It would be a minor bonus. I don't think it would hardly affect the map's overall rating in comparison with other maps. Consider scores where the only difference between them is the spinner bonus points. I think people that can spin faster should be given more points. They got a higher score with same accuracy/ mods. Their play should be considered more highly performed. It would also counteract small changes in accuracy due to the player getting a better score from a spinner bonus. For the sake of accuracy it must be counted.
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all that matters for spinners is being able to get a 300, you already get punished with a 100 (and thus lower pp) if you cant spin fast enough.
being able to get more spinner bonus is like being able to get 60 unstable rate on an od6 map. it's cool and all but pointless and it shouldnt give you more pp.
being able to get more spinner bonus is like being able to get 60 unstable rate on an od6 map. it's cool and all but pointless and it shouldnt give you more pp.
What about unstable rates? I've seen people get SS's on maps with 120 unstable rates, and others SS with 70. Should the player with the 70 unstable rate be awarded more pp? They both did what was required of the map and achieved the SS, but one player did better and was not rewarded for it.TheVileOne wrote:
It would be a minor bonus. I don't think it would hardly affect the map's overall rating in comparison with other maps. Consider scores where the only difference between them is the spinner bonus points. I think people that can spin faster should be given more points. They got a higher score with same accuracy/ mods. Their play should be considered more highly performed. It would also counteract small changes in accuracy due to the player getting a better score from a spinner bonus. For the sake of accuracy it must be counted.
In a perfect world I would agree that would be considered as well. But in reality pp must be consider for the OD of a map. Also unstable rate doesn't affect score. Obviously peppy felt spinners deserved to have bonuses. Taiko doesn't allow you to get a bonus off the spinners. CTB should certainly deserve a small bonus as well.
There are many maps with tied mod combinations that only differ due to spinner bonus. We should be differentiating each tied play, because some people can get bonuses many thousands more than other players, especially on longer spinners where endurance is concerned. Why should a deserved number 1 play on a map not be considered the best performance compared to the several dozen other people who got less points?
There are many maps with tied mod combinations that only differ due to spinner bonus. We should be differentiating each tied play, because some people can get bonuses many thousands more than other players, especially on longer spinners where endurance is concerned. Why should a deserved number 1 play on a map not be considered the best performance compared to the several dozen other people who got less points?
Just because peppy felt that spinners should have score bonus doesn't mean they should be given pp also. Unless unstable rates are accounted for I cannot agree that spinners should be given a bonus. In my opinion, a lower unstable rate play is much better than a higher scoring song because of a spinner bonus.TheVileOne wrote:
In a perfect world I would agree that would be considered as well. But in reality pp must be consider for the OD of a map. Also unstable rate doesn't affect score. Obviously peppy felt spinners deserved to have bonuses. Taiko doesn't allow you to get a bonus off the spinners. CTB should certainly deserve a small bonus as well.
There are many maps with tied mod combinations that only differ due to spinner bonus. We should be differentiating each tied play, because some people can get bonuses many thousands more than other players, especially on longer spinners where endurance is concerned. Why should a deserved number 1 play on a map not be considered the best performance compared to the several dozen other people who got less points?
It should be given pp because of several reasons.
1. It's a skill, and an integrated part of playing. There is no argument that can be made that will make me believe otherwise that someone spinning at 470 SPM is performing equally well to someone spinning at 300 SPM.
2. It affects score. A player with a higher score due to something that requires skill should be awarded something even if that something is very marginal. I don't see this value being very high, at least for sane spinning SPMs. If someone averages near what osu! can get for a max spin, then a point given per spinner is reasonable. Given that 1 mod added gives more than that, it would work out. (Obviously the value would change based on length of spinner).
3. At the rate most players spin the bonus would probably be less than 1 pp per spinner and close to nothing near the SPM considered easy to obtain given the OD.
4. Makes beating a score with a better spin rewarding.
5. Gives more points to Incognito, one of the best spinners in osu! Check this map. Adding HardRock isn't enough to take the number one spot. There are people in top 50 who get more points than four mod plays. Spinning ability is certainly more impressive in this map than playing it with all mods.
6. Removes point ceiling on maps. An SS can be worth more points with a better spin.
1. It's a skill, and an integrated part of playing. There is no argument that can be made that will make me believe otherwise that someone spinning at 470 SPM is performing equally well to someone spinning at 300 SPM.
2. It affects score. A player with a higher score due to something that requires skill should be awarded something even if that something is very marginal. I don't see this value being very high, at least for sane spinning SPMs. If someone averages near what osu! can get for a max spin, then a point given per spinner is reasonable. Given that 1 mod added gives more than that, it would work out. (Obviously the value would change based on length of spinner).
3. At the rate most players spin the bonus would probably be less than 1 pp per spinner and close to nothing near the SPM considered easy to obtain given the OD.
4. Makes beating a score with a better spin rewarding.
5. Gives more points to Incognito, one of the best spinners in osu! Check this map. Adding HardRock isn't enough to take the number one spot. There are people in top 50 who get more points than four mod plays. Spinning ability is certainly more impressive in this map than playing it with all mods.
6. Removes point ceiling on maps. An SS can be worth more points with a better spin.
mmmmm thats what i was thinkingjesus1412 wrote:
Because the only hard part about them is the length.iderekmc wrote:
why do these 0108 songs give so little PP like only 160 more or less if only a few people can fc with 1 mod..? i think they should give like 250 or something lol
the accuracy is over 98% in case
Separate points gained from hitobjects and average the remaining points based on total points possible off the spinners. It wouldn't be as accurate as per spinner data, but those who spin large spin large on all the spinners and would still get some form of a bonus. It would be unfortunate if you could not separate score associated with spinner bonus from score associated with regular hitobjects.
That is impossible. The system can only read how many 300/100/50/miss you got, but not at which part of the map those actually happened - so there is no way to calculate hit object score. A 1x100 score that had its 100 right at the beginning will beat a 1x100 score where you messed up at the end even if the latter score had way superior spinning.
peppy is all about future proofing his game. This sure was an oversight.
Anyways even if it only affects newer plays it would be good. ._.
Anyways even if it only affects newer plays it would be good. ._.
I have one question. How can I get bigger rank after I've improved my old record? I mean yes if the map is easy I shouldn't get anything but how can I get worse by improving my plays?
That means that people passed your rank and when you beat one of your personal bests your rank updates. If you spend 30 seconds looking on the other threads about ranking you can find that answer. You don't even need to use the seach thingy.Honza wrote:
I have one question. How can I get bigger rank after I've improved my old record? I mean yes if the map is easy I shouldn't get anything but how can I get worse by improving my plays?
Also, keep in mind that sometimes when you get a higher combo (which is the same as more score) but end up messing on the acc, that play might be worth less pp depending on the acc/map. Higher OD = Acc means more.
No one cares about spinning. It's really a shitty skill and it shouldn't be rewarded much, any random crap player can outspin a lot of top players if they try.TheVileOne wrote:
It should be given pp because of several reasons.
1. It's a skill, and an integrated part of playing. There is no argument that can be made that will make me believe otherwise that someone spinning at 470 SPM is performing equally well to someone spinning at 300 SPM.
2. It affects score. A player with a higher score due to something that requires skill should be awarded something even if that something is very marginal. I don't see this value being very high, at least for sane spinning SPMs. If someone averages near what osu! can get for a max spin, then a point given per spinner is reasonable. Given that 1 mod added gives more than that, it would work out. (Obviously the value would change based on length of spinner).
3. At the rate most players spin the bonus would probably be less than 1 pp per spinner and close to nothing near the SPM considered easy to obtain given the OD.
