Just so we're all on the same page, the map in question is a Normal. This is why its AR and OD are 5 and why it has a tp level of only 7. It's an NH set.

Carry on.

NotThat wrote:

SPOILER

I love what you've done in ppv2, really livened up my desire to play Osu!.

Here's my suggestion:


Allow sorting maps by Level as found on the osu!tp site. This level sorting should also factor in the currently selected mods.
In addition the aim and speed stats should be presented.
Thirdly the TP, or unmodified PP value should be displayed along with score.

We've all been in the position where we felt we had just scored a really good play but didn't get as much PP for it as we expected, and these changes should alleviate this problem.

End play:


This small change would give players insight as to the worth of their last play.

Didn't make a picture for it but the on the website, the user page should include modified PP rewards and perhaps also unmodified TP scores for best plays, and potentially include more than 10 maps as well.

I understand the reluctance to add a second 'scoring' method in addition to the already implemented scores, but to some extent I think it's not necessarily a bad thing. I'm sure many players already sneak peek at osu!tp website to get an idea of which maps to play and what they can expect from maps in terms of PP. These changes just integrate them into the Osu! client, with even more information.

It is planned to incorporate the difficulty algorithm into the star rating. Displaying the actual pp value of a score is also a possibility, that will be looked into.
Currently the focus is on getting pp to run in all gamemodes, but afterwards you can expect such changes.

Draxuss wrote:

hoolas wrote:

i've played a lot of insane songs [...] for exapmpel i just played athe song o2Jam (Brandy) - Cross Time [Relaxing] , which would be a "hard".

Make up your mind. To make it easy on you, I'll tell you a secret. This map is not hard.

-__- that was just an example of what i just had played at the moment of writing the post, i've played insane songs with DT, like i said, and still my pp didnt change, im not WWW of course i cant play the hardest songs. and what i see is that being 13.500, you have to pass extremely hard songs (extremely hard for my level, probably normal songs for a top 100 rank) to go up, and thats just not right.. im not saying that i wanna be top 100 in 1 week playing this kinds of songs but at least give me 1 freaking point.., do i need to pass scarlet rose with DT HD to get ponts?'...

maybe im wrong and i deserve to be stuck in 13.500 cause i just suck, but i dont see it that way..

hoolas wrote:

-__- that was just an example of what i just had played at the moment of writing the post, i've played insane songs with DT, like i said, and still my pp didnt change, im not WWW of course i cant play the hardest songs. and what i see is that being 13.500, you have to pass extremely hard songs (extremely hard for my level, probably normal songs for a top 100 rank) to go up, and thats just not right.. im not saying that i wanna be top 100 in 1 week playing this kinds of songs but at least give me 1 freaking point.., do i need to pass scarlet rose with DT HD to get ponts?'...

maybe im wrong and i deserve to be stuck in 13.500 cause i just suck, but i dont see it that way..

Go dt that kesha song you recently ss'd with hd and see if you get any pp. I'm pretty sure you will.

For the most part I like this new system, except for one thing, though I'm not sure if it's fixable. The "problem" would be that the system seems to factor in combo the most when calculating score. This means that breaking in the middle of a song, let's say on a slow slider, is much, much worse than breaking at the end of a song, let's say on some full screen jumps. In those cases, the smaller mistake is being punished more and pp would be distributed unfairly.

For a solution I, I noticed on the osutp site (http://osutp.net/info) there was a graph of speed/aim vs. time for the map Freedom Dive. My solution would be to relate pp to the area under the graph. The reasoning behind this is because to make the graph, there obviously must be points. The points should correlate to the difficulty of hitting the next note. Thus, when one fails to hit the next note the point on the graph should then go to 0 (or something like that) which would decrease the area of the graph. In this case, missing higher difficulty notes (higher points on the graph) will result in bigger pp losses than messing up on an easy note (lower point on the graph). Thus, pp distribution should be more fair with that system.

The only problem I see here is the computing power it would take to do those sorts of calculations (is it too much?). Otherwise, I feel like that would be a much more accurate calculation on a players performance in a map. Feel free to point out any flaws in my logic.

hoolas wrote:

-__- that was just an example of what i just had played at the moment of writing the post, i've played insane songs with DT, like i said, and still my pp didnt change, im not WWW of course i cant play the hardest songs. and what i see is that being 13.500, you have to pass extremely hard songs (extremely hard for my level, probably normal songs for a top 100 rank) to go up, and thats just not right.. im not saying that i wanna be top 100 in 1 week playing this kinds of songs but at least give me 1 freaking point.

Some insane songs are relatively easy and passing does not guarantee you will get points.
To earn points at around rank 13k, you either need to FC stuff in the tp lvl 50+ range or score with accuracies higher then 96% and FC songs in the lvl 40 range (99% for best results, accuracy is weighted a little much from 97->99).

hoolas wrote:

do i need to pass scarlet rose with DT HD to get ponts?'...

Probably not even physically possible because of the 480 BPM, plus stuff that is actually possible give more points: e.g. killer song.
You can get points from Scarlet Rose at rank 13k because it is about lvl 60 but you have to FC it or break only once with high accuracy.

IamNotgod wrote:

quote

For the most part I like this new system, except for one thing, though I'm not sure if it's fixable. The "problem" would be that the system seems to factor in combo the most when calculating score. This means that breaking in the middle of a song, let's say on a slow slider, is much, much worse than breaking at the end of a song, let's say on some full screen jumps. In those cases, the smaller mistake is being punished more and pp would be distributed unfairly.

For a solution I, I noticed on the osutp site (http://osutp.net/info) there was a graph of speed/aim vs. time for the map Freedom Dive. My solution would be to relate pp to the area under the graph. The reasoning behind this is because to make the graph, there obviously must be points. The points should correlate to the difficulty of hitting the next note. Thus, when one fails to hit the next note the point on the graph should then go to 0 (or something like that) which would decrease the area of the graph. In this case, missing higher difficulty notes (higher points on the graph) will result in bigger pp losses than messing up on an easy note (lower point on the graph). Thus, pp distribution should be more fair with that system.

