limited offer: 0*100 1*miss airman, 99.88% in the middle for ~265pp

New idea: If I miss once every 400 combo in a 1200 combo map, should I be rewarded the same as the guy who three missed at the end? It's the same amount of misses, after all.

if he 10 missed in the end then maybe you would, what do you think?

Kheldragar wrote:

New idea: If I miss once every 400 combo in a 1200 combo map, should I be rewarded the same as the guy who three missed at the end? It's the same amount of misses, after all.

With 400 combo, more room for unknown sliderbreaks, chances to only miss at hard points of the map, etc etc. It is better giving at least some weighting towards combo.

I think the point made isn't that it's bad to give weighting but rather that the weighting currently is too high and should be balanced a little. I can stand behind this.

Also, there's still no solution for the slidermap problem? Miss You should be at least 5.8 stars, among others. I think circles are weighted a tad too heavily, especially considering that OD isn't included in SR calculations. If you don't count the accuracy difficulty of circles, how come that 4 1/2 circles in a row are weighted heavier than 4 1/4 sliders spaced at the same distance? It costs the same amount of effort to hit them. Or am I overlooking something here?

Kheldragar wrote:

New idea: If I miss once every 400 combo in a 1200 combo map, should I be rewarded the same as the guy who three missed at the end? It's the same amount of misses, after all.

Consider getting getting 4 100s randomly throughout a song. Now consider getting them all at once at the end. I believe they are the same in our current system.

Keeby wrote:

Kheldragar wrote:

New idea: If I miss once every 400 combo in a 1200 combo map, should I be rewarded the same as the guy who three missed at the end? It's the same amount of misses, after all.

Consider getting getting 4 100s randomly throughout a song. Now consider getting them all at once at the end. I believe they are the same in our current system.

They aren't, at least in terms of score.
Getting 5 100s at the end of a 1200x combo has pretty much the same effect for score as getting 20 100s during the first quarter of the map.
That's why you can have an extremely hard time to surpass some low-acc scores even with an accuracy that is like 5% higher.
In this sense, hitting 100s at different places may keep you from beating a score for more pp as well.

Aside from that, a 100 is on a completely different scale than a miss.
100 means you're slightly off in 1 dimension of gameplay.
Miss means you're completely off in at least 1 dimension of gameplay.
It's completely legitimate that the former doesn't get punished as much pp-wise compared to a miss as it still indicates that you're overall doing the right thing if you don't miss.

Endaris wrote:

They aren't, at least in terms of score.
Getting 5 100s at the end of a 1200x combo has pretty much the same effect for score as getting 20 100s during the first quarter of the map.
That's why you can have an extremely hard time to surpass some low-acc scores even with an accuracy that is like 5% higher.

example

In this sense, hitting 100s at different places may keep you from beating a score for more pp as well.

Aside from that, a 100 is on a completely different scale than a miss.
100 means you're slightly off in 1 dimension of gameplay.
Miss means you're completely off in at least 1 dimension of gameplay.
It's completely legitimate that the former doesn't get punished as much pp-wise compared to a miss as it still indicates that you're overall doing the right thing if you don't miss.

But he's arguing in a PP context, not a score context.

How does spinner accuracy works for PP ?

It seems well-know that accuracy lost on slider breaking too early doesn't count for accuracy PP, being only bad for the max combo PP.
But then what about getting a spinner 100 or 50 ? Does it count like a normal hit ?

I know it doesn't matter /that/ much most of the time but it can matter and I'm curious anyway.
I'd like to just get a 50 and draw something if it only matters for the score.

pp calculations can't see where you got your 100s, 50s, and misses. A 100 is a 100 is a 100, whether it's from a circle, slider, or spinner (though getting a 100 on a slider is often worse because it also lowers your combo). When pp is calculated, it's assumed you got 300 on every slider and spinner in the map and your accuracy on circles is calculated based on that.

GhostFrog wrote:

pp calculations can't see where you got your 100s, 50s, and misses. A 100 is a 100 is a 100, whether it's from a circle, slider, or spinner

It doesn't look like it does.


From the wiki. And I plead guilty for reading it 2/3 times never seeing it also spoke of spinners.

So spinner accuracy doesn't matter, and doesn't affect the combo, thus having a 50 or a 300 on a spinner has 0 effect on PP ? Apparently ?

Ziassan wrote:

From the wiki. And I plead guilty for reading it 2/3 times never seeing it also spoke of spinners.

So spinner accuracy doesn't matter, and doesn't affect the combo, thus having a 50 or a 300 on a spinner has 0 effect on PP ? Apparently.

The pp system can't tell if the 50 you got was on a spinner or not, it assumes that all sliders and spinners are a 300 (and considers the 50 was in a circle).

If both of you say so I guess it's true, the wiki should mention this tho it's quite important info.

It does mention it, but you misinterpreted "ignoring" to mean that 100s aren't counted on sliders and spinners, while it actually means that sliders and spinners aren't counted towards the total accuracy difficulty of the map in pp calculations. 100s are 100s, sadly.

