Ephemeral wrote:

A map may be unranked by any BAT if there are elements within the map that are of particular concern from either a subjective or objective standpoint.

Zarerion wrote:

Hi, my humble opinion:
The map is awesome, but like Shiro said, far too inconsistent when it comes to the slowdowns. Please listen to her and take your time to rework your structure a bit.
Also when taking a look at your NCs, please keep in mind how NC spam affects the HP drain of your map. The more dense you put NCs the higher gets the Drain for the overall map, so in order to make this playable HR for not only thelewa, reducing the NC spam a bit will be a huge improvement.

About the AR: 9 is okay, this is 175 BPM and has rather complex patterns, why would anyone enforce AR8 here?

Very fun map whatsoever, please rerank fast.

Garven wrote:

Zarerion misinterpreted how HP Drain and new combos work. Basically when you have a new combo, the last note of the previous combo gives an HP boost. So if you have tons of new combos in a short amount of time, it gives a huge boost to HP, not increases the rate of HP drain. This causes an imbalance of drain and actually makes the map artificially easy unless you have a large span of section that is sparse in rhythm. Using new combos to highlight some new portion of a pattern that would be harder to read otherwise is frowned upon since it's indicative of poor design rather than trying to highlight a certain part of the song (you'll want your new combos to be consistent throughout your own maps like Kiai toggles).

Zarerion wrote:

The more dense you put NCs the higher gets the Drain for the overall map, so in order to make this playable HR for not only thelewa, reducing the NC spam a bit will be a huge improvement.

Shiro wrote:

You can just call your own circle of friends and ask them all to post in this thread insulting BATs, but it will never do anything.

Dark Fang wrote:

btw, I have no idea why this is has been unranked.
Were the thoughts objective? or were they only a few BAT's subjective thought?
i can't find unrankable reason except offset -it's possible use online offset- there are also problems in the unranked post.

the First reason that - "the spacing feels completely erratic", that's true. but why is it unrankable? we should respect the mappers. Broccoly diff has been already ranked once, and the problems are not significantly serious. do the mappers have to map being pressured like this?

the Second reason that - "the map uses AR9 for a song that is described by the mapper themselves as "calm", certainly Broccoly wrote "slow song" on creator's word. but is AR must follow that? it's stereotypes. I can say "AR 9 is proper for this map". it's hard to read? do blame your eye-hand coordination. most players feel AR 9 is fun more than AR 8. and this is not unrankable reason.

the Third reason that - "the map uses highly inconsistent extended sliders some of which are slowed down and with jumps afterwards which makes the map extremely confusing to read and awkward to play", ah. be honest, I don't even know what to say. it's a little bit unplayable to some of the few players, but not unrankable. at least not unplayable for me. Actually, most people enjoyed and were interested in this map

Ephemeral wrote:

Unranking was often considered as a negative event or something shameful or harmful for a map in the past. Starting today, that is no longer the case. A map may be unranked by any BAT if there are elements within the map that are of particular concern from either a subjective or objective standpoint.

What this means in layman's terms is that if there is a problem which requires an unrank to fix and your map has not been ranked for at least a week, it may be unranked temporarily in order to fix the issue. If discussion reveals that there was no issue in the first place for whatever reason, your map will be reranked as it was. This will all be carefully watched to ensure that maps with problems are resolved in a timely fashion, and mappers are not left hanging.

Mashley wrote:

Glad to see BATs finally having the balls to step in and unrank maps that don't meet the standards that we should expect in the Ranked category. I take no issue with having different styles used, but it is simply ludicrous to expect that every style can fit with every song and unfortunately the case with this map is that the mapper has used a style which cannot possibly work with the song in question.

An example I have used when discussing this map in #modhelp is that while fast slider speed changes work for example in TrigonometrY's map of Knife Party - Fire Hive (http://osu.ppy.sh/s/102597) due to the nature of the song, Cry More is a slow paced song with a pretty consistent rhythm and therefore it is illogical to be changing slider speeds so wildly. The Broccoly difficulty is beyond saving, and will honestly require a full remap to be up the standard that I would expect from ranked. On a fundamental level, the map does not fit the song and that is central to how mapping works.

dkun wrote:

What this means in layman's terms is that if there is a problem which requires an unrank to fix and your map has not been ranked for at least a week, it may be unranked temporarily in order to fix the issue. If discussion reveals that there was no issue in the first place for whatever reason, your map will be reranked as it was. This will all be carefully watched to ensure that maps with problems are resolved in a timely fashion, and mappers are not left hanging.

dkun wrote:

Ephemeral wrote:

Unranking was often considered as a negative event or something shameful or harmful for a map in the past. Starting today, that is no longer the case. A map may be unranked by any BAT if there are elements within the map that are of particular concern from either a subjective or objective standpoint.

