So I felt like I wanted to get the general consensus on what the thoughts of separate PP and key mode debate are. Ignoring what Peppy or anyone else in the community has to say about what are your personal feelings. Now Peppy claims he doesn't want to have separate keys and leader boards for those key modes.

"Why not ranking boards for each country for each key number for each unique mod combination for each state in each country for each period since the last lunar eclipse." - Peppy.

Man look at those entitled mania players wanting a accurate PP system. Now as far as a compromise that I thought of was grouping the most similar key modes together.

4K + 6K

5K +7k + 8K + 9K

Each game modes have there own style but in general these tend to be the most similar. Most 4 Key players can play 6 key to some extent and most 7 key players can play at least 5k and 7k+1.

The main reason why of thought to bring this up is due to a recent question on tom94's ask.fm. It had stated he has considered this issue. So that leaves me with a few questions. Tom often says peppy calls the shots so was this a case of that or, was Peppy just putting up a front instead of explaining a larger issue? Now if I had to guess I feel this is a product of Peppy not wanting this game to feel too mania centric. He wants to push his osu brand this isn't a mania game, this is casual rhythm game for all. Perhaps he feels having different leader boards for each key mode would turn off new potential players as they might see it as too difficult to figure out.

This informative post will be deleted anyway, just move along

Rori Vidi Veni wrote:

1) If you're playing for ranking, you're missing the point. "pls enjoy game" isn't limited to standard mode.

2) I don't think grouping plays by keycount would help anything without fixing pp. And don't ask me how to fix it, because I'm not interested in it in the first place.

3) I unironically liked peppy's idea of lunar cycle ranking, until I realized that's more or less monthly charts and remembered how good they work in here.

1) I'm not playing for ranking I'm playing to get better and I would like a system that accurately depicts that if there is going to be a system in the first place. And of course because I enjoy VSRGs.

2) The main modes are 7 key and 4 Key. Splitting them would create a more accurate system without needing to worry about fixing PP for mania as a whole which is a separate issue.

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from the pattern of, 5k is more like 4k fast and messy in my Opinion they should do 4,5,6 and 7,8,9 but its an old story and it will never happen xD

Redon wrote:

I wouldn't want completely separate leaderboards for key modes, but if it was possible to filter pp of the general leaderboard (and perhaps rank too) by key mode, that would be nice.

There is a subtle difference.

It sounds like you just wanna keep your PP and rank when you clearly are a example of someone who benefits from the current system upon looking at your plays. Your nowhere near as good as like a staiain and yet your rank is the same nor are you as good as a super TOP level 7 key player, Not trying to be a dick just point out the systems flaws. Your way better then most players clearly but, this doesn't take away from the fact that your pp is padded by meh 4 key plays at least in comparison to top 4k players.

You really shouldn't come in here making a suggestion, and then go guns blazing on people who respond to you. Saying "not trying to be a dick" doesn't make you any less of one.

As far as contributing to this thread, I will say that I am in agreement with performance points/leaderboards being separated. However, it's not even for the purpose of ranking at all -- I could care less what my performance points say, my ranks will speak for themselves. A proper separation of performance points for different key modes could be beneficial for the community as a whole, because there will be more accurate placement of players in user-held tournaments. It's a well known fact that some of the 4K-only players who are sitting with their substantially lower performance point counts can hang with some of the players that have 4K/7K that utilize both modes to get 9,000-10,000 performance point area, and that can cause some interesting results in seeding/brackets that are done simply by performance points (admittedly speaking with ignorance there, but I figured that some tournaments might place people like that).

