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[added] New beatmap category for good unrankable mapsets

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This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +12,918
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Sea_Food

Midge wrote:

I have some questions though. If it's gonna be this easy to get a leaderboard for your map, what would even be the point of going for real rank in your map? Is that not the point other than for it to be counted for pp? Or is this only applying to full-on, unrankable maps, and not tv-sizes or even fanzhen-esque maps, which are completely rankable?

Furthermore, I've skimmed through the thread, but I haven't read anything about a process. I'd like to see at least some idea for a structure.

Also, are IIDX maps allowed in this category? Those are unrankable, too.

That said, I really hope you refute what I've brought up, as this is a really good idea. I just want to make sure it's watertight.
Yes the point of getting your map ranked is so that it yields pp. Doing good on a ranked map = your rank gets better. The primary reason there even is a ranking criteria is not to promote polished maps, but to ensure that people would not get ranking from "troll maps." It was much more important in the old pp system but its still valid now.

Also there have been alot of ideas about the process. Most of them bad but i will give you mine.
1. Someone makes a map
2. A BN or a QAT plays it and notices that the map is playable, as in its compleatly mapped and has no empty difficulties, is timed atleast almost perfectly.
3. The map gets promoted (to checked??) and gets a learderboard and somekind of distinction for the download page.
Note that this can happen without a single mod made to the map.

and that optionally continues into

4. the map goes trough the ranking process
5. the map gets ranked

jesus1412 wrote:

Eyyyy you made a good post.
thanks man
jesse1412

Akali wrote:

Approval criteria:

-Proper timing (crucial) Ok.
-At least basic hitsounding Ok.
-One diff only, preferably with some sort of minimal star rating (4-4,5 should work for osu!) What's the point in this?
-At least 1:50 of draining time 30 seconds should be long enough (or just fully mapped mp3).
-Map shows "intelligent design" - it shouldn't be just few minutes of retarded square jumps, it should represent the music somehow, just without being bothered about stuff like kiai time, proper slider velocity etc Ok.
-No extreme overmapping Too subjective, if it plays well, let it have a scoreboard.
- +6sp minimum? Just to guarantee some sort of insight from modders or that mapper actively takes a part in a modding process on other maps/sets Ok.

Biggest problem here is that this sort of approval could easily get out of control and create a circlejerk on larger scale, where friends approve eachother's gridsnapped copypaste. I still love this idea, it would let some mappers get more recognition and players show off their skills on something more crazy then we are used to. Punish these people if their maps are shitty, revoke their ability to scoreboard a map.

Also I think it would be a good idea to seperate these maps from officially ranked maps, so stupid people don't start blaming osu! staff for promoting "cancer". I would be ok with a situation where they don't even appear in "Beatmaps" section, just let them have seperate forum. This way better maps like this would be played more and spread across the community through multiplayer, pms and spectating players, resulting in some sort of natural selection in terms of popularity No point in this really, they'll be like other maps, just make it obvious that the map doesn't contribute to pp (not sure why they wouldn't if they have to go through approval to get a scoreboard though, it's pretty clear if they pass that they aren't pp breaking maps).
Akali

jesus1412 wrote:

Akali wrote:

Approval criteria:

-Proper timing (crucial) Ok.
-At least basic hitsounding Ok.
-One diff only, preferably with some sort of minimal star rating (4-4,5 should work for osu!) What's the point in this?I don't know, not overflowing osu! with approved easy diffs?
-At least 1:50 of draining time 30 seconds should be long enough (or just fully mapped mp3).I guess, whatever
-Map shows "intelligent design" - it shouldn't be just few minutes of retarded square jumps, it should represent the music somehow, just without being bothered about stuff like kiai time, proper slider velocity etc Ok.
-No extreme overmapping Too subjective, if it plays well, let it have a scoreboard.come on now, it still should be mapped properly, by extreme overmapping I mean putting a deatstream over one note out of ass
- +6sp minimum? Just to guarantee some sort of insight from modders or that mapper actively takes a part in a modding process on other maps/sets Ok.

