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Stacking the Deck - (Game Over - Town Win)

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Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue
well I had more luck than pizzicato in his first game \:D/

though I would argue that the information "who are the town PRs?" is much much more valuable for scum than the information town gets.

scum, wih their knowledge of how many PRs there are in the game, could easily screw us over if we don't have the maximum amount of PRs, they could easily fakeclaim PR and get away with it. all in all, scum has the tactical advantage here, especially if they didn't chose 3 additional advantages and town really only has 2-4 PRs.

of course, if scume plays dumb and we somehow reach more than 5 PRs, then it would help us. but how likely is that in all honesty?
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue
EBWOP: going by my train of thought, we actually don't gain any sure information, while mafia does. so this really is a dumb idea.
Jinxy
2,777 posts
Joined February 2009
Jinxy

Tanzklaue wrote:

wscum, wih their knowledge of how many PRs there are in the game, could easily screw us over if we don't have the maximum amount of PRs, they could easily fakeclaim PR and get away with it.

NoHitter wrote:

Scum that skews numbers will just be a target when they don't die after all PRs die. Incidentally scum can only INCREASE the number of "confirmed" PRs which will make us play more cautiously.
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue
if all PRs are dead, it's probably to late for town to win anyway.

like I said, I don't think that this plan is healthy for anybody except scum.
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
I have faith in town to get scum before all PRs die!
rEdo
809 posts
Joined November 2008
rEdo
keep in mind that the scum themselves could be suggesting this in order to receive information, and that whole "let's claim who has them PRs" thing could be just a bait for us to bite. I wouldn't share such information with everybody else while we've got threats in.
fartownik
2,189 posts
Joined December 2008
fartownik

NoHitter wrote:

OK guys everyone massclaim whether you're PR or not now.
We're doing this Two style. (If you're new and don't get it, then go read other games where Two participated.)
Would you mind sending an example of the game where Two used it? Not willing to dig in threads containing 80~ pages looking for a single post.

I'm not exactly sure about this, but some already posted their role so it can't be undone.

I'm a PR.
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
Most game with Two, he asks for mass roleclaim immediately.
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull

rEdo wrote:

keep in mind that the scum themselves could be suggesting this in order to receive information, and that whole "let's claim who has them PRs" thing could be just a bait for us to bite. I wouldn't share such information with everybody else while we've got threats in.

The thing is that, if we claim if we are PR or not, it gives us an idea of what scum might have chosen for their roles and tells us if they chose any extra power. What Jinxyjem convinced me. We can either play with information by revealing us. Or play with no information. Scum has advantage in both scenarios, but I think telling the information early on gives us a bit of a better chance against scum.
fartownik
2,189 posts
Joined December 2008
fartownik
Well, it will be most effective when everyone says the truth, which I doubt would happen. Mafia might lie to manipulate the game, but the more important is whether everyone from Town says the truth. If not then we will be playing a 'closed cards' game in the next days with unfull information. However, liars can be found in the next days, but it will be a bit of a tough task.
Haneii
1,203 posts
Joined November 2009
Haneii

Tanzklaue wrote:

don't think that this plan is healthy for anybody except scum.
- I agree!

I can't see how information like how many PR's are in town and who they might be would be helpful to town...or at least in this moment of time. How would this info help us make a decision for D1? However, for mafia, it's full of advantages. They can plan out their Nights more effectively by targeting Power Roles (and ,assuming the possibility of a role cop, get even more info on roles, putting town at even more of a disadvantage).

In comparison, town seems to get nothing! Like fartowink just mentioned, everyone might not tell the truth and who really believes mafia's going to tell truth? The information from this kind of mass claims doesn't give us info to better spot mafia, won't tell us how many mafia PR are in this game (unless everyone including mafia tells the truth), and doesn't help in making our decision to lynch for D1. I think we would have been better off with using the info from the events of the N1, for now.

So why mass claim if you have PR or not? Someone please show me how this helps town (Especially on D1 because I sure can't see it).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Raging Bull wrote:

I'm reluctant, but I suppose the way I'm typing gives it away.
How does the way you're typing give anything away? :roll:
Either you want to claim or not - and your reason "oh it's obvious from the way I'm typing that I have a PR so I should claim now" is suspicious.


NoHitter wrote:

Scum that skews numbers will just be a target when they don't die after all PRs die..
If all the PRs die who's going to target them? They'll be in the majority with the most power left D:
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura
Vote Count 1.02

fartownik (1) - Raging Bull
Raging Bull (1) - Hika
Hika (1) - DakeDekaane

Not Voting (9) - fartownik, Irreversible, JInxyjem, NoHitter, Tanzklaue, Haneii, rEdo, Konei, Rantai

With 12 Alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Please let me know if you see any mistakes.

Moderator's Notes: I didnt count the Town Masons in the 2+X possible PRs that I rolled, I added them to spice things up, sorry if that confused you.
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
3,785 posts
Joined June 2009
NoHitter
@ Haneii, Tanz and rEdo

JInxyjem already summarized the possible gains Town will have from massclaiming.

JInxyjem wrote:

So let's assume information is classified as Amount of PRs, Type of PRs, and Who the PRs are.

