That's not what that part of the wiki is supposed to say at all. It should just say, that beatmap length is measured is based on amount of hitobjects, not on time. It has exactly nothing to do with density, since a 5 minute map with 1000 hitobjects would get the same length bonus as a 1 minute map with 1000 hitobjects.Luna wrote:
Basically, high note density = hard, low density = easy
10 notes per second is harder than 5 notes per second
Simple stuff like that
http://osutp.net/beatmapsDexus wrote:
I made a thread but then realized there was this thread so I nuked the other one. Just going to copy/paste it into here.
So how do you calculate star diffiuclty with mods, or is this a ppv2 wiki/future topic we will have to wait for? I'm curious as to how much it affects the star rating when adding DT / HR / HD so I can gauge more accurately how difficult a map is. Like say someone was to play this map https://osu.ppy.sh/s/132095 [Hard] with DT the star rating would go from 2.05 to ? as compared to playing HR+HD. HD and DT have static multipliers to the difficulty while HR has that ceiling effect (excluding CS) so I'd assume it's not something to be so easily calculated without using a program/the game?
basically DT > HR > FL > HD. i'm not exactly sure what you mean by "various difficulty settings actually being factored into the star difficulty" since ppv2 is pretty much based of tp and hence the song's difficulty is the same. if you want to see what the mods do, tick the boxes and you can see how the level goes up. HD and FL just give bonus aim points (there are 3 components, aim(cursor), speed(mostly bpm) and accuracy (self explanatory)). an perfect FC give maximum speed and aim points, and more accuracy gives more accuracy points.Dexus wrote:
Those aren't weighted the same due to various difficulty settings actually being factored into the star difficulty.
This will be easier to figure out when the game's internal star system gets updated and to work dynamically with the mods selected.
this is good to hear.Tom94 wrote:
tastystew is correct. However there can be edge-cases where DT / HR might have a different ordering or even be below FL or HD. Really depends on the maps. Detailed explanations on how the difficulty is computed are a future wiki topic.
The star rating at the moment is pretty much equivalent to the osu!tp level, just scaled in another way. Therefore the same changes through mods apply.Dexus wrote:
I know what the mods do in general to aim/speed/etc , you're not really understanding me. I really just want to see how the star rating is affected through mods. From what I can see the "level" in osutp isn't the same as it only seems to factor the aim/speed while "star rating" includes OD, AR, CS, etc. So looking at the lists there are differences in how it is sorted. It's fine for now as I can see in the future the star rating changes due to mod usage on a map may possibly be shown.
It's just weird because two different maps, Map A having a higher star rating while B has a lower star rating (they are relatively close) . Both are done with mods and get the same acc yet map B rewards more. I wanted to see if possibly when mods are on they show that map B may possibly have a higher rating than map A.
I hope that makes sense.
electrolytes wrote:
I'm curious: the new star system looks like it compresses the previous 1-to-just-below-5 range into maybe a third or less of what it was (perhaps 1 to ~2.2). Is anything planned to allow searching for ranges of difficulty, similarly to with OD, AR, HP, and CS? (ex. "sd>1.9 sd<2.2"). Maybe something like this (other than the difficulty sort, which groups things by a full star apart) already exists and I just don't know about it. If it doesn't though, it seems like it might become much harder to search for beatmaps around the same level of difficulty when the star difficulty changes are brought into the client. This is all assuming the 1-to-5 star range stays around of course.
Its in the works.Tom94 wrote:
All planned.Keeby wrote:
It would be nice to implement the star system in-game, if possible.
Fixed. It didn't get updated with its actual difficulty value for some reason. The internal pp difficulties were stored correctly. (rrtyui only got 211 for his #1)silmarilen wrote:
is this map https://osu.ppy.sh/s/155691 really supposed to be 5.00 stars? tp rates it at lvl 67
That would mislead many people into thinking the scores were considered "worse" instead of only having a weight applied.Dexus wrote:
How does weighting add up to such a high amount of pp for players when stuff exponentially yields less in comparison to your Top most performance. A mass amount of scores are weighted as 0%. Am I reading the list wrong and the weighting is already applied to the shown pp amount?
If it isn't then I would like for the top performances if possible to show the pp*weighting amount automatically; and then next to the % show the current displayed mount of pp without the percentage affecting it; that way instead of showing a bunch of 400pp, 300pp, 300pp, it would show the right amounts 400pp, 285pp, 270pp, etc.
sounds cool, i'm too lazy to do the math most of the time so yeahDexus wrote:
I really like the idea of showing how much PP it's worth after weighing though. Perhaps to a decimal or two for the ones giving base PP?Tom94 wrote:
Every score gives a small base pp amount of 0.25, decreasing by a bit with every new highscore that you make. With 1000 highscores you get around 200pp and with 5000 around 400pp. The cap is 416.666pp at the moment, assuming infinitely many highscores are possible.