Biggest problem here is that this sort of approval could easily get out of control and create a circlejerk on larger scale, where friends approve eachother's gridsnapped copypaste. I still love this idea, it would let some mappers get more recognition and players show off their skills on something more crazy then we are used to. Punish these people if their maps are shitty, revoke their ability to scoreboard a map.

Also I think it would be a good idea to seperate these maps from officially ranked maps, so stupid people don't start blaming osu! staff for promoting "cancer". I would be ok with a situation where they don't even appear in "Beatmaps" section, just let them have seperate forum. This way better maps like this would be played more and spread across the community through multiplayer, pms and spectating players, resulting in some sort of natural selection in terms of popularity No point in this really, they'll be like other maps, just make it obvious that the map doesn't contribute to pp (not sure why they wouldn't if they have to go through approval to get a scoreboard though, it's pretty clear if they pass that they aren't pp breaking maps).
Sea_Food

Akali wrote:

I don't know, not overflowing osu! with approved easy diffs?
Somehow I really dont see that being a problem we would ever have. Besides especially for "gimmick maps" the star rating says very little.
Lust

Sea_Food wrote:

Akali wrote:

I don't know, not overflowing osu! with approved easy diffs?
Somehow I really dont see that being a problem we would ever have. Besides especially for "gimmick maps" the star rating says very little.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/231394 this will become a reality, once I find the motivation to continue it
Midge
But what about maps like ievann polkka or story of my wife, maps that people would definitely want to see a leaderboard for, but aren't considered quality.
Vuelo Eluko

xxdeathx wrote:

just wondering how do people shoot 70 stars at a feature request? i thought you only get 2 per month

and how'd this get to 7.5k SP in 3 days?
I've spent 30$ in supporter since I made this account, and in a year I've only received 2 stars to use :roll:

No idea how the hell they do that.

on the subject of 'ranking criteria'
It's well know that the idea of those barriers just being there for the new players is bogus, it's there to make things easier for the staff. Because it's easier to say "Blah Blah Unrankable Patterns" than it is to admit they aren't good enough at the game to gauge whether the map plays well or not.

The fact that Frostmourne quit being a BAT speaks to the failure of the ranking criteria, if he ranked anything that he thought played well but was hard, some QAT would just strike from the grassy knoll and unrank it anyway because 'lolrankingcriteria'. Do you really think he wants to sit there and bubble 4 star captin1 tv sizes for the rest of his life?
Akali

Sea_Food wrote:

Akali wrote:

I don't know, not overflowing osu! with approved easy diffs?
Somehow I really dont see that being a problem we would ever have. Besides especially for "gimmick maps" the star rating says very little.
Maybe, I just feel it still should be either gimmicky or insanes/extra/490 etc

Riince wrote:

It's well know that the idea of those barriers just being there for the new players is bogus, it's there to make things easier for the staff. Because it's easier to say "Blah Blah Unrankable Patterns" than it is to admit they aren't good enough at the game to gauge whether the map plays well or not.

The fact that Frostmourne quit being a BAT speaks to the failure of the ranking criteria, if he ranked anything that he thought played well but was hard, some QAT would just strike from the grassy knoll and unrank it anyway because 'lolrankingcriteria'. Do you really think he wants to sit there and bubble 4 star captin1 tv sizes for the rest of his life?
Riince is right
Lust
Just to let you all be aware, we have plenty of BNs who are very well capable of playing difficult sets and aren't afraid of giving their opinions in regards to maps. Also, I'm not one to speak for the majority of the BNG, I always ask for testplays from pro players whenever looking to move a map forward I cannot play myself. To say such things is an insult to those who put effort into making sure the maps they push forward are ready and without any unnatural/awkward play. We have difficult maps pushed through all the time, and we also have easier maps cycled through the same. Whenever I see someone say such lunacy, I come to the conclusion that they do not know how the ranking/unranking process works in the slightest.

