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C-C-C-Combo Breaker -- Gameplay & Score Concern

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This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +0
I Give Up
1,648 posts
Joined January 2014
Topic Starter
I Give Up
This is feature request regarding gameplay and scoring for osu!standard. A good question to keep in mind while reading this is, what effect would this have at 'pro level' (championships and tournaments) and would this be an improvement or a hazard that must be avoided at all costs? Discuss :D

Feature Request Summary
  1. [Gameplay] Combo multiplier no longer breaks if cursor is within acceptable radius and player taps on time.
  2. [Gameplay] Catching the tail end of sliders no longer break combo as well (currently only first note).
  3. [Gameplay] Still no score given.
  4. [Clarity] Still play DJ scratch sound (hit0.wav).
  5. [Gameplay] Still apply health penalty.
  6. [Gameplay] Combo multiplier does not increase.
  7. [Gameplay] Accuracy percentage still counts it as a miss.
  8. [Clarity] In-game displays current misses.
  9. [Clarity] New sound for combo breaker.
  10. [Shader Effects] Screen flashes red for combo breaker (similar to low health warning).
  11. [Mod] Combo Breaker -- game ends if combo multiplier is broken, comes before Sudden Death.
Context
I have friends and family who are interested in the game but are discouraged by its "difficulty". As an example my sister thinks she hasn't gotten any better, even though her accuracy and aim has actually improved, she just couldn't beat her old score because she kept messing up the middle section. There is so much emphasis on score and people really do take this seriously. I personally don't have a problem with it, I just feel that it is still in that stage of improvement.

I've come up with a series of suggestions with the intention of decreasing the skill floor while leaving the skill ceiling virtually untouched. So that scores reflect more of our overall skill, rather than the current complete emphasis on perfect/almost perfect combos. This feature will make it harder to fully break combos, while still allowing the combo to crumble over time with each minor mistake.

I was inspired by the fact that missing sliders will sometimes not break the combo. I noticed this happens when you only catch the first note of a short slider, you can test this for yourself, just single tap without holding. This is proof enough that the idea mentioned is quite feasible, given that a similar feature is already implemented.

Concerns
  1. Combo breaker what? OK cool story bro...
English is not my first language although I do try my best. However if I was bad at explaining myself then I am sorry. Click the "show illustration" below to see my attempt at a graphic representation.
Show illustration
Combo multiplier no longer breaks if player taps on time while cursor is within acceptable radius. The red circle represents this 'mercy radius' if you will, this radius may also be applied to sliders as well. In this scenario the player was off to a perfect start, then suddenly toward the middle he is about to miss his first hit circle. With our current system, this results in a complete failure, messing up the combo half-way could mean the difference between 3 million score and 12 million (75% difference!), as well as a loss to a ton of pp, even if you were to hit every other circle/slider with 100% accuracy. With this feature, because the cursor is barely within the acceptable radius, it would simply mean that he gets one X, missing out on a few ten thousand, flunking the perfect FC and not making it to the top #50.

  1. This smells like free pp for noobs. I don't want a noobish player like you getting tons of pp.
Actually no it isn't. Everyone would be equally impacted by this, not just low tier players. As for pp, you see pp compares with other players as well. High tier players will equally benefit from this in terms of pp (perhaps a little more since they can compete with high pp maps) just as much as low tier players. The only virtual difference would be that the player would be able to compare his scores/personal records in a more linear fashion. Rather than some days you do well, then other days you can't beat that old score despite having better aim and accuracy, simply because you weren't so lucky.

  1. But wouldn't this will totally mess up the top 50 charts!?
Nope it wouldn't. Top 50's are full combos anyway and are already dominated by top tier players who play with multiple mods on a regular basis. Low level players wouldn't even be able to compete in this category. It will only enable players to gauge their progress based on how much their score increases with each pass through. This will however have great impact to the top 1000's, if anyone really cares.

List of other feature request that are worth noting if this gets implemented
t/220119/start=30 -- this one is about making pp the basis of top 50 charts, though personally I think score should remain but it wouldn't hurt to add a "sort by pp" or something.

More can be added to this list later.

No. Just no. Why should we even listen to this guy?
If you feel strongly that this is a bad suggestion then at least explain why. I consider myself "the average" player and if I'm not qualified to make a suggestion then so be it.

Edit History:
  1. Added [Gameplay] Catching the tail end of sliders no longer break combo. And explanation under Context. Better formatting for readability.
  2. Added " and player taps on time" - sorry I am bad at explaining things!
  3. More formatting.
  4. And more formatting.
  5. Added "This is feature request regarding gameplay and scoring."
  6. Added "gameplay" to thread title for more clarity about what this is about.
  7. Fixed the unusual gap between lists. Paragraph break is OP.
  8. Added topic question.
Last edited by I Give Up , edited 8 times in total.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
the skill floor of osu is already as low as it needs to be. full difficulty spreads make sure of it.
Sounds exploitable at worst and a needless placebo at best.

