AR 10 "helps" when you hit high BPM's because it reduces the amount of clutter/objects on screen.

Usually AR is completely up the to player. Some prefer AR8 over 10 - a good example would be Remote Control in that sense.
Imo, IMO, Remote Control is alot easier with (HD)HR when comparing it to nomod. Youre able to focus on the jumps more and you'll be less confused by more objects on the screen.
On the other side, some people find it easier to see multiple objects and to memorize them like this.

Being able to read AR10 is pretty nice as this allows you to read HDHR for pretty much every map that exists, but its not really necessary to improve - generally speaking.

I also tend to put people into groups. Those, who can read AR9.x for DT scores and those, who can read AR10 for HDHR

Higher the AR, easier the reading becomes. So once you get used to AR10, it will be much easier on your eyes.

wildones9 wrote:

Higher the AR, easier the reading becomes. So once you get used to AR10, it will be much easier on your eyes.

This is not true at all. The better you get at this game, the more you realize low AR is not so bad at all. I do much better on AR 8 maps than I do on AR 10 most of the time, and I agree that AR 10 is not so bad. Though on AR 10.3 it's near impossible for me to FC difficult insanes (though I know some people are great at reading it) and AR 11 is hands down the hardest existing AR. It is true that playing higher AR will make you adjusted to reacting quickly and in turn make it more difficult for you to play lower AR, but the better you are at high AR (the better reaction time you have) the more easily you should be able to lower AR as well. Anything lower than AR 8 is torture though.. I will admit to that.

Lach wrote:

I watched a stream once, and I saw some rank 48k person playing all the caren_sk maps with nofail and missing 50% of the notes, and everyone in the chat was like wow so pro so fast omg. There's quite a bit of difference between a competent player playing hard rock, and retard flailing a tablet to his favourite unranked map.

This is what bothers me. I don't even know what half the people mean anymore when they say they can read AR10. Now they start applying numerous degrees of proficiency of playing AR10 instead of just "I can read it" or "I can't." If you have trouble even reacting, I'd say it's wrong to assume you can read it just because there's so few notes on the screen, causing no clutter whatsoever.

Lach wrote:

I watched a stream once, and I saw some rank 48k person playing all the caren_sk maps with nofail and missing 50% of the notes, and everyone in the chat was like wow so pro so fast omg. There's quite a bit of difference between a competent player playing hard rock, and retard flailing a tablet to his favourite unranked map.

a C on airman is considered pro in the 40k rank community too.

Also, I think it's because most viewers just don't play the game. Anything would impress them

there are no pros in this game

we all suck

it is a question of who sucks the most

winber1 wrote:

there are no pros in this game

we all suck

it is a question of who sucks the most

me

winber1 wrote:

there are no pros in this game

we all suck

it is a question of who sucks the most

By this logic, the further down in ranks the better you are in this competition.

Let's start losing PP.

Songs with 250bpm and higher are a pain in the ass for me with ar9, Ar10 makes that easier because you have less notes at the time, i believe that any map higher than 250bpm should be ar10, but well thats me..

Kaeru wrote:

wildones9 wrote:

Higher the AR, easier the reading becomes. So once you get used to AR10, it will be much easier on your eyes.

This is not true at all. The better you get at this game, the more you realize low AR is not so bad at all. I do much better on AR 8 maps than I do on AR 10 most of the time, and I agree that AR 10 is not so bad. Though on AR 10.3 it's near impossible for me to FC difficult insanes (though I know some people are great at reading it) and AR 11 is hands down the hardest existing AR. It is true that playing higher AR will make you adjusted to reacting quickly and in turn make it more difficult for you to play lower AR, but the better you are at high AR (the better reaction time you have) the more easily you should be able to lower AR as well. Anything lower than AR 8 is torture though.. I will admit to that.

It is true. As long as you react to it, higher AR is easier. If you find AR10 harder than AR8 on an identical map, then you can't read AR 10 properly yet.