Besides, before anything can be added to the ranking criteria is discussed thoroughly to make sure there are no issues. In the case of this new approval system, such ranking criteria wouldn't even apply anyway.

On topic: Looking forward to seeing this implemented some time, maybe I can help lend a hand on the criteria
Vuelo Eluko
There are plenty of BN's who are good at the game, my gripe was more with the criteria. And also in the fact that this is allowed to happen: p/3591479
Lust
I helped move forward that map after plenty of testplays and thorough modding on my end; in that case its just a matter of opinion (not really any criteria involved). I thought it was a good map, apparently those in charge did not. A clash of opinions in this manner will always result in the party with the more power winning. Its something that will continue to plague the new modding system due to the subjectivity and will not change as far as I am aware.

anyway, lets get dis back on topic yo
Vuelo Eluko
one more thing about QAT's

Lust wrote:

I helped move forward that map after plenty of testplays and thorough modding on my end, in that case its just a matter of opinion (not really any criteria involved). I thought it was a good map, apparently those in charge did not. Its something that will continue to plague the new modding system due to the subjectivity and will not change as far as I am aware.

anyway, lets get dis back on topic yo
of course, and for something to make it through all those criteria hoops and hurdles just to get shot down by someone with an opinion and too much power is incredibly discouraging to BN's, Mappers, and Modders alike. Something really needs to change somewhere. Things are different, this wouldnt be out of place back in simpler times when it was just a handful of mappers making maps, while Peppy goes around ranking things with a wave of his hand like 7-8 years ago, but it's just out of place and unprofessional today with a large pool of staff, a thorough ranking process, and lots of mappers.

My favorite part about this request is how much more accessible juicy replays on crazy maps will be for people who don't harass top players for puu.sh's, and of course getting to see jesse defend his title as big money big prizes champion.
Akali

Riince wrote:

My favorite part about this request is how much more accessible juicy replays on crazy maps will be for people who don't harass top players for puu.sh's, and of course getting to see jesse defend his title as big money big prizes champion.
Exactly, right now I have to watch my shit on auto unless I ask someone for testplay or see someone playing it randomly. I don't see any drawbacks of this solution aside from time and effort of providing the "infrastructure". Makes many players happy, makes many mappers happy, makes crowd happy
Kibbleru
I think this would be a really cool feature if implemented properly, but i can't see this happening soon. Doing something like this requires a whole new ranking criteria, obviously you don't want every pending map to be in this category right? That will take a lot of time and work, unless peppy gives the go on this one and starts recruiting more staff to be in charge of a big plan like this, i don't see it happening.

It will also take time for the BN's or community to adjust to something like this.
t3s_0
im ready to donate all of my 20 stars into this god damn unrealizable dream, it worth it
DoKito

Akali wrote:

Riince wrote:

My favorite part about this request is how much more accessible juicy replays on crazy maps will be for people who don't harass top players for puu.sh's, and of course getting to see jesse defend his title as big money big prizes champion.
Exactly, right now I have to watch my shit on auto unless I ask someone for testplay or see someone playing it randomly. I don't see any drawbacks of this solution aside from time and effort of providing the "infrastructure". Makes many players happy, makes many mappers happy, makes crowd happy
Totally this. I suck at playing my own maps for some reason... And most people I know cannot even pass my maps or are never available nor warmed up. Having a scoreboard would make more people tryhard maps like yours and mine, i guess.

Also Imho, maps for this category wouldn't even need deep analyses/mods. Just some few guidelines like:
- Is it properly timed?
- Does it have any minor mistakes? (2 circles on 1 tick, objects on no ticks at all, bla bla)
- Only 1 difficulty (or max. 2, since this isn't supposed to be a whole mapset and if you want 1337 GDs you can go for rank anyways)
- Is it "well" mapped? (This is pretty subjective, but the best solution would be to let the community decide that in some way)

This should be it. Nothing more. No strict ranking criteria.
Lokovodo
I am 100% for this. I would love to see many non-ranked classics such as Story of my Wife, perthed again (yambabom remix), and my ALL TIME FAVORITE map Ukigumo get scoreboards, but i don't think that is enough. I think they should be supported by pp aswell. However maps such as Graces of Heaven, Endless Tewi-ma Park and Lemon Tree all deserve scoreboards but should not give pp.