Without claiming,

Mafia knows
1. Amount of Mafia PRs
2. Type of Mafia PRs
3. Who the Mafia PRs are
4. Amount of Town PRs

Town knows nothing.
___________________________________________________________________________

With claiming,

Mafia knows
1. Amount of Mafia PRs
2. Type of Mafia PRs
3. Who the Mafia PRs are
4. Amount of Town PRs
5. Who the Town PRs are

Town knows
1. Amount of Mafia PRs
2. Amount of Town PRs
3. Who the Town PRs are
___________________________________________________________________________

Well, Town gets 3x the information compared to Mafia and the thing they don't know (exact mafia PRs) doesn't affect them too much, so yeah, I think that's a good tradeoff, personally.
Mod: Can Masons get town PR abilities?
fartownik
2,189 posts
Joined December 2008
fartownik

Sakura wrote:

Moderator's Notes: I didnt count the Town Masons in the 2+X possible PRs that I rolled, I added them to spice things up, sorry if that confused you.
Emm, so it means we have 7 possible PRs for town (including Masons)?
fartownik
2,189 posts
Joined December 2008
fartownik

NoHitter wrote:

Mod: Can Masons get town PR abilities?
I'm no mod, but it states in the Mason's description.
Welcome to Stacking the Deck Player
You are a Town Mason along with your partner Reyalp

You and your partner are both confirmed town to each other.

During the night phases you and your partner may talk in this quicktopic

Despite being already Mason you may or may not receive an additional power after Night 0 ends.

You win when all threats to town are eliminated.
Irreversible
osu! Alumni
4,317 posts
Joined December 2011
Irreversible
What is PR again? i can't fins anything about it.. -feels stupid- xD
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue

NoHitter wrote:

@ Haneii, Tanz and rEdo

JInxyjem already summarized the possible gains Town will have from massclaiming.

JInxyjem wrote:

So let's assume information is classified as Amount of PRs, Type of PRs, and Who the PRs are.

Without claiming,

Mafia knows
1. Amount of Mafia PRs
2. Type of Mafia PRs
3. Who the Mafia PRs are
4. Amount of Town PRs

Town knows nothing.
___________________________________________________________________________

With claiming,

Mafia knows
1. Amount of Mafia PRs
2. Type of Mafia PRs
3. Who the Mafia PRs are
4. Amount of Town PRs
5. Who the Town PRs are

Town knows
1. Amount of Mafia PRs
2. Amount of Town PRs
3. Who the Town PRs are
___________________________________________________________________________

Well, Town gets 3x the information compared to Mafia and the thing they don't know (exact mafia PRs) doesn't affect them too much, so yeah, I think that's a good tradeoff, personally.
Mod: Can Masons get town PR abilities?
and we already clarified that the advantages for scum are a lot bigger than the possible ones for town.

we really get no information out of this, while scum gets a perfect set up for WIFOM and other mindgames. also town doesn't need to know who the PRs are, the only thing we need to know is who is town and who isn't. on the other hand, scum really could and will use the information who the town PRs are.

the possible gains would only be in effect if nobody lies. scum will probably lie, so we can assume that none of the gains for town are actually existent.

this is so antitown, sadly a few already fell for it :/
Haneii
1,203 posts
Joined November 2009
Haneii

JInxyjem wrote:

With claiming

Town knows
1. Amount of Mafia PRs
2. Amount of Town PRs
3. Who the Town PRs are

This is assuming everyone including mafia claims + tells the truth. If not, we won't have the right amount of mafia RPS, Town RPs, and who the Town RPs are! This case (where some town lie, mafia lie, or both) also hurts town more than mafia because the mafia already have quite a bit of info to go by to begin with. They can use what they already have to deduce fake claims, which will get easier for them to do as the game goes on (Town could do this too but with skewed info, a possible traitor, and the possibility of our tracker being killed off because of this role claim, the odds aren't in our favour :/).

Risk>Benefits
Haneii
1,203 posts
Joined November 2009
Haneii
Typos in my earlier post: I wrote RP's instead of PR. Sorry :P
Last edited by Haneii , edited 1 time in total.
Hika
1,553 posts
Joined February 2010
Hika
I'm not a PR

I still don't think it's okay for PR's to be revealing themselves.
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue

Hika wrote:

I'm not a PR

I still don't think it's okay for PR's to be revealing themselves.
then you shouldn't go with the claim. all the people who haven't claimed until now shouldn't claim, so we can reduce the possible damage.
Haneii
1,203 posts
Joined November 2009
Haneii
Omg so sorry! I accidentally edited my post instead of making a new one D:

Sorry D:



what it was before




*cries*
Haneii
1,203 posts
Joined November 2009
Haneii

NoHitter wrote:

JInxyjem already summarized the possible gains Town will have from massclaiming.
Why do you think those points are town gains, NoHitter?
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
3,785 posts
Joined June 2009
NoHitter
Not PR
NoHitter
JInxy
Hika

PR
Raging Bull
Rantai
fartownik

fartownik wrote:

NoHitter wrote:

Mod: Can Masons get town PR abilities?
I'm no mod, but it states in the Mason's description.
Welcome to Stacking the Deck Player
You are a Town Mason along with your partner Reyalp

You and your partner are both confirmed town to each other.

During the night phases you and your partner may talk in this quicktopic

Despite being already Mason you may or may not receive an additional power after Night 0 ends.

You win when all threats to town are eliminated.
Well that sucks. If Masons were also a separate entity, we could essentially have 2 more claimed roles. Actually I have an idea regarding that.