(pp gain = 0.25 * sum 0.9994^i, i=0 to amount of highscores)
This gets less and less relevant the higher your pp goes and is meant to both encourage playing more maps for the lower-level players and prevent big rank losses after making a new score at the lower ranks.
In the mid-high ranks it is pretty much irrelevant, since 99% of the people have enough highscores to be less than 50pp away from the cap.
Newsflash: That wasn't the point.silmarilen wrote:
newsflash: big black is not the hardest thing in existence
It's a significantly more difficult map. Not to mention he's got like a 8 million lead...silmarilen wrote:
so... what else would be the point?
165 * 2 = 330 as opposed to 360.3 BPM on The Big Black. If you add in the sudden jumps and hidden it probably is a more difficult map, but that's subjective really. 7,802,730 point lead and 3.80% more accurate than HappyStick. The map has also been played much more than Remote Control. The PP system is horribly vague...Zare wrote:
That's the point silmarilen addressed tho.
Remote Control on HDDT is harder to FC than Big Black Nomod.
ppv2 doesn't take your lead into consideration .Even if rryui was second, third or last, it wouldn't matter. Also, take into consideration that rrtyui missed 3 times on big black, which greatly reduces his pp gained from the map.MPGHThunder wrote:
165 * 2 = 330 as opposed to 360.3 BPM on The Big Black. If you add in the sudden jumps and hidden it probably is a more difficult map, but that's subjective really. 7,802,730 point lead and 3.80% more accurate than HappyStick. The map has also been played much more than Remote Control. The PP system is horribly vague...Zare wrote:
That's the point silmarilen addressed tho.
Remote Control on HDDT is harder to FC than Big Black Nomod.
I obviously DON'T have a grasp of what I'm talking about, but that was apparent from the first post. So instead of giving me half-baked answers, how about you stop for a second and actually give me a concise answer instead of acting like I'm an idiot. OK? Thanks.silmarilen wrote:
please, if you dont know what you're talking about, dont talk about it. just the fact that you think double time doubles the bpm already shows you dont, not to mention all the other flaws in your argument.
The Big Black is slower than Remote Control DT and has less aim strain than Remote Control DT. The Big Black doesn't play like a 360 bpm, it plays more like a 180 bpm. Score has nothing to do with how much pp you get also. The amount of contenders a map has (total map plays) has nothing to do with the amount of pp it gives either. Those are old methods to find how much pp a map gives. Remote Control DT is also 10.3 which gives a small bonus because it is over ar10, I don't know what the value for the bonus is. Remote Control DT is also OD10.3 which requires you to be more accurate than typical hardrock (od10). All of these things make Remote Control DT give more pp than The Big Black.MPGHThunder wrote:
I obviously DON'T have a grasp of what I'm talking about, but that was apparent from the first post. So instead of giving me half-baked answers, how about you stop for a second and actually give me a concise answer instead of acting like I'm an idiot. OK? Thanks.silmarilen wrote:
please, if you dont know what you're talking about, dont talk about it. just the fact that you think double time doubles the bpm already shows you dont, not to mention all the other flaws in your argument.
Thanks, that's all I needed to know.silmarilen wrote:
ok then very well.
first of all, big black may be mapped at 360 bpm, but it plays like a 180 bpm map, so for all intents and purposes it is considered 180 bpm.
second of all, DT multiplies the bpm by 1.5x, not by 2x, so remote control DT would be 247.5.
ok now that that's out of the way lets move on to the next point
the score rrtyui got compared to someone else doesnt matter, all that matters is how difficult the map is according to the difficulty algorithm and rrtyui's combo/accuracy/amount of misses. so even if #2 had only 5 combo it still wouldnt make a difference to the amount of pp rrtyui would get. even if rrtyui was rank 4.000.000/4.000.000 it still wouldnt influence his pp at all
and then lets get on to the difficulty of the maps. as i already said, big black is not the hardest thing there is, i would look at it as an easier version of this map if it wasnt for the sliders
remote control has some fullscreen jumps (which are bigger than the ones on big black aswell) and adding DT makes it 247.5 bpm (thats a whole 67.5 more than big black, since we already agreed on that it's just 180 bpm). it also has a lot of triples and 1/2 notes at the start with difficult movement without much time for breathing. so yes, remote control is harder than big black
dat information tho.Full Tablet wrote:
Is the length bonus factor, when calculating the accuracy pp of a play, independent from the accuracy percentage?
