Sonnyc wrote:

Avishay wrote:

Okay! I've decided to get some more opinions from high rank players on the highest diff, therefore I'll pop the bubble myself, I'll post screenshots and logs here.

Also better not pop your own bubble using a self-icon since it raises 5 star priority. Doing such stuff isn't right in the ranking procedure, and is unfair for non-bns afterall!

I did not know it does that, sorry.

But I am highly positive that stat priority has no importance.


@Stjpa, it's just that I don't myself the need to be so tight when mapping HL difficulties.

just to clear a few things up once the examples have been cleaned up and the other patterns are brought up feel free to have BN recheck the map for the ranking process again.

Great, I will.

hitsounds are strange

I can't really give a response to that, could you elaborate? I hitsound in a way that is honset to the song and not automated, while keeping note feedback in place.

well, it seems like the issues were fixed/addressed to so we can get it back on the road now.

if any1 else has any concerns, now is the time to speak up.

Avishay wrote:

I can't really give a response to that, could you elaborate? I hitsound in a way that is honset to the song and not automated, while keeping note feedback in place.

sorry, never mind,that's just my mistake.


plus, a little tip:
DiFf_(k)NAME
00:31:386 flow uncomfortable.

@^
Not really sure how to comment on that, I tried looking around but it seems pretty fine, next time elaborate further on why.

We fixed last inconsistencies with spacing, at least what looks weird to me :/
Since issues were fixed, should be to go again.

(K)NoW_GRATZ

(A)Vi_SHAY - Rank map

congrats!

(K)NiCe_MEME
good luck on round 2 :d

Hello, congratulations for get this mapset qualified but there are some things that concern me a lot and for obvious reasons could be improved.

DiFf_(k)NAME

1. 00:01:586 (1,1,1,1) - These kind of patterns look good and are awesome if they fit, but this is not the case here. In this song the music and the voice at the beginning sound consistent and there technically is no change in the music. I would like to recommend you to do something different instead.
2. 00:05:586 - 00:10:586 - The whole section is quite weird itself, due to that there are some beats that were completely ignored so it can be somehow difficult to understand and to play play also these changes of speeds doesn't helps at all neither.
   00:29:786 (1,2) - Could you explain to me why you've used a spacing lower at this section in compared to the rest that is technically the same kind of rhythm and that you've added jumps there?
3. 00:10:586 (1,1) - The pitch in both sections feels almost the same. The only difference is the sound finish at the background but the voice seems like the same, so a change of speed in this part makes no sense at all.
4. 00:32:786 (7,1,2) - I really don't understand the point of the constantly mapped into a double BPM and then go back to typical 1/2 rhythm? actually this could be even more confused due that the previous object is 1/4 and then swap it into 1/2 is difficult to read anyways I'm quite sure that most of the players will be confused or probably will fail that part so I would suggest you remap the whole pattern by anything else.
5. 01:03:786 (1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,1) - The same thing happens here, just that in this part it is a bit different - but I guess you get the idea.
6. 00:40:386 (2) - This SV makes no sense, the vocal is not that much lower to do something like this.
7. 00:43:286 - How about to add something clickable here? There are some sounds that are quite noticeable.
8. 00:51:186 (1,2,3,4,5) - Overall it's not that bad but I'm pretty sure that this could be more polished, try to make it consistent.
9. 00:56:386 (1,2,5) - I think these kind of jumps are quite inconsistent because the background sound seems like the same all the time and having jumps like this is weird and obviously plays bad.
10. 00:57:186 (7,1) - What are you trying to emphasize here?
11. 00:57:786 (3,4,5,6) - I really would like to see other kind of patterns here, apparently your intention to make it fun is great but the kind of flow you've used seems inappropiate and the cursormovement feels forced as well.
12. 00:58:586 (1,2) - Same as above.
13. 01:14:986 (1,2,3,4,5) - This is way too much for an extra difficulty, the amount of objects in a such a short time feels too dense in my opinion.

Best of luck.

rip rank

#2000 post ewe

Stop rushing the bubbles guys!

actually I didn't want to mod but it seems like this map needs some. :v

[Easy]
• In the beginning I can't really figure out your system of how ur whistles are placed. It definitely can't be that one "whoosh" sound because it would make the hitsounding inconsistent except you wanted it to be lol.
• 00:48:186 (2) - Why didn't you place this slider on the previous red tick for the vocals? You used 1/2 in the kiai too, so this would be a great transition if you ask me.
• 01:09:386 (3) - Shouldn't there be a clap on the sliderhead? Seems inconsistent otherwise.