So wait, even though the accuracy in a slider doesn't count towards the pp calculation, it still makes my acc for the map go up? But if you get a 100 on it it will?

Kheldragar wrote:

So wait, even though the accuracy in a slider doesn't count towards the pp calculation, it still makes my acc for the map go up? But if you get a 100 on it it will?

With how pp considers accuracy, a slider can't increase the pp accuracy of a play, only keep it or lower it.

Examples:

1. 100 sliders with 300s, and 10 circles with 300s: 100% accuracy with only 10 objects.
2. 100 sliders with 100s, and 50 circles with 300s: The accuracy is 55.56% (100% accuracy only counting circles), but it is considered you got -33.33% accuracy with 50 objects for pp calculation (0 accuracy pp).

I don't get this ranking system.
I get massive points for ranked maps that havent been hard, and for those that have been extremely tough to finish I get no points at all.
Since I only play maps that are challenging to get finished for me, I only get few points overall despite finishing more and more skillfull maps.
Atleast that is how I see it.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/177523 This is one of the tougher maps I have just about finished lately, not sure if it is a Difficulty that makes me only deserve my current rank
(#79,735)

Your top ranks are self-explanatory, you mostly get C/B around 85% accuracy, probably not max combo.
The PP is mainly depending on your max combo & the accuracy, no matter how hard a map is, if you don't FC (or nearly) with a decent accuracy you'll get very small PP. "Finising" a map without dying is not what gives PP.

Maybe try maps slightly more in your range.

It would be boring to play maps that are easy enough to FC
Or one has to retry again and again to FC it.
They said that this ranking system would be better for casual players.
I don't see casual players going for FC more than full time players, so it looks like they missed that point to me

adratel wrote:

It would be boring to play maps that are easy enough to FC
Or one has to retry again and again to FC it.
They said that this ranking system would be better for casual players.
I don't see casual players going for FC more than full time players, so it looks like they missed that point to me

Well I was just explaining why it was not giving you PP.

I too feel that the max combo thingy is groundless for the PP, having a penalty on the number of miss wherever they are would be more logical. I made a post earlier on this topic about that.

But their is one thing that make this "max combo" antique thing still on, it's the score system, PP would be too different from Score if unliked from Max-combo and the few issues occuring actually would become daily life (since only the best score register and override your preivous, not the best PP, and it can't be changed).

On another hand, one can play casualy not caring about the rank, but I can understand that it's a let down.

adratel wrote:

It would be boring to play maps that are easy enough to FC
Or one has to retry again and again to FC it.
They said that this ranking system would be better for casual players.
I don't see casual players going for FC more than full time players, so it looks like they missed that point to me

You mean you actually have to put in hard work and effort to gain pp? Who would've thought.

@ Kheldragar Playing difficult maps is what I see as hard work, and I don't gain pp from it.
@ Ziassan yeah it doesn't doesn't matter alot. I'll just keep enjoying the game to my desire.

Mashing through a map isn't nearly as impressive as consistency in aim, combo and accuracy. This is why those things are rewarded.

adratel wrote:

@ Kheldragar Playing difficult maps is what I see as hard work, and I don't gain pp from it.
@ Ziassan yeah it doesn't doesn't matter alot. I'll just keep enjoying the game to my desire.

There's hard work, and then there's just dumb hard work. You can try all you want to pass some 6 star map, but you're still going to perform shit at it. That's why they're called performance points, because they track how well you can PERFORM playing a map.

I feel like they should buff aim value for high ARs again.

Ability to read fast enough for a certain AR is a tricky skill to reward properly because for the most part, either you have it or you don't. Some maps are harder to read than others, but that's usually not AR-specific for a map and can't be measured anyway with the current difficulty algorithm. When you give a % bonus to aim for playing a certain AR, you're saying that someone who can play that AR (and maybe even only that AR) is a certain percent better than someone who could do the exact same thing at some lower AR, which is kinda weird. Maybe instead of returning it to its former value it would make more sense to give a low % bonus to aim pp for scores earned on higher approach rates and some flat bonus to the score's pp on top of that that depends only on the approach rate and what fraction of FC you achieved? Would make high AR more valuable for lower-ranked players and less valuable for higher-ranked players than it was previously, which I think is probably fair. In the extreme case (not suggesting this would be a good idea (though I do think there's SOME merit to it), just throwing it out there), changing the high AR bonus to a flat bonus that depends only on approach rate would mean giving a flat bonus to total pp for someone whose scores are all FCs on some specific high AR (more specifically, 20 times the bonus you get for getting a FC on one map at that AR).

Ideally there will eventually be a way to measure reading difficulty that handles both high and low AR in some map-dependent way, but until then, it's hard to say just how much of a bonus high AR should give.

10.3 shouldn't be rewarded because the general consensus it's actually easier for a lot of high tier maps. AR above 10.3 is already rewarded.

jesus1412 wrote:

10.3 shouldn't be rewarded because the general consensus it's actually easier for a lot of high tier maps. AR above 10.3 is already rewarded.