For SS, the expected probability of hitting each hit correctly tends to 100% (perfection) when increasing the amount of circles
[expected in the sense that the (probability of hitting each circle correctly) makes it so the (probability of getting a rate of correctly hit circles equal or higher than the rate of correctly hit circles in the score calculated) is equal to a predetermined probability],
while for 95% rate of 300s, the probability tends to be only 95% (and the value comes closer to 95% more quickly than in the SS case).
Because of that, accuracy-wise, there isn't much difference between getting 96%acc in 200 circles and 300 circles, while the difference is more notable between a SS in 200 circles and 300 circles.
As a way to quantify the difference, here is a set of graphs comparing how much the Expected Unstable Rate changes when changing the amount of circles (with a formula based on the expected unstable rate formula I showed months ago, but this time accounting for the probability of getting 50's and MISSES; this new formula shows similar values with high accuracy, but more accurate values with low accuracy, the downside is that it takes a ridiculous amount of time to calculate: calculating only 140 points for the graphs took about 1 hour). Here is a sample of the 2 formulas in a graph varying accuracy with the other variables constant: http://i.imgur.com/6LdrKIg.png (The one with the lower values on low accuracy is the new formula).
All the graphs are calculated with OD10 (changing the OD doesn't make much difference in the graphs with high accuracy, since with high accuracy the prevalent hit window is the one for 300s, so changing from OD7 to OD10 just roughly halves the expected unstable rate).
In the X axis is the amount of circles, and in the Y axis is (Expected UR with 100 circles) / (Expected UR with X circles) (that way the influence of accuracy alone and OD is discarded from the graph). That way, a Y value of "2" means half the expected unstable rate compared to 100 circles.
The 2 sets have the following difference:
The first set sets the (probability of getting the accuracy inputted in the formula, or more) with the (expected UR calculated) to 50% (that way, the accuracy corresponds to the median accuracy with only 1 try).
The second set tries to model the amount of expected retries a map would get based on the amount of circles: A map with 100 circles would be retried 108 times, with 200 circles half that amount, etc... (this assumes the player has the patience to play each map only a set amount of time, and that the amount of circles is directly proportional to the time each retry takes) This way maps that are more likely to get "fluke" accuracies caused by a lot of retries would give less (for example, a player who only has the skill needed to get 90% chance of hitting a 300 would eventually get a SS in a map with 30 circles if he retries a lot of times, but that would be practically impossible if the map has over 100 circles). If a map is replayed 50 times all with the same Unstable Rate, then the (probability of getting the accuracy inputted in the formula, or more) with the (expected UR calculated) is equal to 1/(1+50) (this corresponds to the formula of the expected value of the lowest value obtained in a perfect die with infinite sides with values that range from 0 to 1). I know this is not the best way to model the amount of retries, but it is something.
First Set:
http://i.imgur.com/SaWoo9P.png
http://i.imgur.com/jPIsZa6.png
Second Set:
http://i.imgur.com/hgVcl5O.png
http://i.imgur.com/OrmhWu2.png
Blue: Graph for SS.
Purple: Graph for 99%acc
Brown: Graph for 95%acc
Green: Graph for 85%acc (95% and 85% graph lines overlap each other since they have very similar values)
As you can see, in the SS case, the amount of circles has a bigger impact compared to the other cases with lower accuracy. Also, the point where increasing the amount of circles doesn't change significantly the expected unstable rate anymore is set farther to the right of the X axis when the accuracy increases. For any accuracy inferior to 100%, there is an horizontal asymptote of the graphs, but for 100%accuracy, the Y value goes to infinity (since, with an infinite amount of circles, the expected UR to get 100%accuracy is 0).
For high accuracy on circles (Acc > 0.7, so the hit window of the 300 judgment is predominant), the value of the asymptote for the expected unstable rate is approximately:(The asymptote is the same both for the cases with only 1 retry and several expected retries).
THIS gives a bit too much PPGoldenWolf wrote:
I always felt like this map gave a little bit too much pp, I guess it's because of the long-ish spaced streams?
I guess you're right, that was probably a poor thing to add on my part.silmarilen wrote:
map length should not be an indicator for how much pp a map gives, perfect example being this map https://osu.ppy.sh/s/20328
i personally think the map is you linked pretty hard to fc and worth the pp it gives.
Yeah, I've noticed spaced stream maps are worth a ton of pp. Two more maps I've noticed along with that one are:GoldenWolf wrote:
I always felt like this map gave a little bit too much pp, I guess it's because of the long-ish spaced streams?