The only problem I see here is the computing power it would take to do those sorts of calculations (is it too much?). Otherwise, I feel like that would be a much more accurate calculation on a players performance in a map. Feel free to point out any flaws in my logic.

The "Highest score is the only score that gets considered" issue has been mentioned more than just several times already. The problem is that the current infrastructure of the server won't allow consideration of other scores, so there is no current workaround that can be done within the pp algorithm. It is to be fixed, I believe. It just doesn't have the highest priority at this moment.

I'm dumb

IamNotgod was referring to a different issue (equal weighting of all parts of the map, despite inconsistent difficulty). Last I heard, Tom was interested in having pp consider "per-Hitobject" data in order to solve that, but it's not currently possible (and I don't see how it would be possible to get accurate data on that from old scores).

Personally, I think HD is the biggest "issue" right now. HD does deserve a bonus, but it doesn't belong in aim and it doesn't belong in accuracy (it also doesn't belong in speed, but it doesn't give a bonus to speed right now). The accuracy bonus in particular seems silly to me - HD gives a 2% (or something like that) bonus to accuracy under the assumption that people will mess up at reading a map when playing with it. Apparently playing with HD means we're supposed to be playing maps we can't read well and playing nomod means we're supposed to be playing maps we can read perfectly. I don't get it. The 18% bonus to aim...well, that's just really misplaced and inflated and it's even more egregious on slider-heavy maps. If and when pp incorporates pattern/reading difficulty, all of that should be solvable by just throwing the HD bonus into that instead. That could also help with flashlight - flashlight is crazy hard, but the primary difficulty with it has nothing to do with aim, speed, or accuracy.

Speaking of flashlight, its bonus should probably scale with the player's max combo instead of being a flat 36%. Flashlighting a 50 combo map is easy. Flashlighting a 1000 combo map is very difficult.

In fact, maps with high max combos feel underweighted in general. I don't know by how much or what exactly should be done about that, but long maps that are difficult throughout could use some love imo.

Overall, I really like pp right now. I feel like it for the most part rewards good plays - exactly what a ranking system should do. It makes it feel worthwhile to sometimes play specifically for ranks, which always felt worthless with ppv1.

Something that happened earlier seemed very wrong to me. I had the following plays in order:


Seemed really strange to me, especially considering what osu!tp has to say about the relative values of aim, speed, and accuracy in that map. Is combo weighted considerably lower in pp than in tp or is there some other factor pp takes into account that I'm not considering? Or did my pp for it not calculate immediately (as of 2 hours later, it still hadn't changed, so that makes this a bit less likely)? It would be convenient if there could be some sort of indicator on the score screen that tells you if your pp for the play has been computed and added to your total (or, better yet, as has been suggested, something that tells you exactly how much raw pp your play was worth).

GhostFrog wrote:

Something that happened earlier seemed very wrong to me. I had the following plays in order:

Play #1 (worth 2pp)

Play #2 (worth 3 additional pp)

Play #3 (worth no additional pp)

I actually got penalized for having 1% lower accuracy yet a much higher combo. I also agree that combo is not weighted enough and it seems accuracy is still heavily weighted.

I like how combo isn't weighted so hard! I really suck at FC for some reason and always miss one note at the end. (Yay for A rank best performances!) I still find it shocking how many players have [Blackhole - Lagomorphic] on their top ranks, it really isn't that hard....

Overall I really like the system. It really motivates you to play harder songs, even though some beatmaps are weighted properly. To be honest, I really don't think I deserve to be at my rank (Currently 3,131pp #3106). Most of my top ranks aren't even that difficult. Like my 3rd best pp was A rank on Krewella - Come & Get it [Insane no-mod]... Wut?

HoboEater wrote:

I still find it shocking how many players have [Blackhole - Lagomorphic] on their top ranks, it really isn't that hard....

Everyone considers different things hard. I personally find [Blackhole - Lagomorphic] extremely hard and needed like 100 tries to fc it once. On the other hand I have scores in my top performances list that I don't consider to be hard at all.

HoboEater wrote:

To be honest, I really don't think I deserve to be at my rank (Currently 3,131pp #3106)

This just means that you are capable of doing scores that others can't, so your rank is well deserved.

GhostFrog wrote:

SPOILER

Personally, I think HD is the biggest "issue" right now. HD does deserve a bonus, but it doesn't belong in aim and it doesn't belong in accuracy (it also doesn't belong in speed, but it doesn't give a bonus to speed right now). The accuracy bonus in particular seems silly to me - HD gives a 2% (or something like that) bonus to accuracy under the assumption that people will mess up at reading a map when playing with it. Apparently playing with HD means we're supposed to be playing maps we can't read well and playing nomod means we're supposed to be playing maps we can read perfectly. I don't get it. The 18% bonus to aim...well, that's just really misplaced and inflated and it's even more egregious on slider-heavy maps. If and when pp incorporates pattern/reading difficulty, all of that should be solvable by just throwing the HD bonus into that instead. That could also help with flashlight - flashlight is crazy hard, but the primary difficulty with it has nothing to do with aim, speed, or accuracy.

Speaking of flashlight, its bonus should probably scale with the player's max combo instead of being a flat 36%. Flashlighting a 50 combo map is easy. Flashlighting a 1000 combo map is very difficult.

In fact, maps with high max combos feel underweighted in general. I don't know by how much or what exactly should be done about that, but long maps that are difficult throughout could use some love imo.

Very good point and probably the biggest issue with pp right now!

HoboEater wrote:

I still find it shocking how many players have [Blackhole - Lagomorphic] on their top ranks, it really isn't that hard....