4. Makes beating a score with a better spin rewarding.
5. Gives more points to Incognito, one of the best spinners in osu! Check this map. Adding HardRock isn't enough to take the number one spot. There are people in top 50 who get more points than four mod plays. Spinning ability is certainly more impressive in this map than playing it with all mods.
6. Removes point ceiling on maps. An SS can be worth more points with a better spin.
I think being higher in scoreboard + ability to pass some high drain maps is enough of an award.
If you need a certain level of spinning to pass a map that map isn't worth playing. Noone should play maps with high drain because they are good at spinning. That will be a reward not taken by pretty much any player.
Is drain even considered at all?
Is drain even considered at all?
afaik, ppv2 rates how hard it is to FC a map, not to pass it, so I don't think HP drain is consideredTheVileOne wrote:
Is drain even considered at all?
Plz, #8 disagrees.TheVileOne wrote:
If you need a certain level of spinning to pass a map that map isn't worth playing. Noone should play maps with high drain because they are good at spinning. That will be a reward not taken by pretty much any player.
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/24611
^Nice find. Although unless he plans to be much more accurate, then that performance isn't worth nearly as much as the Hidden players. It's not worth the effort, especially since they have the same score modifier. He could play with hidden and perform better with less effort. Spinners are worth less in Hard Rock as well making it even less of an incentive to use Hard Rock versus hidden as a spinner).
I think the reason why pro players aren't great spinners is because they conserve their stamina for the streams and other sections of the maps. If there was a pro that was a great spinner and a great streamer and could apply both to a map, then that would be a much more impressive performance than one who did the same thing but barely exerted any effort to complete the spin.
If we had more pro players capable of challenging rrty or cookiezi scores, then I think spinning would become much more important to the pro community, because it actually matters. Why should pros care about spinning if the score they get is determined by the number of 100s in the song rather than how fast they spin? I think a lot of pros treat spinners like break time and a map will instantly become more demanding if they were required to actually exert effort during these periods.
The real question here is how much more energy does a vigorous spin take compare to a non-vigorous spin. How much further can a pro stream by not vigorously spinning? Some pros I question whether they even know of to spin to begin with. I've seen them spin so slow that they get a 100 on the spinner. Is it some sort of contest to see how slow one can spin among the pro community?
I think the reason why pro players aren't great spinners is because they conserve their stamina for the streams and other sections of the maps. If there was a pro that was a great spinner and a great streamer and could apply both to a map, then that would be a much more impressive performance than one who did the same thing but barely exerted any effort to complete the spin.
If we had more pro players capable of challenging rrty or cookiezi scores, then I think spinning would become much more important to the pro community, because it actually matters. Why should pros care about spinning if the score they get is determined by the number of 100s in the song rather than how fast they spin? I think a lot of pros treat spinners like break time and a map will instantly become more demanding if they were required to actually exert effort during these periods.
The real question here is how much more energy does a vigorous spin take compare to a non-vigorous spin. How much further can a pro stream by not vigorously spinning? Some pros I question whether they even know of to spin to begin with. I've seen them spin so slow that they get a 100 on the spinner. Is it some sort of contest to see how slow one can spin among the pro community?
Spinners shouldn't give pp because they don't require rhythm or aim at all, they're pretty much a break time in the map and no cares about them
The purpose of spinners is mainly to untie SS scores, which isn't relevant when players just add more mods to get more impressive scores with high speed, aim and reading demanding skills rather than grabbing a few thousands points from an element that has barely a place in a rhythm game
The purpose of spinners is mainly to untie SS scores, which isn't relevant when players just add more mods to get more impressive scores with high speed, aim and reading demanding skills rather than grabbing a few thousands points from an element that has barely a place in a rhythm game
Stop saying no one. That's like saying no one cares about number 1 once someone SS ranks it with all mods. Most people who care about spinning don't care about streaming. I guess the same is also true, because of your attitude.
Anyways I am hardly arguing for it's inclusion anymore. I've already stated why it is a skill. Skill doesn't necessarily require rhythm. It would hardly affect the ranks, especially for songs that pros play. I don't understand this bias towards how people get pp in songs that pros don't even play. I want my pp system to be affected based on anything that affects gameplay.
If it affects gameplay, then it affects the difficulty. If it does not affect gameplay then it cannot affect the difficulty. All things that affect the difficulty should be considered in a pp related system.
Anyways I am hardly arguing for it's inclusion anymore. I've already stated why it is a skill. Skill doesn't necessarily require rhythm. It would hardly affect the ranks, especially for songs that pros play. I don't understand this bias towards how people get pp in songs that pros don't even play. I want my pp system to be affected based on anything that affects gameplay.
If it affects gameplay, then it affects the difficulty. If it does not affect gameplay then it cannot affect the difficulty. All things that affect the difficulty should be considered in a pp related system.
But spinning is a skill that isn't relevant in a rhythm game
I don't see why it should be considered in the pp calculation, I want pp to rate how good I am at this circle clicking rhythm game, not how good I am at drawing circles as fast as possible without caring about the rhythm aspect
I don't see why it should be considered in the pp calculation, I want pp to rate how good I am at this circle clicking rhythm game, not how good I am at drawing circles as fast as possible without caring about the rhythm aspect
It obviously wouldn't affect you. I mean who is purposefully trying to grind out every last pp a song is worth? I have tried to state that the amount it would award would be small (probably less than 1 pp) unless you are spinning near the bonus that auto is getting for a spin. Add weight to this and the amount added would be barely anything at a pro level rank. When you get down to the casual level rank, fractions of a pp are worth more.
I mean the pp system is already adding pp for each new map completion regardless of performance. Do you think that this aspect of pp is not boosting your rank by an unknown amount based on your playcount? How do you know where you actually stand in terms of people with different play counts. pp is already inaccurate and this would make it slightly more accurate, favoring people who have number 1s and not necessarily in maps that pros care about.
It's going to require per object hit data anyways. If Tom ever implements per object pp calculations then I expect this to be added as well. This may not be for awhile. This would require everyone to have to replay their scores to get the correct amount of pp. This would severely affect some pros.
I mean the pp system is already adding pp for each new map completion regardless of performance. Do you think that this aspect of pp is not boosting your rank by an unknown amount based on your playcount? How do you know where you actually stand in terms of people with different play counts. pp is already inaccurate and this would make it slightly more accurate, favoring people who have number 1s and not necessarily in maps that pros care about.
It's going to require per object hit data anyways. If Tom ever implements per object pp calculations then I expect this to be added as well. This may not be for awhile. This would require everyone to have to replay their scores to get the correct amount of pp. This would severely affect some pros.
It's not boosting anyone's rank since we all have this (very) small bonus
And I don't think/see how this would make the system any more accurate, having a 1st isn't the most accurate representative way of someone's skill when ranked score is already flawed (hello HD FL over HD HR / HD DT)
And I don't think/see how this would make the system any more accurate, having a 1st isn't the most accurate representative way of someone's skill when ranked score is already flawed (hello HD FL over HD HR / HD DT)
Shouldn't HD FL be valued the same as HD DT?
I agree that Hard rock is very underrated in some maps score-wise. I believe that tied scores that are worth more pp should be submitted. It's debatable whether other cases where there is a conflict between how much a play is worth and how much points it has should be considered. I don't think this falls into the same boat as spinning harder requires more effort which reduces ones ability to play the map in general.
Eh... the difference would just be a representation of the extra effort taken to achieve a better score. Spinners were not intended to be treated as break time.
