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Is OD over-rated?

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46
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
Topic Starter
B1rd
So I started thinking about this recently when I noticed my top ranks were being replaced by easy 4.4 and even 4.2 star plays, just because they were 99%+ at OD8. They were not only easy to FC, they were easy to acc as well, because they were the type of map had a beat on most half notes. I have gotten <90% scores at OD7 with the same star ratings.
The thing is, difficulty to be accurate is very much dependent on the map as well as the OD, maybe even more so, yet OD is the only factor that is weighed in the PP system. And it's also a factor of why no-mod at higher levels of play is considered under-weighed; OD9 is pretty uncommon for no-mod maps, while it is the lowest common OD when mods are used. Look at the grossly disproportionate pp gotten from Scarlet Rose and Big Black FCs for example.

My point is that since only one of the two factors that influence accuracy is weighed, it unbalances PVPv2. What I think should happen is that PP from lower OD's should be brought slightly closer to line with PP from higher OD's.
Obviously this is just my opinion, I made this thread to get the though of more experienced players on this matter.
cheezstik
1,005 posts
Joined October 2013
cheezstik

B1rd wrote:

They were not only easy to FC, they were easy to acc as well, because they were the type of map had a beat on most half notes.
The PP system can't tell when something is easy to acc or not, it doesn't reward complicated rhythms etc. as far as I know. It would be good for this to be added in future I think, if possible.

B1rd wrote:

OD9 is pretty uncommon for no-mod maps, while it is the lowest common OD when mods are used.
I could be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure the PP system doesn't account for the OD increase from DT, since it's not the same type of OD increase.

B1rd wrote:

Look at the grossly disproportionate pp gotten from Scarlet Rose and Big Black FCs for example.
Those two maps would still be heavily underweighted even if they were a higher OD. What makes scarlet rose so underweighted is it's lack of spacing, what makes that map hard is it's very hard to read patterns and rhythm. And tom94 explained before, what makes Big Black so hard (other than the spaced streams at the end) is the sliders, and unforunately the system underrates sliders, since it treats it as if you took the shortest possible paths between each slider, making it worth much less. He said something about not being able to change this, or suddenly those sliders that go back and forth really quickly in the same spot would suddenly be worth a lot.

There are so many examples of this flaw in the system, for example, DJ TOTTO feat. Sunao Yoshikawa - Arousing on extreme is worth 129PP for an SS, while I think it could easily be worth 170+. What makes that map hard is how hard it's rhythm is, and it's complex patterns. Even on the hardest difficulty, rrtyui was one of the few able to 99% HDHR it, and it doesn't even appear on his top list (<320pp), while it is easily one of the hardest maps in the game IMO.
E m i
E m i

cheezstik wrote:

I could be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure the PP system doesn't account for the OD increase from DT, since it's not the same type of OD increase.
If it accounts for the AR increase then it probably accounts for the OD increase.
I don't think that OD is overrated, but it might be increasing the PP gain from already overrated maps. Still, it depends on the player - I've seen OD7 FC's with 82-85% acc (i bet you know the maps) and most people who don't practice accuracy specifically can't get 94+ acc on OD10.
(94% acc pp is something like 55-60% of the pp for an SS)
Bauxe
1,624 posts
Joined August 2012
Bauxe

cheezstik wrote:

I could be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure the PP system doesn't account for the OD increase from DT, since it's not the same type of OD increase.
Pretty sure it does.

The reason high accuracy on high OD gives so much extra PP is because osu! is a rhythm game, not a go fast game.
E m i
E m i

Bauxe wrote:

osu! is a rhythm game
>implying
winber1
4,520 posts
Joined February 2010
winber1
have you tried or ever gotten good accuracy on od10

like bro that shit is hard

shit son
Dexus
982 posts
Joined July 2009
Dexus
Star rating should be the main focus since that's how physically hard a map is; this is where 90% of pp should come from, but most of the time it's less than half of what gets accounted for.

Hard rock should be 10% to 20% at most of what gets added to pp. DT should be 66% at most since that's the difference in speed you're playing on a map. hidden should depend on how notes are stacked and on sliders since that's the only challenging thing about hidden, possibly 5 to 15%.