Probably because you're 2gud at jumpsAqo wrote:
am I the only one who finds both of those maps incredibly hard compared to other maps worth more points simply because of jumps which are super easy?
I know it's hard, but it has a star rating on par with like kokou no sousei and other maps that I think are more difficult without a doubt.GoldenWolf wrote:
Gimme nightcore seems a little bit overrated yeah, but there are no spaced stream in rog-unlimitation though, the star rating there is fine because it has two 64 circles streams at 220bpm...
They're not the same, kokou no sousei has fullscreen squares at 240bpm, rog-unlimitation deathstreams at 220.. not the same kind of difficulty at allRewben2 wrote:
I know it's hard, but it has a star rating on par with like kokou no sousei and other maps that I think are more difficult without a doubt.
I see what you mean, they are difficult in their own ways, do you really think unlimitation is nearly as hard as sousei? Sousei has no fc's (apart from you know who) and unlimitation has multiple HDHR scores, lol. I think there are very little players that would actually find unlimitation harder despite having a higher star rating.GoldenWolf wrote:
They're not the same, kokou no sousei has fullscreen squares at 240bpm, rog-unlimitation deathstreams at 220.. not the same kind of difficulty at allRewben2 wrote:
I know it's hard, but it has a star rating on par with like kokou no sousei and other maps that I think are more difficult without a doubt.
Damn ponies and their pp. It seems as though shorter maps have way too much emphasis on accuracy, considering how easy it is to retry them until you get a better percentage.silmarilen wrote:
134pp is nothing, the map is star rating 2.23, i know maps with similar star rating that give close to 200pp *cough* https://osu.ppy.sh/b/112645 *cough*
I suggest you to read the pp wiki about accuracymcdoomfrag wrote:
Damn ponies and their pp. It seems as though shorter maps have way too much emphasis on accuracy, considering how easy it is to retry them until you get a better percentage.
Mind elaborating? I feel as though I'm missing something.GoldenWolf wrote:
I suggest you to read the pp wiki about accuracymcdoomfrag wrote:
Damn ponies and their pp. It seems as though shorter maps have way too much emphasis on accuracy, considering how easy it is to retry them until you get a better percentage.
almost half of the pp from the map i linked comes from accuracy, purely because it's od8+dt, there are other sub 300combo maps that give similar acc score, boosting them up by tons when they arent actually hard mapsGoldenWolf wrote:
accuracy points is calculated on the number of circles of a map and how high the OD is, it has nothing to do with the actual length of the map
Other examples of this are https://osu.ppy.sh/b/27737&m=0 and https://osu.ppy.sh/s/155691m, a lot of the difficulty is reading which the current system doesn't recognize at the moment. Tom said that he's still working on creating a satisfying algorithm for maps like these.Zare wrote:
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/227061
This map and similar ones are extremely underrated by the current system because what's the main challenge of the map is reading. I mean, the top 50 isn't even all FC (granted that's because of the 1/6 at the end but still).
Is there any chance of this getting improved at some point?
But current pp version IS v2TMoI wrote:
peppy's defense for making FL not give as much pp (during ppv2, granted, dunno how it's going to work now Tom behind the reigns) is because FL has to do more with memorization, which he thinks defeats the purpose of a rhythm game.
oopsGoldenWolf wrote:
But current pp version IS v2TMoI wrote:
peppy's defense for making FL not give as much pp (during ppv2, granted, dunno how it's going to work now Tom behind the reigns) is because FL has to do more with memorization, which he thinks defeats the purpose of a rhythm game.
I know this may be kinda selfish to ask, but can someone put this on the wiki? I'm not 100% sure of where to put it. I was thinking about this and the only way to find it was to go back quite a bit of pages. This piece of info can be interesting to some players.Tom94 wrote:
I forgot to mention this on the wiki-page:
Every score gives a small base pp amount of 0.25, decreasing by a bit with every new highscore that you make. With 1000 highscores you get around 200pp and with 5000 around 400pp. The cap is 416.666pp at the moment, assuming infinitely many highscores are possible.
(pp gain = 0.25 * sum 0.9994^i, i=0 to amount of highscores)
This gets less and less relevant the higher your pp goes and is meant to both encourage playing more maps for the lower-level players and prevent big rank losses after making a new score at the lower ranks.
In the mid-high ranks it is pretty much irrelevant, since 99% of the people have enough highscores to be less than 50pp away from the cap.
