:852 (6) - Please, no offbeat sliders (applies to the next slider as well)
00:40:172 (1) - Fits the music much better if it's a 1/1 slider, due to it being offbeat (from red tick to red tick)
00:43:047 (4) - NC, for the DDEDEDEDE
00:44:770 (5) - 00:46:484 (3) - 00:48:192 (3) - ^^
00:48:192 (3) - Why on earth is this 1/4 while the other similar sounds are 1/2?
00:53:425 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,4) - This looks... not ugly...
00:58:150 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - Wait... I thought only Fort would ever do something as this
01:01:580 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - Are you sure you are not Fort?
01:33:991 (1,2) - Seriously...
01:35:915 (4) - NC, refer to above
01:37:630 (5) - ^^
01:39:344 (5) - ^^
01:36:505 (2,6,2) - Is it just me, or are these the only triplets in the whole map? Don't you think 1/4 sldiers (with reverses please
) would work better?
01:41:847 (2) - Please have an NC, to distinguish between "oriental" and "deathmetal"
01:43:163 (2) - 01:44:275 (2) - 01:45:997 (2) - 01:46:857 (2) - 01:47:522 (2) - 01:50:303 (2) - 01:51:166 (2) - 01:51:830 (2) - ^^
01:43:716 (2) - 01:44:794 (2) - 01:48:020 (2,3) - 01:49:098 (2,3) - 01:52:363 (2) - Give them NC, for more emphasis on the metal part
01:47:749 (3) - Add a circle (close to the next slider)
01:59:570 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5) - I LOVE how you made this, since it's a "normal" part, so you also mapped it properly ^_^
02:04:045 (1,2) - Since this part is actually pretty, why not blanket this?
02:04:611 (3,1) - ^^
02:13:881 (2,3) - It might be only me, but these sounds shouldt imo all get an NC (though it might fuck up reading, so... up to you)
02:15:026 (1) - OMG WIGGLE
02:26:362 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,1,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,1,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,1,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,1) - Okay what the actual fuck
02:30:599 (9) - You NC slider #9 in the previous 2 patterns, but not here... NC this please
02:32:313 (9) - ^^
02:31:028 (1,1) - Please remember what I said about sliderjumps, when the slider has a reverse. Due to the reverse, the leniency goes away, so this is technically a 1/3-1/4 jump (which is like half screen)
02:33:171 (1) - This literally calls for an ugly slider, yet you make a boring one...
02:39:407 (9) - If you listen really carefully, you'll hear that the music is just a triplet, not a quintuplet, please remove this note
02:42:960 (9) - ^^
02:53:686 (1) - Can people even follow the slider? Since it's soo long, people are forced to move along with the slider...
02:55:471 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,1,1) - Isn't this a bit overboard...
-----------------------------
03:05:329 (1) - You use a 1/1 slider + 1 circle at the red tick in the previous parts, yet the music is the same, but here you have a 3/2 slider. Why not make it consistent?
03:07:390 (1) - ^^
03:45:634 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - It might be of the rotation, but something's a bit weird if you select them all. They are not properly aligned. (2) is a straight line with a few wiggles, and (4) is in a curve. Just something I found weird when I looked at it
04:06:081 (5) - You Always NC the first slider with "Stop", yet you didn't NC this (while you did NC 04:06:581 (1) -
04:25:863 (2) - Feels a bit forced, and not following the rhythm, please stick to regular 1/2 here, instead of a 1/4 stack
04:33:754 (1,1,1,1) - This is amazing
Honestly, the map isn't bad. It really fits with the song. The only issue I'd have are the 1/4 sliderspams (but hey, I can't play this, so who am I to say stuff?)
I'd advise you to get a lot of testplays from the top 100 (top 10 would be even better), since that'd be soooo much more valueable for high-tier difficulties than normal mods
Good luck!
First, increase the OD to 9.6
It's currently OD 9.4, which allows Notelocking to happen for maps over BPM of 282,50 (refer to t/334458)
Some parts are 286 BPM. If you set OD to 9.5, BPM of 285 is fine, but 286 is barely out
9.6 would make much more sense (and playability, 9.6 isn't that much harder than 9.4)
[Diff]
00:17:766 (1,2,3,4) - You are aiming at ugly, so why is this perfectly symmetrical...
00:26:553 (1,2,3,4) - Why not make all of these sliders slightly increase in SV? The music gets much more intense, and deservse those changes
00:27:409 (1) - Keeping your mindset, this slider is way too pretty. A blanket? Oh hell no (talking about the end with the red node above it), try something as ugly as this (also gives better flow to the next slider, so yey)
00:32:760 (3,1) - This jump is absolutely nuts. (3) has a reverse at the red tick, so the earliest you can let go of this is after that point. This gives less than 1/2 (at 280 BPM) to hit the slider which moves at high speed, back to (3)
00:34:903 - I swear I can hear some sounds here...
00:39:852 (6) - Please, no offbeat sliders (applies to the next slider as well)
00:40:172 (1) - Fits the music much better if it's a 1/1 slider, due to it being offbeat (from red tick to red tick)
00:43:047 (4) - NC, for the DDEDEDEDE
00:44:770 (5) - 00:46:484 (3) - 00:48:192 (3) - ^^
00:48:192 (3) - Why on earth is this 1/4 while the other similar sounds are 1/2?
00:53:425 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,4) - This looks... not ugly...
00:58:150 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - Wait... I thought only Fort would ever do something as this
01:01:580 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - Are you sure you are not Fort?
01:33:991 (1,2) - Seriously...
01:35:915 (4) - NC, refer to above
01:37:630 (5) - ^^
01:39:344 (5) - ^^
01:36:505 (2,6,2) - Is it just me, or are these the only triplets in the whole map? Don't you think 1/4 sldiers (with reverses please
) would work better?01:41:847 (2) - Please have an NC, to distinguish between "oriental" and "deathmetal"
01:43:163 (2) - 01:44:275 (2) - 01:45:997 (2) - 01:46:857 (2) - 01:47:522 (2) - 01:50:303 (2) - 01:51:166 (2) - 01:51:830 (2) - ^^
01:43:716 (2) - 01:44:794 (2) - 01:48:020 (2,3) - 01:49:098 (2,3) - 01:52:363 (2) - Give them NC, for more emphasis on the metal part
01:47:749 (3) - Add a circle (close to the next slider)
01:59:570 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5) - I LOVE how you made this, since it's a "normal" part, so you also mapped it properly ^_^
02:04:045 (1,2) - Since this part is actually pretty, why not blanket this?