It would be more accurate in that it would consider something that affects gameplay and difficulty. It is not accurate to treat the level of effort required to clear a spinner as static. A person who spins very hard will be more likely to combo break than someone who doesn't. It takes more stamina to take a number 1 rank than it does to just SS in a map where there is an SS all mods. The difference needs to be considered, because just the fact that mods were played is not enough to correctly calculate performance.
I agree that Hard rock is very underrated in some maps score-wise. I believe that tied scores that are worth more pp should be submitted. It's debatable whether other cases where there is a conflict between how much a play is worth and how much points it has should be considered. I don't think this falls into the same boat as spinning harder requires more effort which reduces ones ability to play the map in general.
Eh... the difference would just be a representation of the extra effort taken to achieve a better score. Spinners were not intended to be treated as break time.
It would be more accurate in that it would consider something that affects gameplay and difficulty. It is not accurate to treat the level of effort required to clear a spinner as static. A person who spins very hard will be more likely to combo break than someone who doesn't. It takes more stamina to take a number 1 rank than it does to just SS in a map where there is an SS all mods. The difference needs to be considered, because just the fact that mods were played is not enough to correctly calculate performance.
TheVileOne wrote:
Shouldn't HD FL be valued the same as HD DT?
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/43003
It's easier to FL that map than it is to DT it, that is what he meant.
No I'm pretty sure he means that hd and hd combined give less combo multiplier than fl hd, which I think is true (someone correct me?)Mathsma wrote:
TheVileOne wrote:
Shouldn't HD FL be valued the same as HD DT?
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/43003
It's easier to FL that map than it is to DT it, that is what he meant.
hd and hd? If you meant HD DT then no, the multiplier is the same.jesus1412 wrote:
No I'm pretty sure he means that hd and hd combined give less combo multiplier than fl hd, which I think is true (someone correct me?)
A person who spins very hard will be more likely to combo break than someone who doesn't. It takes more stamina to take a number 1 rank than it does to just SS in a map where there is an SS all mods. The difference needs to be considered, because just the fact that mods were played is not enough to correctly calculate performance.This is pure rubbish right there. Why should it be considered? Because you tried hard spinners and got a bit more sweaty? People still do it even when #1 doesn't matter in PP. As I said, they are #1 (or just the best with given mods) and it's enough of a reward. I'd even say it's exactly what people do want when they engage in a spinner war. It's for sure not a way of saying "I'm better".
Seriously, spinners are not important and everyone, who has some knowledge about the competitive-like side of this game, knows it. Yes, everyone.
Hi. I'm a person who spins 450+. I doubt it takes much more energy than a lazy spin.TheVileOne wrote:
I think the reason why pro players aren't great spinners is because they conserve their stamina for the streams and other sections of the maps. If there was a pro that was a great spinner and a great streamer and could apply both to a map, then that would be a much more impressive performance than one who did the same thing but barely exerted any effort to complete the spin.
If we had more pro players capable of challenging rrty or cookiezi scores, then I think spinning would become much more important to the pro community, because it actually matters. Why should pros care about spinning if the score they get is determined by the number of 100s in the song rather than how fast they spin? I think a lot of pros treat spinners like break time and a map will instantly become more demanding if they were required to actually exert effort during these periods.
The real question here is how much more energy does a vigorous spin take compare to a non-vigorous spin. How much further can a pro stream by not vigorously spinning? Some pros I question whether they even know of to spin to begin with. I've seen them spin so slow that they get a 100 on the spinner. Is it some sort of contest to see how slow one can spin among the pro community?
Even if it does, your aiming hand is not your streaming hand. How much energy you use spinning has zero effect on your streaming stamina.
Spinners are not important. The only situation you should ever care about spinners in is if you want #1s on [easy] difficulties or want to pass this map on HR
Meh. It's true that it wont affect streaming speed, but it does affect aim, especially in high retry maps. Unless you are consistent enough to FC something within a small amount of tries or split your attempts over a longer period of time, there is only so many times you can spin a long spinner in one sitting before you become unable to perform complex movements. This assumes the spinner is not at the end of the map.
There's only so many times I can play https://osu.ppy.sh/s/25 before I need to rest and I'm not even spinning nearly as fast as some spinners. Spinning harder does affect my aim afterwards, because I am a mouse user and my hand gets tense after a fast spin. I could spin more slowly and my hand would not tense up. Stamina certainly becomes an issue on really long spinners.
Also notes close after the spinner make it more risky to spin faster. It's much easier to spin like an average spinner than to go into a tight circle around the center like tablet players do or flying around the corners like mouse players do.
I've told you how I feel pp should be calculated. If Tom agrees that it isn't worth the trouble, then I will not cry fowl. I have a different idea about what it should value and nothing can be said that will change my opinions. I am not going to rally people in support for my ideas. Feel free to critique it as you will. I know what adds difficulty for me and no one is going to tell me that it doesn't add difficulty or affects difficulty positively or negatively. That is simply a wrong statement.
There's only so many times I can play https://osu.ppy.sh/s/25 before I need to rest and I'm not even spinning nearly as fast as some spinners. Spinning harder does affect my aim afterwards, because I am a mouse user and my hand gets tense after a fast spin. I could spin more slowly and my hand would not tense up. Stamina certainly becomes an issue on really long spinners.
Also notes close after the spinner make it more risky to spin faster. It's much easier to spin like an average spinner than to go into a tight circle around the center like tablet players do or flying around the corners like mouse players do.
I've told you how I feel pp should be calculated. If Tom agrees that it isn't worth the trouble, then I will not cry fowl. I have a different idea about what it should value and nothing can be said that will change my opinions. I am not going to rally people in support for my ideas. Feel free to critique it as you will. I know what adds difficulty for me and no one is going to tell me that it doesn't add difficulty or affects difficulty positively or negatively. That is simply a wrong statement.
Topic Starter
It is impossible to find out how good someone has spun without per-hitobject data. If it ever happens there will be a small bonus for spinning well, but it is certain that it will never happen to old scores retroactively. It's simply impossible to recover that data for scores without replays and even the ones with replays would have subtle bugs.
To summarize: A spinner bonus can't possibly happen right now in a fair way, therefore it won't. Sorry.
To summarize: A spinner bonus can't possibly happen right now in a fair way, therefore it won't. Sorry.
i think some maps are harder but the star diff for that is lower, why
Some maps, such as the 0108 maps, rely on reading and difficult patterns. The current system can't rate how difficult patterns are or how hard a map is to read due to some limitations, so the end result is that those maps are undervalued. There are also some other issues with the system, but that is probably the one that is causing the lower star rating for most maps. Tom would like to add that into the rating system but he can't at the moment, whenever he can he will.- D a s z x - wrote:
i think some maps are harder but the star diff for that is lower, why
If it's much easier to do it that way... why not just do it then? You're clearly either making things harder for yourself, or just don't spin enough. Seriously, even if it's something completely useless, you will improve if you practice. People just don't work on spinners as much, so most stay within the 350-450 range because that's enough to pass OD10 spinners. If you're missing the note afterwards, just remember where the note is and start moving there a bit earlier. It's really not as hard as you make it sound.TheVileOne wrote:
There's only so many times I can play https://osu.ppy.sh/s/25 before I need to rest and I'm not even spinning nearly as fast as some spinners. Spinning harder does affect my aim afterwards, because I am a mouse user and my hand gets tense after a fast spin. I could spin more slowly and my hand would not tense up. Stamina certainly becomes an issue on really long spinners.
Also notes close after the spinner make it more risky to spin faster. It's much easier to spin like an average spinner than to go into a tight circle around the center like tablet players do or flying around the corners like mouse players do.