I've noticed very frequently appearing songs on the best performances of people that are a similar rank to me. I've seen that song around a little bit, it's probably more common among higher ranks.
Examples:
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/161611?m=0
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/290581?m=0
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/211697?m=0
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/114446?m=0
and yes they are all in mine because muh pp's

Some songs are just worth lots for their difficulty. The ratio of people who have nomod insanes in their best performance compared to DT/HD is also very high (for rank 5k-8k).

have often the same problem. Im a low acc player.
a small example
Sometimes i play a map with 90% acc (2mio points)
next try then 82% acc (2,5mio poiints ) = the reason -10pp

i hate this..

zitekyo wrote:

have often the same problem. Im a low acc player.
a small example
Sometimes i play a map with 90% acc (2mio points)
next try then 82% acc (2,5mio poiints ) = the reason -10pp

i hate this..

The simple solution to this problem: get better accuracy. Accuracy is probably the easiest aspect of this game to improve in...

i know that acc is important , but i love to play harder maps , on this maps i dont get "s" "ss" or high acc.
in my opinion,
Jumps/fast singletaps.. all is much easier then hit a circle on the right moment =D
now i play slowerer maps .I focus only on acc/fc ,i hope this training will work =)

zitekyo wrote:

i know that acc is important , but i love to play harder maps , on this maps i dont get "s" "ss" or high acc.
in my opinion,
Jumps/fast singletaps.. all is much easier then hit a circle on the right moment =D
now i play slowerer maps .I focus only on acc/fc ,i hope this training will work =)

I wouldn't focus on accuracy too much. Instead, focus on being comfortable with harder songs. If you can play difficult songs with a calm attitude, you will notice accuracy comes naturally. Also, you will improve much faster compared to practicing slow songs. For some reason, I actually get much lower accuracy on easier songs because of my play style.

Ziggo wrote:

This just means that you are capable of doing scores that others can't, so your rank is well deserved.

I would disagree since most of my top performances are swiped from players close to my rank. In other words, I just took all the easy maps worth high amounts of performance with high accuracy, which isn't what most players would do.

As Rewben2 suggests, similar songs appear in best performances due to their high performance to difficulty ratio. Therefore its much easier to gain ranks if you know which songs to play.

This system is probably more accurate, and i dont think there's any arguing that. BUt the problem is that it isnt rewarding AT ALL. Full Combo'ing things isnt particularly rewarding if i dont like the song, which seem to be the only ones worth anything. Streams are also worth next to no pp, even for giant combos or full combos. Double time is vastly over-weighted, and top 50'ing hards, much harder to do than full combo'ing insanes with no mod, are worth nothing. The system doesnt make me want to play, it makes me grind rather than enjoy myself while improving rank.

StratoPulse wrote:

This system is probably more accurate, and i dont think there's any arguing that. BUt the problem is that it isnt rewarding AT ALL. Full Combo'ing things isnt particularly rewarding if i dont like the song, which seem to be the only ones worth anything. Streams are also worth next to no pp, even for giant combos or full combos. Double time is vastly over-weighted, and top 50'ing hards, much harder to do than full combo'ing insanes with no mod, are worth nothing. The system doesnt make me want to play, it makes me grind rather than enjoy myself while improving rank.

Wtf? The whole point of the system is to be less reliant on scoring top 50. People could grind normal songs with FL and get in to 10k rank on the old System . Streams are worth huge amounts of pp in the new system .

StratoPulse wrote:

This system is probably more accurate, and i dont think there's any arguing that. BUt the problem is that it isnt rewarding AT ALL. Full Combo'ing things isnt particularly rewarding if i dont like the song, which seem to be the only ones worth anything. Streams are also worth next to no pp, even for giant combos or full combos. Double time is vastly over-weighted, and top 50'ing hards, much harder to do than full combo'ing insanes with no mod, are worth nothing. The system doesnt make me want to play, it makes me grind rather than enjoy myself while improving rank.

Streams seem to only become relevant in calculations on a higher level of play (arguably over rated at this level too). Also top 50ing hards means you're probably doing high accuracy scores which is harder to do. If low accuracy scores gave high pp on average tier insane full combos a lot of players would farm the system insanely easily.

StratoPulse wrote:

This system is probably more accurate, and i dont think there's any arguing that. BUt the problem is that it isnt rewarding AT ALL. Full Combo'ing things isnt particularly rewarding if i dont like the song, which seem to be the only ones worth anything. Streams are also worth next to no pp, even for giant combos or full combos. Double time is vastly over-weighted, and top 50'ing hards, much harder to do than full combo'ing insanes with no mod, are worth nothing. The system doesnt make me want to play, it makes me grind rather than enjoy myself while improving rank.

You only feel this way because you're caring too much about what other people do. Checking the people around my rank, I find most of them play DT, but I probably have a grand total of... 1 map that has a DT high score? Don't let what others do affect you. Find maps with higher difficulty and do them with good accuracy, you're not getting any less pp than they are unless they DT the maps you're doing, you can just get them through other aspects like aim and accuracy.

Also, from my understanding, DT is actually not overweighted because it's calculated the exact same way a map made at 1.5x of its speed would be (someone confirm or correct?). It does, however, ruin songs .

Streams are worth PP if it's actually streamy and has high bpm. Having a few 7-note or 15-note streams in a beatmap is pretty much expected nowadays, so you can't really give pp for a few of those. Low bpm streams aren't be worth anything. Just look at the "speed" value on osutp, streamy maps at high bpm like mytho, unlimitation, calamity fortune, etc. have a very high speed value.

nooblet wrote:

StratoPulse wrote:

This system is probably more accurate, and i dont think there's any arguing that. BUt the problem is that it isnt rewarding AT ALL. Full Combo'ing things isnt particularly rewarding if i dont like the song, which seem to be the only ones worth anything. Streams are also worth next to no pp, even for giant combos or full combos. Double time is vastly over-weighted, and top 50'ing hards, much harder to do than full combo'ing insanes with no mod, are worth nothing. The system doesnt make me want to play, it makes me grind rather than enjoy myself while improving rank.