02:04:611 (3,1) - ^^
02:13:881 (2,3) - It might be only me, but these sounds shouldt imo all get an NC (though it might fuck up reading, so... up to you)
02:15:026 (1) - OMG WIGGLE
02:26:362 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,1,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,1,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,1,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,1) - Okay what the actual fuck
02:30:599 (9) - You NC slider #9 in the previous 2 patterns, but not here... NC this please
02:32:313 (9) - ^^
02:31:028 (1,1) - Please remember what I said about sliderjumps, when the slider has a reverse. Due to the reverse, the leniency goes away, so this is technically a 1/3-1/4 jump (which is like half screen)
02:33:171 (1) - This literally calls for an ugly slider, yet you make a boring one...
02:39:407 (9) - If you listen really carefully, you'll hear that the music is just a triplet, not a quintuplet, please remove this note
02:42:960 (9) - ^^
02:53:686 (1) - Can people even follow the slider? Since it's soo long, people are forced to move along with the slider...
02:55:471 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,1,1) - Isn't this a bit overboard...
-----------------------------
03:05:329 (1) - You use a 1/1 slider + 1 circle at the red tick in the previous parts, yet the music is the same, but here you have a 3/2 slider. Why not make it consistent?
03:07:390 (1) - ^^
03:45:634 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - It might be of the rotation, but something's a bit weird if you select them all. They are not properly aligned. (2) is a straight line with a few wiggles, and (4) is in a curve. Just something I found weird when I looked at it
04:06:081 (5) - You Always NC the first slider with "Stop", yet you didn't NC this (while you did NC 04:06:581 (1) -
04:25:863 (2) - Feels a bit forced, and not following the rhythm, please stick to regular 1/2 here, instead of a 1/4 stack
04:33:754 (1,1,1,1) - This is amazing
Honestly, the map isn't bad. It really fits with the song. The only issue I'd have are the 1/4 sliderspams (but hey, I can't play this, so who am I to say stuff?)
I'd advise you to get a lot of testplays from the top 100 (top 10 would be even better), since that'd be soooo much more valueable for high-tier difficulties than normal mods
Good luck!
For those suggesting AR10, please think about that again. More than 50% of the song is really calm. That doesn't fit.
Also, .3 difference shouldn't be that much of a problem.
Also, .3 difference shouldn't be that much of a problem.
For reference:
Hi. I have posted some fluff in this thread a while ago for shits & giggles, but I believe that since there's a discussion growing on with pertinent subjects and arguments, I believe I should join in with what is my opinion on the whole matter. Spoiler alert: I don't like the map and I don't want to see this ranked without a complete remap (or at least a full spread without this difficulty).
First point: The map would disrespect the length rule if it didn't abuse a loophole in the ranking criteria. This is explained as something which is currently ok in the ranking criteria by Stefan, but it still is something immoral that is deliberately abused by Monstrata in order to get a map ranked with much lower effort. Apparently, the initial excuse given was that the song isn't "worthy" of a full spread or just not good enough to have easier difficulties mapped. Well, I've been told several times that these cases are just songs that shouldn't have been mapped in the first place. If you don't feel like you're capable of at least making easier difficulties for your map, then you shouldn't even bother making harder difficulties. On the top of all the other issues this beatmap has, this one just screams "I'm too lazy to even put effort into this joke of a beatmap, but I'm dedicated enough to get it ranked". It's one of the many insults that this does to the mapping community in general, being: If you're popular, you can just rely on your friends to get your lazily mapped beatmap ranked. Also, for the players: mappers are lazy and don't care if you can't play harder difficulties.
Second point: There is no proof of thorough playtesting and player input in the map. If the beatmap is truly directed to its target audience based on star rating, then it's extremely weird to not see any input from top 100 players, and the ones I've asked about, were feeling offended that such a beatmap was ranked in the first place - they didn't feel it was enjoyable to play or a needed map in the ranked section. If you can't even please the small target audience you're directing your map to, then there's something definitely wrong with the map. All of the "tasteful" aesthetic choices you went for, are just deliberately making the map play worse due to its bad patterning, awkward flow and just poor decision-making in placement and the ways you wanted to make the map follow the song. MAYBE that wasn't intentional, but the smug passive-aggressive responses from the mapper such as "Well, you guys are proving the point I wanted to make with the map, it was supposed to make you feel like that!" just prove that this was a deliberate "gimmick" that isn't even supposed to make the map more enjoyable in any way. You should want, as a mapper, to make the map as fun and enjoyable as possible. If you're avoiding that, even using gimmicks, you're just not mapping in a good way, and you're not mapping for the ranking criteria. This just throws another insult at the mapping/playing community: mappers don't care if you can't play their map properly; their aesthetic/gimmick choice is more important than your fun.
Third point: This beatmap is mocking bad beatmapping... and still manages to get ranked. Why? There is nothing wrong with mapping for the graveyard. This beatmap was designed as a joke, and it was really funny until the mapper started to take it seriously. I'm all for maps that use gimmicks in way to make it play differently and still care about playability, such as HW maps (which people have been wrongly comparing this to), but this beatmap is, as explained earlier, using gimmicks to make the map play/feel worse. I'm not even talking about the difficulty abuse/spikes or the aesthetic itself, it's just that the map plays poorly. If you want to blame it in the song, then it goes back to the first point: Why even map this song in the first place, other than for a joke? And if it's a joke, why do you want it ranked? It's not a good thing for mappers, it's not a good thing for players, and it's just awful for your reputation since now apparently the world is out to hate on you and your maps from now on.
I don't want to go on the specifics as what patterns are bad or not; there seems to be enough modding, and, to be honest, it's not gonna help with anything. Since people love to misuse this quote in HW maps, I'll be using it properly here for the first time:
As a fellow mapper who has been around for some time, please listen to my advice. Don't make this worse for mappers, who are always getting shat on by the players because of bad mapping decisions like this one. I recommend you to simply remap this entire thing as a serious map, and if you can't make this song work out, then maybe the song shouldn't have been mapped to begin with, and you can put it in the graveyard, where it belongs.
Hi. I have posted some fluff in this thread a while ago for shits & giggles, but I believe that since there's a discussion growing on with pertinent subjects and arguments, I believe I should join in with what is my opinion on the whole matter. Spoiler alert: I don't like the map and I don't want to see this ranked without a complete remap (or at least a full spread without this difficulty).
First point: The map would disrespect the length rule if it didn't abuse a loophole in the ranking criteria. This is explained as something which is currently ok in the ranking criteria by Stefan, but it still is something immoral that is deliberately abused by Monstrata in order to get a map ranked with much lower effort. Apparently, the initial excuse given was that the song isn't "worthy" of a full spread or just not good enough to have easier difficulties mapped. Well, I've been told several times that these cases are just songs that shouldn't have been mapped in the first place. If you don't feel like you're capable of at least making easier difficulties for your map, then you shouldn't even bother making harder difficulties. On the top of all the other issues this beatmap has, this one just screams "I'm too lazy to even put effort into this joke of a beatmap, but I'm dedicated enough to get it ranked". It's one of the many insults that this does to the mapping community in general, being: If you're popular, you can just rely on your friends to get your lazily mapped beatmap ranked. Also, for the players: mappers are lazy and don't care if you can't play harder difficulties.