Don't reply with something like "if you're gonna go for 1000 more points". Those 1000 points aren't relevant in high-end maps, and if you have trouble spinning on low-end maps that's just your problem because clearly all the other [Easy] [Normal] players can do it with ease.
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There's what Mathsma said, and there are also maps that are a bit overrated (Koigokoro), but nothing can be perfect. The system is usually pretty darn accurate.- D a s z x - wrote:
i think some maps are harder but the star diff for that is lower, why
It could also be that you find one of streams/jumps easier than the other, so a map filled with the one you find harder would seem more difficult.
koigokoro is overrated as much as any other map is overrated with DT
hd hr on that map kpielak wrote:
you guys obviously haven't seen this map https://osu.ppy.sh/s/42234
So what about this map? It's just a troll for those who somehow can't spin. But bear in mind that 90% of players can spin incredibly fast (enough to past augoeides or desire dream) and nobody apart from newbs finds it really impressive.
In overall, those kinds of maps are more like DRAIN hard, not SPINNER hard. We're talking about situation where player x has better score than player y because of the spinner. And according to Vile player x should gain more PP for that. I don't need to comment on this idea, I guess.
In overall, those kinds of maps are more like DRAIN hard, not SPINNER hard. We're talking about situation where player x has better score than player y because of the spinner. And according to Vile player x should gain more PP for that. I don't need to comment on this idea, I guess.
Drain is a dumb reason to fail a map under any circumstance. I was only saying that anything that affects difficulty negatively or positively should affect pp. If you say it makes it easier then maps should be worth less pp. I just don't feel like they should be considered like they are break time there when they clearly are more than that.
Also when I made the suggestion I thought that you could figure out the bonus that one could get from the map. The cons slightly outweigh the pros now that it absolutely must require new information to submitted instead of existing plays.
Also when I made the suggestion I thought that you could figure out the bonus that one could get from the map. The cons slightly outweigh the pros now that it absolutely must require new information to submitted instead of existing plays.
I don't like how I can lose pp by using a mod and getting higher score but lower accuracy. I wouldn't mind just not getting pp but I don't wanna use mods if I'll lose pp unless I work back up to the same accuracy as before.
This has already been discussed multiple times. There is currently no way around this issue.Jean-Christophe wrote:
I don't like how I can lose pp by using a mod and getting higher score but lower accuracy. I wouldn't mind just not getting pp but I don't wanna use mods if I'll lose pp unless I work back up to the same accuracy as before.
Make mod usage worth more. Easy fix.mcdoomfrag wrote:
This has already been discussed multiple times. There is currently no way around this issue.Jean-Christophe wrote:
I don't like how I can lose pp by using a mod and getting higher score but lower accuracy. I wouldn't mind just not getting pp but I don't wanna use mods if I'll lose pp unless I work back up to the same accuracy as before.
I would say that there's a limit to how much accuracy one should lose though. If you're getting double digit 100s then obviously this will affect your pp count greatly. There is no preventing a terrible performance with an added mod overwriting a good performance.
You know damn well that finding a good balance between not making mods useless without giving them too much reward is a rather complex and subjective solution. Even so, what I meant in that post was aimed more-so towards the notion of being able to disregard your score so that you don't lose PP, or something along those lines. The servers can only store your top score because of the way the system works and has always worked, so Tom94 can only work with that saved score.TheVileOne wrote:
Make mod usage worth more. Easy fix.
Topic Starter
Mod for at least HardRock and DoubleTime will likely never be adjusted manually. That is, because they are literally treated equally to nomod scores, just with the mods' effects applied.TheVileOne wrote:
Make mod usage worth more. Easy fix.
I would say that there's a limit to how much accuracy one should lose though. If you're getting double digit 100s then obviously this will affect your pp count greatly. There is no preventing a terrible performance with an added mod overwriting a good performance.
If anything is at fault, then the algorithm for scaling the wrong way.
Compare previous score's pp with new score's pp and use the higher value???mcdoomfrag wrote:
This has already been discussed multiple times. There is currently no way around this issue.Jean-Christophe wrote:
I don't like how I can lose pp by using a mod and getting higher score but lower accuracy. I wouldn't mind just not getting pp but I don't wanna use mods if I'll lose pp unless I work back up to the same accuracy as before.
If this is supposed to be an indication of skill then there's no reason to assume a player got worse for having his/her score overwritten with one of lower pp value...
If new pp value is smaller than current pp value for some map, don't change the pp. That's one line of code. Seems like common sense to me to make it work that way.
Only data you need is pp obtained and pp for the same map for the same player which looks like it's stored on server.
Maybe there can be a disconnect between pp given for a map and top score saved but that doesn't really matter.
I agree, i feel somewhat dissapointed at being unable to play HR, Hidden, DT or any combination of them, previously a 92% HR HD fc was worth way more than a 98% nomod FC - now it's not only worth less, but it will overwrite the score and take away PP in a way that prevents you from ever getting it back. Everyone that i know who plays the game at a decent level feels somewhat cheated by this - nobody likes to get 150pp and then overwrite it with a 130pp score and be unable to get their 150pp back - at the VERY least, if there is no possible workaround, let us delete the score and re-play to score again!
I think this is a pretty basic and important flaw in one of the key features of the game we all love, so i'm sad to see it unfixed for months
osu plz <3
I think this is a pretty basic and important flaw in one of the key features of the game we all love, so i'm sad to see it unfixed for months
osu plz <3
Topic Starter
No. Please don't just assume things without reading the discussion.Jean-Christophe wrote:
Compare previous score's pp with new score's pp and use the higher value???
If this is supposed to be an indication of skill then there's no reason to assume a player got worse for having his/her score overwritten with one of lower pp value...
If new pp value is smaller than current pp value for some map, don't change the pp. That's one line of code. Seems like common sense to me to make it work that way.
Only data you need is pp obtained and pp for the same map for the same player which looks like it's stored on server.
Maybe there can be a disconnect between pp given for a map and top score saved but that doesn't really matter.
The simple argument against your proposal is, that whenever the algorithm is changed all the scores' pp values need to be recomputed - which is impossible without actually storing all the most giving scores. Before you propose just storing the most-giving pp score per map, please read the discussion about it containing the arguments against it.
The most optimal solution would be storing mod-specific highscores. Until that happens there won't be a feasible fix.
Just gonna drop some feelings out here real quick: I think deathstreams are incredibly overrated. So many maps contain relatively easy long streams and provide insane amounts of pp from them. It'd be nice to see faster streams rewarded more and longer ones rewarded less (hopefully this will balance out for long fast streams). At the moment fast stream provide barely any amount of pp compated to longer streams(say a few 270bpm 12 note streams vs a 40 note 220bpm stream).
To add to this, I find large jumps to be rewarded too greatly while very fast short jumps are underrated. Half screen 300bpm jumps should be valued as much as full screen 230bpm jumps imo, especially when in rapid succession for relatively large periods of time.
It also seems that the difficulty increase/decrease from the size of hit circles is overrated. Large hit circles seem to help more than the current system thinks while smaller hit circles make the map a fair deal harder.
My final point is the scaling of pp with map length. The system currently seems to scale penalties for combo based on how far from a full combo you are and amount of misses in total, this is kinda frustrating because it means that full-combos on a 1200 combo map are worth as much as a slightly easier 500 combo map. There should be a large reward for comboing longer maps and less of a penalty for missing on them (it seems strange to me that a 900 combo on a map with 1200 max combo awards LESS pp than a map of equal difficulty and 500 max combo with an fc).
