kill me

the timing windows are fine

the root of the problem is that your health isn't drastically penalized for miss-presses

- edit -

imo your health should decrease by varying amounts for anything below a 200, with an increasing penalty which accumulates from each bad hit, that slowly realigns to the original value over time

so like:
1nd miss = -5% hp
2nd miss = -8% hp
* get 100x 300g without any problems *
3rd miss = -5% hp
* get 20x 300g without any problems *
4th miss = -7% hp
1st misspress = -10%hp
* get 100x 300g without problems *
2nd misspress = -6%hp
3rd misspress = -9%hp
etc

but based on the HP drain value of the map

Uh, how is it handled on BMS and other similar games? IIRC on stepmania you get boos and misses for mashing, which makes mashing not realistic. If you keep the correct timing and do a "slider break" if you press the wrong note within the 50 range of another note.

In SM, Judge 4 for SM Marvelous has a 45 ms range. OD10 is 40 ms for 300. http://slexy.org/view/s21u3PtToW

I think the hit windows for standard are about the same as most other rhythm games (at least on OD10).

I dislike failing songs since to me it's more fun to play the game to get a high score than grind one section until I finally pass it because it's much harder than the rest of the beatmap.

ziin wrote:

Uh, how is it handled on BMS and other similar games? IIRC on stepmania you get boos and misses for mashing, which makes mashing not realistic. If you keep the correct timing and do a "slider break" if you press the wrong note within the 50 range of another note.

In SM, Judge 4 for SM Marvelous has a 45 ms range. OD10 is 40 ms for 300. http://slexy.org/view/s21u3PtToW

I think the hit windows for standard are about the same as most other rhythm games (at least on OD10).

I dislike failing songs since to me it's more fun to play the game to get a high score than grind one section until I finally pass it because it's much harder than the rest of the beatmap.

In IIDX if you mash you're pretty much fucked.

The just great window is like, 16ms.

Timing on o!m is just too loose.

Ven wrote:

ziin wrote:

Uh, how is it handled on BMS and other similar games? IIRC on stepmania you get boos and misses for mashing, which makes mashing not realistic. If you keep the correct timing and do a "slider break" if you press the wrong note within the 50 range of another note.

In SM, Judge 4 for SM Marvelous has a 45 ms range. OD10 is 40 ms for 300. http://slexy.org/view/s21u3PtToW

I think the hit windows for standard are about the same as most other rhythm games (at least on OD10).

I dislike failing songs since to me it's more fun to play the game to get a high score than grind one section until I finally pass it because it's much harder than the rest of the beatmap.

In IIDX if you mash you're pretty much fucked.

The just great window is like, 16ms.

Timing on o!m is just too loose.

300g/rainbow is also 16ms.


imo, the problem here is that HP drain is way too low, the timing windows themselves aren't exactly problematic. Misses being the only judgment that breaks combo encourages players to mash through patterns instead of hitting legitimately, simply because you can keep a good combo so easily (see the video in OP)

ziin wrote:

Uh, how is it handled on BMS and other similar games?
[...]
I dislike failing songs since to me it's more fun to play the game to get a high score than grind one section until I finally pass it because it's much harder than the rest of the beatmap.

IIDX/LR2 has "bad" and "poor" for extraneous presses, which act similarly to a "miss", but doesn't accumulate on sequential misses as far as i can recall
Ruv-it (IIDX) doesn't have "bad" or "poor, but increases punishment as you get more non-300s

---

you can always use "no fail"

ohh god, again that video. Some people cant realize that that kind of mashing works only for very slow songs with mostly notes on 1/2 (like map above), otherwise you will fail or you wont even be able to pass a 90%.

Of course I dont defend osu!mania mechanics, and pressing all keys to hit a single note should be punished.

That's what the hardrock mod exists for.