[Normal]
• 00:10:386 (5) - Not really satisfying that the downbeat which has a prominent sound on it is not clickable.
• 01:17:386 (1,1) - ^ and especially here you can't use an excuse because there's no reason at all to ignore it.

[Advanced]
• 00:24:186 (6) - A kickslider in an Advanced? It's already meh to use them in a Hard.
• 00:35:786 (3,4,5) - Not really a problem, but why would you use a custom stack so randomly?

Hard is fine, but I really don't know what to say about the spacing in Insane. For that difficulty it seems way too much sometimes.

Glancing through the map, I have to withdraw it from the qualified pool for now. Please reply properly to the above suggestions and good luck with requalification.

Ok. Will take a look later.

Hula wrote:

Stop rushing the bubbles guys!

We don't. Actually I looked at Gero and Stjpa suggestions and kinda agree on 2-3 max of them. To me the map was fine and play fine too, so we can't call that a "rush" :/

If you scrutinize hard enough, you can comment/suggest changes on any map. There's no sense in spiting the BN's involved, because objectively there is nothing wrong. Subjectively, people can always disagree and that's perfectly fine. These disagreements have nothing to do with BN's rushing their decision to icon/qualify this set.

Good luck with ranking. Imo, it's only rushed if obvious unrankable issues are overlooked, like unused hitsounds etc... which doesn't seem to be the case here.

Hello again, I'll start by responding to the concerns that were raised and hopefully we can get to an agreement about the state of this map.

Gero wrote:

Hello, congratulations for get this mapset qualified but there are some things that concern me a lot and for obvious reasons could be improved.