I just want to debunk a few things with my personal experience with AR 10.

When "pros" play with AR 10, it's because they've most likely been accustomed to AR 10.3 and in rare cases, AR 11.

The way things work is AR 10 actually helps more with reading lower AR's than AR 10 itself.

You can look at it in the same way you look at AR 9 and AR 8. After "learning" to play AR 9 you suddenly feel like AR 8 is "way too slow". The reality is that you've never learned to read AR 8 in the first place, you just learned how to react to AR 9 and JUST STARTED on reading AR 8.

This is the benefit of "learning" AR 10 for the average player. Once you've learned how to react and play with AR 10, AR 9 starts to look a bit slow too, now at that point you can finally start to learn how to read AR 9.

Now we go up 1 more step, to where the pros play AR 10. It's most likely after they've accustomed to react to AR 10.3 (and for some cases AR 11) that they can finally start learning to read AR 10.

The reason why they would recommend playing AR 10 is because it would greatly benefit your reading ability for AR 9.

B1rd wrote:

It is true. As long as you react to it, higher AR is easier. If you find AR10 harder than AR8 on an identical map, then you can't read AR 10 properly yet.

Please explain this logic? It makes no sense. It's the exact opposite of what you said. As long as you can react properly, lower AR is easier. If you find low AR harder than AR 10 on an identical map, then you aren't good at reading low AR. Low AR is always easier if you can read it..

The reason it's easier is because you're given much more time to react, read the map and move the cursor. Even if you can read AR 10, this shouldn't mean that it's "easier" than lower AR. I am perfectly capable of reading AR 10 and I still can get a much higher score on AR 8.

Kaeru wrote:

B1rd wrote:

It is true. As long as you react to it, higher AR is easier. If you find AR10 harder than AR8 on an identical map, then you can't read AR 10 properly yet.

Please explain this logic? It makes no sense. It's the exact opposite of what you said. As long as you can react properly, lower AR is easier. If you find low AR harder than AR 10 on an identical map, then you aren't good at reading low AR. Low AR is always easier if you can read it..

The reason it's easier is because you're given much more time to react, read the map and move the cursor. Even if you can read AR 10, this shouldn't mean that it's "easier" than lower AR. I am perfectly capable of reading AR 10 and I still can get a much higher score on AR 8.

No, it's the opposite of what you said. Lower AR means more circles that you have to read and comprehend making it more difficult. AR10 is easier to read because there's less objects.

Kaeru wrote:

Please explain this logic? It makes no sense. It's the exact opposite of what you said. As long as you can react properly, lower AR is easier. If you find low AR harder than AR 10 on an identical map, then you aren't good at reading low AR. Low AR is always easier if you can read it..

The reason it's easier is because you're given much more time to react, read the map and move the cursor. Even if you can read AR 10, this shouldn't mean that it's "easier" than lower AR. I am perfectly capable of reading AR 10 and I still can get a much higher score on AR 8.

You don't need more time to react. For players who can read both, they have ample time to react and it's basically reading, not reacting, it makes no difference. The difference is the amount of objects requiring interpretation or "reading" and that's where less objects is better, especially as BPM's get higher. It's still reading, yes, but there's 2 parts to it (actually more, but that's just pertaining to this example).

I also have the same problem, easily beating a score if the AR is lower. But that's because AR10 is not my forte, or played much compared. I've spoken to friends of mine who play high AR a lot, and they can't consistently FC the same slower stuff that I can. Some can't even play HR without HD because the approach circles being zippy is confusing to them. It's not about reactions, it's about interpretation of what you see, and for them, it's a bit of an overload of circles compared to the simplicity of what they play the most. Once you get used to lots of objects, it's not easily forgotten. But most never do.

Bare in mind that there are SO FEW actual AR10 maps. This means that they are only AR8/9 maps with mods, which are mapped appropriately for THAT AR regarding readability. When you put HR on, it means that there will always be less interfering objects.

Kaeru wrote:

Low AR is always easier if you can read it.

If.