Anich682 wrote:

Feature Request Summary
  1. [Gameplay] Combo multiplier no longer breaks if cursor is within acceptable radius. time to play stream maps like chipscape and dt mendez and get tons of pp since ppv2 doesnt factor in total score. acc wont matter that much when doing this, i mean bes_joker has a D on mendez DT and still got 261 pp.
  2. [Gameplay] Still no score given. so just break the combo and be done with it then. why keep the multiplier? why have combo at all? it becomes a completely meaningless metric of you just base it off Relax rules.
  3. [Clarity] Still play DJ scratch sound (hit0.wav). see above
  4. [Gameplay] Still apply health penalty. see above
  5. [Gameplay] Combo multiplier does not increase.see above
  6. [Gameplay] Accuracy percentage still counts it as a miss. see above
  7. [Clarity] In-game displays current misses. duplicate request
  8. [Clarity] New sound for combo breaker. you can already skin it
  9. [Shader Effects] Screen flashes red for combo breaker (similar to low health warning).
  10. [Mod] Combo Breaker -- game ends if combo multiplier is broken, comes before Sudden Death.
im fine with this being an unranked mod though.
I Give Up
1,648 posts
Joined January 2014
Topic Starter
I Give Up
time to play stream maps like chipscape and dt mendez and get tons of pp since ppv2 doesnt factor in total score. acc wont matter that much when doing this, i mean bes_joker has a D on mendez DT and still got 261 pp.
Not at all :D Tapping at the wrong time would break combo. This feature only helps facilitate movement. It doesn't mention anything about missing taps I'm sure! I probably messed up my explanation somewhere, please see illustration for more clarity.

[Gameplay] Still no score given. -- so just break the combo and be done with it then. why keep the multiplier? why have combo at all? it becomes a completely meaningless metric of you just base it off Relax rules.
It enables you to see how well you surpass your previous score with every retry.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

Anich682 wrote:

It enables you to see how well you surpass your previous score with every retry.
you can already use local rankings for this.

what do you mean "combo doesnt break if cursor is within acceptable radius"?
if the goal is to make aiming easier [by punishing less] thats going to devalue jumps and aim terribly.

because "no longer breaks if cursor is within acceptable radius" either implies the circle or the tap hit window was missed and im not sure which you meant. Either way its damaging.

Anich682 wrote:

This will however have great impact to the top 1000's, if anyone really cares.
considering there's many times more people in the top 1000's than the top 50's, im sure some people care.
Oinari-sama
osu! Alumni
3,403 posts
Joined July 2010
Oinari-sama
Frankly I don't see any need in changing current combo break behavior. Skills come from playing more. Most people who complain about being "depressed" were expecting to be better than others within no time, without paying attention to how they're actually improving on an absolute scale.

I dunno what others think but I read through the OP and saw no action-ables.
I Give Up
1,648 posts
Joined January 2014
Topic Starter
I Give Up
I would like to know your opinions on what effect this could have on the pro scene (championships and tournament plays). I would also like to clarify that this feature request is for osu!standard only.

Bassist Vinyl wrote:

Anich682 wrote:

It enables you to see how well you surpass your previous score with every retry.
you can already use local rankings for this.

what do you mean "combo doesnt break if cursor is within acceptable radius"?
if the goal is to make aiming easier [by punishing less] thats going to devalue jumps and aim terribly.

because "no longer breaks if cursor is within acceptable radius" either implies the circle or the tap hit window was missed and im not sure which you meant. Either way its damaging.

Anich682 wrote:

This will however have great impact to the top 1000's, if anyone really cares.
considering there's many times more people in the top 1000's than the top 50's, im sure some people care.
The kind of impact in the top 1000's it will have is that people who DT their way with 100's and 50's will now have to fear those that can DT with 300's but have poorer movement and mess up middle sections because of it.

The current gameplay is very forgiving with accuracy. Not tapping on time you still get 100's and even 50's if you tap way off rhythm. But for aim there is no leniency at all. You won't get 50 if you miss the mark by 5 pixels, you get a solid zero.

I would like to visit the reason why you think this is damaging. You don't have to say it if you don't want to but I think it will be good for the discussion to address all concerns :)
XPJ38
osu! Alumni
3,570 posts
Joined February 2010
XPJ38
I don't get your request. Is it supposed to be just a new mod or a totally different way to build per-map rankings?