DiFf_(k)NAME

1. 00:01:586 (1,1,1,1) - These kind of patterns look good and are awesome if they fit, but this is not the case here. In this song the music and the voice at the beginning sound consistent and there technically is no change in the music. I would like to recommend you to do something different instead. That's just wrong, the background sound is being increased in volume, the vocals become more intense, I am trying to understand why you would say something like that. I like that, it fits, it plays well, it looks well, so I can't really agree on that.
2. 00:05:586 - 00:10:586 - The whole section is quite weird itself, due to that there are some beats that were completely ignored so it can be somehow difficult to understand and to play play also these changes of speeds doesn't helps at all neither. It's not complicated at all. Did you even try playing it? Lett me start with the SV changes: 00:08:586 (8) - Done to make the reverse arrow more visible, it has no impact on the gameplay, at all. 00:08:986 (1) - Returning to the original SV before this change. 00:09:586 (1) - Slight increase to make a transition into the next section, since 0.5 -> 1.5 is quite huge, reducing the gap helps. As for the section itself, I can't follow everything, it sounds awful, takes emphasization from vocals, too dense and more stuff, present rhythms are well thought and placed, if you had any suggestion for improvement, I'd like to hear that.
3. 00:29:786 (1,2) - Could you explain to me why you've used a spacing lower at this section in compared to the rest that is technically the same kind of rhythm and that you've added jumps there? Valid concern. But, the patterns in this section use mostly the same rhythm and similar pattern structure, I am not using the same spacing all over this section, it makes it unnecessarily boring. Perhaps it looks a bit odd in the editor, but I can assure you that the whole section plays really well, this specific pattern does not stand out. I'll elaborate a bit more on the spacing anyway - it is quite similar to 00:28:186 (1,2,3) - in that manner, the pattern looks different, but it is spaced the same, giving emphasization to the last slider, if it's such a huge concern I might change it, but it doesn't really matter in my opinion.
4. 00:10:586 (1,1) - The pitch in both sections feels almost the same. The only difference is the sound finish at the background but the voice seems like the same, so a change of speed in this part makes no sense at all. Please, try putting a bit more thought, it's clearly obvious for everyone. 00:10:586 (1) - The sound here is unexpected, giving it huge SV allows the momentum of the surprise to be actually played, at first I wanted to extend 00:10:386 (3) - just to follow the vocals, but it was awful, so I had to follow this note, even though it disturbs the vocals, hence the surprise. 00:10:786 (1) - There's nothing new on the sliderhead, some weird sound started playing but the intensity from the previous slider is gone, reducing the SV is just appropriate, but I ended up making this whole section gimmicky and fun, and it makes sense too.
5. 00:32:786 (7,1,2) - I really don't understand the point of the constantly mapped into a double BPM and then go back to typical 1/2 rhythm? actually this could be even more confused due that the previous object is 1/4 and then swap it into 1/2 is difficult to read anyways I'm quite sure that most of the players will be confused or probably will fail that part so I would suggest you remap the whole pattern by anything else. It is done because the rhythm changes, unlike the previous patterns, there are no vocals at 00:32:986 (1) -, meaning I can't use the same pattern there, anyway there isn't any point of having 00:32:786 (7) - as a 1/4 slider because of the sudden shift to a single 1/2, it just plays odd, I did try it before and it did not work at all. No players got confused here, they aren't supposed to predict how the song plays, but read it and react accordingly, how are you so sure they will fail?
6. 01:03:786 (1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,1) - The same thing happens here, just that in this part it is a bit different - but I guess you get the idea. I don't, we are not in the kiai anymore this is an intersection between both kiai sections, mapping any 1/4 on those 01:03:786 (1,2,3) - is just wrong, nothing supports it, and it takes away the intensity and impact of the next stream.
7. 00:40:386 (2) - This SV makes no sense, the vocal is not that much lower to do something like this. Yeah, this is gimmicky, might a bit hard to understand it immediately. I had explained this whole section before in some comment that I can't seem to find, so I'll just explain again. 00:37:786 (1) - till 00:47:386 (1) - is a section that can get cut to 3 sections, the first two are quite similar, vocal intensity is medium+- and it doesn't really change much, therefore they are mirroring each other, the thitd section is irrelevant in this explanation so I'll cut to the mentioned slider - because the sections are mirrored, the last and first notes of the first and second sections respectively are identical, I wanted to make something that allows the player to actually sense the cut between the sections, the slow reverse slider does it in a nice fashion, both time the head hits it's on a vocal and the slider doesn't put any pressure at all as he plays a mere transition into the upcoming section (I use this word a lot don't I)
8. 00:43:286 - How about to add something clickable here? There are some sounds that are quite noticeable. It's not that noticeable in my opinion, but it does exist. I did follow this note on Insane but not here, my claim behind this is because I want the mirroring pattern to be kinda perfect, the triplet wouldn't work if a sliderend is a part of it, it's just odd. Yeah this might not be the best explanation, but I simply wish to undermap it.
9. 00:51:186 (1,2,3,4,5) - Overall it's not that bad but I'm pretty sure that this could be more polished, try to make it consistent. I am lost on this one, what do you mean by making it more consistent? Spacing is increasing, creating a triangle that builds itself from inside, what's wrong here?
10. 00:56:386 (1,2,5) - I think these kind of jumps are quite inconsistent because the background sound seems like the same all the time and having jumps like this is weird and obviously plays bad. Listen to the violin, I tried following the drums too but as the strongest drums land on the blue ticks it's quite hard, the violin supports this pattern really well, nothing I can add here. But I wonder, how did you conclude that it plays bad? I don't really like this judgement.
11. 00:57:186 (7,1) - What are you trying to emphasize here? Last violin note, it's held and placing it this way makes the whole pattern consistent, along with some buildup to the upcoming vocals.
12. 00:57:786 (3,4,5,6) - I really would like to see other kind of patterns here, apparently your intention to make it fun is great but the kind of flow you've used seems inappropiate and the cursormovement feels forced as well. Hm, it can be improved indeed, changed.
13. 00:58:586 (1,2) - Same as above. That's actually just fine, a bit forceful yeah, but the drums supports it regardless, it's cool.
14. 01:14:986 (1,2,3,4,5) - This is way too much for an extra difficulty, the amount of objects in a such a short time feels too dense in my opinion. Egh.. what? It's literally a 1/4 stream, the whole song is as dense as this.

Best of luck.