Tanz wrote:

and we already clarified that the advantages for scum are a lot bigger than the possible ones for town.

we really get no information out of this, while scum gets a perfect set up for WIFOM and other mindgames. also town doesn't need to know who the PRs are, the only thing we need to know is who is town and who isn't. on the other hand, scum really could and will use the information who the town PRs are.

the possible gains would only be in effect if nobody lies. scum will probably lie, so we can assume that none of the gains for town are actually existent.

this is so antitown, sadly a few already fell for it :/
Like I said before, scum can only lie by adding more "claimed PRs" to the list. If any case scum tries to hide behind being a PR, we let the PRs all massclaim their roles and lynch between any doubles or suspicious roles.

If scum doesn't choose to hide behind the PR list, we have essentially a list of confirmed townies and we can lynch off the people who claimed non-PR (i.e. the SAFE choice for scum.)

Haneii wrote:

Why do you think those points are town gains, NoHitter?
Specifically the third one: Who the town PRs are. See my explanation above.
Incidentally since the amount of town PRs is essentially proportional to the amount of scum powers, we can also determine how much power scum has.
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
3,785 posts
Joined June 2009
NoHitter
EBWOP:
Here's the plan I thought of:
1) Massclaim PR or not PR (up to 5 PR)
2) Massclaim Masonship (up to 2 confirmed)
3) Massclaim PR roles themselves and lynch between doubles or suspicious roles (out of place PRs, or very "convenient" PRs)
4) Lynch the rest of the non-PRs

The way I see it chances are, the Masons won't all have the power roles town gains, so there is the fact that Mafia will have to choose between the PRs or confirmed Masons. If Mafia choose to kill off PRs instead of the Masons, we have confirmed town. If it's the other way around, they risk being targeted by the abilities and outed.
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue
nohitter, could you tell us how we should manage to find out if scum skewed the claim or not?

I mean, we can't know if scum skewed it. as long as we don't know this, mass claiming the actual PR is even worse, since then scum could pick out all the roles they want to have out of the way. basically, our PRs would've to check each other to look for possible scum. important night actions get wasted by this. and scum doesn't even have to kill the PRs at all. they could take out vanilla townies as long as the PRs try to find out if there is a liar amongst them.

in any possible scenario that I can see atm, scum just gets a huge advantage by doing this. one of the actual advantages of town is that the mafia doesn't know who out PRs are, so they have to find that out through deduction. with mass claiming all the PRs, mafia doesn't have to do that.

I really don't see any reason for town to do this, aside from hoping that everyone is honest, even scum, and that scenario is the least likely. having only that small of a chance of getting town an actual advantage, but giving scum basically something ranging from 1-2 guaranteed snipes to straight up a free win in reverse, this is just unjustifiable.

this is day one, of course, and not everyone posted their opinion. but at this point, you and jinxyjem are really suspicious.
Haneii
1,203 posts
Joined November 2009
Haneii

NoHitter wrote:

Like I said before, scum can only lie by adding more "claimed PRs" to the list.
That isn't the only lie they can make. They can say they don't have a power role when they do.


NoHitter wrote:

we can lynch off the people who claimed non-PR (i.e. the SAFE choice for scum.)
Why would that be a safe choice for scum? (I ask the question in the assumption you mean it's safe for scum to hide by claiming non-PR. I don't know if it's just me or the sentence was ambiguous but I first read that as you addressing scum directly and letting them know that lynching non-PR during the day is their safest choice)


Also, you claimed non-PR. If you're town why do you think it would be a good idea to start lynching non-PR?


NoHitter wrote:

Here's the plan I thought of:
1) Massclaim PR or not PR (up to 5 PR)
2) Massclaim Masonship (up to 2 confirmed)
3) Massclaim PR roles themselves and lynch between doubles or suspicious roles (out of place PRs, or very "convenient" PRs)
4) Lynch the rest of the non-PRs
Please explain how each plan will help? Also are you suggesting we do all 4 (it seems like that but 3 makes it sound like they're all separate options).


NoHitter wrote:

The way I see it chances are, the Masons won't all have the power roles town gains, so there is the fact that Mafia will have to choose between the PRs or confirmed Masons. If Mafia choose to kill off PRs instead of the Masons, we have confirmed town. If it's the other way around, they risk being targeted by the abilities and outed.
How do you know both Mason's won't have PRs?
@ Your second scenario: Yeah, mafia risk being targeted by the abilities and outed but it still might take us time to out them, and by that time they'll have enough info and power to wipe the rest of us out...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Tanzklaue wrote:

I really don't see any reason for town to do this, aside from hoping that everyone is honest, even scum, and that scenario is the least likely. having only that small of a chance of getting town an actual advantage, but giving scum basically something ranging from 1-2 guaranteed snipes to straight up a free win in reverse, this is just unjustifiable.
This is just it. Yes, town get's info but in return we give mafia an easy win? It's like the people pushing this plan don't want to acknowledge just how much mafia will gain from this decision...
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
3,785 posts
Joined June 2009
NoHitter
You guys are overexaggerating power roles vs the amount of information we get. Keeping power roles alive is a good thing, yes, but if we can manage to out mafia through traditional scumhunting all the same, it doesn't make any difference.

Tanz wrote:

nohitter, could you tell us how we should manage to find out if scum skewed the claim or not?
The thing is here is that I assume that scum does not know what PRs town has in the first place. Assuming scum claims PR: Even if you consider the ones I said were probable i.e. Tracker and Vig, it would be suspicious if we suddenly get doubles of every role, wouldn't it? Chances are one of those are scum.

If scum tries to lie and try claiming another role, there's also a good chance that they will pick either a double or have to risk with an "odd one out" or "very convenient" role. Those claims are also suspicious and warrants a vote.