Second point: There is no proof of thorough playtesting and player input in the map. If the beatmap is truly directed to its target audience based on star rating, then it's extremely weird to not see any input from top 100 players, and the ones I've asked about, were feeling offended that such a beatmap was ranked in the first place - they didn't feel it was enjoyable to play or a needed map in the ranked section. If you can't even please the small target audience you're directing your map to, then there's something definitely wrong with the map. All of the "tasteful" aesthetic choices you went for, are just deliberately making the map play worse due to its bad patterning, awkward flow and just poor decision-making in placement and the ways you wanted to make the map follow the song. MAYBE that wasn't intentional, but the smug passive-aggressive responses from the mapper such as "Well, you guys are proving the point I wanted to make with the map, it was supposed to make you feel like that!" just prove that this was a deliberate "gimmick" that isn't even supposed to make the map more enjoyable in any way. You should want, as a mapper, to make the map as fun and enjoyable as possible. If you're avoiding that, even using gimmicks, you're just not mapping in a good way, and you're not mapping for the ranking criteria. This just throws another insult at the mapping/playing community: mappers don't care if you can't play their map properly; their aesthetic/gimmick choice is more important than your fun.
Third point: This beatmap is mocking bad beatmapping... and still manages to get ranked. Why? There is nothing wrong with mapping for the graveyard. This beatmap was designed as a joke, and it was really funny until the mapper started to take it seriously. I'm all for maps that use gimmicks in way to make it play differently and still care about playability, such as HW maps (which people have been wrongly comparing this to), but this beatmap is, as explained earlier, using gimmicks to make the map play/feel worse. I'm not even talking about the difficulty abuse/spikes or the aesthetic itself, it's just that the map plays poorly. If you want to blame it in the song, then it goes back to the first point: Why even map this song in the first place, other than for a joke? And if it's a joke, why do you want it ranked? It's not a good thing for mappers, it's not a good thing for players, and it's just awful for your reputation since now apparently the world is out to hate on you and your maps from now on.
I don't want to go on the specifics as what patterns are bad or not; there seems to be enough modding, and, to be honest, it's not gonna help with anything. Since people love to misuse this quote in HW maps, I'll be using it properly here for the first time:
The concept behind the beatmap is fundamentally flawed from the start. You simply cannot get a map that mocks other beatmaps using bad playing elements ranked, especially using friends in the BNG to help you get through the rules and all moral issues that arise from getting the beatmap ranked.Code of Conduct wrote:
Unless the concept behind a beatmap is fundamentally flawed from the start, modding should aim to improve the map in it’s current design - not force your own style upon it. If you truly believe the map has too many significant issues to address individually, try to give a general statement of why this is the case and what direction you think the map should go in to get back on track.
As a fellow mapper who has been around for some time, please listen to my advice. Don't make this worse for mappers, who are always getting shat on by the players because of bad mapping decisions like this one. I recommend you to simply remap this entire thing as a serious map, and if you can't make this song work out, then maybe the song shouldn't have been mapped to begin with, and you can put it in the graveyard, where it belongs.
So apparently, since things cooled down a bit now, I feel obliged to drop my word here.
In fact, I looked at this map just now and want to say, that I actually can not say anything. Why? Simply because I feel like there are only so many people that technically could say anything to this, because their playing skill and/or mapping experience is high enough to actually have an educated opinion here. I do not even know if these people even exist.
I could drop gigantic essays about how some of the slider jumps legit caused terminal cancer to me, the flow breaks, the forced full screen jumps on ridiculous BPM, etc etc etc. I probably don't like this map. But I am not sure if I don't like it because I can not play it or because it goes against legit everything I have seen so far. Even Hollow Wings, who does a lot of weird things in my opinion at times, is more controversial but way more evaluable in what she does. In both ways.
Not to speak of the unsatisfying replies from the mapper that may say "this is intentional" but nowhere actually justify the creation itself or explaining, why it is good as it is now (apart of it being intentional) - which really is insufficient and shouldn't surprise anybody if that is bond to cause backlash, as it reads like pure ignorance.
Usually, we try to rely on community feedback during Qualified phase, but it is bond to happen that at controversial creations, this is ending up failing. The fact that this isn't only hard but also purposefully "ugly" is making it not easy. And monstrata self is not helping with the fact that he literally asked 3 BNs that are not qualified to judge this kind of beatmaps at all, neither with their knowledge nor with their playing skill. These three people may do a decent job at other things, but they obviously do not know where their limit is placed. Ranking such things is very touchy and I feel like no one in the current BNG or QAT can simply evaluate that properly.
So what do we do with beatmaps that actually no one can evaluate properly? Simple: We don't qualify them. Going through the list of our BNs, QATs, mapper, staff, whoever, I feel like no one actually has the experience, know-how or skill to evaluate this creation properly and therefore I do not think that anybody should bubble this, because no one actually can reassure me that what they do is a good job, simply because it is impossible to do a good job here.
In other words: This map is too edge and pushing the bar way too much for current circumstances. I don't know if this would've been a probable map in 2 years, where people advanced in skill and experience even more. But I honestly believe that this map is maybe okay as it is, but no one can really tell. Therefore the community and this game is simply not ready for this beatmap yet (?).
I am a bit disappointed that the involved BNs are obviously unable to see this. They should've seen that their personal limits are exceeded at this creation my tenfold. They are probably good at other places, but like for everyone, they have limits. And crossing them in these cases is really unappreciated.
I hope this thread discontinues to explode and I really hope for everyone involved that they do not try to push this map again in near future, especially if they are not 123899023890954% sure they know what they are doing. And for the involved people, I am 284903489032583905% sure that they were not knowing what they are doing. I could put "no offense" here, but you are free to feel offended.
Please do not put hate on anyone, whatsoever. Errors happen, Hybris happens to everyone.
In fact, I looked at this map just now and want to say, that I actually can not say anything. Why? Simply because I feel like there are only so many people that technically could say anything to this, because their playing skill and/or mapping experience is high enough to actually have an educated opinion here. I do not even know if these people even exist.
I could drop gigantic essays about how some of the slider jumps legit caused terminal cancer to me, the flow breaks, the forced full screen jumps on ridiculous BPM, etc etc etc. I probably don't like this map. But I am not sure if I don't like it because I can not play it or because it goes against legit everything I have seen so far. Even Hollow Wings, who does a lot of weird things in my opinion at times, is more controversial but way more evaluable in what she does. In both ways.