Stjpa wrote:

actually I didn't want to mod but it seems like this map needs some. :v

[Easy]
• In the beginning I can't really figure out your system of how ur whistles are placed. It definitely can't be that one "whoosh" sound because it would make the hitsounding inconsistent except you wanted it to be lol. They were copied from the highest diff, but because it is not as dense as the other one the hitsounds are different, fixed it up a bit.
• 00:48:186 (2) - Why didn't you place this slider on the previous red tick for the vocals? You used 1/2 in the kiai too, so this would be a great transition if you ask me. I definitely agree, it's much better.
• 01:09:386 (3) - Shouldn't there be a clap on the sliderhead? Seems inconsistent otherwise. Claps are on redtick, so nope.

[Normal]
• 00:10:386 (5) - Not really satisfying that the downbeat which has a prominent sound on it is not clickable. It's fine, main focus is the vocals, and the halt after the downbeat creates a nice effect with the sliderend.
• 01:17:386 (1,1) - ^ and especially here you can't use an excuse because there's no reason at all to ignore it. There is, vocals. Same happens on advanced but you haven't said anything.

[Advanced]
• 00:24:186 (6) - A kickslider in an Advanced? It's already meh to use them in a Hard. It's pretty good with the violin, what's wrong?
• 00:35:786 (3,4,5) - Not really a problem, but why would you use a custom stack so randomly? It was stacked normally before, however someone suggested I do this to avoid overlapping with 00:35:186 (2) - because of the stack leniency.

Hard is fine, but I really don't know what to say about the spacing in Insane. For that difficulty it seems way too much sometimes.

First of all, I thank you both for your time you took to help and improve this set.

Now, as for the set and the disqualification themselves, the whole situation is just disrespectful, and not for me, but for Nozhomi and Kibbleru (and the many other people who helped me and mod this map), whom spent a lot of time looking through the set several times. Yes, this is not your regular extra difficulty. Yes, I am known for not being a consistent mapper. Yes, my maps are not for everyone. Yet, I did gather many opinions, from both mappers and players. I fixed inconsistencies to be more respectful to the RC. I am trying to make everyone happy while keeping my vision in tact (which obviously is almost impossible to achieve, but still).

I do not want to offend anyone, but at this point, after the Extra difficulty was checked by many eyes, you can't just judge it without playing it properly, the patterns were placed with lots of thoughts, ideas, improvements. Some may look weird on paper (the editor) but they end up playing really well while making sense, I almost never place notes randomly, I enjoy thinking about connections and then applying them. Sometimes they end extremely fun and great, and sometimes they are not that good, when that happens I obviosuly try to improve / change it by myself or by other's opinions.

As Monstrata mentioned above, "If you scrutinize hard enough, you can comment/suggest changes on any map". You can always suggest stuff on people's maps, mainly because mapping can be done in many ways, some are bad, some are not, some are likeable by certain people and some are not. If you wish to understand my thoughts behind this set, you can just PM me and I'll gladly explain, but don't be disrespectful towards the work done by me, the modders and the other BNs.

Avishay wrote:

you can't just judge it without playing it properly

First wrong point, with experience you can judge mostly any kind of map.

Avishay wrote:

you can just PM me and I'll gladly explain, but don't be disrespectful towards the work done by me, the modders and the other BNs.

Disrespectful? for posting their concerns about your map during Qualified period? qualified period is supposed to be the time where your map get criticism from the community, the one being disrespectful is you, by discouraging people from checking qualify maps, is true that Hula was a bit rude, but take a more deep look to Gero mod, I think you can still improve your map with it.

anyways GL with this

Natsu wrote:

Avishay wrote:

you can't just judge it without playing it properly

First wrong point, with experience you can judge mostly any kind of map.

Avishay wrote:

you can just PM me and I'll gladly explain, but don't be disrespectful towards the work done by me, the modders and the other BNs.

Disrespectful? for posting their concerns about your map during Qualified period? qualified period is supposed to be the time where your map get criticism from the community, the one being disrespectful is you, by discouraging people from checking qualify maps, is true that Hula was a bit rude, but take a more deep look to Gero mod, I thn you could still improve your map with it.

anyways GL with this

My opinion differs from yours, as long as this is not a traditional map, you still may interpret it in a bad way, even if you are experienced.

It is disrespectful because when you say "obviously plays bad" while you most likely didn't even play it properly. I am open for criticism but when it's done in such manner it's infuriating.