To add to this, I find large jumps to be rewarded too greatly while very fast short jumps are underrated. Half screen 300bpm jumps should be valued as much as full screen 230bpm jumps imo, especially when in rapid succession for relatively large periods of time.
It also seems that the difficulty increase/decrease from the size of hit circles is overrated. Large hit circles seem to help more than the current system thinks while smaller hit circles make the map a fair deal harder.
My final point is the scaling of pp with map length. The system currently seems to scale penalties for combo based on how far from a full combo you are and amount of misses in total, this is kinda frustrating because it means that full-combos on a 1200 combo map are worth as much as a slightly easier 500 combo map. There should be a large reward for comboing longer maps and less of a penalty for missing on them (it seems strange to me that a 900 combo on a map with 1200 max combo awards LESS pp than a map of equal difficulty and 500 max combo with an fc).
I don't know as much about the long streams vs. fast streams since I'm not much of a speed player, but I definitely think smaller hitcircles and longer maps need to be rewarded much more.
I understand how the pp system currently accounts for smaller hitcircles, and that increasing your area is just like playing larger hitcircles, etc. But I can say in practice, it definitely isn't working like that. With how large the screen is, you can only make your area so big, and playing smaller circles requires more steady hands and better aim than the system makes it out to need due to how players snap. The difficulty gap is much more evident in CS6/CS7 maps + HR where aim is super hard but the aim tp is not very high, but I still think CS5+HR needs to be rewarded much more too. As a HDHR player, I've grown to dismiss CS5 maps as pp maps whenever I see them because they're always so much harder than CS4 maps that give the same amount of pp. I'm not sure exactly how to go about it so that the algorithm for it "makes sense", but I definitely think the scaling for points should be higher than the scaling for the circles themselves.
And as for longer maps, I've found that they generally do give lower pp than they deserve because of how much longer it takes to full combo them if you have some given percentage chance to miss at any point in the map. I mean, if you have a 1/10 chance at FCing a 500 combo map, you would ideally have a 1/100 chance at FCing a 1000 combo map, which means it would take on average 10 times as long. Obviously, if the map is really easy to FC, then it will take on average less than twice as long, but those maps won't give much pp anyway. Nerves are also a much bigger factor on longer maps. I don't think the map length scaling needs to be massive, but I think it should be at least noticeable.
I understand how the pp system currently accounts for smaller hitcircles, and that increasing your area is just like playing larger hitcircles, etc. But I can say in practice, it definitely isn't working like that. With how large the screen is, you can only make your area so big, and playing smaller circles requires more steady hands and better aim than the system makes it out to need due to how players snap. The difficulty gap is much more evident in CS6/CS7 maps + HR where aim is super hard but the aim tp is not very high, but I still think CS5+HR needs to be rewarded much more too. As a HDHR player, I've grown to dismiss CS5 maps as pp maps whenever I see them because they're always so much harder than CS4 maps that give the same amount of pp. I'm not sure exactly how to go about it so that the algorithm for it "makes sense", but I definitely think the scaling for points should be higher than the scaling for the circles themselves.
And as for longer maps, I've found that they generally do give lower pp than they deserve because of how much longer it takes to full combo them if you have some given percentage chance to miss at any point in the map. I mean, if you have a 1/10 chance at FCing a 500 combo map, you would ideally have a 1/100 chance at FCing a 1000 combo map, which means it would take on average 10 times as long. Obviously, if the map is really easy to FC, then it will take on average less than twice as long, but those maps won't give much pp anyway. Nerves are also a much bigger factor on longer maps. I don't think the map length scaling needs to be massive, but I think it should be at least noticeable.
i dont think high cs is that underrated.
this map is worth 80+ aim tp with hd dt only because of the cs, the map itself is a piece of cake
this map is worth 80+ aim tp with hd dt only because of the cs, the map itself is a piece of cake
I agreejesus1412 wrote:
At the very least low cs is overrated.
One thing for sure: DT is clearly overated.
I mean, completely messed up.
I mean, completely messed up.
People who say this are very careless. In some environments it's overrated but in others it's severely underrated. Large jump maps can rewards up to 500pp while far faster maps can barely top 300pp. It really depends on the map, jumps formed from dt tend to be easier to follow which is why people would call dt an overrated mod while short fast streams and smaller faster jumps are rarely ever mentioned because they don't fit the "overrated" trend. It seems the problem is that balanced maps are underrated rather than extreme maps overrated, a map which is extremely fast and mildly jumpy seems to be penalized far too much for not having long streams or immense jumps despite maintaining huge difficulty throughout (I'm looking at maps DT'ed by dragonhuman and co.).Yales wrote:
One thing for sure: DT is clearly overated.
I mean, completely messed up.
I'm not talking about maps DT>160BPM, the amount of pp is clearly deserved in this case.jesus1412 wrote:
People who say this are very careless. In some environments it's overrated but in others it's severely underrated. Large jump maps can rewards up to 500pp while far faster maps can barely top 300pp. It really depends on the map, jumps formed from dt tend to be easier to follow which is why people would call dt an overrated mod while short fast streams and smaller faster jumps are rarely ever mentioned because they don't fit the "overrated" trend. It seems the problem is that balanced maps are underrated rather than extreme maps overrated, a map which is extremely fast and mildly jumpy seems to be penalized far too much for not having long streams or immense jumps despite maintaining huge difficulty throughout (I'm looking at maps DT'ed by dragonhuman and co.).Yales wrote:
One thing for sure: DT is clearly overated.
I mean, completely messed up.
But those 130bpm maps that got more than 50 players with SS DTHD. (no offense, I know a SS is a hard thing).
I remember I did a random hddt play one time on a 130bpm map (200~ with dt), got quite a bad accuracy, 1 miss or 2 at the middle of the map, the full combo would be at 700... And I got the exact same amout of pp than a FC hrhd 1300 combo and quite good accuracy with the same bpm (200~).
This is a totally random example to explain that there's A LOT of maps overated like this. Especially those DT <160 BPM that are even easier with DT. Nobody can deny it.
It looks like you're comparing two different maps' pp values with different mods, which isn't a good comparison. The two maps could have vastly different mapping patterns, which would skew the pp values.Yales wrote:
I remember I did a random hddt play one time on a 130bpm map (200~ with dt), got quite a bad accuracy, 1 miss or 2 at the middle of the map, the full combo would be at 700... And I got the exact same amout of pp than a FC hrhd 1300 combo and quite good accuracy with the same bpm (200~).
This is a totally random example to explain that there's A LOT of maps overated like this. Especially those DT <160 BPM that are even easier with DT. Nobody can deny it.
(Assuming you're talking about two different maps since you're saying that you DT'd something at "~200" BPM and comparing the pp value gained from that to someone with an "FC hdhr 1300 combo... with the same bpm (200~)")
I don't know any single map that becomes easier with DT, mind showing some examples?Yales wrote:
This is a totally random example to explain that there's A LOT of maps overated like this. Especially those DT <160 BPM that are even easier with DT. Nobody can deny it.
The only maps that become easier with DT are maps from 2007-2008 that have badly chosen difficulty settings.
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/31408GoldenWolf wrote:
I don't know any single map that becomes easier with DT, mind showing some examples?Yales wrote:
This is a totally random example to explain that there's A LOT of maps overated like this. Especially those DT <160 BPM that are even easier with DT. Nobody can deny it.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/195039 <- I was talking about this map btw.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/237649
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/61684
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/170775
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/95148 <- Perfect example too
etc.etc.etc.
Basically.
I'm comparing what I find easier/harder to play against the result.TMoI wrote:
It looks like you're comparing two different maps' pp values with different mods, which isn't a good comparison.
