I really can't understand what is that wrong ... I play your demo just fine
eldnl wrote:
I really can't understand what is that wrong ... I play your demo just fine
You're one of the few players in the game wich can maintain a very good timing.Drafura wrote:
So basically the player tends to try to maintain a mega timing all map long wich sometimes makes him start too soon or too late and the fun is gone fast.
Sorry if I pointed out something well known, I'm not that old into CtB mapping and didn't followed discutions about technical problems in ctb since the hyper update (I just encountered all these issues when I tried to map with this build). But I know this issue was happening in older builds, and gives serious questions about the fix of the hyper trigger distance. I understand frames can bring some irregularities but not that much (only from 1/1 to 1/2 it's almost half a circle ! A frame issue should only affect a bunch of pixels, am I wrong ?).ZHSteven wrote:
I remembered I have proved it long time ago, but whatever..
No personnal opinion here. This section show how the ryuuta slides away when you press a bit too long the key. I used 1/4 hyper cause the effect is greatly increased with fast hyperdashes. On 1/8, 1/16 it's even harder to get the fruit and stand in the same position. I used 3.3 to show a way I've found to give more timing to the player but it breaks the pattern and makes it ugly.ZHSteven wrote:
I think we don't need 3rd section, because this is personal biased. Some people really like this kind of pattern as I know, and they think this not affect their performance at all.
(whispered: I really hate them)
Yes, the second section is a clue of why I think they doesn't need hyperdash cause the frames shouldn't affect that much the ryuuta. First section is a way do to them but you'll need 3 hits starting with an hyperdash. Well, forcing the mapper to use an hyperdash to let him put a hard jump doesn't really make sense.eldnl wrote:
Oh I see, so you can't put hard left-to-right jumps?
I mean, like this map.
If that's the point, then this should be fixed.
That is I talked into one of the Chinese Ctb thread if I am not wrong, but that seems old and out of date since the new hyper systems here. I just want to share something I already known. Apologize about it.Drafura wrote:
Sorry if I pointed out something well known, I'm not that old into CtB mapping and didn't followed discutions about technical problems in ctb since the hyper update (I just encountered all these issues when I tried to map with this build). But I know this issue was happening in older builds, and gives serious questions about the fix of the hyper trigger distance. I understand frames can bring some irregularities but not that much (only from 1/1 to 1/2 it's almost half a circle ! A frame issue should only affect a bunch of pixels, am I wrong ?)..
I think this is speed based. hyperdash ends only when the rhythm is there(kid touch the hole note, I guess), not when you touch the note. If the speed of the jump is too fast, high speed hyperdash will "slip" you away just like your map stats, that is because some little "dash" haven't being used up. When you end the jump at a later timing, I mean just a little late, the extremely high speed will definitely leads you to the wrong place.Drafura wrote:
No personnal opinion here. This section show how the ryuuta slides away when you press a bit too long the key. I used 1/4 hyper cause the effect is greatly increased with fast hyperdashes. On 1/8, 1/16 it's even harder to get the fruit and stand in the same position. I used 3.3 to show a way I've found to give more timing to the player but it breaks the pattern and makes it ugly.
This is not the only hyper-trolling pattern. At the beginning, I was highly against them, think this was broke the flow of the whole map, and should be nuked. But now, since almost everybody like them, I have no ideas already.. After all this should be played by players, not mappers. So I think if this not flood, this will be ok to me.Drafura wrote:
For the personnal preference, the question isn't "Like it or not ?" but "1/4 hypers should be allowed in CtB mapping ?"
I don't see it is too "ugly" in fact.. It is good isnt it? XDDrafura wrote:
If you want to allow them, they need a fix cause they're pretty ugly to map if you wants to keep a decent difficulty.
I put my map for 1/4 jumps so... anyways, you're right, Rainbow Dash map is the perfect example, is not lucky based, nothing is lucky based, but you need to catch the perfect timing to do them.VelperK wrote:
Keep dreaming if you really think peppy is going to care about CTB again. Needless to say about this very thread.
eldnl: Verdisphena's diffs are shit now with this behaviour, so are TAG4. But since this kind of mapping is minority, none cares.
He did a good job in reducing mapping possibilities for CtB I have to admit.
peppy: if you just passed by to the last post of this thread, just fix this kind of patterns and we're ok (I know you won't but just saying <3)
Also, eldnl, your map doesn't have the kind of patterns I just showed above, so it doesn't count. As CtB mappers, we now have to prevent that kind of patterns (and oh boy are we reducing ourselves with that limitation) since they're 100% luck depending, just like the old pixels he wanted to fix.
So basically old pixels were not luck based since you needed to have a perfect timing in order to catch them.eldnl wrote:
I put my map for 1/4 jumps so... anyways, you're right, Rainbow Dash map is the perfect example, is not lucky based, nothing is lucky based, but you need to catch the perfect timing to do them.VelperK wrote:
Keep dreaming if you really think peppy is going to care about CTB again. Needless to say about this very thread.
eldnl: Verdisphena's diffs are shit now with this behaviour, so are TAG4. But since this kind of mapping is minority, none cares.
He did a good job in reducing mapping possibilities for CtB I have to admit.
peppy: if you just passed by to the last post of this thread, just fix this kind of patterns and we're ok (I know you won't but just saying <3)
Also, eldnl, your map doesn't have the kind of patterns I just showed above, so it doesn't count. As CtB mappers, we now have to prevent that kind of patterns (and oh boy are we reducing ourselves with that limitation) since they're 100% luck depending, just like the old pixels he wanted to fix.
You're misunderstanding, pixel jumps were technically impossible to catch, but this kind of jump are technically possible, but hard as hell.VelperK wrote:
So basically old pixels were not luck based since you needed to have a perfect timing in order to catch them.
