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Does ar10 require good monitor and high FPS?

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Clappy
373 posts
Joined May 2013
Clappy

jesse1412 wrote:

I got a 144hz, it's placebo with the added effect of looking a bit smoother. People seem to believe "smoother" is easier somehow.
We can get into a debate about what the eye can see (l0l 30fps is all you n33d h4h4 stupid pc gamer wasting money on 144hz when their 3y3s cant s33 it h4h4). Skip the bullshit and tell me the perceived clarity of motion does not make it easier to react to a patterns at higher ar's? Perfect example, I was shit at reading triples at anything higher than ar9 pre144hz monitor. Post144hz monitor, I can magically react to it? If you were able to read higher ar's without 144hz than good for you, you were either genetically hardwired for osu or worked harder than most to learn higher ar's at 60hz.

Now lets throw some hypotheticals, it is damn-near impossible for you to lose a skill like this (osu!) without severe brain trauma. But, if you did succumb to such trauma (god forbid) would you take the trip to mastering osu again with 60hz or 144hz? They exist for a reason, it is not just some big ass marketing scheme.

Companies like ASUS, BenQ, AOC, and Phillips are cashing in big time on placebo? Or (more likely) the perceived clarity of motion that higher refresh rates have to offer.
Last edited by Clappy , edited 1 time in total.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
I would play osu again at 60hz because it means I can deal with any hz 60+ but if I started again with 144 it means it would be harder if I ever had to go back down
Clappy
373 posts
Joined May 2013
Clappy

Khelly wrote:

I would play osu again at 60hz because it means I can deal with any hz 60+ but if I started again with 144 it means it would be harder if I ever had to go back down
In spite of any financial hardships you may ever face in your life (once again, god forbid) what situation would cause you to not game at a higher refresh rate? Entertain my mind with a single one.
_handholding
3,109 posts
Joined April 2014
_handholding

chainpullz wrote:

Kids these days just don't understand that struggling is an important part of the learning process
OK DAD
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

Clappy wrote:

Khelly wrote:

I would play osu again at 60hz because it means I can deal with any hz 60+ but if I started again with 144 it means it would be harder if I ever had to go back down
In spite of any financial hardships you may ever face in your life (once again, god forbid) what situation would cause you to not game at a higher refresh rate? Entertain my mind with a single one.
Not having any available 144hz monitor to use. 8-)

Not wanting to spend the money to acquire said 144hz because 60hz doesn't hinder my performance in the relevant AR's I play and I can spend the leftover money on onaholes and dakimakuras.
Clappy
373 posts
Joined May 2013
Clappy

Khelly wrote:

Not having any available 144hz monitor to use. 8-)

Not wanting to spend the money to acquire said 144hz because 60hz doesn't hinder my performance in the relevant AR's I play and I can spend the leftover money on onaholes and dakimakuras.
That's like saying, if I got use to playing with that ice cream cone, it could hinder my performance if I ever played without it. **Few moments later** Ice cream cone? Man I could spend my money to jack off with plastic, I dont need that shit.

Which means you will never have the ice cream (144hz) to get use to and hinder your performance if you develop a necessity for it in the first place. Want to throw another situation?
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
What are you trying to say when you use ice cream cone as an analogy? It doesn't make sense to me unless you're trying to say 144hz doesn't matter in which case might as well go for 60hz because it doesn't matter.

So I can have either minimal increase in percieved smoothness from switching to 144hz or the same thing I use now at 60hz which is perfectly acceptable for what I do. The opportunity cost of not being able to go back to 60hz from 144hz is too high for such little benefit. I can also spend the money on something else.
Last edited by Yuudachi-kun , edited 1 time in total.
Clappy
373 posts
Joined May 2013
Clappy

Khelly wrote:

What are you trying to say when you use ice cream cone as an analogy? It doesn't make sense to me unless you're trying to say 144hz doesn't matter in which case might as well go for 60hz because it doesn't matter.

So I can have either minimal increase in percieved smoothness from switching to 144hz or the same thing I use now at 60hz which is perfectly acceptable for what I do. The opportunity cost of not being able to go back to 60hz from 144hz is too high. I can also spend the money on something else.
If it doesn't matter, then how do you foresee yourself developing a necessity for it? Man I really can't live without my appendix...