Not to speak of the unsatisfying replies from the mapper that may say "this is intentional" but nowhere actually justify the creation itself or explaining, why it is good as it is now (apart of it being intentional) - which really is insufficient and shouldn't surprise anybody if that is bond to cause backlash, as it reads like pure ignorance.
Usually, we try to rely on community feedback during Qualified phase, but it is bond to happen that at controversial creations, this is ending up failing. The fact that this isn't only hard but also purposefully "ugly" is making it not easy. And monstrata self is not helping with the fact that he literally asked 3 BNs that are not qualified to judge this kind of beatmaps at all, neither with their knowledge nor with their playing skill. These three people may do a decent job at other things, but they obviously do not know where their limit is placed. Ranking such things is very touchy and I feel like no one in the current BNG or QAT can simply evaluate that properly.
So what do we do with beatmaps that actually no one can evaluate properly? Simple: We don't qualify them. Going through the list of our BNs, QATs, mapper, staff, whoever, I feel like no one actually has the experience, know-how or skill to evaluate this creation properly and therefore I do not think that anybody should bubble this, because no one actually can reassure me that what they do is a good job, simply because it is impossible to do a good job here.
In other words: This map is too edge and pushing the bar way too much for current circumstances. I don't know if this would've been a probable map in 2 years, where people advanced in skill and experience even more. But I honestly believe that this map is maybe okay as it is, but no one can really tell. Therefore the community and this game is simply not ready for this beatmap yet (?).
I am a bit disappointed that the involved BNs are obviously unable to see this. They should've seen that their personal limits are exceeded at this creation my tenfold. They are probably good at other places, but like for everyone, they have limits. And crossing them in these cases is really unappreciated.
I hope this thread discontinues to explode and I really hope for everyone involved that they do not try to push this map again in near future, especially if they are not 123899023890954% sure they know what they are doing. And for the involved people, I am 284903489032583905% sure that they were not knowing what they are doing. I could put "no offense" here, but you are free to feel offended.
Please do not put hate on anyone, whatsoever. Errors happen, Hybris happens to everyone.
For those suggesting other than AR10, please think about that again. More than 50% of the song is really intense. That doesn't fit.
Also, .3 difference shouldn't be that much of a problem.
You can see the same thing like this ^
My opinion, AR10 would fit better because (already explained by someone on this thread), The player will be accustomed to the high AR because of the intense part, it will really feel natural to his eyes while playing these slow parts.
But the other way around, a lower AR than 10 will make the playability of the intense part limited to players that have good reading skills, it will be uncomfortable to play for a majority of good players. While the playability of the slow part won't change with AR8 or AR10 because the song was already intense, and the slow part will look pretty easier.
Also, .3 difference shouldn't be that much of a problem.
You can see the same thing like this ^
My opinion, AR10 would fit better because (already explained by someone on this thread), The player will be accustomed to the high AR because of the intense part, it will really feel natural to his eyes while playing these slow parts.
But the other way around, a lower AR than 10 will make the playability of the intense part limited to players that have good reading skills, it will be uncomfortable to play for a majority of good players. While the playability of the slow part won't change with AR8 or AR10 because the song was already intense, and the slow part will look pretty easier.
Amen
Thanks for summing up Loc. This gives me a lesson too.
Everything about this map feels forced
Its just my opion though so who cares
∠( ｀・ω・)/
Its just my opion though so who cares
∠( ｀・ω・)/
The matter of AR is a really subjective one. One can deem a high AR (10) reasonable, since the first 60% of the map is full 280 BPM jumps and such. One can also claim that the AR needs to be lowered (to 9) because of the 2nd part.
In the end, it's all up to the mapper, and people should start respecting his choice of AR
While we're at it, go and support This thread since this will be a perfect example on why it should be added. Give AR 10 to the first part, and AR 7-8 to the second part
In the end, it's all up to the mapper, and people should start respecting his choice of AR
While we're at it, go and support This thread since this will be a perfect example on why it should be added. Give AR 10 to the first part, and AR 7-8 to the second part
Topic Starter
Hi Loctav. Thanks for the post.
I want to raise the question: "How can you tell if someone's qualified to judge a map properly?" Because I don't believe you need to be able to fc, or even pass the map to be able to judge the map's playability.
I've been involved with very difficult beatmaps for nearly a year now. I've both had experience mapping multiple 7+ star maps, and ranking multiple 7+ and even 8+ star maps. I'm sure there are other BN's out there who have done the same.
I think we're undervaluing people's ability to analyze difficult maps. Like other very difficult maps I've participated in, I'm confident that I know how it everything will play, the different angles (when playing vs. in editor), slider leniency, where players will likely abuse leniency, flow, where players are likely to singletap versus alternate, readability, etc...
Some of these jumps are simply very large. Perhaps the best example is: 02:55:471 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,1,1) - . I can't actually land the jumps, but I can know how they will play. If I scaled it down, the angles would be exactly the same, as with other jumps. The flow as well. As well, the ratio between white > red tick jumps, and red > white ticks (emphasis, basically) is also scaled down. If a smaller version of this exact same jump was used in another map, no one would have questioned the BN's ability to judge the specific pattern. The difference here isn't the high bpm, the angles, the spacing, the emphasis ratio, or anything like that. Those can all be scaled down, and applied to other bpms, and you'd still be able to judge their playability. The only things that can't be applied elsewhere are whether the patterns fit the song at that exact moment, and whether the spacing of the jumps are uncomfortable (ie, too big relative to the rest of the map, or too small). Patterns like these have, of course, undergone extensive reworking based on testplays, replays, BN's and high-ranked players' suggestions.
What I am saying is, the vast majority of this map can in fact be judged by most BN's. Just because something is 8.3 stars, doesn't mean everything is 8.3 stars and therefore cannot be accurately judged. I'm sure I can judge at least 98% of the map accurately, and I think my BN's can too. However, I do acknowledge my shortcomings, as some of those jumps are beyond me. I can only judge that in theory, based on rhythm, spacing, emphasis, angles, structure etc... they will play well, and operate as how I envisioned them when I mapped them. I can't judge whether they fit, or whether they are just uncomfortable to play. But, I think everyone who's mapped difficult stuff is already aware of this. It's why when we ask for testplays, or when we spectate/watch replays, we look particularly at certain sections of the map that we don't feel confident in.
I will proceed with ranking my other maps in the meantime, but I want to come back to this map in the near future. I still have some mods I need to reply to, and the modders have spent a good chunk of their time writing them, so I want to at least give them feedback. I hope we can come to a mutual understanding.
I want to raise the question: "How can you tell if someone's qualified to judge a map properly?" Because I don't believe you need to be able to fc, or even pass the map to be able to judge the map's playability.
I've been involved with very difficult beatmaps for nearly a year now. I've both had experience mapping multiple 7+ star maps, and ranking multiple 7+ and even 8+ star maps. I'm sure there are other BN's out there who have done the same.