You only feel this way because you're caring too much about what other people do. Checking the people around my rank, I find most of them play DT, but I probably have a grand total of... 1 map that has a DT high score? Don't let what others do affect you. Find maps with higher difficulty and do them with good accuracy, you're not getting any less pp than they are unless they DT the maps you're doing, you can just get them through other aspects like aim and accuracy.

Also, from my understanding, DT is actually not overweighted because it's calculated the exact same way a map made at 1.5x of its speed would be (someone confirm or correct?). It does, however, ruin songs .

Streams are worth PP if it's actually streamy and has high bpm. Having a few 7-note or 15-note streams in a beatmap is pretty much expected nowadays, so you can't really give pp for a few of those. Low bpm streams aren't be worth anything. Just look at the "speed" value on osutp, streamy maps at high bpm like mytho, unlimitation, calamity fortune, etc. have a very high speed value.

From my experience, DT can be slightly overweighted since some maps are shorter with easier patterns compared to harder maps, but they should be calculated the same way (Tom?).

My example of DT and streams being overweighted is insane DT on http://osu.ppy.sh/b/105265?m=0

nooblet wrote:

StratoPulse wrote:

[...]
Also, from my understanding, DT is actually not overweighted because it's calculated the exact same way a map made at 1.5x of its speed would be (someone confirm or correct?). [...]

I confirm. Same goes for HalfTime, HardRock and Easy.
The only mods giving some arbitrary bonus are Hidden and FlashLight.

Also, FlashLight is giving a 50% aim bonus since the last update (you can find it in the changelog somewhere, it's been a week or two), not a 36% one anymore. I do also agree with making FlashLight scale with MaxCombo, it does make a lot of sense. You can expect that to be the case in the near future.

Speaking of max combo, i have an issue about the weighing of certain plays corresponding to their combos.

For example: http://osutp.net/scores?bid=142954 (using tp scores to give a rough idea)
In a map like Senketsu no Chikai where there are jumps throughout the song, i can't help but feel misses should be more penalized than combo.
In the scores: 1.1k combo w/ 5 miss and 98% acc is weighted higher than 700combo w/ 1 miss and 99% acc
in my opinion missing once near the middle with almost perfect acc is a far better play than managing to combo most of the map with worse acc and far more misses.

The above is just my personal evaluation but i would like you hear your opinion on this matter Tom, thanks~

usually misses on maps like that when you're actually able to get a low miss count overall mean a loss of concentration and not a lack of aim skill, the person who had 1 miss was just more lucky to get less penalized for his momentary loss of concentration compared to the person who had 5 miss all at once. The second person was able to stay concentrated for longer overall, and apply a decent aim consistency, so that's why his score earns more in the end.

just a question, I have lost 10 pp, why ??

hugola22 wrote:

just a question, I have lost 10 pp, why ??

Maybe better Score in a Map but worse Accuary

One of the most reasons why ppl lose pp

---------------

yes but 10 is so much !

Ultrayano wrote:

Dat Cheater

They need to really update osutp.net
A bunch of deleted/hidden scores from obvious cheaters still have not been removed.

they don't get removed until the user gets banned
You can actually find a LOT of hidden scores on certain maps, because apparently it's really hard to tell if a big black DT score is legit or not.

I still feel that osu! now has a pretty confusing scoring system. I mean, in a rhythm game what's the aim? Usually to get the highest score right? Well quite often now we get PENALIZED for getting better scores ie because of lower accuracy etc.

Now aside from the fact that that is extremely unintuitive for users (see: this thread "why did i lose x pp"), the real problem is the fact that scores are sorted not by their worth, but by their score, WHICH ACCORDING TO THE RANKED SYSTEM IS NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.

I really feel that scores should be sorted by either their pp worth, or that we should be able to choose which score on a song to submit, or that we have the ability to delete a score. There are lots of options there that all solve this problem, I'm just wondering if Tom/peppy also consider this to be a problem or aren't fazed by it.

Dalvoid wrote:

I still feel that osu! now has a pretty confusing scoring system. I mean, in a rhythm game what's the aim? Usually to get the highest score right? Well quite often now we get PENALIZED for getting better scores ie because of lower accuracy etc.

Now aside from the fact that that is extremely unintuitive for users (see: this thread "why did i lose x pp"), the real problem is the fact that scores are sorted not by their worth, but by their score, WHICH ACCORDING TO THE RANKED SYSTEM IS NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.

I really feel that scores should be sorted by either their pp worth, or that we should be able to choose which score on a song to submit, or that we have the ability to delete a score. There are lots of options there that all solve this problem, I'm just wondering if Tom/peppy also consider this to be a problem or aren't fazed by it.

Just wait a little bit more Tom is still working on the System but first he want implement the System also in all the other Modes

The aim isn't to get score, otherwise, uan/andrea/geckogates best players in world.

[AirCoN] wrote:

The aim isn't to get score, otherwise, uan/andrea/geckogates best players in world.

Yeah so true

If ppl want a Score Ranking <-

Ok, I kinda knew this would happen with all the forum knights skimming posts, BUT YOU ARE COMPLETELY MISSING MY POINT.

The point is that best score =/= best play, AS YOU SAID. However osu! is submitting scores as if best score = best play. The problem is that the goal of the game has become convoluted, and now we can become 'stuck' with a "high score" which is actually negatively impacting our ranking.

tl;dr if you feel like trying again: the problem is the submission system and I am not making the ridiculous assertion that score should be the defining factor of osu!'s ranked play.

Dalvoid wrote:

Ok, I kinda knew this would happen with all the forum knights skimming posts, BUT YOU ARE COMPLETELY MISSING MY POINT.