SPOILER
you can

And to comment on your "minimal" increase in perceived smoothness, take a look at this. http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Elec ... 1292115011

The 11th most sold monitor on amazon is the ASUS 144hz one, and thats out of the ENTIRE sample size of people that purchase monitors on Amazon.com, it's definitely a minimal increase if it can top charts out of the ENTIRE Amazon customer base.
Last edited by Clappy , edited 3 times in total.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

Clappy wrote:

If it doesn't matter, then how do you foresee yourself developing a necessity for it? Man I really can't live without my appendix...

SPOILER
you can
The same way some people can only play ar10 and not lower ar's. Except in this case if I want to use a 144hz monitor I don't change down to lower hz's randomly as I play.
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii
I'm not sure if this can be considered relevant, but I play by tracking my cursor visually, which worked fine on my old CRT (which I pushed to 150Hz for most of its osu! life). And I couldn't even dream of playing like this on a 60Hz (although that's because my muscle memory is complete shit). It's almost to the point where I feel as if I'm playing blind.

I made my 75Hz LCD my primary monitor for almost a week when my old CRT bit the dust, and that was enough for me to completely give up on playing until finding a new monitor to play on. At least I was lucky enough to quickly find a 144Hz-capable CRT that some guy was giving away for free.
Clappy
373 posts
Joined May 2013
Clappy

Khelly wrote:

Clappy wrote:

If it doesn't matter, then how do you foresee yourself developing a necessity for it? Man I really can't live without my appendix...

SPOILER
you can
The same way some people can only play ar10 and not lower ar's. Except in this case if I want to use a 144hz monitor I don't change down to lower hz's randomly as I play.
That's comparing apples to oranges. A high AR dependence stems from only playing higher ar's and for the most part you're right, they can't play maps because they lack the reading ability and the connotation with it is generally negative. A higher refresh rate dependence stems from your eye being trained to see increased motion clarity (connotation: positive). Which would suggest it would matter and until you've actually experienced it first hand, you really can't say it doesn't matter or not.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
I was saying I don't understand your ice cream cone example and it only makes sense to me if YOU'RE saying it doesn't matter.
Clappy
373 posts
Joined May 2013
Clappy

Khelly wrote:

I was saying I don't understand your ice cream cone example and it only makes sense to me if YOU'RE saying it doesn't matter.
I finished that example with a nice summary to show your flawed logic. You can't develop a dependency on something you will never have. A crackhead doesn't become a crackhead until they've tapped into those white rocks. If you know a way to become a crackhead without crack (which is what your situation implied) please tell me.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

Clappy wrote:

Khelly wrote:

I was saying I don't understand your ice cream cone example and it only makes sense to me if YOU'RE saying it doesn't matter.
I finished that example with a nice summary to show your flawed logic. You can't develop a dependency on something you will never have. A crackhead doesn't become a crackhead until they've tapped into those white rocks. If you know a way to become a crackhead without crack (which is what your situation implied) please tell me.
You can't develop a dependency on something you will never have - that's the exact reason why I wouldn't want to play 144hz until that becomes some kind of standard for most monitors.

The way you're saying it is to imply that you should try something that will obviously lead to a dependency because they won't have that dependency unless they try.
Clappy
373 posts
Joined May 2013
Clappy

Khelly wrote:

You can't develop a dependency on something you will never have - that's the exact reason why I wouldn't want to play 144hz until that becomes some kind of standard for most monitors.

The way you're saying it is to imply that you should try something that will obviously lead to a dependency because they won't have that dependency unless they try.
Ok perfect, I'll take that. I'm leading you to the crack. But, you're afraid to try something that doesn't matter? Or does it matter. But, there are first hand, second hand, and third hand examples (forums, reviews, friends, people that actually have the product) that the disparity in motion clarity is not minimal. It is actually night and day, ergo it matters? Can you give me that? I do not lead people to crack that does not matter.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

Khelly wrote:

I was saying I don't understand your ice cream cone example and it only makes sense to me if YOU'RE saying it doesn't matter.
Can you re-read this for me when you try to argue against "my" statement of "it doesn't matter"
Clappy
373 posts
Joined May 2013
Clappy

Khelly wrote:

Not wanting to spend the money to acquire said 144hz because 60hz doesn't hinder my performance in the relevant AR's I play and I can spend the leftover money on onaholes and dakimakuras.
The underlying theme here, it does not matter. Closer to the beginning of our arguement.