Bassist Vinyl wrote:

Lach wrote:

I watched a stream once, and I saw some rank 48k person playing all the caren_sk maps with nofail and missing 50% of the notes, and everyone in the chat was like wow so pro so fast omg. There's quite a bit of difference between a competent player playing hard rock, and retard flailing a tablet to his favourite unranked map.

imo best way to get used to ar10 is hard rock the ar8-9 maps you already have because the unranked variety of ar10's, for the most part, are designed for people who already mastered ar10. also isnt calling them a 'retard' a bit much? they were just having fun their own way

yea, the retards are the people that go "wow!" xD

iderekmc wrote:

Bassist Vinyl wrote:

imo best way to get used to ar10 is hard rock the ar8-9 maps you already have because the unranked variety of ar10's, for the most part, are designed for people who already mastered ar10. also isnt calling them a 'retard' a bit much? they were just having fun their own way

yea, the retards are the people that go "wow!" xD

Yeah lol they are so n00b le xD

8^)

pls leave

Kaeru wrote:

B1rd wrote:

It is true. As long as you react to it, higher AR is easier. If you find AR10 harder than AR8 on an identical map, then you can't read AR 10 properly yet.

Please explain this logic? It makes no sense. It's the exact opposite of what you said. As long as you can react properly, lower AR is easier. If you find low AR harder than AR 10 on an identical map, then you aren't good at reading low AR. Low AR is always easier if you can read it..

The reason it's easier is because you're given much more time to react, read the map and move the cursor. Even if you can read AR 10, this shouldn't mean that it's "easier" than lower AR. I am perfectly capable of reading AR 10 and I still can get a much higher score on AR 8.

Any ar is easy if you can read it

iderekmc wrote:

yea, the retards are the people that go "wow!" xD

Your avatar perfectly shows, how I see you as a person. Good choice.

winber1 wrote:

there are no pros in this game

we all suck

it is a question of who sucks the most

There are no pros in osu! for completely different reasons.

no money in osu. inb4 heppyticks stream and www having his face on some random mouse producer page

RaneFire wrote:

Bare in mind that there are SO FEW actual AR10 maps. This means that they are only AR8/9 maps with mods, which are mapped appropriately for THAT AR regarding readability. When you put HR on, it means that there will always be less interfering objects.

So AR is a difficulty slider.

It's not more difficult once you learn how to read and comprehend it. It might look more difficult to some people, but that's because they don't know how to read it. It's really not that difficult, you just have to look at the flow of the map as the objects appear and follow the flow while tapping to the rhythm. The problem most people have is they react too quickly to the objects and hit everything too early. This doesn't make higher AR easier in my opinion, it just makes it easier to learn. Lower AR is more difficult to master but once you do it should be easier.

If you practice playing at any AR, you'll eventually be able to read that AR. People who can only read ar10 probably only play ar10. Most people don't practice low AR anymore, that's why a lot of people can't play it.

-Soba- wrote:

If you practice playing at any AR, you'll eventually be able to read that AR. People who can only read ar10 probably only play ar10. Most people don't practice low AR anymore, that's why a lot of people can't play it.

Agreed. I find lower AR easier to react to but I guess it's not the same for everyone. It is possible to play any song at any AR as long as you practice it enough.

As much as I desire to learn AR 10 I still refuse to and tell my self it's a useless skill because I can't play stuff like big black image material 7th expansion I'm far from fast enough

Read things above AR9. There's no secret, you just have to do it until you're good at it. I started by DTing low-star AR8s.

Cherry Blossom wrote:

Teach me how to read AR>9, i can't read anything above AR9.
Any tips ? ;w;

Idk, the way I learned was HRing AR8-9 stuff I could play easily no mod until I could do it. I have horrendous reaction time, but it still worked for me - though it tooks hundreds of plays.