‎

abraker wrote:

That's what the hardrock mod exists for.

yea the unranked hardrock mod is great



mania's HP bar is a joke
if only i could jackhammer better with my thumb...

ohh god, again that video. Some people cant realize that that kind of mashing works only for very slow songs with mostly notes on 1/2 (like map above), otherwise you will fail or you wont even be able to pass a 90%.

I've done it on FDFD OD/HP 7 + HR on my livestream, sure I only cleared with a C, but as a player who's main source of enjoyment in these comes from raw clears, this feat is a huge turnoff none the less.

Hardrock actually makes some songs EASIER. Think about 7k pressing every 1/2 beat on FDFD (Freedom Dive Four Dimensions). It's 222bpm, so youre tapping at 111bpm, so were talking one tap every 135ms. Lets say you're on OD7 like I was on FDFD, the 50 gate is 130-167ms. I couldn't clear it because that gate was outside of what it should of been for my anmitsus to work, one tap would pop misses in the next 1/2 beat instead of the one I was working on. So the misses actually worked as a half-assed antispam. But now add HR, the time gate becomes 92-119ms. Your 50s are no longer acting as antispam here, they're contained within every 7kpresses you do and allows you to keep going without dying.

---

The root of the problem has nothing to do with lenient timegates or HP (though the HP certainly deserves some tweaking too, it's pretty useless). It's just the developers completely left out a whole timegate, a very important one whos sole purpose is to serve as an anti-spam mechanic. O2jam calls their's "bad" and lr2/IIDX calls their's "bad/poor". It's a time gate between the missgate and the largest timegate where if you happen to hit a note in that timegate you get punished. Sure osu does have the 50 gate but it barely punishes the player so you might as well not care about it.

o2jam's bad ou lose HP and break your combo. And HP is VERY previous in o2jam, it's more similar to lr2 hard gauge than it is osu's hp. A few misses is enough to kill you and you need 100+ combo to regenerate anything helpful.

LR2 actually has 2 "punishing" timegates, the bad and poor. The largest timegate, the poor, works very similar to o2jam's bad, except the combo doesn't break. LR2's bad is the 2nd biggest timegate and hitting a note in this timegate will combobreak and bite away your HP just like a normal miss.

But even knowing this you can't expect to go through such a drastic change. Even if they cared enough it'd require them to completely wipe everything in the leaderboards, possibly reconsider some chart's ranking eligibility.It's just way too much of a drastic change that would mostly only please the people that has already left for other games.

Drace wrote:

<wall of text>

I am surprised I actually agree with you. I don't mind the 50's or 100's for that matter punishing the player more strictly. If I counted correctly, HP 10 currently allows 14 misses in a row before failure. 50's perhaps should allow 50% more (21 misses), and 100's twice as much (28 misses), and why not have the same scaling % for the rest of HP.

If that's implemented, however,there might be instances where players will loose PP and score due to after calculation results to failure. Just throwing that out there.

Seeing as Hard Rock is not ranked yet, it might be possible to modify it.

I think that the time windows of Hard Rock should be made so pressing at any time always gives a worse or equal result compared to no-mod.

A way of doing this would be making the time window for misses bigger (a hit that would count as not pressing any note in no-mod might count as hitting way too early and getting a Miss), instead of smaller.

Drace wrote:

Hardrock actually makes some songs EASIER. Think about 7k pressing every 1/2 beat on FDFD (Freedom Dive Four Dimensions). It's 222bpm, so youre tapping at 111bpm, so were talking one tap every 135ms. Lets say you're on OD7 like I was on FDFD, the 50 gate is 130-167ms. I couldn't clear it because that gate was outside of what it should of been for my anmitsus to work, one tap would pop 50s in the next 1/2 beat instead of the one I was working on. So the 50s actually worked as a half-assed antispam. But now add HR, the time gate becomes 92-119ms. Your 50s are no longer acting as antispam here, they're contained within every 7kpresses you do and allows you to keep going without dying.