The point is that best score =/= best play, AS YOU SAID. However osu! is submitting scores as if best score = best play. The problem is that the goal of the game has become convoluted, and now we can become 'stuck' with a "high score" which is actually negatively impacting our ranking.

tl;dr if you feel like trying again: the problem is the submission system and I am not making the ridiculous assertion that score should be the defining factor of osu!'s ranked play.

If you actually paid any attention to this topic, Tom has stated MULTIPLE times that it is not possible to sort plays by their performance. Sorting by score is the only possible way for now, and there is no information on when, if at all, it is gonna change.

just FC maps or don't expect to get anything from plays where you didn't FC. simple.

One of my friends (mike6649) dosen't get any pp at all. He passed Mad Machine and Sonata and he didn't get any pp.
I'm not very sure what's happening, as those are the highest tier maps in this game, and there's no reward for beating them!?
He's only at #32,482, and people at that rank usually fail miserably at these top tier maps.
I think that about people in #10000 or above are the only people able to pass those maps, as in MP, I've seen some #10000 that can't pass mad machine.
I think there must be something wrong with this system if you don't get pp from high tier plays, so I think I need a bit of explanation

dennischan wrote:

One of my friends (mike6649) dosen't get any pp at all. He passed Mad Machine and Sonata and he didn't get any pp.
I'm not very sure what's happening, as those are the highest tier maps in this game, and there's no reward for beating them!?
He's only at #32,482, and people at that rank usually fail miserably at these top tier maps.
I think that about people in #10000 or above are the only people able to pass those maps, as in MP, I've seen some #10000 that can't pass mad machine.
I think there must be something wrong with this system if you don't get pp from high tier plays, so I think I need a bit of explanation

screenies

the system cares more about what maps(+mod/s) you can play well than what you can just mash and pass like that

You don't even need accuracy for mad machine, you just need speed. I wouldn't call it a "highest tier" map since the only difficult part about it is that it has 270 BPM 1/4 streams, but they are not very long (not bad for stamina) and have multiple hold-sliders in between them. It's OD7, which is lenient for 270 BPM, you could be out of time (slower), even double-tapping, and still get 300's.

Afaik Tom's algorithm uses strain values, so the number of hold sliders in between these streams reduces that value and there are many slow parts too, which inflates your accuracy for a 270 BPM map, mainly due to half the map being sliders, giving you most of your combo. Sliders are ignored for accuracy calculation, so you would need a high accuracy score to get any pp. Combo matters due to these fast repeating sliders and the combo in the screenies is too low.

dennischan wrote:

One of my friends (mike6649) dosen't get any pp at all. He passed Mad Machine and Sonata and he didn't get any pp.
I'm not very sure what's happening, as those are the highest tier maps in this game, and there's no reward for beating them!?
He's only at #32,482, and people at that rank usually fail miserably at these top tier maps.
I think that about people in #10000 or above are the only people able to pass those maps, as in MP, I've seen some #10000 that can't pass mad machine.
I think there must be something wrong with this system if you don't get pp from high tier plays, so I think I need a bit of explanation

screenies

PP rewards you for good performances, passing =/= a good performance. You'll get PP from getting 99% on an easier map/diff. You can tell from the tp site that accuracy is pretty much nill once you hit 90%. Low accuracy and lack of combo also means no points in accuracy and aim.

I do find it rather odd that I get pp in other modes even though I get LESS THAN 90% accuracy. I think you are on to something about the lack of combo, as I do OK with combo but I tend to drop it quite easily as I don't play often enough to build my stamina up on both hands. I think the pp system is fine, as you do get some for improving your score on a map that you have already played I do, however, find it rather odd that only the highest difficulty counts on a beatmap if you have played multiple diffs.

VIDgamefrk9 wrote:

I do find it rather odd that I get pp in other modes even though I get LESS THAN 90% accuracy.

The pp system for special modes is not yet functional, please just ignore pp in those modes until it's implemented (soon-ish hopefully).

I just played on new ranked map by chance got rank 34 even if i didn't FC it and i lost 50 pp why would i lose pp i get if map has low plays even if you get high rank you dont get alot pp but losing it those 50 pp were hard to get since iam improving now so i rank up slowly

Most likely some changes (or issues?) with calculation, 100 pp disappeared in thin air.

everyone will lose pp dont be afraid..

after a overall rank update, youi get probablyy your old rank.

pp just got switched to use calculations of the soon-to-come star rating system. Small changes in pp are to be expected.

Just lost 136pp LULZ

Tom94 wrote:

pp just got switched to use calculations of the soon-to-come star rating system. Small changes in pp are to be expected.

Saw it xD
I was shocked
Lost 16pp after better Score and better Accuary
But wayne I'm to bad to say i don't deserve this rank

Oh man, how annoying. The amount of pp i lost was exactly the amount of pp i gained by getting 2 good scores. For a moment i was afraid they'd be deleted because of something ridiculous like hacking or something.

Is it possible to make a notice about a change in calculations? Because of this i went from near #1200 to near #1300, which is quite a change for me. Especially if someone happens to be trying to get some great scores, communication will be appreciates, i feel. Or is too much hassle compared to the amount of changes made or magnitude of changes?

lose 20pp TAT

Other people will lose pp, too, so you won't lose many ranks in the long run. You might even gain some.

Tom94 wrote:

Other people will lose pp, too, so you won't lose many ranks in the long run. You might even gain some.

Think im not coming back from this one, i mean, 136pp FUCK MY LIFE

Tom94 wrote:

Other people will lose pp, too, so you won't lose many ranks in the long run. You might even gain some.

Will the Rank only update if the User rank a Map ? Or will it update in the next 48H

Ultrayano wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

Other people will lose pp, too, so you won't lose many ranks in the long run. You might even gain some.