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Alright just to point out I wasn't trying to attack anyone. I suppose using someone as an example within this thread wasn't a great Idea, but it was to help illustrate my point. I understand the PP is broken and Tom94 knows but they haven't made any effort to make it any better, I know coding is a hard thing but consider this Within a short several month period 2 people made a pretty accurate skill-based ranking system for stepmania (prior to a particular incident) meanwhile tom94 and the osu staff hasn't done much of anything. Now I imagine doing more then 1 Key mode is hard but this system goes as far as to take into account specific patterns, and types of maps, and all this was done in a short time frame. This is the primary reason I suggest a separation in PP and key mode because osu staff doesn't seem to be in any haste. This has been a issue since the gamemodes inception. Sorry, If my typing sounds aggressive because that isn't what I intend. Also, another thing this is intended to be a debate/discussion so obviously I'm going to respond to people if I feel like I have something to say.

I think that there should at least be a 4K-only leaderboard, if only to benefit the 4K World Cup. When watching the 4K cup, it's difficult to gauge the actual relative skill level of the players because of the skewed rankings. For example, it's clear to me that EtienneXC is one of the very best 4K players around, but if you look at the United States leaderboard, he's ranked #18. Unless somebody has prior knowledge of the community and recognized players, how are they supposed to know that Etienne is actually one the best 4K players? To the uninitiated, it looks like the top 17 players in the US are better, but aren't participating in the tournament for whatever reason. The opposite was true for South Korea this year; from what I understand, the better 4K players such as jhlee0133 couldn't compete, and someone unfamiliar to mania could assume that those higher ranked South Korean players that weren't participating could only play 7k.

The World Cups bring in a lot of viewers unfamiliar with the non-standard game modes, and from what I've seen, this problem unique to the mania leaderboards brings up a lot of unnecessary confusion. It's not too relevant right now since the 4K World Cup has just recently ended, but it would be nice to see this changed for the next one, assuming others agree that it's an important issue.

If I'm alone in thinking that this is an important point when considering changing how the leaderboard functions, that's fine, but personally I think it could be beneficial to the newbie-friendly rationalism behind osu!.

I'd be fine with separate ranks for 4k and 7k, since it would make things a bit more clear (you could take a look at a player and see which key mode they play better in, etc.) but what's the point on speculating about possible benefits when it's quite clear peppy has no plans to ever implement something like this?

The problem you pointed out XER0qxx wouldn't necessarily be solved by separate leaderboards though. Suppose there's someone who is top tier in stepmania (such as say MinaciousGrace) who doesn't have many ranked plays here, and thus has a relatively low rank because of their lack of plays. If they were to show up in a tournament they'd still be underrated if you based your assumptions on their rank. The problem here is that you assume rank is an accurate representation of player skill, which it quite obviously is not, and will not be for the foreseeable future.

AzureLord, if you were unaware, Ton94 has actually contacted another player here to help develop an alternative system for determining beatmap difficulty already. I'm not sure on what the development status is, but trust me when I say Tom is well aware of the current issues and does actually plan on addressing them at some point. The problem here is that developing a difficulty calculation is much more complicated than you'd think. If you use a naive approach, you will have cases like we do where maps are severely overrated or underrated because of certain patterns (heavy LN use is underrated while large chords are overrated). The problem then becomes that not ever player has the same skillset, so when you start factoring in certain elements of patterns it becomes more difficult to accurately determine how a specific pattern should actually affect the difficulty rating.

Ideally I think the way to develop a difficulty algorithm would be to log information about how well each player handles certain kinds of patterns across all skill levels and build up an algorithm based on that data, but I don't see that happening any time soon either. Even with something as in depth as that however, there will always be edge cases where certain maps for whatever reason get overrated or underrated, or even just 'feel' that way to certain players because they have a different skillset from the average of the community. For example, someone skilled at jackhammers will not see something full of jacks as being as hard as it is since they don't have the same difficulty with jacks that other people do.

In conclusion:

* Things are a hell of a lot more complicated than you think
* Complaining about the system while essentially suggesting something that has already been shot down is not going to do anything useful.
* You are misinformed about Tom's status.
* Threads like this usually devolve into people complaining without reading the rest of the thread, shitposts, and possibly pointless drama before getting locked or forgotten about (whichever comes first).