Tanz wrote:

I really don't see any reason for town to do this, aside from hoping that everyone is honest, even scum, and that scenario is the least likely. having only that small of a chance of getting town an actual advantage, but giving scum basically something ranging from 1-2 guaranteed snipes to straight up a free win in reverse, this is just unjustifiable.
Even if you give Mafia free "snipes" at our PRs, if we lynch them in return, it will still be in our benefit.

Haneii wrote:

NoHitter wrote:

Like I said before, scum can only lie by adding more "claimed PRs" to the list.
That isn't the only lie they can make. They can say they don't have a power role when they do.
That's why we only lynch suspicious PRs. After we lynch them, we lynch the non-PRs based on how scummy they are.


Haneii wrote:

NoHitter wrote:

we can lynch off the people who claimed non-PR (i.e. the SAFE choice for scum.)
Why would that be a safe choice for scum? (I ask the question in the assumption you mean it's safe for scum to hide by claiming non-PR. I don't know if it's just me or the sentence was ambiguous but I first read that as you addressing scum directly and letting them know that lynching non-PR during the day is their safest choice)
Ahh excuse me for my ambiguous wording. I meant that the "safe choice" for scum would usually be claiming non-PR. From my experience as a player, whenever the massclaim comes, scum does either of two things: claim a PR and risk it, OR claim Vanilla Townie (aka non-PR) and hide amongst the majority of the VTs since there are more VTs. The less riskier and safer choice then would be hiding amongst the VTs.

Haneii wrote:

Also, you claimed non-PR. If you're town why do you think it would be a good idea to start lynching non-PR?
I explained it above. After you lynch of the suspicious PRs, the remaining mafia will have to be amongst the non-PRs.

Haneii wrote:

NoHitter wrote:

Here's the plan I thought of:
1) Massclaim PR or not PR (up to 5 PR)
2) Massclaim Masonship (up to 2 confirmed)
3) Massclaim PR roles themselves and lynch between doubles or suspicious roles (out of place PRs, or very "convenient" PRs)
4) Lynch the rest of the non-PRs
Please explain how each plan will help? Also are you suggesting we do all 4 (it seems like that but 3 makes it sound like they're all separate options).
1) Massclaim PR or not PR -> The moment scum claims PR, they can't chicken out of it. It was supposed to be some sort of trap until you had me explain it all.
2) Massclaim Masonship -> Allows for two confirmed townies. If we're lucky these two masons or at least one of them will NOT be power roles. That way mafia will have to choose between hitting power roles or confirmed townies. (Those who claim mason are HIGHLY likely to be town)
3) Massclaim PR roles.... -> I explained this earlier.
4) Lynch the rest of non-PRs -> That's because the remaining Mafia are hiding amongst the non-PRs.

Haneii wrote:

NoHitter wrote:

The way I see it chances are, the Masons won't all have the power roles town gains, so there is the fact that Mafia will have to choose between the PRs or confirmed Masons. If Mafia choose to kill off PRs instead of the Masons, we have confirmed town. If it's the other way around, they risk being targeted by the abilities and outed.
How do you know both Mason's won't have PRs?
I don't know if both Masons don't have PR's, but it's a risk I'm willing to take to win.

Haneii wrote:

@ Your second scenario: Yeah, mafia risk being targeted by the abilities and outed but it still might take us time to out them, and by that time they'll have enough info and power to wipe the rest of us out...
I disagree. Like I said earlier, you're betting too much on the importance of PRs as opposed to how the plan can out mafia. It doesn't matter if the PRs die if we win.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura
Vote Count 1.03

fartownik (1) - Raging Bull
Raging Bull (1) - Hika
Hika (1) - DakeDekaane

Not Voting (9) - fartownik, Irreversible, JInxyjem, NoHitter, Tanzklaue, Haneii, rEdo, Konei, Rantai

With 12 Alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Please let me know if you see any mistakes
DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
DakeDekaane
But in the worst case? what if we have a very few PR, like the 3 that have claimed? it could be easy for scum shoot any of them and basically we can't afford that risk, implying that there are basic and essential roles like Doc/Cop there. That's what I'd suggest not to do the third point in your plan NH, it's true we can get scum liars there, but at the same time, we'd be giving scum a huge advantage, they won't stop themselves if they can take down any dangerous PR for them, what do we get in return?

It's true that scum will be likely hidden as "non-PR", but still we could have town PRs protecting themselves from scum eyes by claiming they're not PR.

btw, sadly, but I'm not a PR.

And
Unvote
Keeping our RVs is not good when we get into the serious stuff.
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue

NoHitter wrote:

:?

Tanz wrote:

nohitter, could you tell us how we should manage to find out if scum skewed the claim or not?
The thing is here is that I assume that scum does not know what PRs town has in the first place. Assuming scum claims PR: Even if you consider the ones I said were probable i.e. Tracker and Vig, it would be suspicious if we suddenly get doubles of every role, wouldn't it? Chances are one of those are scum.