I think we're undervaluing people's ability to analyze difficult maps. Like other very difficult maps I've participated in, I'm confident that I know how it everything will play, the different angles (when playing vs. in editor), slider leniency, where players will likely abuse leniency, flow, where players are likely to singletap versus alternate, readability, etc...
Some of these jumps are simply very large. Perhaps the best example is: 02:55:471 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,1,1) - . I can't actually land the jumps, but I can know how they will play. If I scaled it down, the angles would be exactly the same, as with other jumps. The flow as well. As well, the ratio between white > red tick jumps, and red > white ticks (emphasis, basically) is also scaled down. If a smaller version of this exact same jump was used in another map, no one would have questioned the BN's ability to judge the specific pattern. The difference here isn't the high bpm, the angles, the spacing, the emphasis ratio, or anything like that. Those can all be scaled down, and applied to other bpms, and you'd still be able to judge their playability. The only things that can't be applied elsewhere are whether the patterns fit the song at that exact moment, and whether the spacing of the jumps are uncomfortable (ie, too big relative to the rest of the map, or too small). Patterns like these have, of course, undergone extensive reworking based on testplays, replays, BN's and high-ranked players' suggestions.
What I am saying is, the vast majority of this map can in fact be judged by most BN's. Just because something is 8.3 stars, doesn't mean everything is 8.3 stars and therefore cannot be accurately judged. I'm sure I can judge at least 98% of the map accurately, and I think my BN's can too. However, I do acknowledge my shortcomings, as some of those jumps are beyond me. I can only judge that in theory, based on rhythm, spacing, emphasis, angles, structure etc... they will play well, and operate as how I envisioned them when I mapped them. I can't judge whether they fit, or whether they are just uncomfortable to play. But, I think everyone who's mapped difficult stuff is already aware of this. It's why when we ask for testplays, or when we spectate/watch replays, we look particularly at certain sections of the map that we don't feel confident in.
I will proceed with ranking my other maps in the meantime, but I want to come back to this map in the near future. I still have some mods I need to reply to, and the modders have spent a good chunk of their time writing them, so I want to at least give them feedback. I hope we can come to a mutual understanding.
i guess ar10 is reasonable here....
but in general i think ar10 should be used extremely sparingly. ar10 is not attainable for some people without immense time and effort, and there are probably a few for whom it is a physical impossibility. there are people with a quarter of my playcount who can read ar10 and i can hardly read it, and it's not like i never play ar10, i actually play it a decent amount. i'm sure there are many others like me, and i've already met a few, some higher ranked than me.
on the other hand, learning a slightly lower ar (9.7 instead of 10, come on it's not even that big of a difference) is far, far easier. i'm currently trying to learn EZ and although it's difficult it is still so much easier for me than learning ar10, which ive only recently just scratched the surface of. probably just bias on my part because i cant read ar10 but can people please just lower their ar threshold by .3, it's not even that big of a difference and not really all that hard, it's not like ar7 or something.
in general i guess osu isnt ready for this map yet, aesthetically speaking. maybe it doesnt play well, i dont know because i havent tried it, and if it plays badly that's a problem. but its intentionally "ugly" design, though very cool imo, isnt objectively good or bad; it just depends on what's fashionable atm and what the community likes. unfortunately most people cant seem to appreciate this kind of concept yet (and by the looks of they never will). shame.
i hope notch hell gets ranked
also to people who say this song wasn't meant to be mapped, why? this song has a steady bpm and offers up tons of interesting sounds to map to. how unadventurous does one have to be to claim that
but in general i think ar10 should be used extremely sparingly. ar10 is not attainable for some people without immense time and effort, and there are probably a few for whom it is a physical impossibility. there are people with a quarter of my playcount who can read ar10 and i can hardly read it, and it's not like i never play ar10, i actually play it a decent amount. i'm sure there are many others like me, and i've already met a few, some higher ranked than me.
on the other hand, learning a slightly lower ar (9.7 instead of 10, come on it's not even that big of a difference) is far, far easier. i'm currently trying to learn EZ and although it's difficult it is still so much easier for me than learning ar10, which ive only recently just scratched the surface of. probably just bias on my part because i cant read ar10 but can people please just lower their ar threshold by .3, it's not even that big of a difference and not really all that hard, it's not like ar7 or something.
in general i guess osu isnt ready for this map yet, aesthetically speaking. maybe it doesnt play well, i dont know because i havent tried it, and if it plays badly that's a problem. but its intentionally "ugly" design, though very cool imo, isnt objectively good or bad; it just depends on what's fashionable atm and what the community likes. unfortunately most people cant seem to appreciate this kind of concept yet (and by the looks of they never will). shame.
i hope notch hell gets ranked
also to people who say this song wasn't meant to be mapped, why? this song has a steady bpm and offers up tons of interesting sounds to map to. how unadventurous does one have to be to claim that
Monstrata pls put AR10 already, makes it more playable because holy fuck the BPM of these jumps for over half the map... :<
I think more of the problem is that it's possible to even find BNs for something like this. Personally I feel like there's a little bit of a bias going on here. If you look at the statistics for the duration it was qualified, 90% of the people playing the map disliked it and gave it extremely poor ratings. I'm not sure if that has to do with them not being able to play the map or just their overall opinion on the structure of the map (but it's probably a mix of both). If you actually want input from the community, you need to listen to them. Otherwise, the statistics from the community speaks for itself. This map is basically a "fuck you" to other mappers that are trying to get more enjoyable and realistic maps out there. That's just my opinion, but I've seen a lot of responses from others in the community and I think this is a pretty accurate depiction of this whole situation. I think you need to look more into understanding why people dislike the map (and do something about it) rather than going to your friends or whatever you do for testplays just to see if it's actually playable. Sure I don't have as much experience with mapping as some of the people in this thread, let alone do I even have a ranked map, but this map is really pushing it in my opinion and I agree with what most of Loctav said.
for those suggesting ar9.7, please think about that again. more than 50% of the song is really fucking insane. that doesn't fit.Yuii- wrote:
For those suggesting AR10, please think about that again. More than 50% of the song is really calm. That doesn't fit.
Also, .3 difference shouldn't be that much of a problem.
i mean you can play a calm part with ar10 and it'd be ok as for player, but hard part with ar9.7 is a pain in the ass.
and .3 difference makes a lots of effect
Thanks340 wrote:
hard part with ar9.7 is a pain in the ass.
and .3 difference makes a lots of effect
Monstrata, I feel like Loctav's post about the community being able to properly judge the map has more to do with the fact that this map pushes the boundaries of contemporary mapping in terms of build-up and structure in general rather than just difficulty, which is why the difficulty is not necessarily the thing that matters the most, but your new age approach is. Hollow Wings pushes boundaries reasonably roughly with his creations, whereas this is more like a bulldozer compared to that.