Will the Rank only update if the User rank a Map ? Or will it update in the next 48H

Next few hours. Your best performance list will take a few days, though.

Camnel wrote:

Think im not coming back from this one, i mean, 136pp FUCK MY LIFE

But the number of pp doesn't matter, because it's only a number
What matters is your rank, once recalculations are done you can compare your previous rank with your new one and see if you have lost anything or not

Thanks, Tom, for the clarification.

There really should be something telling people to ignore the raw pp amount when there are changes to the system (or at least make it display secondary on profiles) so that people don't focus on it so much.

@Tom94: Just curious, how will the new star system work? Will it have an open ceiling, or will it still just be limited to 5 stars?

Is combo/score a big factor in ppv2 if any at all?

Kexxon wrote:

Is combo/score a big factor in ppv2 if any at all?

combo does

NERF THE STREAMS! 'nough said

What's wrong with streams?

[El_Cake] wrote:

NERF THE STREAMS! 'nough said

Ok I would say I agree since I suck at streams but streams are rather critical for determining speed and accuracy/consistency.

On a side note, I lost pp but gained ranks XD, HD is now worth playing again.

i give up on ranking its like i gained pp like up 599 yesterday then today after 1 game i drop to 74k and 583 pp again wtf ig ive up on ranking just sigh...

Kreto wrote:

i give up on ranking its like i gained pp like up 599 yesterday then today after 1 game i drop to 74k and 583 pp again wtf ig ive up on ranking just sigh...

pp got recalculated
believe it or not, there are people better than you

[quote="Kreto"]i give up on ranking its like i gained pp like up 599 yesterday then today after 1 game i drop to 74k and 583 pp again wtf ig ive up on ranking just sigh... the next day

buny wrote:

Kreto wrote:

i give up on ranking its like i gained pp like up 599 yesterday then today after 1 game i drop to 74k and 583 pp again wtf ig ive up on ranking just sigh...

pp got recalculated
believe it or not, there are people better than you

i know there is people better than me buny but i got 599 pp yesterday like 9:30 and now at like 1:00pm it drops so thats recalculating huh like i raise it and i drop after a day it just doesnt seem fun anymore to rank so yeah. Thanks for the reply

Thats not a tragedy, you can get your ranks back.
Passing mad machine and getting nothing IS a tragedy.
passing mad machine is just so stupidly hard its much harder than a random FC on insanes which are actually not so hard.
I dont understand why we get no pp from top tier maps while farming insanes give tons of pp

dennischan wrote:

Thats not a tragedy, you can get your ranks back.
Passing mad machine and getting nothing IS a tragedy.
passing mad machine is just so stupidly hard its much harder than a random FC on insanes which are actually not so hard.
I dont understand why we get no pp from top tier maps while farming insanes give tons of pp

Because just "passing" top tier maps is difficult to reliably evaluate performance..

HoboEater wrote:

dennischan wrote:

Thats not a tragedy, you can get your ranks back.
Passing mad machine and getting nothing IS a tragedy.
passing mad machine is just so stupidly hard its much harder than a random FC on insanes which are actually not so hard.
I dont understand why we get no pp from top tier maps while farming insanes give tons of pp

Because just "passing" top tier maps is difficult to reliably evaluate performance..

On top of that mashing can let you pass those maps. Also, all those misses and combo breaks mean that not much aim was involved.

I didn't read all of the 46 pages because I'm lazy so maybe someone already asked this, if there will be a way to look at your own accuracy\speed\aim level like Osu!tp shows, expaple: http://puu.sh/7ezSR.png.

dennischan wrote:

Thats not a tragedy, you can get your ranks back.
Passing mad machine and getting nothing IS a tragedy.
passing mad machine is just so stupidly hard its much harder than a random FC on insanes which are actually not so hard.
I dont understand why we get no pp from top tier maps while farming insanes give tons of pp

pp are called "performance points". They are rating your performance, not your skill. Those 2 things are very similar but not exactly the same. Let's look at a piano player for instance. Would you rate a perfect interpretation of an easier piece lower than a horrible play through some ridiculously hard piece? I wouldn't.

The first requirement for getting pp is delivering a decent performance. Map difficulty is also factored in and can make up for worse performances up to a certain degree, but barely passing won't get you anywhere. As a guideline, you should try to get below 10 misses and above 90% accuracy if you want your play to be rated well. A higher combo also does help. Of course if the map indeed is ridiculously hard, then you can get away even with a low accuracy, as long as you keep your misses low and your combo high. You can see the C in jesus1412's best performances for instance.

-MrPotato- wrote:

I didn't read all of the 46 pages because I'm lazy so maybe someone already asked this, if there will be a way to look at your own accuracy\speed\aim level like Osu!tp shows, expaple: http://puu.sh/7ezSR.png.

There might be such a display at some point.

Does accuracy have any influence on pp? Or is it just your score and the weight of said score depending on the map/mod combo?

Is it possible to get docked 100pp every 3 weeks or so? Because that's happening right now to me.

I was 1,114pp just before the ppv2 performance charts became available, and after that i dropped to 1000pp, which i noticed while playing.

After gaining 100 back over a few weeks since then, my pp just now dropped by 100. AGAIN.

I can understand the fact that pp is constantly being recalculated, but I believe 100pp disappearing every single time it does so is simply absurd.

Can someone explain what factors contribute to a decrease in pp?

I think that this is a serious bug, so if its convenient, can you please recheck mike's scores for him
like you did for the guys here? t/181850/start=165
Thanks Tom in advance, and sorry for bothering you.

mike6649 wrote:

I can understand the fact that pp is constantly being recalculated, but I believe 100pp disappearing every single time it does so is simply absurd.

Can someone explain what factors contribute to a decrease in pp?

Everytime you lost pp, the algorithm that calculates pp has changed. You haven't lost any pp, according to the new algorithm you just have the pp you have.