If scum tries to lie and try claiming another role, there's also a good chance that they will pick either a double or have to risk with an "odd one out" or "very convenient" role. Those claims are also suspicious and warrants a vote.
you misunderstood my question. I wanted to know how we would know if the claim is skewed without claiming PRs. because that's impossible, and claiming PRs just to find out if something is skewed is just dumb.

you suggest doing something super risky, on day one, without any reason to directly bit everything on one card. this is just ridiculous, your reasoning of they-shoot-us-to-death-but-in-the-optimum-case-we-can-lynch-them-faster-than-they-kill-us sounds like a really bad justification for this.

also, town needs PRs more than mafia does. mafia can win a game easily without PRs. town normally can't. so losing PRs for town is something major, while for mafia it isn't too much of a deal.

all in all, your reasoning just doesn't make sense, and there is nothing that justifies such risks this early in the game.
Irreversible
osu! Alumni
4,317 posts
Joined December 2011
Irreversible
I have no PR. just wanted to throw that in since i didn't know it until now orz
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
3,785 posts
Joined June 2009
NoHitter

Tanz wrote:

you misunderstood my question. I wanted to know how we would know if the claim is skewed without claiming PRs. because that's impossible, and claiming PRs just to find out if something is skewed is just dumb.
You can't know if the claim is skewed with "I am a PR or I am not a PR" alone unless more than five people claim PR, but THAT'S NOT THE POINT:
You SHOULD have the PRs specifically claim their role to find skewed claims to lynch.
A skewed claim = potential mafia to lynch. Essentially by rooting out the skewed claims, you lynch mafia.

Tanz wrote:

also, town needs PRs more than mafia does. mafia can win a game easily without PRs. town normally can't. so losing PRs for town is something major, while for mafia it isn't too much of a deal.
You're forgetting that Town will also get something from this: CONFIRMED TOWNIES aka people who are sure to be not mafia.
Among the confirmed town and PRs, we have enough information such that chances are, we lynch the right people.

Dake wrote:

But in the worst case? what if we have a very few PR, like the 3 that have claimed? it could be easy for scum shoot any of them and basically we can't afford that risk, implying that there are basic and essential roles like Doc/Cop there. That's what I'd suggest not to do the third point in your plan NH, it's true we can get scum liars there, but at the same time, we'd be giving scum a huge advantage, they won't stop themselves if they can take down any dangerous PR for them, what do we get in return?
At the very least we have three PRs. In that case, the Masons should claim.
Let's assume all mafia claimed non-PR, worst case scenario we have only 3 confirmed townies in the form of the PRs (if all PR = Mason); best scenario we have 5 confirmed townies; 3 PR, 2 mason.
Given our 9 - 3 setup and worst case scenario, the three confirmed town will allow us a 33 - 66 chance to lynch scum. (3 confirmed, 3 scum, 6 unknown) 1/3 is pretty good odds considering a cop will only have a 1/10 chance of finding mafia.
If we mislynch and assuming scum kills one of the confirmed, that will give us (2 confirmed, 3 scum, 5 unknown) or 3/8 chance of finding mafia.

IMO increasing the chance to lynch Mafia instead of relying on PRs is better.

Dake wrote:

It's true that scum will be likely hidden as "non-PR", but still we could have town PRs protecting themselves from scum eyes by claiming they're not PR.
This plan needs the cooperation of the town and will have them have to tell the truth.
Irreversible
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4,317 posts
Joined December 2011
Irreversible

NoHitter wrote:

Dake wrote:

It's true that scum will be likely hidden as "non-PR", but still we could have town PRs protecting themselves from scum eyes by claiming they're not PR.
This plan needs the cooperation of the town and will have them have to tell the truth.
Why should town lie to get suspicious or what? I don't get that actually, ..
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
Will read/post at work.
DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
DakeDekaane
I don't like to rely on probability too much ;~; but I agree that there's a pretty high number for D1, I hope we can discuss enough to reach an agreement with everybody.

Irreversible wrote:

Why should town lie to get suspicious or what? I don't get that actually, ..
To escape the mafia's eyes I think.
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
God damn, I cannot read anyone in this discussion right here. Both of you guys bring up good point, but I do like what NoHitter says. We can narrow down the list from potential lynches each day depending on what mafia claimed and who is still alive. I think with how much people already claimed, it's perhaps best to just tell what you guys are. Perhaps you think I'm scummy for this, but more than half already risked our roles, best to have everyone do it so we can get a better list of people.


Add ISO too


Unvote
Jinxy
2,777 posts
Joined February 2009
Jinxy
Well, NH basically answered everything, so I don't really have much to add, but there's one part I think NH didn't really answer, so:

Haneii wrote:

NoHitter wrote:

Like I said before, scum can only lie by adding more "claimed PRs" to the list.
That isn't the only lie they can make. They can say they don't have a power role when they do.
For the second lie, it does not affect anything because we're using the amount of Town power roles to infer the amount of Scum power roles. (Scum PRs = Town - 2).

Also, I agree with RB's post above. Stopping the massclaim halfway does not "reduce the possible damage" as said by Tanz. By stopping, we don't get the information we set out to get from the massclaim (Amount of Town and Scum PRs), while mafia has partially received information on who the Town PRs are, already.
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
3,785 posts
Joined June 2009
NoHitter
Four days before the deadline.
I think everyone should claim now as we need to build up the specifics of the plan soon.

Not PR
NoHitter
JInxyjem
Hika
DakeDekaane
Irreversible

PR
Raging Bull
Rantai
fartownik
fartownik
2,189 posts
Joined December 2008
fartownik
I agree with RB and JInx here. If we stop claiming right now it will only cause confusion and more WIFOM in the next days, basically harming town even more. NH already explained a lot here and I will trust him for this one. I don't see a reason (a pro-town one) for the remaining people not to claim in this very moment.
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue
fine.

I have no PR
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue
I still think that the mass claim is super anti town, though. but by now the damage is already too big and not claiming would be like lynching yourself.
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
Konei, rEdo, Haneii. Your turn.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura
Vote Count 1.04

Raging Bull (1) - Hika

Not Voting (11) - fartownik, Irreversible, JInxyjem, NoHitter, Tanzklaue, Haneii, rEdo, Konei, Rantai, DakeDekaane, Raging Bull

With 12 Alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Please let me know if you see any mistakes.