It's a bit like asking a traditional chef to judge molecular gastronomy dishes, it's just not going to go well unless the chef learns his way around that area.
Sadly for A-L-I-E-N, the area is one that is unexplored, so nobody can actually judge it properly or learn to judge it properly unless a few years of new age mapping allow the community to get to such a point.
It's a bit like asking a traditional chef to judge molecular gastronomy dishes, it's just not going to go well unless the chef learns his way around that area.
Sadly for A-L-I-E-N, the area is one that is unexplored, so nobody can actually judge it properly or learn to judge it properly unless a few years of new age mapping allow the community to get to such a point.
01:24:363 (1) - why is this slider 1/2 instead of 1/3 like 01:24:145 (4) -? there's no vocal here yet
Look, this map looks like shit and plays like butter. The jumps flow inexplicably well, the only jumps that don't feel like butter to me are - guess what - the hardest jumps in the map; the reason? I'm no where near good enough to play them. Maybe people should keep that in mind when thinking about this map. Worth noting that I even thing the 1/4 sliders play incredibly well too, everything works fine.
The map plays smooth and looks shit. Nothing about this plays/reads badly, if it's unrankable, it's because of a lack of blankets and other redundant aesthetic things that people care about and maybe a few small issues that need to be forked out with a comb.
Personally I could not give two fucks about aesthetics if it the map plays well.
Also please don't compare this map to anything wings has done, this map plays like a fairly standard map in my opinion; relatively easy to read with natural flowing triangle jumps. It's just ugly as fuck and people seem to think ugly mapping is "20XX never before seen shitmapping".
EDIT: AR9.2 was cooler.
The map plays smooth and looks shit. Nothing about this plays/reads badly, if it's unrankable, it's because of a lack of blankets and other redundant aesthetic things that people care about and maybe a few small issues that need to be forked out with a comb.
Personally I could not give two fucks about aesthetics if it the map plays well.
Also please don't compare this map to anything wings has done, this map plays like a fairly standard map in my opinion; relatively easy to read with natural flowing triangle jumps. It's just ugly as fuck and people seem to think ugly mapping is "20XX never before seen shitmapping".
EDIT: AR9.2 was cooler.
It feels FAR more natural than tengaku too, harder in places but never quite as iffy to follow.Kynan wrote:
Exactly what Jesse said, it's kinda like Tengaku tbh.
tbh i think it looks kinda cool but idkjesse1412 wrote:
Look, this map looks like shit and plays like butter. The jumps flow inexplicably well, the only jumps that don't feel like butter to me are - guess what - the hardest jumps in the map; the reason? I'm no where near good enough to play them. Maybe people should keep that in mind when thinking about this map. Worth noting that I even thing the 1/4 sliders play incredibly well too, everything works fine.
The map plays smooth and looks shit. Nothing about this plays/reads badly, if it's unrankable, it's because of a lack of blankets and other redundant aesthetic things that people care about and maybe a few small issues that need to be forked out with a comb.
Personally I could not give two fucks about aesthetics if it the map plays well.
Also please don't compare this map to anything wings has done, this map plays like a fairly standard map in my opinion; relatively easy to read with natural flowing triangle jumps. It's just ugly as fuck and people seem to think ugly mapping is "20XX never before seen shitmapping".
EDIT: AR9.2 was cooler.
Gotta agree with Jesse, it really hasn't got anything new in terms of playing except a few parts which are quite linear (notably the early pentagon part) but plays like any other map, just upscaled in bpm.
This is exactly because it's something really subjective that it shouldn't be decided by only one person...Bara- wrote:
The matter of AR is a really subjective one. One can deem a high AR (10) reasonable, since the first 60% of the map is full 280 BPM jumps and such. One can also claim that the AR needs to be lowered (to 9) because of the 2nd part.
In the end, it's all up to the mapper, and people should start respecting his choice of AR
This is so subjective that it should be decided by everyone.
There's too much maps that are not played because the choosen AR is too low.
I'd say that the low AR is one of the main reason why people start playing DT or HR or don't play old maps...
It's Monstrata's map, he should be the one who decides everything.
And what exactly is "everything"?isopaharuntikka wrote:
It's Monstrata's map, he should be the one who decides everything.
Damn we are lucky, imagine if he couldn't read AR9, he would put AR8 in the map and it should be fine right ?isopaharuntikka wrote:
It's Monstrata's map, he should be the one who decides everything.
You can actually turn a good map to a shitmap (and reciprocally) just by putting the wrong AR.
But the AR is never good for everyone. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Also some stuff I do think plays a bit crap:
01:33:991 (1) - Way too fast and the slider ticks aren't easy to slide across/follow which makes it really hard to read/follow.
01:36:344 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3) - These "triples" play like arse, I'd recommend just making them into actual triples or something, tacking them onto slider ends isn't good.
As much as I think ar9 would be cool, I'll add that the current ar is perfectly fine across the map for me. If you can make it to the slow part you won't even second guess what's happening at this ar unless the miracles of jesus himself have carried you past the large jumps. Also regarding those huge jumps, I can't play them properly but they're literally upscaled versions of the other jumps in the map so for an able player they're probably nice and smooth.
01:33:991 (1) - Way too fast and the slider ticks aren't easy to slide across/follow which makes it really hard to read/follow.
01:36:344 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3) - These "triples" play like arse, I'd recommend just making them into actual triples or something, tacking them onto slider ends isn't good.
As much as I think ar9 would be cool, I'll add that the current ar is perfectly fine across the map for me. If you can make it to the slow part you won't even second guess what's happening at this ar unless the miracles of jesus himself have carried you past the large jumps. Also regarding those huge jumps, I can't play them properly but they're literally upscaled versions of the other jumps in the map so for an able player they're probably nice and smooth.
Because it uses comfortable angles and patterns, while Tengaku explores the uncomfortable ones. =Pjesse1412 wrote:
It feels FAR more natural than tengaku too, harder in places but never quite as iffy to follow.Kynan wrote:
Exactly what Jesse said, it's kinda like Tengaku tbh.
I feel like there are two main points people make about this map, and why they don't think it should be ranked:
The first one is, that the map looks ugly, but I haven't seen a single explanation why this is a bad thing. Why is it more fun to click on a good looking slider rather than one that is "ugly"? And on top of that, as has been mentioned a lot of times, the "ugly" sliders fit the "ugly" music.
The other thing is, people say this map was deliberately made to play poorly (even though a lot of other people say that the map plays surprisingly well). The main issue I have with this argument is, that these people forget (or don't realize) that there can be more to a map than "how well it plays". Charles445's podcast talked a bit about it, how maps can have an emotional effect on the player, besides "this feels good to play" or "it felt great that I fc'ed that bit". My point is, that making the map "play worse" is justifiable, if the reason was to make the map fit the song better, or in some other way add to the experience.