According to those time windows, the anti-spam mechanic mechanic should give you misses, not 50s (except for LNs, that always give you 50s if you spam them). What you say about HR making spamming easier in that case is true, though.

Full Tablet wrote:

Hard Rock should be made so pressing at any time always gives a worse or equal result compared to no-mod

Yes please! Just make sure it doesn't count during break times, e.i.: When the combo is not displayed

No
It's not that I disagree, but don't you think about all scores which have to be recalculated in order to keep up with the new timing?
Thus many scoreboards will be heaviliy change
I think this change is probably to big to be added safely without messing up all replays/plays/scores/rankings

Ven wrote:

ziin wrote:

Uh, how is it handled on BMS and other similar games? IIRC on stepmania you get boos and misses for mashing, which makes mashing not realistic. If you keep the correct timing and do a "slider break" if you press the wrong note within the 50 range of another note.

In SM, Judge 4 for SM Marvelous has a 45 ms range. OD10 is 40 ms for 300. http://slexy.org/view/s21u3PtToW

I think the hit windows for standard are about the same as most other rhythm games (at least on OD10).

I dislike failing songs since to me it's more fun to play the game to get a high score than grind one section until I finally pass it because it's much harder than the rest of the beatmap.

In IIDX if you mash you're pretty much fucked.

The just great window is like, 16ms.

Timing on o!m is just too loose.

To clear up some confusion with the comparison here:

SM Marv has a timing window of +/- 22.5 ms which adds up to 45ms window in total. (you can see the values in preferences.ini)
iidx just/pGreat timing (for most songs) according to this post has 2 frames (@ 60fps) which gives 16.667ms * 2 = 33.33ms total.


(Also, personally speaking... I don't think it's the timing nor the drain that's not punishing enough, rather the recovery rate is wayyyy too fast on anything not-HP10)

baraatje123 wrote:

No
It's not that I disagree, but don't you think about all scores which have to be recalculated in order to keep up with the new timing?
Thus many scoreboards will be heaviliy change
I think this change is probably to big to be added safely without messing up all replays/plays/scores/rankings

abraker wrote:

If that's implemented, however,there might be instances where players will loose PP and score due to after calculation results to failure. Just throwing that out there.

This is true, which is why this has to be thought through carefully. So far if you ignore the consequences due to recorded plays, this doesn't seem like a bad idea. We also know that the ranking system is going to get an upgrade in the future (per-mod ranking), so it's probably best not to worry about this.

lol are you guys really thinking that timing windows will be changed?
you really haven't been here for long

-Kamikaze- wrote:

lol are you guys really thinking that timing windows will be changed?
you really haven't been here for long

lmao better than sitting here accepting it

Ven wrote:

lmao better than sitting here accepting it

Y'know we've been complaining about this for over a year and look what it got us.
~ N O T H I N G ~
core mechanics cannot be changed now, this game went too far to fix them. Even devs can prolly confirm that. So I suggest not wasting your sanity for this cause

-Kamikaze- has given up, but we won't! Right guys?

osu!standard mechanics are also a little messed up, but its impossible to fix them because it will need to wipe whole scoreboards, no one will do that thing.

The only thing we can fight for is a hardrock mod, because its atm a unranked mod and it needs some fixes before it will be ranked (hopefully with little pp bonus).

make HR mod ranked and give 2,000,000 max score, with all misspresses counting as actual misses, and the HP bar actually meaning something
then when most people have scores with the HR mod (because why would you ever use anything else with 2m score max), divide all past scores by 2
then make the HR mod the default gameplay and make hr unranked again

flawless

xelivous wrote:

divide all past scores by 2
then make the HR mod the default gameplay and make hr unranked again
flawless

You lost me at this. If HR is 2M score max, wouldn't current scores remain the same since, you know, there are no HR modded scores? And HR as the default? WHAT?

Oh no not a stricter timing window ;;

Better just penalize mispresses where a mispress = an actual miss.