Moderator's Notes: The ISOs for this game have been added
Haneii
1,203 posts
Joined November 2009
Haneii

Tanzklaue wrote:

this is just ridiculous, your reasoning of they-shoot-us-to-death-but-in-the-optimum-case-we-can-lynch-them-faster-than-they-kill-us sounds like a really bad justification for this.
You just described the game of mafia. He suggested we use the info from the claims towards traditional scumhunting and you call it ridiculous because it'll play out like a mafia game?


Tanzklaue wrote:

I still think that the mass claim is super anti town, though. but by now the damage is already too big and not claiming would be like lynching yourself.
*looks through thread to see which post might have given you this idea/made you feel threatened*
*comes up empty*
Okay.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for answering all my questions, NoHitter

As for me: I am not a PR
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue

Haneii wrote:

Tanzklaue wrote:

this is just ridiculous, your reasoning of they-shoot-us-to-death-but-in-the-optimum-case-we-can-lynch-them-faster-than-they-kill-us sounds like a really bad justification for this.
You just described the game of mafia. He suggested we use the info from the claims towards traditional scumhunting and you call it ridiculous because it'll play out like a mafia game?
sorry for the bad wording, what I meant is that his (nohitters) exact plan only would work in the optimum case (and maybe one or two others), while in every other scenario scum just playing shooting gallery and town not having enough clues/time to find clues that lead to the mafia.


Haneii wrote:

Tanzklaue wrote:

I still think that the mass claim is super anti town, though. but by now the damage is already too big and not claiming would be like lynching yourself.
*looks through thread to see which post might have given you this idea/made you feel threatened*
*comes up empty*
Okay.

fartownik wrote:

I agree with RB and JInx here. If we stop claiming right now it will only cause confusion and more WIFOM in the next days, basically harming town even more. NH already explained a lot here and I will trust him for this one. I don't see a reason (a pro-town one) for the remaining people not to claim in this very moment.
basically this. the massclaim advanced too far, scum already got advantages. our only hope is to deal with the situation we got into now, and hope we somehow can get something out of it for town. a full massclaim is more salvageable than a 3/4 massclaim.
rEdo
809 posts
Joined November 2008
rEdo
I'm not a PR.

Still, I completely dislike the idea of revealing our powers to the scum. If we won't lynch them early enough, then that's gonna leave us with nothing and we'll have to blindly guess (like we would anyway), whereas the scum will have us exposed and succesively take down one by one.

not to mention that this whole claiming thing could be mafia's conspiration
Hika
1,553 posts
Joined February 2010
Hika
Unvote

Eh.
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
[b:03945]Vote:Konei[/b:03945]
Haneii
1,203 posts
Joined November 2009
Haneii
Not PR
NoHitter
JInxyjem
Hika
DakeDekaane
Irreversible
Tanzklaue
Haneii
rEdo


PR
Raging Bull
Rantai
fartownik


If I understood right, if it remains at 3 PR our next plan of action is to get the masons to claim?

Mod: Can you prod Konei, please
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Tanzklaue wrote:

Haneii wrote:
Tanzklaue wrote:
I still think that the mass claim is super anti town, though. but by now the damage is already too big and not claiming would be like lynching yourself.


*looks through thread to see which post might have given you this idea/made you feel threatened*
*comes up empty*
Okay.


fartownik wrote:
I agree with RB and JInx here. If we stop claiming right now it will only cause confusion and more WIFOM in the next days, basically harming town even more. NH already explained a lot here and I will trust him for this one. I don't see a reason (a pro-town one) for the remaining people not to claim in this very moment.

basically this. the massclaim advanced too far, scum already got advantages. our only hope is to deal with the situation we got into now, and hope we somehow can get something out of it for town. a full massclaim is more salvageable than a 3/4 massclaim.
I still find it odd that you went first went with "I'm going to claim because if I don't I'll get lynched" instead of "I agree with Fartownik, Jinx, and RB - it's too late and we should all claim"
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
Vote:Konei

The hell just happened.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura
Konei has been prodded
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue
haneii, I'm new to all this mafia business, so it should be natural that I will make some dumb mistakes. sorry :c

on the other hand, even if konei flips PR, the chance of scum skewing numbers should be pretty low. if konei flips no PR, the chance of skewed numbers is basically 0, since I don't think that scum would take such risks without having power roles to back them up, and also having to fight the high probability of getting caught by investigative roles (1/3 as opposed to 1/4 or 1/5).

assuming that town actually said the truth. which we can't be sure of.
Rantai
1,000 posts
Joined July 2010
Rantai
Wait, Masons don't count as a PR?

Learnt something new today.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura

Rantai wrote:

Wait, Masons don't count as a PR?

Learnt something new today.
They do, i'm just not counting them as the town starting PRs.
Haneii
1,203 posts
Joined November 2009
Haneii

Rantai wrote:

Wait, Masons don't count as a PR?

Learnt something new today.
They are, but in the case that we only have 3 people claiming PRs the Masons should claim (I'm assuming they'd be the 2 out of the 3 people who claimed PR). They should also let us know if they have another PR along with being Masons.

Still waiting on Konei, though (I keep misspelling your name as Koneii XD)
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull

Sakura wrote:

Rantai wrote:

Wait, Masons don't count as a PR?