In general, if you're fast enough to read a map at a certain AR, it's going to be easier for you at that AR than at any lower AR, but it's still a skill to be able to read that fast in the first place. I really don't have much sense of how difficult different approach rates are at that end of the spectrum though.

Isn't there also a bonus for low approach rates?

Patterns in lower AR might mess you up anyways even if you can read them since there are so many notes in screen at once. Which is why there is bonus for being able to read those notes in addition to being able to read that lower AR.

Higher AR lowers the amount of note density so why it should be rewarded? For being able to react faster in a rhythm game? Learning to play AR10.3 in general gives you so many maps more to play that there is no need for bonus. Just like there isn't any bonus when you move from AR7 -> AR8 -> AR9.

I know there are a lot of quick players right now , but more often than not , when you are first starting out higher AR will be harder.
At that point when you can read high AR well then you've obviously become a better player.
Before that you used to play maps that are lower AR , even though there are really difficult maps with low AR by now.
But it doesn't work like this:
newer player=lower AR
experienced player=high AR
I dont think its possible to compare low and high approach rate ,depends on what maps do you usually play and got used to.
A lesser skilled player can't play an easy map if its high AR (if there are such maps), and a better player can't play a hard(>insane) map if its low AR?
As mentioned before being able to read high AR is a skill in and of itself. However when you started it didnt take that much effort to just click the circles when you had a whole year for it.
So:
Beatmaps: #=difficulty involving everything in general.
#---->##----->####--------->######################--------->WWW
Thats pretty linear.
But AR does not work like this.
Im just saying that harder maps tend to have high AR as well, and it incrases as you play harder and harder maps.
If you just play low AR all the time then thats going to be easier even if thats a rarity.
Good players tend to not take notice of the fact that it is actually quite challenging to read high AR for newer players like myself.

ShadyAngel wrote:

I know there are a lot of quick players right now , but more often than not , when you are first starting out higher AR will be harder.
At that point when you can read high AR well then you've obviously become a better player.
Before that you used to play maps that are lower AR , even though there are really difficult maps with low AR by now.
But it doesn't work like this:
newer player=lower AR
experienced player=high AR
I dont think its possible to compare low and high approach rate ,depends on what maps do you usually play and got used to.
A lesser skilled player can't play an easy map if its high AR (if there are such maps), and a better player can't play a hard(>insane) map if its low AR?
As mentioned before being able to read high AR is a skill in and of itself. However when you started it didnt take that much effort to just click the circles when you had a whole year for it.
So:
Beatmaps: #=difficulty involving everything in general.
#---->##----->####--------->######################--------->WWW
Thats pretty linear.
But AR does not work like this.
Im just saying that harder maps tend to have high AR as well, and it incrases as you play harder and harder maps.
If you just play low AR all the time then thats going to be easier even if thats a rarity.
Good players tend to not take notice of the fact that it is actually quite challenging to read high AR to newer players like myself.

The bonus was making high level dt overweighted so it was removed. If a new player finds high AR super hard then they're not gonna be fcing high ar maps anyway so a high AR buff won't even effect them.

ShadyAngel wrote:

As mentioned before being able to read high AR is a skill in and of itself.

Honnestly reading low AR on hard/insane maps is also a skill.
It's about being able to see all those circle and understanding the patterns through all those overlapping things, quick memory and such. That's also why AR<8 give a PP bonus.
I wish their was more low ar insane maps.

Ziassan wrote:

I wish their was more low ar insane maps.

If you meant more PP-giving low AR maps, I agree with you. With the way things are now, pulling off a ~120PP play with AR8 nomod is more difficult than 120PP from AR9 nomod. Getting 140+PP from nomod AR8 is so difficult it almost feels impossible. (Maybe someday when I'm good I can 99% Poinsettia)

EDIT: oops didn't see the AR<8 part. Well, I'm all for AR7 and under too.

i swear if low AR actually gets rewarded, even if ar8 will be just balanced, easy mod will be the ultimate pp farm
cs2

[ Momiji ] wrote:

i swear if low AR actually gets rewarded, even if ar8 will be just balanced, easy mod will be the ultimate pp farm
cs2

You'd need to completely rebalance how the system works with OD to make EZ a viable PP gaining option even remotely possible.

Mahoganytooth wrote:

[ Momiji ] wrote:

i swear if low AR actually gets rewarded, even if ar8 will be just balanced, easy mod will be the ultimate pp farm
cs2

You'd need to completely rebalance how the system works with OD to make EZ a viable PP gaining option even remotely possible.

i have taken it into account
especially if acc aim speed (and reading?) get separated

AR will likely never be a huge factor in pp, the same kind of people who think low AR is god hard are basically the reverse of people who think high AR is hard, i.e people with little experience in it. like how your average newb playing ar6 normals thinks ar10 is impossible.