Assuming you're talking about two different maps
Let's take this one as example. https://osu.ppy.sh/s/95148 The BPM might be slow. It's way harder to clear/fc with HR than DT (BECAUSE this is a slow bpm). But at the end, you'll have more PP with DT. Something like this.TMoI wrote:
Assuming you're talking about two different maps
I wasn't talking about the same map. But this works too.
To make it clearer. Whether dt is overrated whether hr is underrated but in any case there's a problem here. At a point that I didn't even find necessary to explain this in my first post. I thought that was really obvious.
I tried to explain it in a general way but if you want my own example to explain this. It will be even more obvious.
To me it just seems like you're confusing "what I think is hard" with "What is hard".
I suck at HR. There are probably a bunch of maps I can FC easily with DT but not as easily with HR. Does that mean that HR should be worth more pp? No. it simply means I'm bad at HR. Nothing more.
HR starts getting you a lot of pp if you use it on maps that are hard.
I suck at HR. There are probably a bunch of maps I can FC easily with DT but not as easily with HR. Does that mean that HR should be worth more pp? No. it simply means I'm bad at HR. Nothing more.
HR starts getting you a lot of pp if you use it on maps that are hard.
Which is not the case for DT which gives a good amount of pp no matter what. Glad you understood.PlasticSmoothie wrote:
HR starts getting you a lot of pp if you use it on maps that are hard.
It depends on your individual skills. You get more accuracy with high bpm than low bpm (apparently even with the tighter timing windows when applying DT to slow maps). Personally, I find the DT version of the maps harder (specially this map https://osu.ppy.sh/s/95148, which is too fast for me currently; I get more accuracy with HR than with DT even though the OD is 7).Yales wrote:
This is a totally random example to explain that there's A LOT of maps overated like this. Especially those DT <160 BPM that are even easier with DT. Nobody can deny it.
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/31408
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/195039 <- I was talking about this map btw.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/237649
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/61684
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/170775
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/95148 <- Perfect example too
etc.etc.etc.
Basically.
Let's take this one as example. https://osu.ppy.sh/s/95148 The BPM might be slow. It's way harder to clear/fc with HR than DT (BECAUSE this is a slow bpm). But at the end, you'll have more PP with DT. Something like this.
I wasn't talking about the same map. But this works too.
To make it clearer. Whether dt is overrated whether hr is underrated but in any case there's a problem here. At a point that I didn't even find necessary to explain this in my first post. I thought that was really obvious.
I tried to explain it in a general way but if you want my own example to explain this. It will be even more obvious.
I think that considering the faster version of the maps harder makes more sense, since they are technically harder. A player that knows how to stream slow or is fast enough to singletap the streams in the low bpm maps would consider them very easy.
You may have a point. Thank you for your answer.Full Tablet wrote:
It depends on your individual skills. You get more accuracy with high bpm than low bpm (apparently even with the tighter timing windows when applying DT to slow maps). Personally, I find the DT version of the maps harder (specially this map https://osu.ppy.sh/s/95148, which is too fast for me currently; I get more accuracy with HR than with DT even though the OD is 7).
I think that considering the faster version of the maps harder makes more sense, since they are technically harder. A player that knows how to stream slow or is fast enough to singletap the streams in the low bpm maps would consider them very easy.
But I don't think you're totally right. the new pp system is supposed to work on individual skill. Why I can't gain pp for trying to be accurate with hr then? I gain PP only by playing dt. More or less. At least I gain pp easier this way. -> It means there's a problem on the calculation of my skill then? My accuracy sucks, there's no way I reached a limit xD.
-> dt > hr (in my case even I find it easier, for the map I quoted at least).
Because yes, my topranks is full of random bad dt plays. while my osutp is full of hdhr for which I spent time, and it was hard to reach this result (FC, acc, etc.) Almost none of those maps are in my toprank PP though.. And I'm talking about insanes maps only, of course.
Here's a draw I made of what I think the system calculation looks like. (ofc, every map is different but osutp made this difference pretty well so... go check it).
This is supposed to be a pyramid.
Here's the version as it is now: http://puu.sh/8GYjs.jpg
And here's my improved version : http://puu.sh/8GYom.jpg
Fair enough I guess.
None of these maps were any easier with DT to me..
What you find easier/harder might be harder/easier for someone else, you won't neccesarily get rewarded for a score you struggled to set, and you might get rewarded a lot for a score you got on the first try, whatever is considered hard or not by the system
That doesn't mean the system is perfect of course, but I think not everyone can be totally pleased because we all have different opinion on what is and isn't hard
The actual balance is fine in my opinion, I would only like to see a way to take reading difficulty into account though
What you find easier/harder might be harder/easier for someone else, you won't neccesarily get rewarded for a score you struggled to set, and you might get rewarded a lot for a score you got on the first try, whatever is considered hard or not by the system
That doesn't mean the system is perfect of course, but I think not everyone can be totally pleased because we all have different opinion on what is and isn't hard
The actual balance is fine in my opinion, I would only like to see a way to take reading difficulty into account though
I'm not saying it's bad! I mean don't get me wrong, when I don't play just to chill I play for tp instead of PP (personal preference) but it's always a bit sad to get some tp for some scores I found really hard and the pp system doesn't acknowledge me this. While it does for the 2 dt maps I play per week. You're saying it's just a coincidence that it's dt maps, i don't know. anyway.GoldenWolf wrote:
None of these maps were any easier with DT to me..
What you find easier/harder might be harder/easier for someone else, you won't neccesarily get rewarded for a score you struggled to set, and you might get rewarded a lot for a score you got on the first try, whatever is considered hard or not by the system
That doesn't mean the system is perfect of course, but I think not everyone can be totally pleased because we all have different opinion on what is and isn't hard
The actual balance is fine in my opinion, I would only like to see a way to take reading difficulty into account though
That's it.
" I would only like to see a way to take reading difficulty into account though"
Yep.
But tp is pp.Yales wrote:
I'm not saying it's bad! I mean don't get me wrong, when I don't play just to chill I play for tp instead of PP (personal preference) but it's always a bit sad to get some tp for some scores I found really hard and the pp system doesn't acknowledge me this. While it does for the 2 dt maps I play per week. You're saying it's just a coincidence that it's dt maps, i don't know. anyway.GoldenWolf wrote:
None of these maps were any easier with DT to me..
What you find easier/harder might be harder/easier for someone else, you won't neccesarily get rewarded for a score you struggled to set, and you might get rewarded a lot for a score you got on the first try, whatever is considered hard or not by the system
That doesn't mean the system is perfect of course, but I think not everyone can be totally pleased because we all have different opinion on what is and isn't hard
The actual balance is fine in my opinion, I would only like to see a way to take reading difficulty into account though
That's it.
" I would only like to see a way to take reading difficulty into account though"
Yep.
EDIT: outdated pp*
DT should be nerfed.
end of story.
end of story.
DeletedUser_613592
You can't nerf DT without nerfing maps of similar BPM and difficulty settings. The system treats DT, HT, HR as if they are a map with those difficulty settings.
Or you should be buffed. DT as a whole should not be nerfed, if anything buffed in some areas. Small notes should be buffed and large notes should be nerfed. Large jumps should be nerfed and fast jumps should be buffed.dennischan wrote:
DT should be nerfed.
end of story.