What does the timing window have to do with this issue? The guy isn't playing remotely accurately. You are punished for not getting 300s / Maxes in terms of less points added to score per consecutive note hit after an inaccurate hit for a certain number of hits.

Ill just share an opinion here. Mash passing a map doesn't prove anything as one could only get an S by mashing in easy maps (at least for my skill level) and barely pass some non chord-streamy ones.. Maps like Axion can be mashed through and be passed but does a great hurt to the actual score. Implementing this just further discourages newbies to try harder maps (if OD or HP regen were to be stricter). Although at times people boasting on simply passing a map can be annoying at times.

Pissed about people mash passing through a map where they shouldn't? That shouldn't be a problem as they doen't really get good scores and significant pp (certain maps are exceptions but are still hard to pass given that the player has a low to most of the rank 600 people) skill level.

Welp we could have different perspective on this issue and this is how i view it.

But as a player who's main source of enjoyment in these comes from raw clears, this feat is a huge turnoff none the less.

The issues simply lies with what players prioritize when they play. Even if you say "you don't get high score", the players are still "clearing" the map. And in the overall rhythm gaming community that extends well beyond just osu!, there is many, many, more players that get their enjoyments out of simply clearing higher difficulty things rather than grinding a score. And whereas you can do both with no issue in any game, the prior is a completely useless feat in osu because of it's mechanics. This is a fundamentally large problem since it turns away the majority of VSRG players, even most players that started with this game move on to others.

Talking about score and accuracy is simply avoiding to look at the problem that's presented.

And yes, people have been whining for 3 years and literally the opposite of what's been asked has happened in some instances. Asking for a game to change it's core mechanics is essentially asking the game to become a different game, which isn't a reasonable demand considering the masses that are unfortunately satisfied with these flaws. Just go play a different game like everyone else if this one isn't your cup of tea.

I've been around and complaining about problems as long as Drace has. Sorry, but he's right about this. We HAVE been complaining about core mechanics since almost the very moment we discovered how broken they are. I've been an outspoken critic of quite a few decisions. Anything remotely close to a core mechanic of osu!mania is not going to change any time soon, regardless of what gets complained about.

I should also remind everyone that Osu!mania was not originally programmed by peppy. Much of the work of implementing the core mechanics of osu!mania is coded by Woc2006, who left after some drama. The code has been worked on by a number of other people since then, but that's mostly been small tweaks, bugfixes, and skin system changes.

Peppy has said he plans sometime in the future to go over the osu!mania code, but there's no guarantee on what kind of changes that might mean. There's also no timeline for when that could happen.

I think the best solution to this problem is to modify HR into a mod that punishes mashing, has harsher HP, and any other gameplay changes we want. Once it's in a good spot it can become ranked, but it won't give any score benefits, so it'll just be a self-imposed thing for training. From there, we can see where we want to take it.

I've wanted to make this mod for a while, but I need some help with the exact mechanics of the bad/poor thing, and some specifics on what the life loss/recovery should be.

HR needs to be reworked and ranked

Blaizer wrote:

I need some help with the exact mechanics of the bad/poor thing, and some specifics on what the life loss/recovery should be.

Awaits Drace or other VSRG savvy players

‎

Now that's something I agree with
HardRock should be ranked, but it's quite weird it makes everything harder, but no score bonus, so I'm not sure how that'll work

Baraatje123 wrote:

Now that's something I agree with
HardRock should be ranked, but it's quite weird it makes everything harder, but no score bonus, so I'm not sure how that'll work

There is actually a score bonus for Hard Rock, but it is quite small (and it gets smaller the closer the play is to a SS).

Redon wrote:

I would like to see how things work out if you were to just remove the stricter HP modifier from HR and instead make 200/100/50 judgements cost HP instead of filling the bar.

That might already be enough of a punishment for mashing without making the mod stupid hard to the point where you almost need to FC a map to pass it (see HP10).

Finally something we can agree on. Ok so no score bonus, but what about pp bonus?