I remember being rank 140k and wondering how ar10 was even followable.

Multtari wrote:

Patterns in lower AR might mess you up anyways even if you can read them since there are so many notes in screen at once. Which is why there is bonus for being able to read those notes in addition to being able to read that lower AR.

Higher AR lowers the amount of note density so why it should be rewarded? For being able to react faster in a rhythm game? Learning to play AR10.3 in general gives you so many maps more to play that there is no need for bonus. Just like there isn't any bonus when you move from AR7 -> AR8 -> AR9.

Completely agreed with this coment. Reading AR9 or superior is rewarding by itself just because it allows you play most of [Extras] and +5 stars maps... and I don't like the idea that this bonus raises precisely these maps that already have harder patterns difficulty just because being higher AR by itself. Appart that AR is a really polemic fact because a map can be easier if played on AR8 but harder at AR10 meanwhile the opposite can happen ... high AR (below AR+10.33) can make the same easier or harder depending each individual player and I don't find just that players with only higher AR reading that can't read well AR9 or lower at all get more rewarded from AR than players that can read AR9 and AR10's alike.

Changing topic, EZ is not a really balanced mod at all but it's viable ranking with it (if you can ). If you look at millhioreF you can look that EZ is really fine on this algorythm, 98% of EZ is equivalent to 91% FC at no mod (on OD7 vs OD3.5) thing that I find really fair. It can't be considered farming because the really effective EZ players are really strange exceptions and players with atleast 1 EZ rank are less than 250's in total. The only thing I don't like at EZ's pp distribution is how bad accuracy scales because of the really low OD, it's more likely "FC is enough and worth, I don't need at all raising accuracy". And I would say EZ should NOT have a pp boost from reading difficulty because that could make it somehow overrated and if AR is no longer considered EZ should been beneficiated from this.

DroidBass wrote:

Completely agreed with this coment. Reading AR9 or superior is rewarding by itself just because it allows you play most of [Extras] and +5 stars maps... and I don't like the idea that this bonus raises precisely these maps that already have harder patterns difficulty just because being higher AR by itself. Appart that AR is a really polemic fact because a map can be easier if played on AR8 but harder at AR10 meanwhile the opposite can happen ... high AR (below AR+10.33) can make the same easier or harder depending each individual player and I don't find just that players with only higher AR reading that can't read well AR9 or lower at all get more rewarded from AR than players that can read AR9 and AR10's alike.

Changing topic, EZ is not a really balanced mod at all but it's viable ranking with it (if you can ). If you look at millhioreF you can look that EZ is really fine on this algorythm, 98% of EZ is equivalent to 91% FC at no mod (on OD7 vs OD3.5) thing that I find really fair. It can't be considered farming because the really effective EZ players are really strange exceptions and players with atleast 1 EZ rank are less than 250's in total. The only thing I don't like at EZ's pp distribution is how bad accuracy scales because of the really low OD, it's more likely "FC is enough and worth, I don't need at all raising accuracy". And I would say EZ should NOT have a pp boost from reading difficulty because that could make it somehow overrated and if AR is no longer considered EZ should been beneficiated from this.

It takes a lot of practice to read high AR / low AR in the first place so I don't see why it wouldn't give any reward, already that "reading a map" doesn't give anything at first... So yes... obviously, EZ should have a PP boost, or in any case, the AR has to be considered in my opinion.

AR10 might be easier on some maps, same as ar10.3 but it's only easier if you can actually read it. Poeple spent weeks to learn to read this AR, I think it's something harder to do than just playing some AR8 / 9 and get the same amount of PP than someone who has gotten a new skill.

Like...seriously, someone who plays AR10.3 only all day won't be able to play Easy at all. It would need a lot of time/practice to do it. And when he will finally be able to FC a map with Easy he will probably get nothing because DT gives way more PP than anything else. So for a system who's supposed to work on INVIDUAL skill...

I think EZ having a pp boost for AR doesn't really matter as much since the od is mangled.

AR under 9 should get a pp boost. Just a little for ar7/8, but it should give a good 10% boost for EZ. There's no reason why reading skills shouldn't be rewarded. It's not subjective, high object density is difficult for everyone and requires a lot of practice to master.

congratulations, now your 60pp easy plays can become 66pp plays
the 'it's still not worth it' and 'there's more to it' effects could be nullified by separating aim, speed and acc, and creating a separate category for reading.

AR below 8 already does give a bonus. An increased one if hidden is being used. Since forever.

In my opinion, AR8 should also be included in this bonus. The standards nowadays are AR9 and AR10, anything below or over that is hard for people to read. Yes, it depends on the map (more precisely, on object density), but in most cases AR8 is quite difficult.

Gigo wrote:

In my opinion, AR8 should also be included in this bonus. The standards nowadays are AR9 and AR10, anything below or over that is hard for people to read. Yes, it depends on the map (more precisely, on object density), but in most cases AR8 is quite difficult.

Ar8 would give a pp bonus for reading just like od7 does for acc.