Is a really normal map, it doesn't have nothing special apart of the comboing in 00:49:186 (1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1) - and a lot of inconsistencies (even i have a similar map in graveyard and did icon a few), double bpm mapping isn't new, then again you suppose he didn't play the map, even tho I saw him testing it alot, that's why supposing stuff is bad, specially in a normal map which isn't hard to play at all. Anyways maybe I'll take a look as well after sleep a bit.

Even if he did, (and again, sorry for being rude) I can't expect him to play it well on his skill level. Yeah it's double bpm but it's a really small minority, the NCs are irrelevant.

Please note that I am not mad, I did not decline most of Gero's mod because of saltiness, those are my honest thoughts.

Natsu wrote:

qualified period is supposed to be the time where your map get criticism from the community

I really didn't want to post in this map thread because I feel like the highest diff's basic concept is sound but could do with large swaths of remapping entirely to pin down the concept (right now with everyone pointing out minor flaws and errors you end up with a patchwerk mess, better to remap with so many bandaids being forced onto it)

but


what the f*** is that supposed to mean?

I thought qualification was supposed to be about QAT checking to make sure maps are error free in the sense that anything clearly looked over (missing hitsounds, wrong snaps, unrankability, etc)

not about having "the community" (which almost always consists of the same handful of people) point out personal judgements on a person's mapping style.


This is just an example, but if you, a modder, were to say "These kind of patterns look good and are awesome if they fit, but this is not the case here. In this song the music and the voice at the beginning sound consistent and there technically is no change in the music. I would like to recommend you to do something different instead." and the mapper were to respond "the volume itself is increasing and thus the spacing and slider speeds are" then that's all that's necessary.


I'm tired of people throwing pointless walls of text to make their posts look big and scary during qualification. It's underhanded and disgusting. Stick to any actual, valid concerns about the rankability of certain patterns. If you think the flow is shit, if you don't like how it plays, go somewhere else. There are hundreds of other maps in pending that could do with that sort of modding. Keep it out of qualification. If it's good enough for a handful of other BNs, then it's good enough for ranking - whether you personally like it or not.

Posting your opinion here about the post-qualification mods won't change anything. The system allows people who test the map to judge from their experience what flows bad or what patterns create misleading rhythms. Remember ranking maps now isn't a group of people who know how to make maps and discuss what should be good or bad; nowadays everyone can participate and improve the quality of any map. Even after it was checked by x numbers of modders and BNs.

Shiirn wrote:

Natsu wrote:

qualified period is supposed to be the time where your map get criticism from the community

I really didn't want to post in this map thread because I feel like the highest diff's basic concept is sound but could do with large swaths of remapping entirely to pin down the concept (right now with everyone pointing out minor flaws and errors you end up with a patchwerk mess, better to remap with so many bandaids being forced onto it)

but


what the f*** is that supposed to mean?

I thought qualification was supposed to be about QAT checking to make sure maps are error free in the sense that anything clearly looked over (missing hitsounds, wrong snaps, unrankability, etc)

not about having "the community" (which almost always consists of the same handful of people) point out personal judgements on a person's mapping style.


This is just an example, but if you, a modder, were to say "These kind of patterns look good and are awesome if they fit, but this is not the case here. In this song the music and the voice at the beginning sound consistent and there technically is no change in the music. I would like to recommend you to do something different instead." and the mapper were to respond "the volume itself is increasing and thus the spacing and slider speeds are" then that's all that's necessary.


I'm tired of people throwing pointless walls of text to make their posts look big and scary during qualification. It's underhanded and disgusting. Stick to any actual, valid concerns about the rankability of certain patterns. If you think the flow is shit, if you don't like how it plays, go somewhere else. There are hundreds of other maps in pending that could do with that sort of modding. Keep it out of qualification. If it's good enough for a handful of other BNs, then it's good enough for ranking - whether you personally like it or not.

Unfortunately, this is how the ranking/disqualifying system works now . Previously, QAT's received a lot of heat from the mapping/modding community because of subjective disqualifications. I guess you weren't around during the time of the QAT Bot and stuff, but yea. We used to get disqualifications because certain sections in a map didn't receive adequate hitsounding. There were also dq's for combo colors blending with the background/storyboard/video too much, OD 6 being too low on an Insane, HP 3 being too high on Easy, and just general dq's for very very subjective stuff. It's just how the process is nowadays, since if you notice, QAT's dq almost exclusively for objective'y unrankable issues (concurrent red/green lines, offscreen sliders, incorrect metadata etc...). The process now relies on the community to point out stuff they believe require further modding.