We should make 2 additional categorys. the first being the "Gimmick" category and the second one being the old approval system.

To approve a map for the gimmick category I suggest making it the same as the old approval system but with a star requirement and being lenient specifc mapping techniques. Let us look back onto deltaMAX (by spro). deltaMAX was a very popular map that everyone loved so everyone supported it by giving it stars. If everyone loves it than let it be ranked. I think stars are the easiest way i can think of to show support for a map of the gimmick category. Having to get a large amount of stars lets say 50-100 before you can submit your map in the gimmick category should be fine because it balances out people who make proper "normal" maps that are following the current ranking criteria and modern mapping techniques over the people who make/work for making gimmick maps.

There is a thread called The Graveyard Map Thread. In this thread that is 2 years old i saw a quote.

peppy wrote:

There's no reason we can't push some of these graveyarded maps into ranked, if they are of exceptional quality.
Eight [490 style] is of perfect exceptional quality and completely playable as we have seen Happystick and Clementine fullcombo so why not reward such exceptional play on a exceptional quality map with pp for the player like in the regular system.

Sorry if my text walls are not helpful, but i want to try to help this feature get through.

TL;DR
Let gimmick maps get scoreboards, and bring back old approval system that will still give pp on playable maps.
Stefan

DoKito wrote:

- Is it "well" mapped? (This is pretty subjective, but the best solution would be to let the community decide that in some way)
The question is more if it requires changes. If there is something which is worth to change - which clearly makes this part/map better - then it should be done and not completely ignored. Of course this is up to the mapper and if it was the intention by the mapper to have it by this way then we leave it how it is.

the Standard of Gimmick maps should be high, to be fair. Spamming Ninja Spinners isn't good. Having Sliders outside of the screen isn't good too. in short: Common things should be followed (like some said already).
DoKito

Stefan wrote:

DoKito wrote:

- Is it "well" mapped? (This is pretty subjective, but the best solution would be to let the community decide that in some way)
The question is more if it requires changes. If there is something which is worth to change - which clearly makes this part/map better - then it should be done and not completely ignored. Of course this is up to the mapper and if it was the intention by the mapper to have it by this way then we leave it how it is.

the Standard of Gimmick maps should be high, to be fair. Spamming Ninja Spinners isn't good. Having Sliders outside of the screen isn't good too. in short: Common things should be followed (like some said already).
That's what i meant with "well mapped".
Granger

DoKito wrote:

- Only 1 difficulty (or max. 2, since this isn't supposed to be a whole mapset and if you want 1337 GDs you can go for rank anyways)
But why? That limint is completly arbitary and uneccesary. Look at maps like BlythE and this Jubeat recreation (I think it was sisters noise?). Those imitate a different game and come with a full difficulty spread. Why do they need to have only one difficulty (removing the tutorial and easier difficulties most likely)?
Garpo
It seems like everyone is tunnel visioned on "Omg standard maps with crazy patterns would be able to get ranked" and how it majorly effects standard.
Their are other game modes with very gimmicky maps. Examples from Taiko: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/514465 and https://osu.ppy.sh/b/379019
That are not based on complex patterns but on reading/understanding what is going on.
There are also EXTREMELY difficult maps as well that people made by Firce, Ishida, and sayaka- , etc. that would never be normally ranked.
It would give the top players something of actual "Difficulty" to try and get #1 on instead of going for DT.

Nobody cares about the other modes anyway
Lach

Garpo wrote:

It seems like everyone is tunnel visioned on "Omg standard maps with crazy patterns would be able to get ranked" and how it majorly effects standard.
Their are other game modes with very gimmicky maps. Examples from Taiko: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/514465 and https://osu.ppy.sh/b/379019
That are not based on complex patterns but on reading/understanding what is going on.
There are also EXTREMELY difficult maps as well that people made by Firce, Ishida, and sayaka- , etc. that would never be normally ranked.
It would give the top players something of actual "Difficulty" to try and get #1 on instead of going for DT.