Learnt something new today.
They do, i'm just not counting them as the town starting PRs.

Elaborate more. So if scum picks no power, we only have 2 PR + 2 mason, assuming mason didnt get a PR? Mason so OP
Rantai
1,000 posts
Joined July 2010
Rantai
Oh ok, I thought they were, got confused x.x
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura
Konei has requested replacement
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
3,785 posts
Joined June 2009
NoHitter
Mod: Can we request an extension when replacement arrives?
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura

NoHitter wrote:

Mod: Can we request an extension when replacement arrives?
Yes, i was planning on extending it when replacement arrives anyway.
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
It would help if he posted before replacement :(
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura
Ok here's my decission, i'm going to extend the deadline right now by 24 hours, if before then a replacement is found then the deadline may be further extended by another 24-48 hours depending on how close it is to deadline to give the replacement some time to read over the thread, otherwise the day will end then. Countdowns and deadlines will be updated once i get home (at work atm)
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue

Raging Bull wrote:

It would help if he posted before replacement :(
he was too busy posting in unfunny troll map threads and congratulating mappers for their ranked maps. no way could he write a simple "I am a PR/not a PR" here in the thread.

well, without konei's claim, we actually can't do all too much I guess.
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
God, can we just lynch Konei so the game won't be extended?
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue
er, no?

why would you want to end day 1 now? we have to wait for the replacement to claim at least before day 1 can find a satisfactory end.
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
Because at the rate how mafia games are. It is rare to find a replacement.
DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
DakeDekaane
We have still 4 days, RB, and the game has just begun, so it's not that hard to catch up what's happening, there's no point in ending the day in the actual situation, town will get greatly hurt if we finish the day like this . I was about to suggest a Konei policy lynch, but as he asked for replacement, I think we should wait a bit more, not mentioning that if he's a PR/Mason we're possibly done.

It's true we're stuck at this point, but I'm pretty sure we can still deal with this and think what can we do in case a replacement doesn't come.
Rantai
1,000 posts
Joined July 2010
Rantai
Well to keep the ball rolling and the fact I don't think this will actually affect me/replacement all that much;

Roleclaim: Mason

I'm going to confirm Konei as my other Mason here.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura
BRBP Replaces Konei, effective immediately.
Haneii
1,203 posts
Joined November 2009
Haneii
BRBP, do you have another power role besides Mason?
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura
If the replacement requests it, deadline may be extended by up to 2 more days.

Vote Count 1.05

BRBP (1) - Raging Bull

Not Voting (11) - fartownik, Irreversible, JInxyjem, NoHitter, Tanzklaue, Haneii, rEdo, BRBP, Rantai, DakeDekaane, Hika

With 12 Alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Please let me know if you see any mistakes.
VoidnOwO
1,256 posts
Joined August 2012
VoidnOwO
:)
Last edited by VoidnOwO , edited 1 time in total.
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
unvote
VoidnOwO
1,256 posts
Joined August 2012
VoidnOwO
:)
Last edited by VoidnOwO , edited 1 time in total.
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
3,785 posts
Joined June 2009
NoHitter
Not PR
NoHitter
JInxyjem
Hika
DakeDekaane
Irreversible
Haneii
Tanzklaue

PR
Raging Bull
Rantai
fartownik
BRBP

All PRs should claim now. I suggest we do it in the order: fartownik -> Raging Bull -> Rantai or BRBP
The ones who claimed later on may have had time to think and "fake" their claim. Rantai and BRBP are Mason's though and are practically confirmed town.
Hika
1,553 posts
Joined February 2010
Hika
Taking time to read this all later because life.

I think I unvoted, I hope.
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
3,785 posts
Joined June 2009
NoHitter
Not PR
NoHitter
JInxyjem
Hika
DakeDekaane
Irreversible
Haneii
Tanzklaue
rEdo

PR
Raging Bull
Rantai
fartownik
BRBP

Forgot to add rEdo to list of non-PR
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
I guess scum chose 1 power ifi read right
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue

Raging Bull wrote:

I guess scum chose 1 power ifi read right
2, if they didn't scew the numbers. which i highly doubt, because scewing numbers in that kind of situation isn't smart.
VoidnOwO
1,256 posts
Joined August 2012
VoidnOwO
:)
Last edited by VoidnOwO , edited 1 time in total.
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue
that whole masons thing is just confusing as hell x.x

the question is: how useful would be a fullclaim from the PRs? the probability of a skewed massclaim is low, and I think we shouldn't draw bigger (or to word it better: specific) targets on our PRs. I don't think we need more information about what our PRs are. they will work more efficiently if they are not widely known.
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
At this rate, either fart or I will die N1 anyways since I don't think mafia needs to kill masons.
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue
say thanks to nohitter, according to whom you're totally expandable.
fartownik
2,189 posts
Joined December 2008
fartownik
Em, I think you guys forgot something. Sakura stated before that there's 2 Masons + 2 Additional PRs for Town (if I understood that correctly). The masons don't count as the 2 Additional PRs. This means that Mafia didn't pick anything for themselves (?), because if they did we'd have 1, 2 or 3 more additional PRs, unless one of the Masons is also a PR.