Khelly wrote:

The same way some people can only play ar10 and not lower ar's. Except in this case if I want to use a 144hz monitor I don't change down to lower hz's randomly as I play.
The underlying theme here, it does not matter. Yet, saying that you will develop a need for 144hz because the motion clarity is too great to ever look back. Ergo it matters.

Khelly wrote:

I was saying I don't understand your ice cream cone example and it only makes sense to me if YOU'RE saying it doesn't matter.
Here is where you abandoned your original argument and began stating that I implied it doesn't matter because I used an "ice cream cone" analogy to a highly illogical statement you provided.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
I'd rather start at 60hz than 144hz because 60hz is more readily available, playing 144hz will necessarily make playing 60hz a worse experience for me once I get used to it, I can already play what I need at 60hz making 144hz not a necessity, and the cost of 144hz monitor over 60hz outweighs the benefits.

Then you come up with some ice cream cone example that doesn't make sense to me unless you're trying to say 144hz and 60hz doesn't matter so just play 144hz. Then you're trying to pressure me or some shit like I said it doesn't matter when that's simply the way I interpreted your analogy.
_handholding
3,109 posts
Joined April 2014
_handholding
stop rage
plz enjoy game
Clappy
373 posts
Joined May 2013
Clappy

Khelly wrote:

I can already play what I need at 60hz making 144hz not a necessity
Here we go with the illogical statements again

1) If you've never experienced your osu! performance without crack how can you say it's not a necessity.
2) There are cases (several, infact) against your statement that 144hz is not a necessity. Asus's VG248QE is the 11th most sold monitor out of ALL computer monitors. It is safe to assume only serious gamers are purchasing 144hz monitors right now, and we've pushed a 144hz monitor almost into the top 10 of computer monitor sales on Amazon, once again not a necessity, but you saying it does not matter and it will not help your performance is not a relevant statement and is highly illogical.
3) 60hz is more readily-available? 11th most sold monitor on amazon, a single 144hz monitor, not to mention there are many, many more? Highly illogical.
4) A standard 1080p monitor is approx $100 usd with respectable specs - 5ms response time or under. $150 dollars isn't worth for a glaring increase in motion clarity?

Not blowing smoke out my ass: http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Elec ... 1292115011

The Asus monitor is 11th on the rankings, how are you saying this?
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
It's not a necessity if it's not necessary to use to play the game. I and many others are playing the game without it. It's not a necessity.
Even in the case of ar 10 and 10.3, it's NOT a necessity by any means.

It will not help my performance to an amount that I feel is enough to justify ever going out and getting one.

So you're using one monitor in one place in one store to say that 60 hz isn't more readily available? It'd make sense if I said 144hz isn't readily available, but not that 60hz is.

That $50 can go to an onahole and that's worth it more to me than marginal benefits I would get from 144hz. (Actually $150 can get me an autoblow2 since my current monitor isn't broken)
dung eater
2,405 posts
Joined December 2013
dung eater
it does not

having those helps, how much it depends on how you play the game

biggest difference is cursor being less delayed and drawn more often for me, helps a ton
Clappy
373 posts
Joined May 2013
Clappy

Khelly wrote:

It's not a necessity if it's not necessary to use to play the game. I and many others are playing the game without it. It's not a necessity.
Even in the case of ar 10 and 10.3, it's NOT a necessity by any means.

It will not help my performance to an amount that I feel is enough to justify ever going out and getting one.

So you're using one monitor in one place in one store to say that 60 hz isn't more readily available? It'd make sense if I said 144hz isn't readily available, but not that 60hz is.

That $50 can go to an onahole and that's worth it more to me than marginal benefits I would get from 144hz. (Actually $150 can get me an autoblow2 since my current monitor isn't broken)
1) A Necessity it may not but it's certainly highly-recommended? Do you have a mechanical keyboard and tablet?

2) It will not help my performance to an amount that I feel is enough to justify ever going out and getting one. Do you have a mechanical keyboard and tablet? Speaking from what you think again

3) So you're using one monitor in one place in one store to say that 60 hz isn't more readily available? It'd make sense if I said 144hz isn't readily available, but not that 60hz is. I can't think of a single instance where 60hz is readily available to a point where it mattered. Most computer retailers sell 144hz monitors as well as 60hz: Walmart, Best Buy, even Gamestop.