What this means in layman's terms is that if there is a problem which requires an unrank to fix and your map has not been ranked for at least a week, it may be unranked temporarily in order to fix the issue. If discussion reveals that there was no issue in the first place for whatever reason, your map will be reranked as it was. This will all be carefully watched to ensure that maps with problems are resolved in a timely fashion, and mappers are not left hanging.

Shiro wrote:

First of all, the slow sliders. I like the idea of using 3/4 for some beats. It extends the beat in a nice and fitting way, but the fact that almost every single of the 3/4 used is a slowdown+jump kills this idea and makes it less important, not to mention that it's used inconsistently which makes it feel worse. Here's what I suggest: keep the slowdown+jump on a certain rhythm to emphasize it and keep the other 3/4 at a normal length and spacing. The 3/4 does feel good numerous times, but the fact that everything is emphasized means that nothing gets actually emphasized anymore and that feels awkward. So I suggest to keep the slowdown and jump on some of them, keeping the jumps at the same spacing for consistency and because it gives the map a pattern it follows, which gives it a nice structure, like a spine bone it's attached to. I'm talking about this pattern: 00:24:279 (1,1) - (let's call it the bone pattern) which I think should be used for every single of these rhythms for the reasons I described in this wall of text. The idea that you should basically copypaste the pattern is important because it makes the structure perfect. In the song, the same exact notes come back roughly every 8-9 seconds and I firmly believe that if the map follows that it would feel a lot better. That means all of these:
00:32:501 (1,1) -
00:40:723 (1,2) - turn the second beat into a 1/1 slider like 00:24:279 (1,1) - fixed
00:48:945 (1,1) - the first one should be reversed to be consistent I like the flow now regardless of the consistency; tho I did move 00:49:288 (1) this closer to the white slider
00:57:167 (1,1) -
01:05:389 (3,1) - Turn this one into a slowdown+jump like 00:24:279 (1,1) - this one i didn't use slowdown because there is a drum beat on 01:05:560 - which would sound weird if I used 3/4 slowdown slider
01:13:611 (1,1) -
01:21:833 (1,1) -
01:30:055 (1,2) -
01:38:277 (1,2) -
02:02:943 (1,1) -
02:11:165 (1,1) -
02:19:387 (1,1) -
02:27:609 (3,1) - didn't use slowdown because it would get in the way of the ongoing excited flow
02:35:831 (2,1) - ^same reason
02:44:053 (3,1) - ^
02:48:164 (2,1) - Used a single circle instead, to create the similar effect; same logic with this 01:31:768 (2)