Can anyone confirm this?
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue
at least BRBP said that he has an additional PR (I believe? sorry if I misread that).

masons can also have additional PRs. so if rantai has an additional PR, then scum chose 2 advantages. probably 2 PRs, since daychat with 2 people isn't too useful (I don't know since I have no experience :/), and recruiting the traitor isn't a good enough trade for an additional PR in my opinion (since a goon doesn't have that many perks more than a traitor anyway).

so I would assume that we have a set up of 1-2 PR mafias with one traitor amongst us.
Irreversible
osu! Alumni
4,317 posts
Joined December 2011
Irreversible
Vote: NoHitter
fartownik
2,189 posts
Joined December 2008
fartownik

Tanzklaue wrote:

at least BRBP said that he has an additional PR (I believe? sorry if I misread that).

masons can also have additional PRs. so if rantai has an additional PR, then scum chose 2 advantages. probably 2 PRs, since daychat with 2 people isn't too useful (I don't know since I have no experience :/), and recruiting the traitor isn't a good enough trade for an additional PR in my opinion (since a goon doesn't have that many perks more than a traitor anyway).

so I would assume that we have a set up of 1-2 PR mafias with one traitor amongst us.
I understood it more like BRBP confirmed being Mason, but I can be wrong.

BRBP would you elaborate?
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura
Vote Count 1.06

NoHitter (1) - Irreversible

Not Voting (11) - fartownik, JInxyjem, NoHitter, Tanzklaue, Haneii, rEdo, BRBP, Rantai, DakeDekaane, Hika

With 12 Alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Please let me know if you see any mistakes.
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
He said he is also a PR
VoidnOwO
1,256 posts
Joined August 2012
VoidnOwO
:)
Last edited by VoidnOwO , edited 1 time in total.
DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
DakeDekaane
It seems Irre likes to grab attention too much, why did you vote NH?

Well, it seems we only have to wait for all of PRs claim, either we could have a scum in the claimed PRs or all scum hidden in the VT, if it's the last I have to agree a bit with Tanzklaue, tho they may have daychat as it'd be useful as they could discuss in our back right now, but given the situation it's more likely to they could have 2 PR and Traitor is more likely to be in the crowd, that'd be the most difficult to find as a Cop can't find it, unless scum make a bad move and end up killing it.
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
Waiting for fart to claim first :(
Haneii
1,203 posts
Joined November 2009
Haneii

DakeDekaane wrote:

tho they may have daychat as it'd be useful as they could discuss in our back right now, but given the situation it's more likely to they could have 2 PR and Traitor is more likely to be in the crowd,
Just to let you know, DakeDekaane, the mafia could have 2 PR, daychat, and the traitor. The traitor would always be there (ie:mafia doesn't have to choose/ask for one) unless the mafia chose to recruit him/her into a Goon:

Sakura wrote:

This game will be using the "Stacking the Deck" setup, there will be 3 scum, one of them is a Traitor and they don't know who it is, yet, Mafia may choose up to 3 of the following powers that they want

NoHitter wrote:

Not PR
NoHitter
JInxyjem
Hika
DakeDekaane
Irreversible
Haneii
Tanzklaue
rEdo

PR
Raging Bull
Rantai
fartownik
BRBP
Are we counting Rantai in PR list? Rantai do you have another role besides Mason?

Tanzklaue wrote:

how useful would be a fullclaim from the PRs?
If you're mafia and lie and then someone else claims to have the same role you're caught (or at least quite soon).
fartownik
2,189 posts
Joined December 2008
fartownik
Kay, so if BRBP is a PR too then it gives us 3 PR for town, which means Mafia took 1 option from the list (unless someone from Town lied for some reason). Time for my claim I guess.

Claim: Watcher
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
claim vigilante
Rantai
1,000 posts
Joined July 2010
Rantai
I am a Mason only. No extra roles.

I still counted myself as PR because of mason alone (hence why I got confused before).
VoidnOwO
1,256 posts
Joined August 2012
VoidnOwO
:)
Last edited by VoidnOwO , edited 1 time in total.
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
If you guys want, I can just shoot no hitter instead. Perhaps lynch someone else.
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
3,785 posts
Joined June 2009
NoHitter
I think its safe to say that Mafia is hiding amongst the non-PR claims.
It's only up to us to lynch them one by one.

Actually now that I think of it, BRBP, I don't think you have to claim PR anymore since Rantai confirmed you as Mason.

Vig and Watcher seems to fit well enough with the setup. BRBP is also confirmed town since Rantai and him are Masons.

That's 4 - 3 - 5 (confirmed town - scum - unconfirmed town).
Mason - Rantai
Mason + ??? - BRBP
Watcher - fartownik
Vigilante - Raging Bull

We should lynch one of the 8 unconfirmed now.
NoHitter
Jinxy
Hika
DakeDekaane
Irreversible
Haneii
Tanzklaue
rEdo

Next step is to give your reads on all of the above eight.

Tanz looks like a town read for me. The discussion regarding the entire massclaim strategy seems like a genuine town thing to do. Mafia would more likely keep silent.

Jinxy also looks town for giving what I think is townie advice re: the massclaim strategy.

Hika looks a bit suspicious to me. In the ISO, Hika states that "I still don't think it's okay for PR's to be revealing themselves.". But there was no mention of "I don't want PR's to reveal themselves" prior to that post. Parroting this early in the game?

rEdo also looks a bit suspicous due to the scumpainting in posts.

rEdo wrote:

keep in mind that the scum themselves could be suggesting this in order to receive information, and that whole "let's claim who has them PRs" thing could be just a bait for us to bite. I wouldn't share such information with everybody else while we've got threats in.

rEdo wrote:

not to mention that this whole claiming thing could be mafia's conspiration
The rest feel null to me at the moment.

@Irreversible
Why did you vote me?
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