I think that low AR / Easy are fine how they are, Easy isn't meant to be for farming, it's to make maps easier (assuming you can read or memorise maps with it).

blahpy wrote:

assuming you can read.....

But reading is the whole reason EZ mod is difficult and should be worth more

[ Momiji ] wrote:

congratulations, now your 60pp easy plays can become 66pp plays
the 'it's still not worth it' and 'there's more to it' effects could be nullified by separating aim, speed and acc, and creating a separate category for reading.

As they find how to separate again Aim and speed then maps like Tsunamaru - Daidai Genome will get massively nerfed on DT because there is not much speed at doing single taps and triplets of 210 bpm at all (not even a single stream). That one is really overrated and very wanted just because the pp it can give... at being overrated from both star system and being OD9.67 q-q

Sincerelly I would like that a day Accuracy becomes not that independant from the map's difficulty. There are many free accuracy high OD maps that are being abused too oftenly, mostly DT ones, maps that even with their OD9 or OD9.67 lots of people rank with +99% accuracy and starting being overrated at rank from free accuracy high OD maps.

+99% accuracy is fine I know, but I mean, if it's from a map that lots of persons can easly do +99% compared to "easier" (less stars) maps that are more difficult to accurate finely and even if they're OD8-OD7 that ISN'T high OD, then I wouldn't like calling these +99% high OD ranks a really good proof of high accuracy.

The only problem I see from OD7 maps with good difficulty and with not so many circles is that their 95% and 100% values aren't that different compared to DT's 95% againist its version but at 100%. Looks weird seing less oftenly good 100% no mod ranks than 100% DT ranks on people's best performance and we see higher accuracy precisely on these OD9-OD9.67 DT maps than on these OD8 harder no mods with similar stars that the same player have ranked.

This needs atention and a counter, affortunaly it's planned a day to consider patterns complexity on the pp that each map gives, thing that should nuke down most DT overrated ranks, that HR would been unharmed and raise no mod potential (if I'm guessing right, sure)

Kheldragar wrote:

If I learned hd and 2x100'd my top play, that'd be 304pp. Od 9.67 too strong.

Any pp from skillet hero [Fate] is totally worth, such a beast DT rank man, nice one. The mix of anoying long sliders and circles or sliders between them makes it considerably harder than most DT's of that value, it's even better than my #1 of 252 pp. Also both cases of DT are fairly good DT ranks.

DroidBass wrote:

Kheldragar wrote:

If I learned hd and 2x100'd my top play, that'd be 304pp. Od 9.67 too strong.

Any pp from skillet hero [Fate] is totally worth, such a beast DT rank man, nice one. The mix of anoying long sliders and circles or sliders between them makes it considerably harder than most DT's of that value, it's even better than my #1 of 252 pp. Also both cases of DT are fairly good DT ranks.

I thought the exact opposite; I found sentimental love + DT, seven doors nomod, up all night HR, Miiro [extra] &c. much harder than hero. I don't think the sliders are annoying, they make it easier for me to maintain whatever acc I could as opposed to having all cirlces. Don't most people alternate sliders?

To be honest, I've seen people of higher rank than mine or yours not being capable to FC skillet hero at DT on Fate. Also you should ask it to more players to have a better perspective about that rank, but personally find that map a way too difficult because my aim always sucked xP

Tom94 wrote:

AR below 8 already does give a bonus. An increased one if hidden is being used. Since forever.

I know, but the bonus should be more and it should include ar8. Low AR will never be the meta or farmable but giving it a small boost would be nice. It might encourage people to play the thousands of AR8 maps there are.

Gigo wrote:

In my opinion, AR8 should also be included in this bonus. The standards nowadays are AR9 and AR10, anything below or over that is hard for people to read. Yes, it depends on the map (more precisely, on object density), but in most cases AR8 is quite difficult.

This.

So when are long HR maps gonna be weighted fairly? I have a 97% FC on Let This Go with HDHR which is a >2400 combo map worth 174pp, while Jamaican Love DT at 98.92% (which is like a minute long and the only "difficult" part is a single stream, the rest is just a bunch of triples and sliders) is worth 227pp. That seems like a pretty big gap to me, especially since Jamaican Love was a 2 try map that was absurdly easy (I didn't even think I'd get pp for it and it turned out to be my #5 play) while on Let This Go I'm ranked #16 global, which says for itself that it's not that easy to get a decent HDHR score on. It's just one of many examples where long HR maps are weighted kinda meh while short DT maps with one or maybe two spaced streams are weighted ridiculously high. Isn't there a way to bring some balance to this?

SS is 310 pp. If you have good acc longer maps give a lot of pp. At higher levels at least most of the HR farm maps are long.

edit: I think that long maps + low OD or accuracy are underrated.