Any other 3/4 should not be slowed down to make sure that these get particular emphasis. Let's see every 3/4 use in the map that I didn't already point out:
00:27:362 (3,1) - this 3/4 is good. The rhythm at this point is similar to the ones you've tried to highlight, but it's not the one you try to highlight, so the fact that this isn't slowed down makes it feels less emphasized than those while still having its own unique feeling. That's good and that's what you should have gone through
00:37:297 (3,4) - This one however doesn't follow anything and feels out of place. The song doesn't go for anything special at this point, so there's no point in emphasizing something that doesn't exist. You should have kept this a 1/2 slider. I wanted to give some rhythmic variation, to make it not boring by keep using the same rhythm. I am aware that there's nothing special going on in the song; I didn't try to emphasize anything. I used white sliders where I wanted to emphasize, but the ordinary(colored) 3/4 sliders like those are used to add flavor to the rhythm, not to emphasize.
00:43:806 (1,1) - If you look at how the song is made, you'll realize that this is exactly the same rhythm as 00:27:362 (3,1) and as such, it should follow the same train of thought. However, you decided to slow down this one which is inconsistent and breaks the slowdown pattern you've been trying to use. A 3/4 here would be awesome and fit, just like 00:27:362 (3,1) - but the slowdown+jump is out of place. Please remove it and use normal spacing, like 00:27:362 (3,1) - Fixed. Makes sense.
00:52:371 (1,2,3) - inconsistent spacing here and that looks absolutely horrible. the problem here is that the use of 3/4 is inconsistent within those three objects. Listen carefully to the song: it has some kind of microbreak right on 00:52:371 (1) - then goes fur sustained, flowy notes for 00:52:714 (2,3) - . Your map goes for sustain, slowly notes for 00:52:371 (1,2) - and a microbreak with 00:53:056 (3) - . What I suggest is to make 00:52:371 (1) - a 1/2 slider and 00:53:056 (3) - a 3/4 slider to follow the song more accurately The pitch that starts on 00:52:371 (1) is sustained until the next pitch 00:52:714 (2) comes in without a break. If I were to use a 1/2 slider for (1) then that doesn't fit to the music; the slider would just stop when the pitch is keep being sustained. Same reason goes for (2); the pitch is being sustained w/o a break until the next pitch (3) comes in. I used 1/2 slider for the slider (3) because I wanted to emphasize that big downbeat on 00:53:399 through utilizing the jump from the end of the slider (3). If I were to use 3/4 for the slider(3), then I'd have to place 00:53:056 (3) - this and 00:53:399 (1) - this closely together, which would be less effective at emphasizing the downbeat on 00:53:399
01:16:694 (1,1) - See 00:27:362 (3,1) - . The song basically restarts at this point - why does your map follow completely different ideas ? Just look back at what you did in the beginning and follow the same logic. I'm not asking to copypaste, and you can make the spacing a bit wider or change the jump configuration because this part is a bit more emphasized in the song, but the logic behind it should stay consistent 01:16:523 (2,3) - replaced white slider with ordinary 3/4 slider like 00:27:362 (3,1) -
01:29:713 (1) - why not. It feels a bit anticlimatic and inconsistent because you never used 3/4 before the pattern I pointed out first, and shifts the focus from it onto this kickslider+slider, which feels quite wrong if you want to follow and consistent pattern and structure. I'd suggest to make this a 1/2 slider, but at least remove the slowdown I think it doesn't feel 'wrong', both from the perspective of fittingness to music and playablility. I am am well aware and admit that I didn't use those patterns before that part, but rather than feeling 'wrong', I intended the players to feel 'fun', 'refreshing', and 'interesting' through that variation; a modder actually liked that pattern a lot and told me that it's creative. I don't want the map to be too much consistent to the point which it doesn't feel fun anymore but boring, mostly by overused-expected rhythm pattern.
01:31:768 (2) - This should be a 3/4 slider. Notice how the song builds a momentum into 01:32:111 (1) - ? You don't translate that momentum because of this lone circle which breaks your flow and doesn't let the map continue and build into the slider. Having a 3/4 slider here would keep the flow going and build the momentum into the bone pattern of the map I see what you mean, but having a lone circle followed by a NCed slider straight below (which elicits the brief stop moment after hitting the circle) works as well in building the momentum. Good suggestion however.
01:37:935 (1) - See 01:29:713 (1) -
02:15:961 (1,1) - You're using the bone pattern at a place where it doesn't fit, and that screws your attempt to build momentum. A slowdown could work here, but only if it's a 1/1 slider, otherwise you're adding the bone pattern at a wrong point and it screws the structure of the map. I honestly suggest using a slowed down 1/1 slider with a circle at 02:16:475 - and then use jumps for 02:16:475 (2,1,2,3,4) - fixed; used 1/1 slowdown slider with a circle after; added jumps
02:17:332 (1,1) - once again you use the bone pattern where it doesn't belong, and right before its righteous place too, which makes the actual bone pattern feel insignifican. The first slider should be 1/2 and not slowed down to make sure that this doesn't happen replaced the slider with two circles
02:29:322 (2) - this slider being reversed is very confusing and plays awfully because you have to rush to its head, then go back to where it ends, and then you jump back to the right into (3) that goes back to the left again. Reversing this one would make the flow 02:28:979 (1,2,3) - a lot better because you'd get a standard flow from (1) to (2) and then an oval flow from (2) to (3) which leads properly into (1) and that's absolutely awesome. Let me draw you pics to show you what I mean because it's important: what you have and what I suggest Yeah.. Of course i know that way the flow will be better, but at the same time that forms a flow which is used in tons of other maps, which I think is boring. I wanted to try something new and playable at the same time, even though it might not flow as well. Numerous testplayers I saw didn't have any problems..