Blueprint wrote:

As much as I desire to learn AR 10 I still refuse to and tell my self it's a useless skill because I can't play stuff like big black image material 7th expansion I'm far from fast enough

This. Learning to read ar10 is useless if you can't even play the songs that are going to be ar10, lol. It's like me and 10.3; a huge majority of ar9 maps I have are still way too hard for me with dt.

Rewben2 wrote:

Blueprint wrote:

As much as I desire to learn AR 10 I still refuse to and tell my self it's a useless skill because I can't play stuff like big black image material 7th expansion I'm far from fast enough

This. Learning to read ar10 is useless if you can't even play the songs that are going to be ar10, lol. It's like me and 10.3; a huge majority of ar9 maps I have are still way too hard for me with dt.

Same goes for me. 10.3 feels pretty overwhelming compared to AR10 as example. I don't even get how people manage it to react/read properly.

Rewben2 wrote:

It's like me and 10.3; a huge majority of ar9 maps I have are still way too hard for me with dt.

Similar reasoning here. There's only about 5-10 AR9 maps out of everything, that I actually have the speed for DT.

But AR10 is different, it's Hard Rock for starters (on 95% of the maps you will play with AR10), which doesn't modify the speed of the song, just its difficulty settings, which includes more than just AR. You'll also never learn to read it unless you start playing it, but you need decent accuracy and aiming skills first, which will then be further developed by Hard Rock. In that sense, it is not useless, since it picks up where nomod leaves off.

NarrillNezzurh wrote:

RaneFire wrote:

Bare in mind that there are SO FEW actual AR10 maps. This means that they are only AR8/9 maps with mods, which are mapped appropriately for THAT AR regarding readability. When you put HR on, it means that there will always be less interfering objects.

So AR is a difficulty slider.

You do realise by saying this, it means that AR increasing from 8/9 to 10 is a difficulty reduction in terms of reading interfering objects.

A scenario in which this applies:
- Player starts playing osu! - can read up to AR6.
- Learns AR7, likes AR7 because it's comfortable to read vs his reaction speed.
- Learns AR8, now likes AR8 because it's comfortable to read vs his reaction speed. AR6 starts to look like unnecessarily long delays since he can pay attention to each note faster and starts having to read more notes than needed.
- Learns AR9, now likes AR9 because it's comfortable to read vs his reaction speed. AR7 starts to feel slow too now (same reason).
- AR10 however, teeters on the line of reading and reaction speed, and seems impossible to learn at first. However, once you get faster at processing, that boundary shifts and AR10 falls within the comfort zone. AR10 is now comfortable to read vs his reaction speed, BUT because it's so proportionally close to that line of reaction speed, everything (AR9,8,7) starts to look slow. i.e. the effective difference between AR10 and AR9 is ~3 times greater than AR9 is to AR8.

The end result is our perception of the game changes as we improve, and low AR reading needs to be retained through practicing it, since the variations between reading and reaction speed increase, which only really becomes a problem if you stop playing it completely, because you only remember what it was like when you were learning the AR (the fastest you could play). It's an odd thing to classify as a difficulty, since it only applies to those who have yet to learn higher AR's. There is always an upper limit though.

Edit: The difficulty increases in both directions, with your favourite and most comfortable current AR representing "zero" on the scale, since that's where your reading and reaction speeds are closest to equal. As you go down the scale, reactions are too fast (hitting early), reading is too slow (recognise too many notes, patterns get more complicated to see and take longer to distinguish). As you go up, reactions are too slow (hitting late), reading is too fast (can't recognise enough notes at once to string together a pattern in your mind, or even a line).

RaneFire wrote:

NarrillNezzurh wrote:

So AR is a difficulty slider.

You do realise by saying this, it means that AR increasing from 8/9 to 10 is a difficulty reduction in terms of reading interfering objects.

I realize that you've said that.

If AR10 on a map originally mapped to AR9 is easier to read because you're adding space to a map that was designed to make use of less space, then maps designed for AR10 have, as a rule, less space than AR9 maps when the two are read at the same AR. In other words, AR10 maps are universally more dense than AR9 maps without respect to AR, and therefore generally more difficult. This link between intended AR and object density paints AR as little more than a compensatory tool used by mappers and players alike to pull maps toward a central difficulty level, but it does so out of an implied necessity stemming from the inherent difficulty of the map.