Weighting on top performances would balance this out to prevent farming and players would have to progress through playing physically harder and faster songs. I honestly don't see the issue with this kind of change. This would provide a lot more balance in the ranking system. My topic on the way weighting is listed should also be taken into consideration as well.
cheezstik
1,005 posts
Joined October 2013
cheezstik
Yeah but it's a different type of OD increase, which is why a DT OD7 feels so much easier than a no mod OD8 , and same with DT OD8 and nomod OD9 etc.

Idk, I am just theory crafting here, but unless someone makes a map and then makes the same map which is just a 1.5x sped up version with increased AR and OD as if it was a DT version of the original map, and somehow see which gave more PP, we can't really tell.
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf

cheezstik wrote:

Yeah but it's a different type of OD increase, which is why a DT OD7 feels so much easier than a no mod OD8 , and same with DT OD8 and nomod OD9 etc.
not really no
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen

Dexus wrote:

Star rating should be the main focus since that's how physically hard a map is; this is where 90% of pp should come from, but most of the time it's less than half of what gets accounted for.
actually, a 5 star map with od9 would have about 60-70% of it's pp come from speed and aim
the reason accuracy appears to make so much difference is because you already get close to max aim and speed just for fcing. every extra you add is from accuracy.
a 200pp score with 96% acc may give you 1pp while a 250pp score SS will give you 40, making it worth 40 times as much, even tho you only added 25% to the actual worth.

GoldenWolf wrote:

cheezstik wrote:

Yeah but it's a different type of OD increase, which is why a DT OD7 feels so much easier than a no mod OD8 , and same with DT OD8 and nomod OD9 etc.
not really no
the reason why DT feels easier is because the maps are techincally easier. they are more mapped to 1/2 notes and burst streams compared to maps on that difficulty with nomod. their difficulty (star rating) comes mostly from their speed.
in the end an od7+dt map is the same as an od9 map
x_Co0ki420ezi_x
178 posts
Joined November 2012
x_Co0ki420ezi_x

B1rd wrote:

I made this thread to get the though of more experienced players on this matter.
Good players don't come on these shitty forums. All we have is dickheads and shitters.
E m i
E m i

thedamntrain wrote:

Good players don't come on these shitty forums. All we have is dickheads and shitters.
I read that in peppy's voice. Pretty interesting experience.
Almost
2,154 posts
Joined May 2012
Almost

cheezstik wrote:

Yeah but it's a different type of OD increase, which is why a DT OD7 feels so much easier than a no mod OD8 , and same with DT OD8 and nomod OD9 etc.
That really depends on the map.
tfg50
149 posts
Joined September 2013
tfg50
Yes. I have a 214pp score in a 4.45 star map (that star is nomod) play with ar just because of the acc. The map is so easy that when I was testing if my pc can stream I fced it first try (less acc but I can just retry to get better acc) while I had my fps capped on 400 less fps than I'm used to.

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/166452?m=0 99,50% acc with hr

Now when you look at nomod, I have a 1x100 932 combo in this https://osu.ppy.sh/b/130500?m=0 (DAT SLIDER T.T) and it is worth just 190 pp. IMO this score is WAY more impressive than that other one with hr. Even if i had got a SS on it, it wouldn't have given much more pp. 20x max. When you look at the OD guess what, it is OD7.....
winber1
4,520 posts
Joined February 2010
winber1

thedamntrain wrote:

B1rd wrote:

I made this thread to get the though of more experienced players on this matter.
Good players don't come on these shitty forums. All we have is dickheads and shitters.
and all the good players aren't helpful anymore ahahaheahaaeahahaeaha
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf

tfg50 wrote:

Yes. I have a 214pp score in a 4.45 star map (that star is nomod) play with ar just because of the acc. The map is so easy that when I was testing if my pc can stream I fced it first try (less acc but I can just retry to get better acc) while I had my fps capped on 400 less fps than I'm used to.

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/166452?m=0 99,50% acc with hr

Now when you look at nomod, I have a 1x100 932 combo in this https://osu.ppy.sh/b/130500?m=0 (DAT SLIDER T.T) and it is worth just 190 pp. IMO this score is WAY more impressive than that other one with hr. Even if i had got a SS on it, it wouldn't have given much more pp. 20x max. When you look at the OD guess what, it is OD7.....
"ermargerd I get more rewarded being accurate on OD9.8 than OD7!!!"
Gumpy
2,418 posts
Joined June 2014
Gumpy

[ Momiji ] wrote:

thedamntrain wrote:

Good players don't come on these shitty forums. All we have is dickheads and shitters.
I read that in peppy's voice. Pretty interesting experience.
what does peppy sound like?
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz

winber1 wrote:

have you tried or ever gotten good accuracy on od10

like bro that shit is hard

shit son
Binwer with the endless words of wisdom.
tfg50
149 posts
Joined September 2013
tfg50

GoldenWolf wrote:

"ermargerd I get more rewarded being accurate on OD9.8 than OD7!!!"
When you look at the difficulty of the maps it is a big difference indeed... 4.7 stars vs 5.5 stars
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf

tfg50 wrote:

GoldenWolf wrote:

"ermargerd I get more rewarded being accurate on OD9.8 than OD7!!!"
When you look at the difficulty of the maps it is a big difference indeed... 4.7 stars vs 5.5 stars
it might be rated as a 5.5 star map, but the only reson it's rated so high is solely because of that deathstream, which is actually easy because of how compressed it is, it takes no aim at all, just mash your keys since it's OD7 and you just magically SS'd a 128 circles stream.
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
Topic Starter
B1rd

Bauxe wrote:

osu! is a rhythm game, not a go fast game.
it's a fast game under the pretense of being a rhythm game.
tfg50
149 posts
Joined September 2013
tfg50

It is still 5.14 stars after completely removing the deathstream and that is much harder than getting 99,00% acc on that 4.7 star map while being worth about 50-60% pp.

Well, the difficulty of those 2 scores are indeed very different and the only way to measure that kind of stuff better is with something more like the tp system (measuring aim/speed/acc separately). So until pp goes into that direction acc players will say that acc is overrated.
[-Cloud-]
438 posts
Joined June 2013
[-Cloud-]

winber1 wrote:

thedamntrain wrote:

Good players don't come on these shitty forums. All we have is dickheads and shitters.
and all the good players aren't helpful anymore ahahaheahaaeahahaeaha
I don't know any good player who isn't helpful.
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen

tfg50 wrote:

Well, the difficulty of those 2 scores are indeed very different and the only way to measure that kind of stuff better is with something more like the tp system (measuring aim/speed/acc separately). So until pp goes into that direction acc players will say that acc is overrated.
that's exactly what it does, it's just not visible for us.
byfar
1,186 posts
Joined July 2014
byfar
Honestly without the OD increase, HR would be far easier than it is now. Like a LOT

Playing well on high OD isn't is as easy as it seems, so I think the pp gain for high OD is perfectly reasonable

Osu is purely a rhythm game. Being able to aim and time your tapping accurately is a skill
Kittles
68 posts
Joined April 2014
Kittles
If anything od is underrated and dt is overrated. However, accuracy on dt is still harder than no mod (for example od 8 dt is way more difficult than od 9 no mod, in most cases) except for the fact that you can get tons of pp with low accuracy from a dt that has a way high star difficulty than it should.
tfg50
149 posts
Joined September 2013
tfg50

silmarilen wrote:

tfg50 wrote:

Well, the difficulty of those 2 scores are indeed very different and the only way to measure that kind of stuff better is with something more like the tp system (measuring aim/speed/acc separately). So until pp goes into that direction acc players will say that acc is overrated.
that's exactly what it does, it's just not visible for us.
well... not exactly. TP had rankings on each category as well as everything together. PP has just the one with everything mixed up.
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz
CS5.2 isn't that bad and AR10 is a joke so HR basically is just the OD increase (unless you are an aim god and play HR on cs5 maps).
timemon
Beatmap Nominator
1,305 posts
Joined November 2012
timemon

chainpullz wrote:

CS5.2 isn't that bad and AR10 is a joke so HR basically is just the OD increase (unless you are an aim god and play HR on cs5 maps).
AR10 is no joke. I literally freeze when I play HR. CS5.2 is super hard for me, imagine koigokoro DT but with CS5.2. I would miss everywhere.
tokaku
275 posts
Joined May 2013
tokaku

chainpullz wrote:

CS5.2 isn't that bad and AR10 is a joke so HR basically is just the OD increase (unless you are an aim god and play HR on cs5 maps).
I want to disagree with this so much but it's so true at the same time
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz

timemon wrote:

chainpullz wrote:

CS5.2 isn't that bad and AR10 is a joke so HR basically is just the OD increase (unless you are an aim god and play HR on cs5 maps).
AR10 is no joke. I literally freeze when I play HR. CS5.2 is super hard for me, imagine koigokoro DT but with CS5.2. I would miss everywhere.
I have no sympathy for greedy DT farmers.
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
Topic Starter
B1rd
are you joking? otherwise that'd make you a hypocrite.
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz

B1rd wrote:

are you joking? otherwise that'd make you a hypocrite.
I play DT maybe once every 10 days. All of my DT scores are fairly easy maps. DT happens to be over-rated for easier maps and thus my top ranks happen to be DT. When I'm messing around and playing DT and I get a really good score, I feel inclined to spend a few retries trying to get a fc. It's been like 2 months since I've actually farmed DT. Pretty much anything in my top ranks that is more recent has been replaying maps I've already fc'd to improve accuracy. In fact you'll notice most of the recent stuff in my top ranks is HR.

More to the point, I have never complained about freezing up on AR10 maps so I don't see how I could be a hypocrite here.
cheezstik
1,005 posts
Joined October 2013
cheezstik

chainpullz wrote:

timemon wrote:

AR10 is no joke. I literally freeze when I play HR. CS5.2 is super hard for me, imagine koigokoro DT but with CS5.2. I would miss everywhere.
I have no sympathy for greedy DT farmers.
I don't know if you're just messing around or seriously trying to put down people that use DT, but really, half of the top 100 (probably more like 80+% but I can't be bothered checking) mainly use DT, so can we really look down upon the top players? And if you're going to say "but they're actually good unlike us", then you could say the same about HR, or even no-mod players that aren't in the top 100, cos that would basically be looking down upon people for not being good in general, and in a couple years from now when people are at 12k+ PP, our top players now could be looked down upon in the same way by the new top players going by that logic.
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
Topic Starter
B1rd

chainpullz wrote:

More to the point, I have never complained about freezing up on AR10 maps so I don't see how I could be a hypocrite here.
you're a hypocrite because you accuse people of farming when you have farm ranks yourself.

but your actual error is using the term 'DT farming' which pretty much implies that all DT and anyone who plays it are 'farmers'. It seems you have a thing for judging people inferior for their top ranks or playing what they like to play, which is just the wrong attitude.
tokaku
275 posts
Joined May 2013
tokaku

chainpullz wrote:

I have no sympathy for greedy DT farmers.
I think you mean that he just sucks at the game.
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz
The difference between subject A and those people you are talking about is those people A) don't complain about freezing up on AR10, and B) don't compare cs5.2 at 1.0x speed to cs5.2 at 1.5x speed. My definition of DT farmer is someone who undeservedly got their rank and did it by abusing the overweightedness of DT. 2 months ago when I farmed DT to get my rank, I was undeserving of it. Fast forward 2 months and I now believe I do actually deserve to be where I am based on recent improvement. I'd like to think I've graduated from being a DT farmer.

So more or less this:

tokaku wrote:

chainpullz wrote:

I have no sympathy for greedy DT farmers.
I think you mean that he just sucks at the game.
cheezstik
1,005 posts
Joined October 2013
cheezstik

chainpullz wrote:

The difference between subject A and those people you are talking about is those people A) don't complain about freezing up on AR10, and B) don't compare cs5.2 at 1.0x speed to cs5.2 at 1.5x speed. My definition of DT farmer is someone who undeservedly got their rank and did it by abusing the overweightedness of DT. 2 months ago when I farmed DT to get my rank, I was undeserving of it. Fast forward 2 months and I now believe I do actually deserve to be where I am based on recent improvement. I'd like to think I've graduated from being a DT farmer.
DT remote control (current highest top pp song) is still overweighted though, DT as a whole is still overweighted for most maps.

It's not that "DT farmers" don't deserve their rank, it's that they are closer to their max potential rank compared to their skill than others that play no-mod or HR are, they aren't overrated, others are just underrated. If they really didn't deserve their rank, they wouldn't be there, it's not their fault, and they shouldn't be labelled as overrated or put down just because others can't or don't care about getting to a higher rank where they deserve to be, just because the PP system overweights DT.

It's the same as people that don't care about PP at all and don't bother retrying for FC's, They could be where others are if they actually went for FC's (in the other case DT), but they don't, and that doesn't make people that FC overrated, it just makes them underrated.

If you could be at a higher rank by playing these easy DT maps, then do it, otherwise don't complain about others being where they don't deserve to be, if you just don't feel like getting that rank.
timemon
Beatmap Nominator
1,305 posts
Joined November 2012
timemon
DT is like no mod but with more pp!!!!!111!!!
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