That's it for the 3/4. Now let's have a look at your comboing, which is highly inconsistent as well. If you listen to the song you'll realize that the main theme, repeated through the entire song, fits in two stanzas, which means that the best comboing you could go for would be one new combo every second white tick. The beginning follows this in the first few seconds, then you get lost and starting adding unneeded new combos.
00:03:483 (2) - you could add a new combo on this but it's not needed
00:11:457 (1) - remove
00:16:014 (1) - remove
00:19:432 (1) - remove

Now that we got this pattern in mind, let's have a look at the rest of the map. It should follow the same pattern because the song doesn't change the way it's made, so neither should the map and the comboing. Before you say that you're breaking the comboing of the bone pattern, please follow this until the end - let's do this step by step. first, let's make the entire comboing consistent regardless of the bone pattern:
00:22:224 (1,1) - whatever you choose for this, make sure it's the same as 00:03:103 (1,2) -
00:23:594 (1,1) - remove these
00:25:649 (1) - remove
00:27:705 (1) - remove
00:29:760 (1) - remove
00:31:816 (1,1) - remove
00:33:871 (1) - remove
00:35:927 (1) - remove
00:37:982 (1) - remove
00:40:038 (1,1) - remove
00:41:066 (9) - add a new combo here and remove 00:41:408 (1) -
00:42:093 (1) - remove
00:43:806 (1,1) - remove
00:46:204 (1) - remove
00:48:260 (1) - remove
00:48:945 (1) - remove
00:50:315 (1) - remove
00:52:371 (1) - remove
00:54:426 (1) - remove
00:56:482 (1,1) - remove
00:58:537 (1) - remove
01:00:593 (1) - remove
01:02:648 (1,1) - remove
01:04:704 (1) - remove
01:06:759 (1) - remove
01:08:815 (1) - remove
01:10:870 (1) - remove
01:12:926 (1,1) - remove
01:14:981 (1) - remove
01:16:694 (1,1) - remove
01:19:092 (1) - remove
01:21:148 (1,1) - remove
01:23:203 (1) - remove
01:24:916 (1) - remove
01:27:314 (1) - remove
01:29:370 (1,1) - remove and add a new one on 01:30:398 (2) -
01:31:425 (1,1) - remove
01:33:481 (1) - remove
01:35:536 (1) - remove
01:37:592 (1,1) - remove
01:39:647 (1) - remove
01:41:703 (1) - remove
01:43:416 (1) - remove
02:02:258 (1,1) - remove
02:04:313 (1) - remove
02:06:369 (1) - remove
02:08:424 (1) - remove
02:10:480 (1,1) - remove
02:12:535 (1) - remove
02:14:591 (1) - remove
02:15:961 (1,1,1) - remove
02:18:702 (1,1) - remove
02:20:757 (1) - remove
02:22:813 (1) - remove
02:24:868 (1) - remove
02:26:924 (1) - remove
02:28:979 (1) - remove
02:31:035 (1) - remove
02:32:405 (1,1) - remove
02:35:146 (1) - remove
02:37:201 (1) - remove
02:39:257 (1) - remove
02:41:312 (1) - remove
02:42:854 (1,1) - remove
02:45:423 (1) - remove
02:47:479 (1) - remove
02:49:534 (1) - remove

--------comboing all fixed---------

Okay, now that we have the basic structure of the song pinned done through the comboing, let's take a look back and look at where I asked you to use the bone pattern. If you count combos by groups of four, you'll realize that the bone pattern is always used on the second of those four new combos. This is because it's how the song is made the structure I asked you to add through the comboing and bone pattern emphasizes it perfectly. Now, if you want to add a specific comboing for it (like make a new combo for each slider of it), you can, and it will still be consistent.

I think I'm going to stop there, that's already a lot of work. I'd have a lot more to say in terms of patterns and rhythm, and I haven't even looked at the other diffs yet, but you can use everything that I said here and apply it to the other diffs. Please do not hesitate to call me back if you want me to mod the rest of it (including patterns and stuff), I will happily do so. Good luck.

dkun wrote:

This will all be carefully watched to ensure that maps with problems are resolved in a timely fashion, and mappers are not left hanging.