4) That $150 can go to an onahole and that's worth it more to me than marginal benefits I would get from 144hz. Marginal? You're speaking from what you think and not what you know.
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
2) It will not help my performance to an amount that I feel is enough to justify ever going out and getting one. Do you have a mechanical keyboard and tablet?
Comparing 144hz monitor to tablet+keyboard ----> looking at HDHR (player) or Wilchq or any other top20 who play on 60hz ----> facepalming


144hz monitor isn't such a big difference for playability until you play high complex ar10.3/ar11. You can normaly get into pro skill level top10 with 60hz without even spending a single cent on upgrading your monitor.

Also CRT > LED all the way.
Last edited by -Makishima S- , edited 1 time in total.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

Clappy wrote:

But, if you did succumb to such trauma (god forbid) would you take the trip to mastering osu again with 60hz or 144hz? They exist for a reason, it is not just some big ass marketing scheme.

Now here's the original question I was answering as an aside to jesus and thus any reasons other than what I think are irrelevant. If you gave me a choice, I would choose 60hz unless you could give me a lifetime supply of 144.
Clappy
373 posts
Joined May 2013
Clappy

[Taiga] wrote:

2) It will not help my performance to an amount that I feel is enough to justify ever going out and getting one. Do you have a mechanical keyboard and tablet?
Comparing 144hz monitor to tablet+keyboard ----> looking at HDHR (player) or Wilchq or any other top20 who play on 60hz ----> facepalming
Take a sample of the top 100 player base on 60hz and compare to 144hz. If it does not matter ask your top players to play without 144hz. You're just blowing smoke. A 144hz monitor provides a much different visual signature than its 60hz counterpart and it is superhelpful. You're all saying its not necessity, by that same logic a tablet and keyboard isn't a necessity. Let's see a 60hz, walmart mouse-only player top 1000. There might be one, hell MAYBE two.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
None of these things are necessities. But I can tell you that I can't play with a mouse anymore.

Also a tablet/mouse isn't like a monitor in that it's literally the way you PLAY the game as opposed to how you see what's happening in it.


The 144hz monitor is not a necessity over 60hz in playing ar10 or 10.3 judging from the many people that have gotten good enough fcs on 60hz.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,404 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
No, git gud. Play hard.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

Stefan wrote:

No, git gud. Play hard.
ok
Clappy
373 posts
Joined May 2013
Clappy

[Taiga] wrote:

You can normaly get into pro skill level top10 with 60hz
Funny as hell that 7 of our top 10 players (pp wise) are using 144hz monitors.
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
Take a sample of the top 100 player base on 60hz and compare to 144hz. If it does not matter ask your top players to play without 144hz. You're just blowing smoke. A 144hz monitor provides a much different visual signature than its 60hz counterpart and it is superhelpful. You're all saying its not necessity, by that same logic a tablet and keyboard isn't a necessity. Let's see a 60hz, walmart mouse-only player top 1000. There might be one, hell MAYBE two.
Great amount of top100 players use 60hz.
WWW was making ar11 high acc FC on 60hz.
Wilchq reached top20 with rubberdome shitty keyboard, mouse and 60hz.
HDHR plays on both - mechanical and rubberdome depends on mood and 60hz.
Angelsim afaik uses 60hz.
_index made first 600pp score on 60hz (yes, he switched to 144 after this one when he finished crowdfounding for his treatment and new computer)
Bikko the HDHR acc god 60hz

How many more examples of notable amazing players you need to understand that 144hz isn't a big deal if you are skilled enough?
Clappy
373 posts
Joined May 2013
Clappy

Khelly wrote:

None of these things are necessities. But I can tell you that I can't play with a mouse anymore.

Also a tablet/mouse isn't like a monitor in that it's literally the way you PLAY the game as opposed to how you see what's happening in it.