Basically, the higher the AR the more difficult the map. Your words, not mine.

NarrillNezzurh wrote:

RaneFire wrote:

You do realise by saying this, it means that AR increasing from 8/9 to 10 is a difficulty reduction in terms of reading interfering objects.

I realize that you've said that.

If AR10 on a map originally mapped to AR9 is easier to read because you're adding space to a map that was designed to make use of less space, then maps designed for AR10 have, as a rule, less space than AR9 maps when the two are read at the same AR. In other words, AR10 maps are universally more dense than AR9 maps without respect to AR, and therefore generally more difficult. This link between intended AR and object density paints AR as little more than a compensatory tool used by mappers and players alike to pull maps toward a central difficulty level, but it does so out of an implied necessity stemming from the inherent difficulty of the map.

Basically, the higher the AR the more difficult the map. Your words, not mine.

Sure, I see the logic, but I refer to Hard Rock in the text above that as 95% of the cases where people play AR10. There are less than 20 ranked AR10 maps, far too few of the entire pool of maps that people actually play at AR10, and half of those 20 didn't even need to be AR10 either. Hard Rock is where most people play their AR10 and some take the time to find more unranked AR10 maps, but there are too few cases where it's use can be justified (hence unranked). For most players it is easier to access AR10 with HR, since maps where it's use is justified as the default setting would be way too difficult for many people. But they are difficult maps which use AR10, not difficult maps because they're AR10. The latter is the logic I see you applying and I don't agree. I think the map was already hard to begin with and AR10 is the appropriate AR for it, not because it makes the map more difficult. It makes it more readable... appropriate. The map is the difficulty increase.

I feel like explaining this can go on forever. If you don't get what I'm saying by now, I give up.

RaneFire wrote:

But they are difficult maps which use AR10, not difficult maps because they're AR10. The latter is the logic I see you applying and I don't agree.

That would be because I'm applying it facetiously. I don't believe mappers tend to use AR as a compensatory tool or that a map's AR tends to follow from its difficulty. Increasing AR simply doesn't reduce difficulty as a general trend given that only a very small subset of players can read it with the same efficiency as AR9. It's true that most AR10 maps are insanely difficult, but I would argue that those maps use AR10 because for the vast majority of players it's more difficult than if the map were AR9, not less.

Keep in mind, I'm not disputing what you may or may not actually think. I'm calling you out on your wording.

10.3 is overwhelming because there are few maps at or under 220 bpm and manageable. Youd have to be able to play 240 to 250 bpm really well before you could tackle 10.3 with high accuracy.

Reading through the ar9 "clutter" is quite a lot of fun, really.
I understand that if you never play ar9, it'll all feel like "Renard - Banned forever", but I would definitely recommend getting used to both ar9 and ar10 and not stick to only the high or the lower.

My trick for AR7 is to leave background dim at 50%. I don't know if it can help others though, since I've played like that for more than 2 years, but it can slow down your reading reaction ^^

The problem with me is that I can read 10.3 (on AR9 with DT) quite well. I can also move to alot of notes in time, the only problem is that I cant single or stream fast enough for most songs. The only one slow enough for me is Magic Girl.

DatPenguinTho wrote:

The problem with me is that I can read 10.3 (on AR9 with DT) quite well. I can also move to alot of notes in time, the only problem is that I cant single or stream fast enough for most songs. The only one slow enough for me is Magic Girl.

If your capabilities is hindered by a different ar, then you can't read that ar.

DatPenguinTho wrote:

The problem with me is that I can read 10.3 (on AR9 with DT) quite well. I can also move to alot of notes in time, the only problem is that I cant single or stream fast enough for most songs. The only one slow enough for me is Magic Girl.

seeing every note on screen != being able to read