OK.
They were possible to catch, but only if you were lucky enough. Withouth any tricks whatsoever I was able to catch the 40 combo of Cirno's Perfect Math Class TAG4 MANY times, and I felt that the timing in those ocassions was splendid, not too soon neither too late, but since it was too hard for someone to catch it in a skill based way, a hyperdash was added (and I totally support that). There are hundreds of other examples in which hyperdashes were added in unnecesary places (and i'm not saying I dislike the extra hyperdashes, just stating that they were unnecesary because you didn't need them in order to catch the pixels) because it was "too lucky based". You can't deny this as it's a fact, luck DOES exist here.eldnl wrote:
You're misunderstanding, pixel jumps were technically impossible to catch, but this kind of jump are technically possible, but hard as hell.VelperK wrote:
So basically old pixels were not luck based since you needed to have a perfect timing in order to catch them.
OK.
AgreeVelperK wrote:
We can agree on that both of these situations were/are possible but too luck-based and the later I just stated needs to be fixed ASAP, ok?
This is related to section 3 of the demo map (In boku boku case those are 1/2 due to bpm but it equals 1/4 of most maps with decent bpms) and yes this is a good example of something wich will be used a lot in CtB mapping and is completly ruined by the new hypers. I think these kind of patterns are not meant to be hard in CtB mapping imo they're meant to play with your reading abilities, that's why old hypers fits so well in those situations. They allow you to use patterns wich calls the reading skill of the player without increasing the timing difficulty, it gives coherence and allows you to balance your map as you wish. I want to add that one of my map has been affected by this (Oriens) and I think it is actually the reason why there's not so many FCs/SSs on it (Those 1/4 sliders are too random if you want to keep a good accuracy, so most people get pissed of it and ignore it. Randomly missing droplets or combo isn't fun for anyone and I really didn't designed to be this way when I mapped it).urs4chan wrote:
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/51611 (Diff end's wing) the beggining pattern
Seems this kind of pattern makes me annoyed , cus i've maked simmiliar pattern like that in the past & now it's completely make my old map almost catchable cuz of the hyper changes
My recent mapping experiences with this build shows me that if you want to keep them smooth to play you have to affect the pattern even at a small hyperdash distance, cause when they're integrated in a whole map it's again very different than just showing the case in a demo map.ZHSteven wrote:
I don't see it is too "ugly" in fact.. It is good isnt it? XD
ok back to topic, it is impossible to make this pattern smooth. if you really needs to add this pattern, seriously I think your changes is good, or maybe reduce the hyperdash speed will work.
Yes, for a 140 bpm song they're not so dizzy, do it with +200 bpm songs this will leads the player to countless stupid jumps wich should only call the reading skill of the player not a perfect timing skill.eldnl wrote:
I'm not sure but this is probably an example for a 1/4 jumpy map ... for me, plays very well.
I think the same about those jumps they should be banned from CtB mapping they pretty much makes no sense in term of mapping. Basically you make some hypers followed by a jump and the result for this pattern is that the hardest jump is the non hyper'd one ? And it's actually the way to make the hardest jumps of the game ? This makes no sense, the hardest jump of the game should be doable out of all hyperdash'd pattern in order to permit mappers to balance their maps in term of difficulty. So yes, this will certainly go for an unrankable pattern if the jump is too big and again remove something we could use to make maps.VelperK wrote:
As CtB mappers, we now have to prevent that kind of patterns (and oh boy are we reducing ourselves with that limitation) since they're 100% luck depending, just like the old pixels he wanted to fix.
I sadly know how this is going to lead to nothing, but this discution have to exist at least to inform mappers about those issues, discuss about them and try to find ways to fix by modifying patterns. Plus in a long term if many mappers are having problems with those issues maybe something will change one day.VelperK wrote:
Keep dreaming if you really think peppy is going to care about CTB again. Needless to say about this very thread.
xDDpeppy wrote:
Also avoid the shit statements about me not caring about stuff. Oh wait, this is VelperK. Nevermind.
And what about the second section ? Don't we have a chance here to get more difficult non hypered jumps ? This could counter balance the difficulty (Making hyperdashes easier only focusing in reading skill of the player and normal jumps harder focusing on the timing skill of the player, so mappers can choose on what they want to play on their maps like it was the case.)peppy wrote:
No pattern should be "banned". I don't mind making post-hyperdash more lenient, but this may cause complains about other maps becoming too easy as a result (which was the case during testing).
I would happily test the results of such experimentation in the osu!test build, if you decide to let users see if the changes fit them or not.peppy wrote:
No pattern should be "banned". I don't mind making post-hyperdash more lenient, but this may cause complains about other maps becoming too easy as a result (which was the case during testing).
Also avoid the shit statements about me not caring about stuff. Oh wait, this is VelperK. Nevermind.
I will keep my supporter 'till then.VelperK wrote:
I would happily test the results of such experimentation in the osu!test build, if you decide to let users see if the changes fit them or not.peppy wrote:
No pattern should be "banned". I don't mind making post-hyperdash more lenient, but this may cause complains about other maps becoming too easy as a result (which was the case during testing).
Also avoid the shit statements about me not caring about stuff. Oh wait, this is VelperK. Nevermind.
I'm sure I won't be the only one tho.
/signWasteK wrote:
I would happily test the results of such experimentation in the osu!test build, if you decide to let users see if the changes fit them or not.peppy wrote:
No pattern should be "banned". I don't mind making post-hyperdash more lenient, but this may cause complains about other maps becoming too easy as a result (which was the case during testing).
Also avoid the shit statements about me not caring about stuff. Oh wait, this is VelperK. Nevermind.
I'm sure I won't be the only one tho.