Nobody cares about the other modes anyway
I touched on how awesome it would be for modes that aren't standard a few pages back.
Vuelo Eluko

Granger wrote:

DoKito wrote:

- Only 1 difficulty (or max. 2, since this isn't supposed to be a whole mapset and if you want 1337 GDs you can go for rank anyways)
But why? That limint is completly arbitary and uneccesary. Look at maps like BlythE and this Jubeat recreation (I think it was sisters noise?). Those imitate a different game and come with a full difficulty spread. Why do they need to have only one difficulty (removing the tutorial and easier difficulties most likely)?
More bandwidth.
Sea_Food

Riince wrote:

More bandwidth.
Come on now i think i seen this exact thing written in every suggestoin thread ever.
Why cant people just know that extra difficulties take next to no extra bandwhich. The mp3 file and BG is are thw only things that matters. If anything you should argue for min 5 difficulties because more bandwidth
Bara-
I don't think it's hard to choose maps for this category
As Ranking will probably go to 3 BN per map, and approval 4/5
This can go for 2 BN on a map
However, these maps should not give any pp, and thus get a completely different symbol
Heck, maybe even a different bubble if this becomes a thing
Stefan

baraatje123 wrote:

I don't think it's hard to choose maps for this category
As Ranking will probably go to 3 BN per map, and approval 4/5
This can go for 2 BN on a map
However, these maps should not give any pp, and thus get a completely different symbol
Heck, maybe even a different bubble if this becomes a thing
I think it's more than obvious that these maps should never give pp or being a choice for any competitive thing like official tournaments. Also there is no reason to add a new system for this. They should be handled like maps for approval since most of these gimmick maps would contain one Difficulty. The BNG is suitable enough to judge about this, if not then they get screwed. Simple like that.
Bara-
New symbol=/=New System
@Stefan
Stefan
Many other users mentioned the idea about a new system.
Kuro
looks at number of votes remaining...

"you have 72 votes remaining"

not going to but i considered spamming my votes on this, i would on do it on jb though

/me runs
arth
This idea has way too many flaws. Not only are there way too many unranked maps to have leaderboards for, but the idea basically promotes hacking for the fact that moderators aren't going to look through EVERY unranked map to ban them. At least spend some time thinking why your idea wouldn't work before you create a mob of players who are pissed off at Peppy when this idea doesn't go through...
Yauxo

Arthrighteous wrote:

This idea has way too many flaws. Not only are there way too many unranked maps to have leaderboards for, but the idea basically promotes hacking for the fact that moderators aren't going to look through EVERY unranked map to ban them. At least spend some time thinking why your idea wouldn't work before you create a mob of players who are pissed off at Peppy when this idea doesn't go through...
Maps would get selected (just like ranking maps works right now), not every unranked map will suddenly have a scoreboard.

Am I missing something in your post or dont people read the damn op?
Topic Starter
DeletedUser_4329079

Arthrighteous wrote:

This idea has way too many flaws. Not only are there way too many unranked maps to have leaderboards for, but the idea basically promotes hacking for the fact that moderators aren't going to look through EVERY unranked map to ban them. At least spend some time thinking why your idea wouldn't work before you create a mob of players who are pissed off at Peppy when this idea doesn't go through...
Please read the thread before talking about flaws, this isn't aimed to give scoreboards to all unranked maps.
arth
And who would decide what unranked maps are the ones that will get leaderboards? I'm sure the moderators don't want to spend more time then they are spending currently with getting maps through the ranking process.
_koinuri

Arthrighteous wrote:

And who would decide what unranked maps are the ones that will get leaderboards? I'm sure the moderators don't want to spend more time then they are spending currently with getting maps through the ranking process.
I'm sure this will work well with the moddingv2, where everyone with certain score will have ability to nominate maps to rank. Maybe add a feature to nominate for the "gimmick maps" in moddingv2?
arth

-[Koinuri] wrote:

Arthrighteous wrote:

And who would decide what unranked maps are the ones that will get leaderboards? I'm sure the moderators don't want to spend more time then they are spending currently with getting maps through the ranking process.
I'm sure this will work well with the moddingv2, where everyone with certain score will have ability to nominate maps to rank. Maybe add a feature to nominate for the "gimmick maps" in moddingv2?
Im not familiar with "moddingv2". Could you post a description or a link for it?
Yauxo

Arthrighteous wrote:

-[Koinuri] wrote:

I'm sure this will work well with the moddingv2, where everyone with certain score will have ability to nominate maps to rank. Maybe add a feature to nominate for the "gimmick maps" in moddingv2?
Im not familiar with "moddingv2". Could you post a description or a link for it?
Well, it's obvious that you're new.

In short, ranking works like this: Mapper finishes a map, people mod the map (make it better, point out flaws) and the BN (Beatmap Nominator) nominate the map to become ranked. Only these bew BN guys can rank a map, nobody else.
This is basically what would be with the new category as well.
arth

Yauxo wrote:

Well, it's obvious that you're new.

In short, ranking works like this: Mapper finishes a map, people mod the map (make it better, point out flaws) and the BN (Beatmap Nominator) nominate the map to become ranked. Only these bew BN guys can rank a map, nobody else.
This is basically what would be with the new category as well.
I'm not sure how not understanding a new modding system makes me new. What I lack understanding about regarding this system is how to actually become a "BN". They way I had understood it, a BAT would have to decide what gets a leaderboard. Given the aforementioned system, I think it could have some potential to work, but there's still the issue of maintaining fair play on every single mapset. I'm not at all against the idea but it seems that it would be pretty hard to maintain. :o Hopefully everyone can work out a way to make it work in a way that makes sense, but it seems to be something that will take a lot of thought and planning, beyond just pitching the feature request itself.

Also, regarding Beatmap Nominators, you also say the they nominate a map to be ranked, and then you go on to say that they are the ones who rank the map itself, which confuses me. It also confuses me when you say that there will be few Beatmap Nominators when -[Koinuri] mentions that anyone with a certain score will become a Beatmap Nominator. Instead of passive-aggressively hinting that i'm unknowledgeable in the subject, maybe you could help me better understand it?
Lust
Reply to Arthrighteous
Don't listen to what Yauxo said, that is not modding v2 as we know it. What he just described is the testing phase we are going through at the moment. He is correct in describing the process, maybe he just slipped on his word choice.

Modding v2 will reflect a more community-centric modding system where anyone who acquires a certain "modder score" will be able to nominate maps for rank. There will be plenty of these "nominators" since there will be no other requirement other than to reach that score - so in essence there will be lots of them (hell we already have 100+ at the moment). Want to see your favorite map ranked? Get your score up so you can nominate it!

Obviously this is just a small part of the new modding system; the old design docs that were posted by peppy described automated mod requests, modding queues, priority system, etc (see old test for it here and here). Haven't seen it in awhile but yea so don't quote me on any of this stuff.

Hope that clears things up a bit

Actually kind of interested to see how modding v2 will play a part in something like this
arth
That makes a lot more sense to me. If the community that qualified as nominators could maintain those leaderboards for unranked maps then this could be a very good idea. Hopefully as time passes, it will be easier to implement this feature request!~ :)
Yauxo

Arthrighteous wrote:

That makes a lot more sense to me. If the community that qualified as nominators could maintain those leaderboards for unranked maps then this could be a very good idea. Hopefully as time passes, it will be easier to implement this feature request!~ :)
This is exactly what I said, I just wanted to keep it simple in how to explain it (not get into detail about what exactly a BN is, just that these guys exist and do it) ><

Maps would get selected (just like ranking maps works right now)
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