Anyway, I still have some remarks about what you said.

I have friends and family who are interested in the game but are discouraged by its "difficulty".
I assume that they are newcomers. There has been a discussion about osu! being too difficult for newcomers, can't find it again. But I remember that one of the consensuses is that generally if people complain about osu! being too difficult, it's because they weren't that interested in the game in the first place.

If they aren't newcomers, they either play in a wrong way, like playing Insanes from the very start while they should just stick to Normal diffs, or don't play enough, like once a week for 30 minutes. osu! isn't that difficult but the learning curve is steep, especially for people who are new to rhythm games. There are many ways that can help them progress, like the HalfTime, NoFail, Relax and AutoPilot mods. I believe there are already enough ways as it is.

In this scenario the player was off to a perfect start, then suddenly toward the middle he is about to miss his first hit circle. With our current system, this results in a complete failure.
Well yes, osu! is an aim-based game after all. If you missed a circle, you just lack aim and need to train. That's the point of the game.
Also, I don't see much difference between the "mercy radius" you are talking about and just having bigger circles, aside from the fact that you just lose the points of the circle you missed. There's the Easy mod to get bigger circles and plenty of requests in this forum to adjust the circle size to whatever a player wants.

she kept messing up the middle section
Everyone went through a situation like this :P It's part of the game, really.
Granger
835 posts
Joined April 2014
Granger
[Gameplay] Combo multiplier no longer breaks if cursor is within acceptable radius and player taps on time. Yeah, no. If thats a problem with the almost hit for you then get better or play maps with lower CS. Why make FCs when you clearly missed a note possible?
[Gameplay] Catching the tail end of sliders no longer break combo. It never did when you do it correctly?
[Gameplay] Still no score given.
[Clarity] Still play DJ scratch sound (hit0.wav).
[Gameplay] Still apply health penalty.
[Gameplay] Combo multiplier does not increase.
[Gameplay] Accuracy percentage still counts it as a miss.
[Clarity] In-game displays current misses. Basically dont threat misses as misses but show them as misses. Okay...?
[Clarity] New sound for combo breaker.
[Shader Effects] Screen flashes red for combo breaker (similar to low health warning). Why? Dont you already get enough feedback? Theres a very noticeable sound and a miss icon. Flashes are distracting at best.
[Mod] Combo Breaker -- game ends if combo multiplier is broken, comes before Sudden Death. [b]Why would it come before SD when its a harsher version of SD? Also, wouldnt it be better for SD to have this behavior instead of making a new mod for this as those two do basically the same but in different ways? And yes, that has been suggested before.
I Give Up
1,648 posts
Joined January 2014
Topic Starter
I Give Up
Yeah, no. If thats a problem with the almost hit for you then get better or play maps with lower CS. Why make FCs when you clearly missed a note possible?
This isn't about making me better, its about improving the game that I love ;)

I don't understand the last segment. What do you mean by FC possible if a note is missed? As far as I'm concerned FC shouldn't be possible at all if a note has been missed, just as it currently is in the game.

I don't get your request. Is it supposed to be just a new mod or a totally different way to build per-map rankings?
It's a feature request regarding gameplay and scoring. Though naturally there will be other implications, like a new kind of SD mod to cater for this change.

Also I tried looking for this thread you mentioned but couldn't find it. If you remember then please let me know? It may help give me another angle on this.
silmarilen
5,581 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
basically you're asking for "almost-hits" to not break your combo multiplier?
no. a miss is a miss, no exception. if you want to keep your combo multiplier, get better at the game or play easier maps.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

Anich682 wrote:

The current gameplay is very forgiving with accuracy. Not tapping on time you still get 100's and even 50's if you tap way off rhythm. But for aim there is no leniency at all. You won't get 50 if you miss the mark by 5 pixels, you get a solid zero.

I would like to visit the reason why you think this is damaging. You don't have to say it if you don't want to but I think it will be good for the discussion to address all concerns :)
tap leniency works the same way as aim leniency. tap a bit too late and you're closer to missing, don't aim directly at the center of the circle and you're closer to missing. There's no reason to add a second layer to that anymore than there is for tap leniency.

If anything aim leniency is higher than tap leniency because there's no accuracy penalty for not hitting the middle of the circle, and CS4, which is extremely easy to aim, is the norm these days. You get the occasional CS5 but that isn't too hard to aim with either unless there's crazy jumps. In fact CS5 feels easier to aim streams with.
Chocolat
140 posts
Joined March 2013
Chocolat
I'll need to agree with everyone else here. There's no need to change of this.
There's really no flaw in the gameplay of osu! It's as easy as it gets.
You just really need to play a lot and get used to it.
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