END OF STORY NO DEBATE ALLOWED I AM SUPREME LEADER.
uhhm well i have a question.
even though i keep on getting PP my rank decrease like when i had 1000~~ i been 38 000 or so and now when i have 1057 i am 40 000 and seem like i can't increase in rank. any tips how to get my rank higher? i usually play hards/insanes in which i get [a/s in hards] and [b/c/a in insanes]
ps: if i wrote in wrong section dont hate me please~~
even though i keep on getting PP my rank decrease like when i had 1000~~ i been 38 000 or so and now when i have 1057 i am 40 000 and seem like i can't increase in rank. any tips how to get my rank higher? i usually play hards/insanes in which i get [a/s in hards] and [b/c/a in insanes]
ps: if i wrote in wrong section dont hate me please~~
Play what other people near your rank have in their top performances.
Was there a change recently? I didn't see anything in the changelog and I'm sure my ranking already updated when I earned my pp from the other day, but I updated my rank today with a junky score on a new map and went from ~13,100 to 12,477.
It's the only change I found recently so I doubt it's that
yeah i went from 20k -> 19k as well (without doing anything)Ethelon wrote:
Was there a change recently? I didn't see anything in the changelog and I'm sure my ranking already updated when I earned my pp from the other day, but I updated my rank today with a junky score on a new map and went from ~13,100 to 12,477.
probably cus inactive users are not being counted in rank anymore? i think thats it
I dropped 384 ranks overnight and this happened:
Something is up there :0
Edit: It's fixed now.
Something is up there :0
Edit: It's fixed now.
Someone I know made an unlimitation play and got 177pp for this score: http://puu.sh/8J8SX.jpg. 89% acc, 1 miss.
I made this play: http://puu.sh/8J8VD.jpg. I have 2.5% better accuracy and another miss, yet the score isn't even on my top performances so is worth <108pp.
For frame of reference, a 97% accuracy fc is worth 217pp, http://puu.sh/8J907.jpg.
I doubt the insane pp difference is caused by 1 miss (the improved accuracy I got should just about account for the extra miss alone, shouldn't it?) so is my score worth so little because of low max combo? Other than accuracy and the amount of misses, the only thing that could be causing a loss of pp is max combo, right?
If so, I'm a bit surprised that a lower max combo can really affect a score from being 180~ to <108.
I made this play: http://puu.sh/8J8VD.jpg. I have 2.5% better accuracy and another miss, yet the score isn't even on my top performances so is worth <108pp.
For frame of reference, a 97% accuracy fc is worth 217pp, http://puu.sh/8J907.jpg.
I doubt the insane pp difference is caused by 1 miss (the improved accuracy I got should just about account for the extra miss alone, shouldn't it?) so is my score worth so little because of low max combo? Other than accuracy and the amount of misses, the only thing that could be causing a loss of pp is max combo, right?
If so, I'm a bit surprised that a lower max combo can really affect a score from being 180~ to <108.
yep it's the significantly lower max combo. i think because holding a combo involves aim, speed, and accuracy [in that order of importance] whereas accuracy is... simply accuracy.
you have only a bit over half their combo. since combo is still the main way to get score, tom decided that it should also be a big factor in the amount of pp a score gives.
I see. I knew it was a factor but wow, the pp difference is insane.silmarilen wrote:
you have only a bit over half their combo. since combo is still the main way to get score, tom decided that it should also be a big factor in the amount of pp a score gives.
As far as I can tell, your pp for missing combo is approximately equal to max pp for that song * (your combo / max combo)
So if you have half combo you will get about half pp score.
So if you have half combo you will get about half pp score.
Hm, interesting. Can Tom confirm/deny this?casmith789 wrote:
As far as I can tell, your pp for missing combo is approximately equal to max pp for that song * (your combo / max combo)
So if you have half combo you will get about half pp score.
Topic Starter
The scalar from combo is (Your combo)^X / (Max combo)^X where X = 0.8 for standard. It's not quite as strict as (your combo / max combo).Rewben2 wrote:
Hm, interesting. Can Tom confirm/deny this?casmith789 wrote:
As far as I can tell, your pp for missing combo is approximately equal to max pp for that song * (your combo / max combo)
So if you have half combo you will get about half pp score.
I remember reading something about this a long time ago, but is there a maximum to the amount of pp someone can hold? I recall reading that 10,000 pp would be the cap, but that sounds inconvenient. Looking at the way this system works, theoretically, if your first 14 top ranks are 1000 pp each, you'd hold 10240 pp solely for those 14 ranks combined (based on the percentages I've seen of my own scores). I doubt that it would cap, but is there anyone who can confirm this?
the only cap there is is the cap of ssing every single beatmap with hd hr fl dt. putting a hard cap on something like this is seriously stupid
id be interested to see the max pp possible then because I remember checking a hackers top ranks and a DT score on airman was well over 800-900 pp imagine every play being thatsilmarilen wrote:
the only cap there is is the cap of ssing every single beatmap with hd hr fl dt. putting a hard cap on something like this is seriously stupid
The day ppv2 was introduced there were 2 cheaters (who obviously wanted to find this "max" as well) who managed to get 30,000pp in just over 20 maps IIRC.Bassist Vinyl wrote:
id be interested to see the max pp possible then because I remember checking a hackers top ranks and a DT score on airman was well over 800-900 pp imagine every play being thatsilmarilen wrote:
the only cap there is is the cap of ssing every single beatmap with hd hr fl dt. putting a hard cap on something like this is seriously stupid
Adding all 4 mods to a 270 BPM stream map is a totally unrealistic comparison. There is no point to finding this "max."
There is no cap in the algorithm. It's not relative like ppv1 was, in that you don't need opposition to get past a certain pp threshold. That was a soft-cap, but there is no soft-cap either for ppv2. The only cap is the maps available, as said above, which I'd prefer to term "limit." To find that, you'd need to 4mod SS all of them.
I figured. Adding a cap wouldn't make sense. I wonder how many pp the #1 will have next year. Judging from how I can sometimes lose 100 ranks just from idling for 2 days, people are seriously working on their skill. I like how "pp farming" doesn't hold the negative connotation it used to hold. That said, with this incentive given, it looks like we're going to have several very good players in due time.
Also, 4mod SS'ing a map like Image Material isn't humanly possible. I doubt that any amount of practice can enable you to SS a 6-minute map at AR11, OD10, and CS5, with 390BPM streams all over the place - and that is excluding HDFL, which would mean you practically wouldn't even see what you were playing. It's not even worth thinking about getting the maximum pp on maps like those.
Also, maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't your spinner efficiency also (slightly) affect your pp gain? That would mean that even among SSes, the SS with better spinning would still give more. That'd make the max pp still nearly impossible to get, since I don't know anyone who can spin at 477RPM consistently.
Also, 4mod SS'ing a map like Image Material isn't humanly possible. I doubt that any amount of practice can enable you to SS a 6-minute map at AR11, OD10, and CS5, with 390BPM streams all over the place - and that is excluding HDFL, which would mean you practically wouldn't even see what you were playing. It's not even worth thinking about getting the maximum pp on maps like those.
Also, maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't your spinner efficiency also (slightly) affect your pp gain? That would mean that even among SSes, the SS with better spinning would still give more. That'd make the max pp still nearly impossible to get, since I don't know anyone who can spin at 477RPM consistently.
Tess wrote:
Also, maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't your spinner efficiency also (slightly) affect your pp gain?
All maps have a cap, no matter how fast you spin.Tom94 wrote:
It is impossible to find out how good someone has spun without per-hitobject data. If it ever happens there will be a small bonus for spinning well, but it is certain that it will never happen to old scores retroactively. It's simply impossible to recover that data for scores without replays and even the ones with replays would have subtle bugs.
To summarize: A spinner bonus can't possibly happen right now in a fair way, therefore it won't. Sorry.