Tess wrote:

So when are long HR maps gonna be weighted fairly? I have a 97% FC on Let This Go with HDHR which is a >2400 combo map worth 174pp, while Jamaican Love DT at 98.92% (which is like a minute long and the only "difficult" part is a single stream, the rest is just a bunch of triples and sliders) is worth 227pp. That seems like a pretty big gap to me, especially since Jamaican Love was a 2 try map that was absurdly easy (I didn't even think I'd get pp for it and it turned out to be my #5 play) while on Let This Go I'm ranked #16 global, which says for itself that it's not that easy to get a decent HDHR score on. It's just one of many examples where long HR maps are weighted kinda meh while short DT maps with one or maybe two spaced streams are weighted ridiculously high. Isn't there a way to bring some balance to this?

I disagree, long HR maps are weighted a bit too much for high accuracy lol

Tess wrote:

So when are long HR maps gonna be weighted fairly? I have a 97% FC on Let This Go with HDHR which is a >2400 combo map worth 174pp, while Jamaican Love DT at 98.92% (which is like a minute long and the only "difficult" part is a single stream, the rest is just a bunch of triples and sliders) is worth 227pp. That seems like a pretty big gap to me, especially since Jamaican Love was a 2 try map that was absurdly easy (I didn't even think I'd get pp for it and it turned out to be my #5 play) while on Let This Go I'm ranked #16 global, which says for itself that it's not that easy to get a decent HDHR score on. It's just one of many examples where long HR maps are weighted kinda meh while short DT maps with one or maybe two spaced streams are weighted ridiculously high. Isn't there a way to bring some balance to this?

The problem with HR / HD HR is that 95% values are shit if the map isn't a really crazy map meanwhile SS is ridicully high valued. The problem with ANY high OD map is the absurd distribution of pp meant in high accuracy. JUST see a map named Skrillex & The Doors - Breakn' a Sweat (Original Mix) that on 95% accuracy DT values less than 160 pp but as SS values ABSURD 280 pp ... YESSSSSS it's the same map!! Just so many circles and OD9.67.

Long maps with low OD aren't a real problem at all, sometimes the huge amount of circles at 99% is worth their pp if you are really consistent player it shouldn't be a worry if you're ranking 99% on a 700 of the same difficulty than a 1900 map alike. The REAL problem is the 5 stars OD8.4 HR plays, if you look at Hatsune Miku - Hiatus at HR, you will notice it's an highly chaotic map that is very under-rewarded same as IRON ATTACK! - Future is Undefined that has radical jumps and streams and it's not worth at more than 220's pp on SS at being harder than maps likely SMiLE.dk - Golden Sky that IS one of these free accuracy high OD ranks.

I'm seing that the main problem of this is that this algorythm isn't considering rightly the OD based on how difficult the patterns are and instead accuracy is completely independant of map's patterns complexity/level.

Xilver wrote:

I disagree, long HR maps are weighted a bit too much for high accuracy lol

Considering your accuracy can hit 99% with hardrock... Cause for the same map with the same FC if you end up with 94% you might get nothing. So for a top player who is pretty constant it might sounds right but for an average player... The FC was already something by itself I think... But in any case it would probably give nothing Because you already Fced that Jamaican Love map that give more than 200 pp so for the system the score you just did with hr isn't worth that dt play..

I mean Tess gave the perfect example about why so many maps are underated...it's because some other maps (DT maps) are overated. Something like this?

High accuracy Dragonforce HR should be worth a fuckton.

Assuming that accuracy pp is handled the same way it used to be, your accuracy pp for a play is maximized at the maximum OD at which you could SS the map - in other words, if you were to play two maps that are completely identical aside from the OD, then given that both have OD values that are too high for you to achieve an SS, you'd get more pp from the lower OD map for the same exact play. The result is that people who can get SS or near SS on OD10 get a ton of pp from HR and people who get lower accuracy get unfairly little.

I wouldn't say unfair; od10 is hard to acc and having 99%+ with that should be well reqarded, no? If you can't acc then too bad?

Kheldragar wrote:

I wouldn't say unfair; od10 is hard to acc and having 99%+ with that should be well reqarded, no? If you can't acc then too bad?

I said "unfairly little" and I was mostly talking about people who don't get 99% accuracy. If you can get for example 97% on a map with OD10, you would get more pp from the exact same play if the map had been OD9. In fact, your pp would keep increasing for the same exact play as you lowered the OD until you reached an OD at which you could SS the map, at which point your pp for the play would start decreasing.

So I do think that lower accuracy HR plays get an unfairly low amount of pp compared to what they deserve...and at the very least, they definitely get an unfairly low amount of pp compared to higher accuracy plays on lower OD.

That would also explain why plays such as Gayzmcgee's hdhr fc on Forgotten give such a low pp reward

Mahoganytooth wrote:

blahpy wrote:

assuming you can read.....

But reading is the whole reason EZ mod is difficult and should be worth more

I find AR10.3 much harder (impossible) than AR4 but there is no bonus for reading AR10.3, so I don't see why Easy should give any any more than the small bonus it already gives...

You think Hvick could do Hoshizora DT if it were AR4? I don't think so. AR4 is harder than AR10.3.