Ephemeral wrote:

A map may be unranked by any BAT if there are elements within the map that are of particular concern from either a subjective or objective standpoint.

3483,379.746835443038,3,2,0,100,1,0
20951,588.235294117647,3,2,0,100,1,8
21539,342.583076396026,3,2,0,100,1,8
22566,342.583076396026,3,2,0,100,1,0

popner wrote:

00:24:279 (1) - generally we may think the movement should be the blue path(in the example), but actually not. Consider the direction of previous slider /00:23:937 (7)/, players tend to move in the red path, and then they have problem to move to next slider /00:24:622 (1)/. They will do a quick move (the green path). Quick move + slow down slider = 100.

example

Here comes the solution: Fixed. Hopefully less slider 100s..

SPOILER

00:29:247 (3) - the stanza becomes smooth by moving this note like: I really like it, thanks for such awesome suggestion

SPOILER

00:32:501 (1) - this is just the opposite situation of 00:24:279 (1), so this one is fine c:

00:57:167 (1) - try to change the bending like: hmm I don't think it matters that much due to slider leniency.. although the shape might affect how the players approach it minimally, I like how it is now..

SPOILER

01:25:259 (2) - split it? I'd like to keep it as now. Spliting breaks the tension of the music imo.. sorry.

SPOILER

02:30:007 (1,2) - the flow from (1) to (2) is really broken. This is better: hmm. I guess this depends on the player, but I like the cross-criss movement, which elicits dynamic feeling.

SPOILER

Konei wrote:

02:28:979 (4) - Ending of this Slider sounds badly overmapped, if you want to do this for the emphasis, I'd rather make the end quiet.
Good catch~ Fixed!

Good luck on your way!

Storyboard is awesome too!

Xyridian wrote:

some of the notes in the broccoly diff seem, i don't know how to put it... accidental? they just feel a little overmapped to me, and with a fresh bubble, i'd rather these potential inconsistencies get noticed. i don't want to be a pain, but i'm just curious at to your intent with some of them as the general map is really well done.

SPOILER

• 00:18:862 (6) i simply don't hear anything.
  00:56:995 (6) this circle just seems really unnecessary. it feels as if it is present only for difficulty, as i don't hear anything that would express an intent to map this beat. anyway, adding little pauses in your map that compliment the pauses in the music emphasize how the music isn't entirely monotonous, as well as expressing the uniqueness of your slow sliders and long jumps. The circle serves to reestablish and keep the consistent rhythm to prepare for the slowdown after the fast repeat slider, which could cloud the original rhythm. Adding little pauses is a good idea, but I actually did throughout the map like you said, in 01:14:981 (4,5,6) / 00:42:779 (7,6,5,2) / etc..
  01:21:661 (8) this is pretty much the same, but this circle breaks my cursor's flow much more irrationally. Same reason as above, and there's actually a musical context if you hear more carefully.. I understand that if this was hard diff or under, that note wouldn't make sense, but in insane diffs or above I think things like that are fine imo.. To add, if I were to delete that note, the effect and the emphasis of the slowdown would much more be less than it conveyed originally.. plus, the flow isn't that bad either, at least to me and to the testplayers i've seen so far
  01:33:309 (4) similar, but it doesn't break flow, and instead helps stay on beat. yes, helps staying on beat, that is the same reason for 00:18:862 (6)
  02:19:215 (7) i just don't see the point to this. it could play well, but not in this map at this time (right before another slowdown). The point is to induce a larger and more dynamic cursor movement in order to express the excitement of the kiai. (but yeah I actually reduced the distance after getting mods from others.) Also, this time it actually has musical context to put a circle.

of course, i love this map, but i'm just curious, as well as want to see it become the best it can be! Hey Thanks a lot, although I'm pretty much set to keep it the way as it is now... i'm sorry if you're disappointed.. I will refer to it in future mapping tho

Zero__wind wrote:

nice to see this rebubbled fast
btw, 01:25:943 - such a lonely clap `w`

Broccoly wrote:

Re-Thanks!! haha

HabiHolic wrote:

Congratz!

리랭 축하드려요!!!

Nazalion wrote:

Gratz Broc

I hope u made raujika map again

Frobe wrote:

벌써 랭크맵 3개시넹

ㅊㅋㅊㅋ

Amamiya Yuko wrote:

congrats for reranked!