Are you an FL or HD player? Do you have any scores that excel in one category in particular (e.g., a SS in 7000 circles OD11 map for accuracy, FC a 360bpm 7000 circles stream map for speed , FC a 360bpm 7000 circles full screen squares AR11 map for aim)? If you're not, you "lost" pp because the recent adjustments were to give a fairer pp value to such plays. For more info on how exactly it happened, read the thread.

Tom94 wrote:

dennischan wrote:

Thats not a tragedy, you can get your ranks back.
Passing mad machine and getting nothing IS a tragedy.
passing mad machine is just so stupidly hard its much harder than a random FC on insanes which are actually not so hard.
I dont understand why we get no pp from top tier maps while farming insanes give tons of pp

pp are called "performance points". They are rating your performance, not your skill. Those 2 things are very similar but not exactly the same. Let's look at a piano player for instance. Would you rate a perfect interpretation of an easier piece lower than a horrible play through some ridiculously hard piece? I wouldn't.

The first requirement for getting pp is delivering a decent performance. Map difficulty is also factored in and can make up for worse performances up to a certain degree, but barely passing won't get you anywhere. As a guideline, you should try to get below 10 misses and above 90% accuracy if you want your play to be rated well. A higher combo also does help. Of course if the map indeed is ridiculously hard, then you can get away even with a low accuracy, as long as you keep your misses low and your combo high. You can see the C in jesus1412's best performances for instance.

-MrPotato- wrote:

I didn't read all of the 46 pages because I'm lazy so maybe someone already asked this, if there will be a way to look at your own accuracy\speed\aim level like Osu!tp shows, expaple: http://puu.sh/7ezSR.png.

There might be such a display at some point.

How about this X person is playing insane maps and he fc them but whit lower acc like around 94% acc lets say then Y person is doing hard and normals and even easy whit alot of mods gets a good acc around 98% and getting high ranks and they are at same rank. Shouldn't the Y person be lower rank since it takes much less skill than doing insanes?

Symqn wrote:

How about this X person is playing insane maps and he fc them but whit lower acc like around 94% acc lets say then Y person is doing hard and normals and even easy whit alot of mods gets a good acc around 98% and getting high ranks and they are at same rank. Shouldn't the Y person be lower rank since it takes much less skill than doing insanes?

That really depends on the maps. Some hard maps become harder than insanes with the right mods.

Any plan to put "Level" difficulty beside the map? easy to know which map is harder etc. Put ingame i mean because lazy to go to osutp website xD

I need someone to explain to me something about ppv2.

Why does This (#44), awards me no pp, and even makes my accuracy drop by 0.02%, while This makes me gain something like 1-2 pp, and doesn't make my accuracy drop.

I really don't understand.

Is there something wrong with me, or ? ...

And is it me or DT is totally overrated now ? Because i did some random DT scores, even with poor accuracy, and i gained a lot of pp, maybe like 10-15 by rank, when they were really bad.

Desu_p wrote:

Any plan to put "Level" difficulty beside the map? easy to know which map is harder etc. Put ingame i mean because lazy to go to osutp website xD

Yes there is

Soinou wrote:

I need someone to explain to me something about ppv2.

Why does This (#44), awards me no pp, and even makes my accuracy drop by 0.02%, while This makes me gain something like 1-2 pp, and doesn't make my accuracy drop.

I really don't understand.

Is there something wrong with me, or ? ...

And is it me or DT is totally overrated now ? Because i did some random DT scores, even with poor accuracy, and i gained a lot of pp, maybe like 10-15 by rank, when they were really bad.

Happens to me too. From my understanding, the performance evaluation may have been delayed. i.e, you played that first map, and before the PP was given to you after you played the second map, making it seem like the second map was the one that gave you the pp. The second didn't affect your accuracy because it was probably not a good enough performance to be put into consideration.

As for DT, maybe you're good at DT but some people (ME ) suck at DT. What's easy for you may not be easy for others. DT calculation is the exact same as nomod mapped at 1.5*speed. You can see that on the previous page, actually. It'd be a good idea to skim a few pages first, most questions have already been asked many times.

Soinou wrote:

I need someone to explain to me something about ppv2.

Why does This (#44), awards me no pp, and even makes my accuracy drop by 0.02%, while This makes me gain something like 1-2 pp, and doesn't make my accuracy drop.

I really don't understand.

Is there something wrong with me, or ? ...

And is it me or DT is totally overrated now ? Because i did some random DT scores, even with poor accuracy, and i gained a lot of pp, maybe like 10-15 by rank, when they were really bad.

The second song, according to osu!tp calculator, is 17 levels higher. You performed reasonably well for it, so I guess it awarded you more pp.

s: http://osutp.net/beatmaps

idk how these two made it into WWW/my best performance list but i'm pretty sure they shoudn't be there, especially to be rated as my two best.

JappyBabes wrote:

idk how these two made it into WWW/my best performance list but i'm pretty sure they shoudn't be there, especially to be rated as my two best.

This remind me, I have a similar question about the rating of performances.
Assuming TP accuracy is based on accuracy%+miss+combo, I'll say beforehand these are all S+FC's.
Why is it that Lv70 (52|77) 99.27% > Lv67 (55|72) 99.43% > Lv76 (47|87) 99.74% o_o... Confuses the heck outta me.

JappyBabes wrote:

idk how these two made it into WWW/my best performance list but i'm pretty sure they shoudn't be there, especially to be rated as my two best.

There seems to be a bug in the difficulty calculations of those maps. I'll look into it. Suspecting it has to do with the fast repeat sliders.

DT-sama wrote:

mike6649 wrote:

I can understand the fact that pp is constantly being recalculated, but I believe 100pp disappearing every single time it does so is simply absurd.

Can someone explain what factors contribute to a decrease in pp?

Everytime you lost pp, the algorithm that calculates pp has changed. You haven't lost any pp, according to the new algorithm you just have the pp you have.