The real question is ar11 vs ar 4.

B1rd wrote:

You think Hvick could do Hoshizora DT if it were AR4? I don't think so. AR4 is harder than AR10.3.

start talking in object density instead of approach rate. playing EZ on extra maps is not comparable to normal diffs.

-GN wrote:

start talking in object density instead of approach rate. playing EZ on extra maps is not comparable to normal diffs.

Of course it's object density that is what's difficult, but it would be a lot simpler to implement a buff based on AR instead of object density, and it would pretty much have the same effect. Any serious player would move past the difficulties where there is a very low AR that gives an appropriate object density very quickly.

Can we separate aim/speed/acc yet? Fuq yo servers.

jesus1412 wrote:

Can we separate aim/speed/acc yet? Fuq yo servers.

Bring back tom points

Kheldragar wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

Can we separate aim/speed/acc yet? Fuq yo servers.

Bring back tom points

Delete puu.sh completely and put it to better use. Hard drives can compute pp right?

sure if they make some kind of rainbow table out of all possible aim/speed/acc pp variables

B1rd wrote:

You think Hvick could do Hoshizora DT if it were AR4? I don't think so. AR4 is harder than AR10.3.

That is why AR shouldn't be considered at all in pp. AR bonus should been only considered from +AR10.33 with notably high spaced patterns and consdering it for low AR HD plays. I can comment you that as +OD8 nomod player and as DT farmer DT player it's easier ranking high accuracy at high OD with higher AR than with AR9, ressulting that AR9 + OD9 is in general harder to accurate than AR9.67 + OD9 exceptly if you have messed up with the aim ... but making the last one easier to read because of less pattern density in the screen.

So from anywhere we talk about how AR10's is more difficult than AR9's or AR9's can be more tricky to play than AR10's at the same map it's just arbitrary. Higher AR forces player to act by impulse instead of waiting a little or fixing your tempo if you had a little misstake at aiming the circle.

Also the fact that makes HR harder than DT isn't the OD10 vs OD9.67/OD9 lol no, it's the circle size that sometimes is VERY underwarded. Just look at how strange/uncommon is seing low OD (7 or lower) cs=5 nomod maps on anyone's best performance againist free accuracy DT farming ... even these 5 stars HR at OD8.4 are very rare to see on best performance list of anyone.

AR should be considered because in all forms i believe the pp system should reward based on how many people can actually play a certain way effectively. there arent many people who can fc 7+ star maps so those plays should be worth 400+ pp, there aren't many people who can do AR4 extras so in the same manner, it should be worth a lot

Riince wrote:

AR should be considered because in all forms i believe the pp system should reward based on how many people can actually play a certain way effectively. there arent many people who can fc 7+ star maps so those plays should be worth 400+ pp, there aren't many people who can do AR4 extras so in the same manner, it should be worth a lot

I'd rather say it should be based on the practice time it requires (estimated) insead but the main idea is here yes.

jesus1412 wrote:

Can we separate aim/speed/acc yet? Fuq yo servers.

Some server performance issues got solved in the recent past, today I optimized the pp calculator accordingly to make use of all the extra power (it's like 10x faster now) and I don't see any reason to not split pp into categories again. It'll require some implementation effort, but obstacles are disappearing one by one.

Can't promise it to happen with the current website, but I do want to get it into the new website for sure.

Tom94 wrote:

Some server performance issues got solved in the recent past, today I optimized the pp calculator accordingly to make use of all the extra power (it's like 10x faster now) and I don't see any reason to not split pp into categories again. It'll require some implementation effort, but obstacles are disappearing one by one.

Can't promise it to happen with the current website, but I do want to get it into the new website for sure.

i love you tom

also how does CS work on pp? I know it raises aim value, but I'm not so sure how that variable works on the pp... does it scale with accuracy? it's a flat value? no idea. I'm seing that CS on what refers to accuracy is harder than OD is (for me) ... by this I mean that I feel that I lose more accuracy from smaller circles than from OD by itself and this is what I say to justificate how I can 99% DT too many stuff meanwhile my average HR accuracy is just 94-97% acc... OD10 is not THAT different to OD9.67 and I have some good ranks out of 98% OD9.67 from DT at CS4 or CS3 meanwhile I just have ONE 98.95% HR rank OD8.4 and I find this a lot harder to accuracy to my OD9.67 from DT...

Sincerelly I would like that some of you could try these 3 maps with the mods I suggest to you and to give your personal toughts about how difficult to accurate are all the 3 maps.

IRON ATTACK! - Future is Undefined [Insane] +HR (OD8.4) I got extremelly lucky at getting +1.25% accuracy than my average plays on a submited try
3OH!3 (feat. Katy Perry) - Starstrukk [FrozenPower's Hard] +DT (OD9.67) It has weird CS3 that makes it easy to aim but sometimes difficulting to accurate because of more chances of hitting an unwished circle (will not cost you a miss, but can cost some accuracy).
DJ Flower - Jamaican Love [Insane] +DT (OD9.67) somehow easy to accurate even at being OD9.67, singles taps, triplets and one unique stream that isn't too long.