If you want to maintain a quality standard above "rankable" then this is the process nowadays. The only QAT who currently dq's for anything outside of metadata/automod/aibat is Irre (and sometimes Millhi on really difficult maps). So yea, if you want to help maintain quality standards, this is currently the only way to help out since there's a clear lack of QAT presence.

The clear lack of QAT presence is obvious. The problem is the fact that you end up with BNs disagreeing and relatively random community members being given the same level of input capabilities as QAT. Quality standards are subjective past a certain point. Where do we drawn the line? An entire section has no hitsounds because default don't work that well? Quality-wise better get some customs. But what if I don't like a pattern because it plays poorly? Is having a pattern that plays poorly but fits the music unrankable? Is having a pattern that plays well but ignores the music rankable? Where is the line drawn as to who can say what is or isn't rankable? This is what BNs (and any living QATs) should be thinking about.

Clearly the map is fine for Kibbleru and Nozhomi, and yes they're new BNs, but clearly Gero and Natsu disagree. I understand the sentiment that both Gero and Natsu are more experienced, but they're also both very narrow-minded as to what they require in a map to consider it rankable.

I guess it boils down to the fact that modding sucks right now and the few people trying are stressed from having too much to do and too little motivation to do it because there's just more work after work is done with no end in sight.

But maybe there'd be less work if ya'll actually worked together instead of working against each other over disagreements over the map. Reach common ground. Why are you (general you, the reader, not Monstrata) modding? What are the standards you want to follow when modding or ranking a map? What kind of knowledge or experience are you trying to impart when you make suggestions or comments? The hardest thing in modding is realizing when you're pushing your own values onto a mapper, and whether those values are wanted.

That said, DQ for discussion is bullshit and I know anyone with an ounce of sense agrees there.

We do need someone to set down the line, hopefully my reasonings were clear enough for Kwan or anyone that reads this thread for that matter.

edited to discuss in proper place

An update - I will remap some parts of the highest difficulties, while trying to keep myself and everyone else satisfied.

Overall quality is a rankablity issue, it will continue to be a rankablity issue and this will not change!
There is no NEED for QAT for make some final call if the initial fixes are made and the stuff that kept the map from going though is fixed. Remember this thing was already qualified once! There is no need to comb over it for every single detail. I personally think the last diff is a mess and I would suggest a remap. That being said, the only thing I DQ'ed for what the massive amount of inconsistent spacing.
These issues were addressed and adjusted. If the BN feel that it wasn't adjusted to fit the standards then so be it. But do not attack others or there views. Just kindly tell them yes or no and explain it. You are a BN you should ESPECIALLY know this as you are a BN, this behaviour is not acceptable. This can be considered a final warning. This stuff doesn't fly and if this keeps being an issue, I will get more involved in not in a great way.
JUST CHILL AND TALK IT OVER.

I'm pretty sure I did comment on everything as calmly as possible?

Regardless, I'll try to do something else on the Extra diff, stay tuned.

Just saying, this might take a while, making this a 150bpm singletapping diff would just make it incredibly difficult, if the spacing is big, it's really fast to aim and press, if the spacing is close then it's just incredibly hard to read, I started the Extra as a new difficulty and am just starting over, I'm gonna update it as a regular diff so please take a look if you wish, and complaints / suggestsions / whatever you can either post here or pm me in game or at the forums thanks.

Oh, obviously it's experimental and nothing is set in stone, I might just ignore the drums at point and map to other instuments as their presence is much different.

AAND, I might just remap sections of the current diff if I am simply lost.

ztrot wrote:

Overall quality is a rankablity issue, it will continue to be a rankablity issue

THIS

i think at this point it'd be better calling gero to icon this map since they're the ones who seems to have problems with it.

if nozhomi or i bubbled it, we already think its fine so it might just lead to another dq lol

I am doubtful they'll oblige.

h o t sexY map

in my opinion, it's a nice map and the highest diff is wonderful, there is no need to remap.