The 144hz monitor is not a necessity over 60hz in playing ar10 or 10.3 judging from the many people that have gotten good enough fcs on 60hz.
You keep saying it's not a necessity, but what you see in the game can be HUGE factor in how you play the game.
But I see your point, there's tons of people that make the switch and say man this shit is garbage and return the monitor - wait there are none. Furthermore, you can't how you would perform on something you don't have. Hvick is a super outlier I'll give you that.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

Clappy wrote:

But I see your point, there's tons of people that make the switch and say man this shit is garbage and return the monitor - wait there are none.
Where did you even get this from?
Clappy
373 posts
Joined May 2013
Clappy

[Taiga] wrote:

Great amount of top100 players use 60hz.
WWW was making ar11 high acc FC on 60hz.
Wilchq reached top20 with rubberdome shitty keyboard, mouse and 60hz.
HDHR plays on both - mechanical and rubberdome depends on mood and 60hz.
Angelsim afaik uses 60hz.
_index made first 600pp score on 60hz (yes, he switched to 144 after this one when he finished crowdfounding for his treatment and new computer)
Bikko the HDHR acc god 60hz

How many more examples of notable amazing players you need to understand that 144hz isn't a big deal if you are skilled enough?
I see 6% (2 of these have since switched - so 4% currently) out of 100, www switch, index switched, jesus switched, cookie switched, there's arguments on both sides, but with 144hz becoming more the norm with each passing day. Kind of hard pressed to make me see your case as it was, seeing that high refresh rates will be the way of many very soon.
Clappy
373 posts
Joined May 2013
Clappy

Khelly wrote:

Clappy wrote:

But I see your point, there's tons of people that make the switch and say man this shit is garbage and return the monitor - wait there are none.
Where did you even get this from?
More of a common sense thing - the same way you keep saying you'd perform exactly the same on 144hz opposed to 60hz. However, I'm inclined to say that my suggestion makes a lot more sense seeing as people progress in skill with higher refresh rates, as opposed to returning their 144hz monitor.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
Actually I keep saying that 60hz is enough for my needs and that I have no need to switch to 144hz except to have 144hz because the benefits won't be as huge as you seem to claim.
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
I see 6% (2 of these have since switched - so 4% currently) out of 100, www switch, index switched, jesus switched, cookie switched, there's arguments on both sides, but with 144hz becoming more the norm with each passing day. Kind of hard pressed to make me see your case as it was, seeing that high refresh rates will be the way of many very soon.
No it will not for one particular reason: money vs what it gives. 144hz is nothing in great amount of games, not mention you don't use 144 in office work at all. There are single titles what benefits from it and honestly, in every single one there will be people proving their superiority with 60hz over players with 144hz. Deal with this. 144 buying people who have money for this just for their experience. Normaly you don't need it at all to be a pro player and that i already proved.

AR11 don't require 144hz at all - WWW proved this, EP proved this, hvick proved this.
Last edited by -Makishima S- , edited 1 time in total.
Clappy
373 posts
Joined May 2013
Clappy

Khelly wrote:

I have no need to switch to 144hz except to have 144hz because the benefits won't be as huge as you seem to claim.

Khelly wrote:

Where did you even get this from?
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

Clappy wrote:

Khelly wrote:

I have no need to switch to 144hz except to have 144hz because the benefits won't be as huge as you seem to claim.

Khelly wrote:

Where did you even get this from?
So what does this have to do with returning the monitor because it's trash? It has to do with not switching in the first place. I even said I'd take it if you give me a lifetime supply of 144hz for free though.
Clappy
373 posts
Joined May 2013
Clappy

[Taiga] wrote:

No it will not for one particular reason: money vs what it gives. 144hz is nothing in great amount of games, not mention you don't use 144 in office work at all. There are single titles what benefits from it and honestly, in every single one there will be people proving their superiority with 60hz over players with 144hz. Deal with this. 144 buying people who have money for this just for their experience. Normaly you don't need it at all to be a pro player and that i already proved.

AR11 don't require 144hz at all - WWW proved this, EP proved this, hvick proved this.
It's like saying man, tablets aren't necessity when the vast majority of the osu! community uses them. You can be pro without yes, you have proved that, but what are the chances of you being hvick or www? Especially since our better players are switching them anyways? If they don't need them why fix what aint broke and get a 144hz anyways?
In League of Legends LCS, the monitors they use are the Asus VG248QE.
In CS they use 144hz monitor or some variant + interpoling that gives 240hz.
Do you play osu in an office?
Higher refresh monitors, in a gaming enviroment, are always a plus and you're only gimping yourself and what you may achieve without them. You're not pro on 60hz but damn hvick and EP are. 2 out of many fish in the sea?
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