I can't study at all by myself how much matters CS on pp because I do not see any notable difference at pp from maps with 1CS of difference because they're not that common appart that most cs=5 maps are differently mapped than standard cs=4 maps.

I have a somehow good idea how OD works on here by raising radically the 99% accuracy values, I never include AR in pp toughts mostly because the most frequent fact is that these maps with highest OD have higher AR (likely these OD9 AR9.67 from DT OR OD10 AR10 HR's).

BOOP

I don't see the problem

Redon wrote:

I don't see the problem

My last brain cell died.

DroidBass wrote:

OD10 is not THAT different to OD9.67

it really is. it's also easier to acc dt because it's faster.

AR is more like preferance imo, especially these days. All people suggest different ARs on same map from 9.0 to even 10.0.(yes I am mapping something 6☆+ though). I'm still the most comfortable with AR9, while others actually say 9.5~10.0 is actually comfortable even on same map.

idk, I honestly think AR should be adjustable and never effect pp at this level. there was a moment where people couldn't AR10 but cookiezi-level players, but nowdays.. Idk, there are people who adds HR just because they can't read 8.0, or even 9.0, and they are more comfortable with higher ARs(Just like how i do best on AR 8.0~9.3, while i can still play bit of 6~7, 9.4~s. their best is AR 9.5 and it starts from there I guess.)

sucks for them because they have to HR or DT most of old-days maps(AR9.0), or even other maps with AR9.0s.
and yeah sucks for those you can't AR9.1+ no matter how good they play.

My examples are slightly exaggerated but it does happen, though.

currently yes AR11 is known to be very hard, but what I do wanna say that AR10 was the same way few years ago. well. AR10 these days? some people actually "prefer" those.

haha5957 wrote:

AR is more like preferance imo, especially these days. All people suggest different ARs on same map from 9.0 to even 10.0.(yes I am mapping something 6☆+ though). I'm still the most comfortable with AR9, while others actually say 9.5~10.0 is actually comfortable even on same map.

idk, I honestly think AR should be adjustable and never effect pp at this level. there was a moment where people couldn't AR10 but cookiezi-level players, but nowdays.. Idk, there are people who adds HR just because they can't read 8.0, or even 9.0, and they are more comfortable with higher ARs(Just like how i do best on AR 8.0~9.3, while i can still play bit of 6~7, 9.4~s. their best is AR 9.5 and it starts from there I guess.)

sucks for them because they have to HR or DT most of old-days maps(AR9.0), or even other maps with AR9.0s.
and yeah sucks for those you can't AR9.1+ no matter how good they play.

My examples are slightly exaggerated but it does happen, though.

currently yes AR11 is known to be very hard, but what I do wanna say that AR10 was the same way few years ago. well. AR10 these days? some people actually "prefer" those.

You may have a point. I only agree if you can't change the AR while playing hardrock. It would make no sense.

make the AR freely adjustable, but accordingly rewarded or penalized by pp.

and what would reward or penalize?

Reward what fewer people can play and penalize what more people can play

Mahoganytooth wrote:

Reward what fewer people can play and penalize what more people can play

HRDT buff pls

inb4 Emperorpenguin suddenly #1

Penguin would be #1 if he actually had good accuracy.

Well that depends

Does HR+DT change OD in the same way it changes AR?

Like can you get to OD11 with them or does it put a hard cap at OD10

I wonder what an OD11 SS would be worth

If it is OD11 then poor acc is understandable

@Mahogany

Mahoganytooth wrote:

Reward what fewer people can play and penalize what more people can play

this is what ppv1 tried to do. and it proved to be a horrible approach.

I thought PPV1 just rewarded you based on global score rankings on the songs you played so the best way to get ranks was to 4mod SS easys and normals and spin fast.

Mahoganytooth wrote:

I thought PPV1 just rewarded you based on global score rankings on the songs you played so the best way to get ranks was to 4mod SS easys and normals and spin fast.

If you are #1, then that means you're rewarded for what no one else has done.

maps where you beat high ranked players or maps which had a lot of scores were worth more if you set a high rank.

Kheldragar wrote:

Mahoganytooth wrote:

I thought PPV1 just rewarded you based on global score rankings on the songs you played so the best way to get ranks was to 4mod SS easys and normals and spin fast.

If you are #1, then that means you're rewarded for what no one else has done.

You literally just span faster than anyone else

That's not worth rewarding

silmarilen wrote:

maps where you beat high ranked players or maps which had a lot of scores were worth more if you set a high rank.

That's a poor approach to anything but entirely separate to what we're discussing

Tom doesn't want to add that kind of human factor to the PP calculations, that's why you wont see those "bonuses" anytime soon. Ideally, the algorithm should reflect what you are saying; reward what fewer people can do. Unfortunately that would require a reading difficulty calculator which is very hard to come up with...