That cap is impossible to humanly obtain on most maps, though. But thanks for answering.
I have noticed this same thing happening with EVERY map, combo being the only variable. Unfortunately I do not have exact numbers, but here are the rough figures from memory: (on https://osu.ppy.sh/b/291996)Rewben2 wrote:
Someone I know made an unlimitation play and got 177pp for this score: http://puu.sh/8J8SX.jpg. 89% acc, 1 miss.
I made this play: http://puu.sh/8J8VD.jpg. I have 2.5% better accuracy and another miss, yet the score isn't even on my top performances so is worth <108pp.
For frame of reference, a 97% accuracy fc is worth 217pp, http://puu.sh/8J907.jpg.
I doubt the insane pp difference is caused by 1 miss (the improved accuracy I got should just about account for the extra miss alone, shouldn't it?) so is my score worth so little because of low max combo? Other than accuracy and the amount of misses, the only thing that could be causing a loss of pp is max combo, right?
If so, I'm a bit surprised that a lower max combo can really affect a score from being 180~ to <108.
I had ~400/545 combo with 96% accuracy and was given about 40pp for it
Then I went back and got a full combo with a slightly higher accuracy (~96.5%) and was given 100pp for it
another example (exact numbers from https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=229180):
~96% accuracy with 539/617 combo: 79pp
SS: 131pp
third example for demonstration's sake (exact numbers from https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=93842):
~97% accuracy with 330/892 combo: 56pp
SS: 150pp
How the <edited explicit> is a full combo worth more than double a near-full combo with comparable accuracy? PPv2 weights combo so high that combo is pretty much the only deciding factor until you get a full combo (and then accuracy only shifts +/- 10% or so).
mastaa_p wrote:
I have noticed this same thing happening with EVERY map, combo being the only variable. Unfortunately I do not have exact numbers, but here are the rough figures from memory: (on https://osu.ppy.sh/b/291996)Rewben2 wrote:
Someone I know made an unlimitation play and got 177pp for this score: http://puu.sh/8J8SX.jpg. 89% acc, 1 miss.
I made this play: http://puu.sh/8J8VD.jpg. I have 2.5% better accuracy and another miss, yet the score isn't even on my top performances so is worth <108pp.
For frame of reference, a 97% accuracy fc is worth 217pp, http://puu.sh/8J907.jpg.
I doubt the insane pp difference is caused by 1 miss (the improved accuracy I got should just about account for the extra miss alone, shouldn't it?) so is my score worth so little because of low max combo? Other than accuracy and the amount of misses, the only thing that could be causing a loss of pp is max combo, right?
If so, I'm a bit surprised that a lower max combo can really affect a score from being 180~ to <108.
I had ~400/545 combo with 96% accuracy and was given about 40pp for it
Then I went back and got a full combo with a slightly higher accuracy (~96.5%) and was given 100pp for it
another example (exact numbers from https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=229180):
~96% accuracy with 539/617 combo: 79pp
SS: 131pp
third example for demonstration's sake (exact numbers from https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=93842):
~97% accuracy with 330/892 combo: 56pp
SS: 150pp
How the <edited explicit> is a full combo worth more than double a near-full combo with comparable accuracy? PPv2 weights combo so high that combo is pretty much the only deciding factor until you get a full combo (and then accuracy only shifts +/- 10% or so).
Tom posted the formula for max combo. It is pretty harsh yeah, unless you're towards the full-combo mark your pp output is going to get shot down by quite a bit. If you get less than half of the maximum combo you can pretty much say goodbye to your pp. I'm not complaining, the intention is that the combo is the main way of getting score thus it should be a big factor in getting pp, which I understand.
Your first example is rather interesting; the difference is a tiny bit of accuracy and the first score was about 73%~ of the max combo, yet the pp output was about 2.5x higher for the second score. Are you sure those are the exact values you had for both before and after and the pp given? Because that doesn't seem normal. Did you have a few misses on the first score before you fc'd? That could explain it.
The last two examples are rather expected. The second example has pretty bad accuracy and the last one is very far off a fc with also missing acc.
I probably had a miss or two, I was just trying to highlight how ridiculous the weight is on combo as opposed to accuracy or map difficulty (50% combo on a map twice as hard as another with a full combo is worth less than half the fc pp). As to addressing the first example: I can verify that the pp given was around 40 (I was annoyed by this at the time) and the exact figures from the score were 400/535 combo with ~97% acc. Somehow I managed that with 8 misses, no idea how I did that XD.Rewben2 wrote:
mastaa_p wrote:
I have noticed this same thing happening with EVERY map, combo being the only variable. Unfortunately I do not have exact numbers, but here are the rough figures from memory: (on https://osu.ppy.sh/b/291996)
I had ~400/545 combo with 96% accuracy and was given about 40pp for it
Then I went back and got a full combo with a slightly higher accuracy (~96.5%) and was given 100pp for it
another example (exact numbers from https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=229180):
~96% accuracy with 539/617 combo: 79pp
SS: 131pp
third example for demonstration's sake (exact numbers from https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=93842):
~97% accuracy with 330/892 combo: 56pp
SS: 150pp
How the <edited explicit> is a full combo worth more than double a near-full combo with comparable accuracy? PPv2 weights combo so high that combo is pretty much the only deciding factor until you get a full combo (and then accuracy only shifts +/- 10% or so).
Tom posted the formula for max combo. It is pretty harsh yeah, unless you're towards the full-combo mark your pp output is going to get shot down by quite a bit. If you get less than half of the maximum combo you can pretty much say goodbye to your pp. I'm not complaining, the intention is that the combo is the main way of getting score thus it should be a big factor in getting pp, which I understand.
Your first example is rather interesting; the difference is a tiny bit of accuracy and the first score was about 73%~ of the max combo, yet the pp output was about 2.5x higher for the second score. Are you sure those are the exact values you had for both before and after and the pp given? Because that doesn't seem normal. Did you have a few misses on the first score before you fc'd? That could explain it.
The last two examples are rather expected. The second example has pretty bad accuracy and the last one is very far off a fc with also missing acc.
Tom94 wrote:
Let me repeat once again, the system rates the quality of your performance. It is not intended to give a lot of points to plays on hard maps which you can barely pass. Imagine playing the piano. You don't perform in a concert with a damn hard piece, that you can barely play with quite a lot of mistakes.
This doesn't apply perfectly, but the idea is the same; closer to perfect performances are rewarded, breaking combo kind of kills that.
hi, a friend of mine recently improved his score on With a Dance Number [0108 style]:
the supposed improvement was from a 700 combo 96% score to this. he actually lost pp for setting the score, somehow - and i can't think of any possible causes for this happening(not to mention, the map itself is a lot harder than it is credited for, and i'm blaming the difficulty calculation for that). could you look at it and try to find the cause for it? if it was a bug of sorts, it should probably be checked, and if not, i'm not sure what the system is doing, but it can't possibly be what it should do.
e: http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/1627393 this is the old score that was overwritten - 3 less 100s, but 11 misses as opposed to none, for reference.
the supposed improvement was from a 700 combo 96% score to this. he actually lost pp for setting the score, somehow - and i can't think of any possible causes for this happening(not to mention, the map itself is a lot harder than it is credited for, and i'm blaming the difficulty calculation for that). could you look at it and try to find the cause for it? if it was a bug of sorts, it should probably be checked, and if not, i'm not sure what the system is doing, but it can't possibly be what it should do.
e: http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/1627393 this is the old score that was overwritten - 3 less 100s, but 11 misses as opposed to none, for reference.