I'll just quickly do the math for you to show you just how inefficient that kind of "farming" would be:tfg50 wrote:
And also, that small base pp can amount to way too many ranks. In my case, I need to click 18 times to show all my scores on my page and you have 50 scores showing when you first open it + 50 more from each click. That means I have 900-950 scores. If i just played easy/normal maps until I got closer to the cap I would jump from rank 2757 to 2050 or lower as of right now (something between 235 and 242 pp). I feel like this kind of jump is too huge, maybe you could put a hard cap on a lower amount of scores.
Because the only hard part about them is the length.iderekmc wrote:
why do these 0108 songs give so little PP like only 160 more or less if only a few people can fc with 1 mod..? i think they should give like 250 or something lol
the accuracy is over 98% in case
I don't know any maps where you actually have to spin very fast to complete them with the exception of a Demetori song and that AugoEidEs song (dumb super long spinners). Also, losing your cursor during a spinner really only affects mouse users because of cursor drift, tablet users can use their muscle memory to hit the note with no issue. I may be wrong on this part, but isn't it against the mapping rules to put a note too soon after the spinner?TheVileOne wrote:
I am curious if there is any plans to give a spin bonus at all. There are several maps where spinning fast is more important than accuracy and these performances should be awarded something. The faster you spin the harder it is to find you cursor when you come out of the spin. There is also the cases where there are notes very closely after the spinner which would make getting bonuses more risky.
Would anyone disagree that spinning fast is a skill and should be rewarded as such?
What about unstable rates? I've seen people get SS's on maps with 120 unstable rates, and others SS with 70. Should the player with the 70 unstable rate be awarded more pp? They both did what was required of the map and achieved the SS, but one player did better and was not rewarded for it.TheVileOne wrote:
It would be a minor bonus. I don't think it would hardly affect the map's overall rating in comparison with other maps. Consider scores where the only difference between them is the spinner bonus points. I think people that can spin faster should be given more points. They got a higher score with same accuracy/ mods. Their play should be considered more highly performed. It would also counteract small changes in accuracy due to the player getting a better score from a spinner bonus. For the sake of accuracy it must be counted.
Just because peppy felt that spinners should have score bonus doesn't mean they should be given pp also. Unless unstable rates are accounted for I cannot agree that spinners should be given a bonus. In my opinion, a lower unstable rate play is much better than a higher scoring song because of a spinner bonus.TheVileOne wrote:
In a perfect world I would agree that would be considered as well. But in reality pp must be consider for the OD of a map. Also unstable rate doesn't affect score. Obviously peppy felt spinners deserved to have bonuses. Taiko doesn't allow you to get a bonus off the spinners. CTB should certainly deserve a small bonus as well.
There are many maps with tied mod combinations that only differ due to spinner bonus. We should be differentiating each tied play, because some people can get bonuses many thousands more than other players, especially on longer spinners where endurance is concerned. Why should a deserved number 1 play on a map not be considered the best performance compared to the several dozen other people who got less points?
mmmmm thats what i was thinkingjesus1412 wrote:
Because the only hard part about them is the length.iderekmc wrote:
why do these 0108 songs give so little PP like only 160 more or less if only a few people can fc with 1 mod..? i think they should give like 250 or something lol
the accuracy is over 98% in case
That means that people passed your rank and when you beat one of your personal bests your rank updates. If you spend 30 seconds looking on the other threads about ranking you can find that answer. You don't even need to use the seach thingy.Honza wrote:
I have one question. How can I get bigger rank after I've improved my old record? I mean yes if the map is easy I shouldn't get anything but how can I get worse by improving my plays?
No one cares about spinning. It's really a shitty skill and it shouldn't be rewarded much, any random crap player can outspin a lot of top players if they try.TheVileOne wrote:
It should be given pp because of several reasons.
1. It's a skill, and an integrated part of playing. There is no argument that can be made that will make me believe otherwise that someone spinning at 470 SPM is performing equally well to someone spinning at 300 SPM.
2. It affects score. A player with a higher score due to something that requires skill should be awarded something even if that something is very marginal. I don't see this value being very high, at least for sane spinning SPMs. If someone averages near what osu! can get for a max spin, then a point given per spinner is reasonable. Given that 1 mod added gives more than that, it would work out. (Obviously the value would change based on length of spinner).
3. At the rate most players spin the bonus would probably be less than 1 pp per spinner and close to nothing near the SPM considered easy to obtain given the OD.
4. Makes beating a score with a better spin rewarding.
5. Gives more points to Incognito, one of the best spinners in osu! Check this map. Adding HardRock isn't enough to take the number one spot. There are people in top 50 who get more points than four mod plays. Spinning ability is certainly more impressive in this map than playing it with all mods.
6. Removes point ceiling on maps. An SS can be worth more points with a better spin.