The first one is, that the map looks ugly, but I haven't seen a single explanation why this is a bad thing. Why is it more fun to click on a good looking slider rather than one that is "ugly"? And on top of that, as has been mentioned a lot of times, the "ugly" sliders fit the "ugly" music.
The other thing is, people say this map was deliberately made to play poorly (even though a lot of other people say that the map plays surprisingly well). The main issue I have with this argument is, that these people forget (or don't realize) that there can be more to a map than "how well it plays". Charles445's podcast talked a bit about it, how maps can have an emotional effect on the player, besides "this feels good to play" or "it felt great that I fc'ed that bit". My point is, that making the map "play worse" is justifiable, if the reason was to make the map fit the song better, or in some other way add to the experience.
Adding to all the comments I've seen about this map. It's not even the first time something like this has happened. As I said in the map disqus when it was qualified, it comes to my mind gmtn vs. kozato - squartatrice by soulfear
Exactly this, the entire point of the uglyness of the map was to give an emotional impact on the player. Its like "wow! i can really feel how ugly this song is through the map!"jawns wrote:
I feel like there are two main points people make about this map, and why they don't think it should be ranked:
The first one is, that the map looks ugly, but I haven't seen a single explanation why this is a bad thing. Why is it more fun to click on a good looking slider rather than one that is "ugly"? And on top of that, as has been mentioned a lot of times, the "ugly" sliders fit the "ugly" music.
The other thing is, people say this map was deliberately made to play poorly (even though a lot of other people say that the map plays surprisingly well). The main issue I have with this argument is, that these people forget (or don't realize) that there can be more to a map than "how well it plays". Charles445's podcast talked a bit about it, how maps can have an emotional effect on the player, besides "this feels good to play" or "it felt great that I fc'ed that bit". My point is, that making the map "play worse" is justifiable, if the reason was to make the map fit the song better, or in some other way add to the experience.
Sadly, as he mentioned in the podcast, people are doing this less and less, and focusing on only the good looking and playable things that we call "meta".
01:47:749 - i'm pretty sure you need a note here. it's a bit too close to the next sound, but it's existent and it needs to be mapped. good solution is to add a repeat to last slider
02:21:185 (3,4) - he keeps screaming here right until the (4), so it would be fitting to keep the same speed between 3 and 4.
maybe like this http://i.imgur.com/fwZSzwh.png
it looks a bit weird to have only 2 circles stacked, so i'd better do this instead: http://i.imgur.com/DBZfomv.jpg
02:39:407 - this circle needs to be removed, no sound here
02:42:960 (9) - same tbh
02:49:010 (1) - please ctrl+j (on the same position), just for my enjoyment (and better flow)
02:50:353 (1) - the second sound (all red ticks) is actually a bit earlier than the red tick. it's on the 1/8 tick. i'm pretty sure you already know this. i think it would be quite fun if it was mapped like that: http://i.imgur.com/tbRQzvA.png
01:36:505 (2,3) - and reminding you about wrong triples which indeed sounds like 1/3 for me http://i.imgur.com/82ESJ0F.png
02:21:185 (3,4) - he keeps screaming here right until the (4), so it would be fitting to keep the same speed between 3 and 4.
maybe like this http://i.imgur.com/fwZSzwh.png
it looks a bit weird to have only 2 circles stacked, so i'd better do this instead: http://i.imgur.com/DBZfomv.jpg
02:39:407 - this circle needs to be removed, no sound here
02:42:960 (9) - same tbh
02:49:010 (1) - please ctrl+j (on the same position), just for my enjoyment (and better flow)
02:50:353 (1) - the second sound (all red ticks) is actually a bit earlier than the red tick. it's on the 1/8 tick. i'm pretty sure you already know this. i think it would be quite fun if it was mapped like that: http://i.imgur.com/tbRQzvA.png
01:36:505 (2,3) - and reminding you about wrong triples which indeed sounds like 1/3 for me http://i.imgur.com/82ESJ0F.png
Maybe by picking dedicated "ugly" patterns.. For example, 4 patterns but using them randomly could give the feeling of "ugly" without actually being ugly. It remains consistent with same patterns so that way it can provide an "insane" feeling? It would still look nice though. Maybe thats a good happy medium for the craziness
Hmm... Why you adding again maximum in tags again? It's already in artist?
Repost this part of blue dragon msg, cause i thinks it explain perfectly with this map should not be ranked.
Second point: There is no proof of thorough playtesting and player input in the map. If the beatmap is truly directed to its target audience based on star rating, then it's extremely weird to not see any input from top 100 players, and the ones I've asked about, were feeling offended that such a beatmap was ranked in the first place - they didn't feel it was enjoyable to play or a needed map in the ranked section. If you can't even please the small target audience you're directing your map to, then there's something definitely wrong with the map.
I find it kinda funny that map's SR drops to 3.65* if you delete first ~3 minutes.
Imo if you cut it in half and make two maps out of this song (with full diff spreads) it's actually rankable.
Imo if you cut it in half and make two maps out of this song (with full diff spreads) it's actually rankable.
This made me laugh too hard.Kibbleru wrote:
"wow! i can really feel how ugly this song is through the map!"
i find it kinda funny that water is wetCatshy wrote:
I find it kinda funny that map's SR drops to 3.65* if you delete first ~3 minutes.
"Water isn't wet. Wetness is a description of our experience of water; what happens to us when we come into contact with water in such a way that it impinges on our state of being. We, or our possessions, 'get wet'."Spaghetti wrote:
i find it kinda funny that water is wetCatshy wrote:
I find it kinda funny that map's SR drops to 3.65* if you delete first ~3 minutes.
forget the map; this thread is the real artidke wrote:
"Water isn't wet. Wetness is a description of our experience of water; what happens to us when we come into contact with water in such a way that it impinges on our state of being. We, or our possessions, 'get wet'."Spaghetti wrote:
i find it kinda funny that water is wet
on a separate note, this song has evolved into a bit of guilty pleasure for me and I hate myself for it.
I hope you are curious. I completely disagree with 5 minutes being bottom limit for approval, but if we have rules let's try not to find iffy ways around them. This way I can record my dog barking for 1 minute and loop it over a drum beat, call it "Super Funny Dog Remix Extension", add it to every 4 minute song and go for approval. The guitar sounds here might be part of the song's performance, but they don't have any rhythmical timing nor contribute to song's composition in any way.IamKwaN wrote:
Looking through the map, I find some of the inputs provided by the community valid.
Please have your discussion stick to the map only and anything not constructive would be removed.
EDIT:I am curious about this.hoozimajiget wrote:
But the actual song length noted in the album track listing is 4:46. So how are there 14 seconds of artificially generated length?