Are you an FL or HD player? Do you have any scores that excel in one category in particular (e.g., a SS in 7000 circles OD11 map for accuracy, FC a 360bpm 7000 circles stream map for speed , FC a 360bpm 7000 circles full screen squares AR11 map for aim)? If you're not, you "lost" pp because the recent adjustments were to give a fairer pp value to such plays. For more info on how exactly it happened, read the thread.

My best plays so far are mostly without mods (except for 1 which is DT), and i believe they in fact do specialise in one category (mostly aim or speed). I checked and the 'drops' in pp were on Feb 9th and March 1st respectively, yet the Feb 9th changelog didn't mention 'nerfing' anything in particular, which is even more confusing. Unless there are some changes that were not logged.

Overall, the ppv2 system is pretty good, but there are some maps which seem to be much harder than it says on the tp database, like:
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/19990 and
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/270980.
Does the ppv2 database treat these maps as about the same difficulty as the tp maps (easier than it actually is), and if so, is there a way to fix it?

Clarification:
The first one has lots of jumps, but low slider speed which makes it very hard to aim.
The second one basically spams tons of notes.

These two are both harder than they are ranked, and I think that there may be others like this.

Tom94 wrote:

JappyBabes wrote:

idk how these two made it into WWW/my best performance list but i'm pretty sure they shoudn't be there, especially to be rated as my two best.

There seems to be a bug in the difficulty calculations of those maps. I'll look into it. Suspecting it has to do with the fast repeat sliders.

The bug has been fixed. It'll propagate to your pp tomorrow.

mike6649 wrote:

My best plays so far are mostly without mods (except for 1 which is DT), and i believe they in fact do specialise in one category (mostly aim or speed). I checked and the 'drops' in pp were on Feb 9th and March 1st respectively, yet the Feb 9th changelog didn't mention 'nerfing' anything in particular, which is even more confusing. Unless there are some changes that were not logged.

https://osu.ppy.sh/p/changelog?category=performance
I am seeing things on Feb 9th there.

Feb 9, 2014
Performance: [Tom94] Increase the aim bonus of FlashLight slightly.
Performance: [Tom94] Increase pp-value of scores which excel in one category.

Can you elaborate on how this patch cause such a tremendous deduction in pp? I'm seeing what you are seeing.

Did you lose pp or you lost rank? Not the same thing.

Wishy wrote:

Did you lose pp or you lost rank? Not the same thing.

Both. I lost pp, therefore I lost rank. And its not just a minor drop of pp, it was up to 10% of my total pp (1100 -> 1000)

mike6649 wrote:

Wishy wrote:

Did you lose pp or you lost rank? Not the same thing.

Both. I lost pp, therefore I lost rank. And its not just a minor drop of pp, it was up to 10% of my total pp (1100 -> 1000)

I can't just make everyone's pp increase. I need to scale things down so the average of everyone stays the same. That means that you didn't profit much from the change and thus lost pp in the process of scaling everyone down. You probably have many scores which are about equal in each category and don't excel in one particular category.

Thanks for clearing that up, I was pretty pissed when I saw my pp was gone twice lol

Hi, I looked around for a little bit and I couldn't find answers.

So there is one map that while it was qualified, I played it and scored a 98% accuracy on it. And judging by the tp level on osutp (first one) it should've landed somewhere in my top scores. However, it was not calculated because it was qualified then. Now it is ranked but I did not get any points.
Do I have to beat that score for it to recalculate? I've already tried forcing a recalculation by beating other maps but to no avail.

qualified maps do give pp, if it didnt get into your top performance it means you didnt get enough pp from it.

silmarilen wrote:

qualified maps do give pp, if it didnt get into your top performance it means you didnt get enough pp from it.

That's odd, back when I scored it, I had lvl 30's in my top 10 and nothing changed. It was an FC too...

all the maps currently in your top performance are higher tp lvl than this map, if you add the relatively low acc to that it makes sense that it isnt in your top performance.

tastystew wrote:

The second song, according to osu!tp calculator, is 17 levels higher. You performed reasonably well for it, so I guess it awarded you more pp.

uh ...

91%, B, alot of misses ...

Not sure if i can consider it "reasonably well".

But aniway, thanks for all your answers .

silmarilen wrote:

all the maps currently in your top performance are higher tp lvl than this map, if you add the relatively low acc to that it makes sense that it isnt in your top performance.

Hmm, my lowest one was a lvl 43 but with 93% accuracy but, the rest are about 95-97%. Would a longer combo (1110) but the lower accuracy and 2 more tp be worth more then the shorter combo (457), 98% and two 2tp lower?

I still don't see how http://osu.ppy.sh/b/146372 is such a high level, in comparison to chipscape and dt eiji kuinbii.

And then something like dt http://osu.ppy.sh/b/295824 is much lower than midnight siege, even though it's a lot harder

These are a few things that have bothered me too the point where i really want to make a post about it....mainly complaining about it, so i can atleast get some sense out of it. I dont really want to be told why this happens for i know how the system is working right now i want to know why it is the way it is for this is clearly flawed.

This is just today, but it happens on a regular basis, i played this beatmap for example, got a decent combo stacked up and a decent score yet i had 87% accuracy, and the accuracy is basically what caused me to lose ranks after playing this. Considering my rank of 15k and the fact i did that well on it, i was very unhappy with being rewarded by losing ranks.
at this point im tired, so i decided to 3 mod a normal beatmap, why not right? Apparently thats a bad idea too, for getting a rank of 282 of 6900 must be bad, i lost even more ranks than for the previous one.
this keeps happening to me, and has been happening to me for weeks and weeks and i kept telling myself that this would be fixed but apparently not for i keep gaining and losing my ranks for no reason at all. IM half scared to post this because its mostly complaining but im too unhappy with all of these that i just need to.