No aspect of osu! is perfect, and because of the nature of the game, I doubt any aspect ever will be; there'll probably always be complaints about the pp system and stuff. But inability to achieve a perfect representation of player skill shouldn't be a reason to avoid implementing a feature that could significantly help to achieve that (especially if there are no drawbacks). There will certainly still be misjudged players, but some issues could be significantly reduced despite that. Though, as you said, Tom94 is certainly aware of the issues and possible solutions to them, and things will be fixed when its feasible and warranted to do so.

Yes, I believe the mode is better off having them separate, but if peppy said that the keymodes won't be separated, then they most likely won't. The only thing that needs fixing is the SR system is for it to take account finger independence instead of just stamina as well as a couple of other minor things dealing with patterns and gimmicks. This discussion is just confirming our thoughts on the situation without changing anything. When Tom94 comes out with the new SR system, then we will have something to talk about. For now we wait patiently.

I prefer ranking to be separated by keymodes, and I'm awared that this isn't an easy thing to accomplish.

About what peppy said...

"Why not ranking boards for each country for each key number for each unique mod combination for each state in each country for each period since the last lunar eclipse." - Peppy.

They're actually divided by countries, for mods combination (you need to support osu!) and for each period (Monthly Charts). And playing different key numbers is a whole different playstyle than just changing some mods like HD or DT.

A couple things... First, I don't think peppy or Tom94 have said outright that they won't do this but in the osu!mania PP feedback thread this has already been discussed to death and they've made it pretty clear that this isn't likely to happen.

Separating 4/5/6k from 7/8/9k seems completely arbitrary. Separating only 4k seems completely arbitrary. If you're going to do this at least make it different for every mode.

Userbacker wrote:

About what peppy said...
Quote:
"Why not ranking boards for each country for each key number for each unique mod combination for each state in each country for each period since the last lunar eclipse." - Peppy.


They're actually divided by countries, for mods combination (you need to support osu!) and for each period (Monthly Charts). And playing different key numbers is a whole different playstyle than just changing some mods like HD or D

Using this logic we already do have separate key leaderboards in the that the 4K and 7K MWC exist. If you want people to recognize your 4K skillz just win 4K MWC

Also this is a suggestion for the total pp ranking, ( individual difficulties are already only one key ) and nothing else is separate like this. It would be like making different pp leaderboards for jumps and streams in standard, or separating DT and HR players on total pp rankings. I don't even know how you could view the pp rankings differently with multiple versions per gamemode. I think it is better to keep it consolidated into one number that is supposed to represent your skill in mania overall.

As for the PP / difficulty itself, the problem with Etienne and other really good 4k players being underrated is a matter of there not being enough difficult maps for them to get scores on. For players under, let's say... rank #3000, there is a large array of maps that you are able to get your maximum possible pp using only 4k. However once you get beyond that the pp restriction becomes more that there are not enough maps that you can show your skill on. There are only like two actually hard 4k ranked maps (Empress and AiAe) that can challenge top tier players. If there was some 8 star 4k map that got ranked Etienne could pretty easily get a boatload of pp !

Well the easiest way to have a bunch more really hard maps in the game would be to make DT give pp again. About Tom94 and the new PP system... he started that thread 2 years ago and it still isn't fixed. The last update was 4 months ago. DT still doesn't give pp. Chords and notedensity are still overrated. Converts still give pp and have the problem where you have to use 8k mod on some of them to get pp. Solution to the problem of not being able to beat your old scores using DT and the 8k thing on converts=make scores record based on pp earned instead of score(although this has the opposite problem of not being able to get a good top50 score if you did use DT, but I think it's worth it). I can understand if he is busy irl and figuring out ranking system like this is quite challenging and it is way better than when he started but maybe if he can't finish this he could let someone else do it.

edit: I just read a few things on tom94's ask.fm and I think he can do it eventually !! I shouldn't have doubted
edit2: nvm he just said on his ask that he is too busy and someone else should do it when osu gets open sourced