I realize this is off topic, but just chiming in for a sec.Akali wrote:
IamKwaN wrote:
Looking through the map, I find some of the inputs provided by the community valid.
Please have your discussion stick to the map only and anything not constructive would be removed.
EDIT:
I hope you are curious. I completely disagree with 5 minutes being bottom limit for approval, but if we have rules let's try not to find iffy ways around them. This way I can record my dog barking for 1 minute and loop it over a drum beat, call it "Super Funny Dog Remix Extension", add it to every 4 minute song and go for approval. The guitar sounds here might be part of the song's performance, but they don't have any rhythmical timing nor contribute to song's composition in any way.
I mean, I remember how much crap asphyxias kyoumei map got for using the chorus again or something at the end. He ended up DQing because of the huge amount of crap he got. However we still see this way of circumventing the 5min mark ranked quite a few times since that. I guess these things will be updated in the soon to be reworked RC, but we still need some clarification on this because rules seem to bend depending on the map when it comes to this.
Maybe peoples doesn't like your map because it's just bad lol
i like those kicksliders and some parts of the maps, but it sometimes feel a bit weird to play :d
"it's just bad"Cubensis wrote:
Maybe peoples doesn't like your map because it's just bad lol
Very helpful advice here my friend
Edit:
04:45:311 (1,1) - maybe make the spinner 1/8 away from the slider instead of 1/4? there's kinda a weird pause between the two as it is
The triplets around 02:37:015 (2,3,4) feel overmapped to me. Why put them in there? There's nothing corresponding in the song.
In general though, I don't see what all the fuss is about. The spacing and jerkiness is warranted. Have you listened to the song? It thrashes about and shifts gears in a deliberately grotesque and sporadic manner which the map mirrors effectively. "It's hard" "it's bad" "it's different" "I don't like it"... these are not sufficient grounds to write off a map.
In general though, I don't see what all the fuss is about. The spacing and jerkiness is warranted. Have you listened to the song? It thrashes about and shifts gears in a deliberately grotesque and sporadic manner which the map mirrors effectively. "It's hard" "it's bad" "it's different" "I don't like it"... these are not sufficient grounds to write off a map.
The map is fine, why does it have to look good? Aslong as it's fun to play noone should give a shit
I at first thought this map is bad, just to join the hate-train, but I gave it a try myself and this map is actually fun, the only thing I don't like are the "slider-jump-streams", as I like to call them
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytqJDAelxRQ
I at first thought this map is bad, just to join the hate-train, but I gave it a try myself and this map is actually fun, the only thing I don't like are the "slider-jump-streams", as I like to call them
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytqJDAelxRQ
I disagree. You map to a song. Not to one half of a song.Catshy wrote:
I find it kinda funny that map's SR drops to 3.65* if you delete first ~3 minutes.
Imo if you cut it in half and make two maps out of this song (with full diff spreads) it's actually rankable.
Reposting my mod xd This thread is really out of controlUnderforest wrote:
I'll try to help out here
02:50:353 - this red point you should do it 7/4 instead of 4/4 imo
03:11:415 (1) - end this at 03:13:440 - if you're trying to follow vocal
04:42:747 - add 109 BPM redline
04:44:784 - change this to 114 BPM
04:45:311 (1) - you can make this heart slider much better than now234,109,285311,6,0,B|234:102|203:78|143:78|136:142|109:196|189:209|257:289|257:289|324:209|404:196|377:142|370:78|310:78|277:102|278:116,1,599.999981689454,2|2,0:0|0:2,0:0:0:0:04:49:426 (1) - at the spinner end you can put a whistle here
even if it's too harder it's a great map, don't let the user rating let winny upload continue his road
if I didn't helped, don't gimme kudosu
you should $uicideboys - kill yourself part 3Cubensis wrote:
Maybe peoples doesn't like your map because it's just bad lol
tatoeMonstrata wrote:
More beautiful version: http://puu.sh/pPbU4/42e16d9b88.osz
le tue map sono piú farmose anche di tatoeMark101 wrote:
tatoeMonstrata wrote:
More beautiful version: http://puu.sh/pPbU4/42e16d9b88.osz
this more and more reminds me of youtube comments... what happened ._.Frostwich wrote:
you should $uicideboys - kill yourself part 3Cubensis wrote:
Maybe peoples doesn't like your map because it's just bad lol
btw:
imo those sliders match the music perfectly, it is well mapped, and fun to play. whats wrong
Frostwich wrote:
you should $uicideboys - kill yourself part 3Cubensis wrote:
Maybe peoples doesn't like your map because it's just bad lol
I dont want to give my opinion about this map, because im speechless (lol)
But, for me, just for me, is not the time to make this map ranked.
But, for me, just for me, is not the time to make this map ranked.
00:49:841 (3,1,2,3,4,1) -
00:52:876 (4,1,2,3) -
02:16:532 (3,4,1) -
wow
great flow
keep it up :')
00:52:876 (4,1,2,3) -
02:16:532 (3,4,1) -
wow
great flow
keep it up :')
worst
what is this
a map
good map when qual???
Rank it already, please ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
hi guys, im just a random osu player....
i love drama
i love drama
Is it real?
This is incredible! ^-^
Its what I imagine mapping would be like right now if the general "meta" for mapping evolved in a completely different way than it did.
Its really tempting to just look at this map and say, "Shit map xddxDX; lel" but I honestly can't bring myself to even call this bad, or average.
Its mapped in such a way that it stretches the boundaries of what is creative or innovative and what is just downright...insane
Its probably the most creative map I've ever seen...you look at what you actually did in order to create this map and have it flow in the way it did and it becomes clear that there was intention behind this madness.
Art.
Its what I imagine mapping would be like right now if the general "meta" for mapping evolved in a completely different way than it did.
Its really tempting to just look at this map and say, "Shit map xddxDX; lel" but I honestly can't bring myself to even call this bad, or average.
Its mapped in such a way that it stretches the boundaries of what is creative or innovative and what is just downright...insane
Its probably the most creative map I've ever seen...you look at what you actually did in order to create this map and have it flow in the way it did and it becomes clear that there was intention behind this madness.
Art.
I agree!GhostZ wrote:
Really Beautiful Map
Ranked when
Now that we've seen Monstrata's Aspire, are people going to rethink what they said about this map?
Not really. Monstrata's new map is probably one of the best of this year, but this is still a joke.mvb wrote:
Now that we've seen Monstrata's Aspire, are people going to rethink what they said about this map?
lolBlue Dragon wrote:
Not really. Monstrata's new map is probably one of the best of this year, but this is still a joke.mvb wrote:
Now that we've seen Monstrata's Aspire, are people going to rethink what they said about this map?
Mania version soon 
stoppuxtu wrote:
Mania version soon
I agreeTinosaurus wrote:
puxtu wrote:
Mania version soonstoppls do it puxtu senpai, daisuki